Re: Smarter monkeys through Genetic Engineering?

2020-06-23 Thread Bruno Marchal 


> On 22 Jun 2020, at 22:48, Lawrence Crowell  
> wrote:
> 
> When it comes to space colonization or a permanent presence in space we must 
> have some clear positive economic feedback. It is of no use to build a base 
> or colony on the moon, or even more outlandishly on Mars, if there is no 
> return on investments. Maybe solar power satellites and then mining small 
> near Earth asteroids are a start. Yet, so far no clear strategy exists. 
> 
> It is a matter of industry and economics and not science. We can do plenty of 
> science in space without astronauts. In fact rather little science comes from 
> putting people in space.
> 
> If we do have some trajectory into space it is possible genetic reengineering 
> of Homo sapiens may become necessary. Brave New World may become reality.

It all depends of what we want. The problem with the humans is that they don’t 
know what they are looking for.

If we digitalised ourself, without progressing on some existential question, 
some human wreckage (as you said) has to be expected. Now, once digitalised, 
the very economic rule will change a lot, and we will be even more confronted 
with ourselves. With the humans, that is often not quite pretty. It looks like 
going to heaven requires some detours through hell, as mechanism suggests.

Bruno







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Re: Smarter monkeys through Genetic Engineering?

2020-06-22 Thread Lawrence Crowell 
When it comes to space colonization or a permanent presence in space we must 
have some clear positive economic feedback. It is of no use to build a base or 
colony on the moon, or even more outlandishly on Mars, if there is no return on 
investments. Maybe solar power satellites and then mining small near Earth 
asteroids are a start. Yet, so far no clear strategy exists. 

It is a matter of industry and economics and not science. We can do plenty of 
science in space without astronauts. In fact rather little science comes from 
putting people in space.

If we do have some trajectory into space it is possible genetic reengineering 
of Homo sapiens may become necessary. Brave New World may become reality.

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Re: Smarter monkeys through Genetic Engineering?

2020-06-22 Thread Lawrence Crowell 
It goes beyond just highly intelligent people. Complex brains did not evolve as 
such by adding neurons, but also with subtle recursive feedback loops to 
regulate it. For instance some personality disorders are linked to genes that 
express dysfunctional isozymes of monoamine oxidase neuropeptides that regulate 
signalling between neocortical and amygdala regions. This permits the executive 
decision and emotional regions to control each other. If we just multiply 
neurons it is a dicey prospect this feedback will scale linearly.

People with malignant behavioral disorders, such as narcissism, psychopathy and 
borderline disorders are a problem for not just themselves, but all of us. BTW, 
I was in a relationship with a woman with borderline disorder. It was 
exhausting. These problems stem from the neocortical and limbic regions of the 
brain being out of proper synchronicity. We start designing brains and you can 
be sure human wreckage will be all around us.

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Re: Smarter monkeys through Genetic Engineering?

