Re: Computers, code and consciousness
On 07 Nov 2013, at 20:48, John Mikes wrote: Bruno, could you kindly tell me how could I find a universal machine? (No joke). I would LOVE to listen to them. John M Right now, you have one in front of you (more exactly: you have one incarnation of it in front of you). Then you have another one in your skull. Then all your cells are such universal machines, although they have been forced to specialized. All human beings are example of universal machine, as humans can easily emulated a universal machine. By listening to me right now, you are listening to such a machine (but logically it makes sense to say that I might be more than that, even assuming comp). All computers, in the usual mundane sense, are universal machine. All GSM are universal machines. The physical universe is also a universal machine. Actually it defines a lot of different universal machines. Fridges, bridges, houses and clocks are not universal machines, although some sophisticated models of them might be. All programming language interpreters are also example of universal machines/numbers. And they all exists in arithmetic together with their executions, (that's a theorem, no need for comp here). Bruno On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 21:31, John Mikes wrote: Bruno wrote No.6: You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. Was it a discovery, or an invention? Is thereO N E discovered machine for studying, or we just imagine how it should behave? There are many universal machine, or universal number, but they are all equivalent (and maximal) in computability and emulability abilities. They are not equivalent in provability and inductive inference abilities, although the correct one will obeys to very general mathematical laws. In fact they all have the same (rich) theologies, and they are testable as the theology contains the physics. So it is fun to listen to them, and compare with what we can observe. Bruno On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 13:48, Roger Clough wrote: Computers, code and consciousness Cumputers cannot simulate human activities or experiences or consciousness because they have to deal in code. Code is not magic, have no inherent intelligence. Computers are not magic, they are just machines. Magic explains even less. Then, the closure of the computable functions for diagonalization introduces the "magic" of self-reference, in the different points of view. Computers can only deal in code, which is impersonal and public. They are noit experiences, but can be descruiptions of experiences, which is not the same thing. Unfortunately, experiences are personal and computers, dealing in code only, have no access to them. They have access to their own code, but they are confronted to Truth, also. They have the same difficulty than us to relate truth and code. Why must I keep explaining this ? You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. That changes everything. The universal machine have a rich theology. Computers deal in code. At some level. Humans too. Cf DNA. People don't At some level. Machines too (cf the machine's first person). If you need to introduce magic, it means you want escape reason, but this can only lead to bad faith, wishful thinking, etc. Computer science shows that there is enough "magic" in reason. No need to introduce it, as this addition might hide the magic which is there. Also, your way of reasoning is invalid? If human can use magic to be conscious, why not machine? You might be underestimating God's power. Bruno Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from i
Re: Computers, code and consciousness
Bruno, could you kindly tell me how could I find a universal machine? (No joke). I would LOVE to listen to them. John M On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 06 Nov 2013, at 21:31, John Mikes wrote: > > Bruno wrote No.6: > *You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. * > Was it a discovery, or an invention? Is thereO N E *discovered*machine > for studying, or we just imagine how it should behave? > > > There are many universal machine, or universal number, but they are all > equivalent (and maximal) in computability and emulability abilities. > They are not equivalent in provability and inductive inference abilities, > although the correct one will obeys to very general mathematical laws. In > fact they all have the same (rich) theologies, and they are testable as the > theology contains the physics. > > So it is fun to listen to them, and compare with what we can observe. > > Bruno > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 06 Nov 2013, at 13:48, Roger Clough wrote: >> >> Computers, code and consciousness >>> >>> Cumputers cannot simulate human activities or experiences >>> or consciousness because they have to deal in code. >>> >>> Code is not magic, have no inherent intelligence. >>> Computers are not magic, they are just machines. >>> >> >> Magic explains even less. >> Then, the closure of the computable functions for diagonalization >> introduces the "magic" of self-reference, in the different points of view. >> >> >> >> >> >>> Computers can only deal in code, which is impersonal and >>> public. They are noit experiences, but can be descruiptions >>> of experiences, which is not the same thing. >>> Unfortunately, experiences are >>> personal and computers, dealing in code only, >>> have no access to them. >>> >> >> They have access to their own code, but they are confronted to Truth, >> also. They have the same difficulty than us to relate truth and code. >> >> >> >> >> >>> Why must I keep explaining this ? >>> >> >> You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. That changes >> everything. The universal machine have a rich theology. >> >> >> >>> Computers deal in code. >>> >> >> At some level. Humans too. Cf DNA. >> >> People don't >>> >> >> At some level. Machines too (cf the machine's first person). >> >> If you need to introduce magic, it means you want escape reason, but this >> can only lead to bad faith, wishful thinking, etc. >> Computer science shows that there is enough "magic" in reason. No need to >> introduce it, as this addition might hide the magic which is there. >> Also, your way of reasoning is invalid? If human can use magic to be >> conscious, why not machine? You might be underestimating God's power. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] >>> See my Leibniz site at >>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this
Re: Computers, code and consciousness
