Re: I am the de-phlogistonator!
Dear Colin, I just LOVE your crystal ball. Call it phlogiston or whatever. Your article http://www.theconversation.edu.au/the-modern-phlogiston-why-thinking-machines-dont-need-computers-7881 is a beauty and I enjoyed your exchange with Ben Goertzel. My questions, however, remained untouched from my earlier *agnostic* remarks: Who told you that whatever *brain* does is *physically * (and I mean the quantitative figment-science we learn at school) described as of yesterday? That it is * A L L* that counts? Your choice of name sounds a bit correct: Becher in 1667 thought everything is known to deduce his phlogiston and the AI thinks everything is known to 'model' thinking. Not too much of an advancement in leading sciences. It is more than likely that WE (whoever that may be) use something we identify with our brain as a practical tool for thinking, but we have no justification how much more is to it to make it work than what we already know (in our so far achieved mini-solipsism). I do not argue against using computers to mimic thinking I just question if the process is sufficiently *known* to make a workable computer-model (especially using up the ZERO $ funds available and using our present embryonic- binary - digital computer models). If all fits, it still may be an anthropocentric/morphic logic to imitate, while nature is not restricted to such. But this point goes too far maybe. Agnostically yours John Mikes Ph.D., D.Sc. ret. polymer scientist On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Colin Geoffrey Hales cgha...@unimelb.edu.au wrote: Hi, ** ** Hales, C. G. 2012 The modern phlogiston: why ‘thinking machines’ don’t need computers TheConversation. The Conversation media Group. ** ** http://www.theconversation.edu.au/the-modern-phlogiston-why-thinking-machines-dont-need-computers-7881 ** ** Cheers Colin P.S. I am done with this issue. I'll just 'Lavoisier' my way through the phlogiston. ** ** ** ** -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: I am the de-phlogistonator!
On 26.06.2012 04:14 meekerdb said the following: On 6/25/2012 6:22 PM, Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: Hi, Hales, C. G. 2012 The modern phlogiston: why 'thinking machines' don't need computers TheConversation. The Conversation media Group. http://www.theconversation.edu.au/the-modern-phlogiston-why-thinking-machines-dont-need-computers-7881 Cheers Colin P.S. I am done with this issue. I'll just 'Lavoisier' my way through the phlogiston. Good luck. I agree with your point: Engineering first, then science. Here there is a big question whether an engineer has free will (is an engineer different in this respect from a scientist?). In other words, whether the M-theory has already determined all actions of engineers or engineering allows us to find out whether the M-theory is correct. Evgenii But you must know it's not as simple as tissue implying some undifferentiated stuff. Even planaria have a wiring diagram, so to get AGI you probably need to start with the right wiring diagram. And if it is right it will still take a long time to educate it. Brent Artificial intelligence is just whatever doesn't work yet. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: I am the de-phlogistonator!
On 6/26/2012 11:49 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Here there is a big question whether an engineer has free will (is an engineer different in this respect from a scientist?). I think we've already elucidated several different possible meanings for 'free will'. Which one do you refer to? In other words, whether the M-theory has already determined all actions of engineers or engineering allows us to find out whether the M-theory is correct. What difference would it make, whether the answer is 'yes' or 'no', given that we don't (and can't) *know* the answer? Brent Evgenii -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: I am the de-phlogistonator!
On 26.06.2012 20:56 meekerdb said the following: On 6/26/2012 11:49 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Here there is a big question whether an engineer has free will (is an engineer different in this respect from a scientist?). I think we've already elucidated several different possible meanings for 'free will'. Which one do you refer to? In this context whether something depends on mental states of Colin's brain expressed in his paper or not. In other words, whether the M-theory has already determined all actions of engineers or engineering allows us to find out whether the M-theory is correct. What difference would it make, whether the answer is 'yes' or 'no', given that we don't (and can't) *know* the answer? A typical metaphysical statement could affect other statements that implicitly depend on it. Hence, in my view a different choice above causes different consequences, in a sense that positions assumed will be different. Evgenii -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
I am the de-phlogistonator!
Hi, Hales, C. G. 2012 The modern phlogiston: why 'thinking machines' don't need computers TheConversation. The Conversation media Group. http://www.theconversation.edu.au/the-modern-phlogiston-why-thinking-machines-dont-need-computers-7881 Cheers Colin P.S. I am done with this issue. I'll just 'Lavoisier' my way through the phlogiston. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: I am the de-phlogistonator!
On 6/25/2012 6:22 PM, Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: Hi, Hales, C. G. 2012 The modern phlogiston: why 'thinking machines' don't need computers TheConversation. The Conversation media Group. http://www.theconversation.edu.au/the-modern-phlogiston-why-thinking-machines-dont-need-computers-7881 Cheers Colin P.S. I am done with this issue. I'll just 'Lavoisier' my way through the phlogiston. Good luck. I agree with your point: Engineering first, then science. But you must know it's not as simple as tissue implying some undifferentiated stuff. Even planaria have a wiring diagram, so to get AGI you probably need to start with the right wiring diagram. And if it is right it will still take a long time to educate it. Brent Artificial intelligence is just whatever doesn't work yet. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