On 06 Nov 2013, at 21:31, John Mikes wrote: Bruno wrote No.6: You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. Was it a discovery, or an invention? Is thereO N E discovered machine for studying, or we just imagine how it should behave? There are many universal machine, or universal number, but they are all equivalent (and maximal) in computability and emulability abilities. They are not equivalent in provability and inductive inference abilities, although the correct one will obeys to very general mathematical laws. In fact they all have the same (rich) theologies, and they are testable as the theology contains the physics. So it is fun to listen to them, and compare with what we can observe. Bruno On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 13:48, Roger Clough wrote: Computers, code and consciousness Cumputers cannot simulate human activities or experiences or consciousness because they have to deal in code. Code is not magic, have no inherent intelligence. Computers are not magic, they are just machines. Magic explains even less. Then, the closure of the computable functions for diagonalization introduces the "magic" of self-reference, in the different points of view. Computers can only deal in code, which is impersonal and public. They are noit experiences, but can be descruiptions of experiences, which is not the same thing. Unfortunately, experiences are personal and computers, dealing in code only, have no access to them. They have access to their own code, but they are confronted to Truth, also. They have the same difficulty than us to relate truth and code. Why must I keep explaining this ? You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. That changes everything. The universal machine have a rich theology. Computers deal in code. At some level. Humans too. Cf DNA. People don't At some level. Machines too (cf the machine's first person). If you need to introduce magic, it means you want escape reason, but this can only lead to bad faith, wishful thinking, etc. Computer science shows that there is enough "magic" in reason. No need to introduce it, as this addition might hide the magic which is there. Also, your way of reasoning is invalid? If human can use magic to be conscious, why not machine? You might be underestimating God's power. Bruno Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Computers, code and consciousness
Bruno wrote No.6: *You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. * Was it a discovery, or an invention? Is thereO N E *discovered* machine for studying, or we just imagine how it should behave? On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 06 Nov 2013, at 13:48, Roger Clough wrote: > > Computers, code and consciousness >> >> Cumputers cannot simulate human activities or experiences >> or consciousness because they have to deal in code. >> >> Code is not magic, have no inherent intelligence. >> Computers are not magic, they are just machines. >> > > Magic explains even less. > Then, the closure of the computable functions for diagonalization > introduces the "magic" of self-reference, in the different points of view. > > > > > >> Computers can only deal in code, which is impersonal and >> public. They are noit experiences, but can be descruiptions >> of experiences, which is not the same thing. >> Unfortunately, experiences are >> personal and computers, dealing in code only, >> have no access to them. >> > > They have access to their own code, but they are confronted to Truth, > also. They have the same difficulty than us to relate truth and code. > > > > > >> Why must I keep explaining this ? >> > > You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. That changes > everything. The universal machine have a rich theology. > > > >> Computers deal in code. >> > > At some level. Humans too. Cf DNA. > > People don't >> > > At some level. Machines too (cf the machine's first person). > > If you need to introduce magic, it means you want escape reason, but this > can only lead to bad faith, wishful thinking, etc. > Computer science shows that there is enough "magic" in reason. No need to > introduce it, as this addition might hide the magic which is there. > Also, your way of reasoning is invalid? If human can use magic to be > conscious, why not machine? You might be underestimating God's power. > > Bruno > > > > > >> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] >> See my Leibniz site at >> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Computers, code and consciousness
On 06 Nov 2013, at 13:48, Roger Clough wrote: Computers, code and consciousness Cumputers cannot simulate human activities or experiences or consciousness because they have to deal in code. Code is not magic, have no inherent intelligence. Computers are not magic, they are just machines. Magic explains even less. Then, the closure of the computable functions for diagonalization introduces the "magic" of self-reference, in the different points of view. Computers can only deal in code, which is impersonal and public. They are noit experiences, but can be descruiptions of experiences, which is not the same thing. Unfortunately, experiences are personal and computers, dealing in code only, have no access to them. They have access to their own code, but they are confronted to Truth, also. They have the same difficulty than us to relate truth and code. Why must I keep explaining this ? You have missed the discovery of the universal machine. That changes everything. The universal machine have a rich theology. Computers deal in code. At some level. Humans too. Cf DNA. People don't At some level. Machines too (cf the machine's first person). If you need to introduce magic, it means you want escape reason, but this can only lead to bad faith, wishful thinking, etc. Computer science shows that there is enough "magic" in reason. No need to introduce it, as this addition might hide the magic which is there. Also, your way of reasoning is invalid? If human can use magic to be conscious, why not machine? You might be underestimating God's power. Bruno Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Computers, code and consciousness
Computers, code and consciousness Cumputers cannot simulate human activities or experiences or consciousness because they have to deal in code. Code is not magic, have no inherent intelligence. Computers are not magic, they are just machines. Computers can only deal in code, which is impersonal and public. They are noit experiences, but can be descruiptions of experiences, which is not the same thing. Unfortunately, experiences are personal and computers, dealing in code only, have no access to them. Why must I keep explaining this ? Computers deal in code. People don't Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