2020-06-22 Thread Bruno Marchal 

> On 20 Jun 2020, at 22:26, Lawrence Crowell  
> wrote:
> 
> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 7:01:35 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/19/2020 9:35 AM, John Clark wrote:
>> A gene called "ARHGAP11B" that is found in humans and in no other animal has 
>> long been thought to be at least partially responsible for humans having an 
>> extremely large brain with a high degree of cortical folding. All other 
>> primates have a similar gene, but a point mutation happened between 500,000 
>> and 1.5 million years ago and a single C was changed to a G in the human 
>> version. In yesterday's issue of the journal Science researchers report than 
>> when Genetic engineering was used to insert the human gene ARHGAP11B into 
>> the fertilized egg of a small monkey (a marmoset ) the result was a fetus 
>> with about 45% more neurons in the neocortex than a normal fetus and 3 times 
>> as many glial cells. A marmoset gestation period is 152 days but because it 
>> had a human gene in it the fetus was aborted after just 101 days due to 
>> ethical guidelines, so it's not known how such an animal's behavior would 
>> change if it was allowed to come to term.
>> 
>> Human-specific ARHGAP11B increases size and folding of primate neocortex in 
>> the fetal marmoset 
>> 
> 
> So one gene made it necessary to abort because it might have a 
> humaness...which you must not abort because humaness implies a soul??
> 
> How did our ethical guidelines become so irrational?  
> 
> I wonder how it would affect a dog?  I'll be there would be a market for 
> smarter dogs.  And where there's a market, there's a way.
> 
> Brent
> 
> I don't think the matter is over ethereal ideas about souls. The implications 
> of this research are potentially explosive. A gene in soybeans produces an 
> enzyme involved with a pathway that produces a compound that blocks 
> glyphosphate. Glyphosphate inhibits the production of several amino acids in 
> plants. The gene in soybeans is then copied multiple times in the soybeans to 
> make then super resistant to glyphosphate. In principle the same could be 
> done with humans; insert additional copies of the ARHGAP11B gene to create 
> super-smart babies. The question of course is, what can go wrong with this? 
> There are potential nightmare scenarios for people so genetically engineered. 
> Further, a sort of "brains arms race" could lead to generations of young 
> people who are mental freaks. They might be in some ways very smart, but they 
> could also easily be emotionally dysfunctional or mentally ill. 
> 
> My brother was a plant molecular biologist and geneticist and I used to have 
> arguments over this. I am not entirely against genetic modification, but I 
> think great care and caution is in order. My brother was more laissez faire 
> about this. 


I share the caution, but in the long run(s), we have to defend our values, as 
our bodies will change, no matter what.

There has been results showing that the brain augments his size in absence of 
gravity, leading to blindness or super-headache and often both for those 
astronauts staying too much longer in space. So to explore space, we will need 
genetic self-modification. Eventually, we will use many diverse forms of 
Mechanism, to really explores “physically” our local neighbourhood, but also 
get the “place” for the experimental mathematics too, and pursue the search 
inwards.

At least we know that in the terrestrial plane the dispute between security 
(totality) and liberty (universality) never ends.
This can be related to the hesitation between collectivity (multi-cellularity) 
and individuality (mono-cellularity).

Bruno




> 
> LC
> 
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Re: Smarter monkeys through Genetic Engineering?

2020-06-22 Thread Bruno Marchal 

> On 20 Jun 2020, at 02:01, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/19/2020 9:35 AM, John Clark wrote:
>> A gene called "ARHGAP11B" that is found in humans and in no other animal has 
>> long been thought to be at least partially responsible for humans having an 
>> extremely large brain with a high degree of cortical folding. All other 
>> primates have a similar gene, but a point mutation happened between 500,000  
>>and 1.5 million years ago and a single C was changed to a G in 
>> the human version. In yesterday's issue of the journal Science researchers 
>> report than when Genetic engineering was used to insert the human gene 
>> ARHGAP11B into the fertilized egg of a small monkey (a marmoset ) the result 
>> was a fetus with about 45% more neurons in the neocortex than a normal fetus 
>> and 3 times as many glial cells. A marmoset gestation period is 152 days but 
>> because it had a human gene in it the fetus was aborted after just 101 days 
>> due to ethical guidelines, so it's not known how such an animal's behavior 
>> would change if it was allowed to come to term.
>> 
>> Human-specific ARHGAP11B increases size and folding of primate neocortex in 
>> the fetal marmoset 
>> 
> 
> So one gene made it necessary to abort because it might have a 
> humaness...which you must not abort because humaness implies a soul??
> 
> How did our ethical guidelines become so irrational?  

Easy. By forbidden or mocking the use of reason in the field for a Lon period 
of time.

The ethic question is “do you accept that your daughter marry an ape, or a pig, 
genetically modified, and which, actually has a PhD thesis in the cognitive 
science, or physics, or whatever …?

Should we consider as racist someone answering no to that question?

Bruno


> 
> I wonder how it would affect a dog?  I'll be there would be a market for 
> smarter dogs.  And where there's a market, there's a way.
> 
> Brent
> 
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>  
> .

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Re: Smarter monkeys through Genetic Engineering?

2020-06-21 Thread John Clark 
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 4:26 PM Lawrence Crowell <
goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:


> *> insert additional copies of the ARHGAP11B gene to create super-smart
> babies. The question of course is, what can go wrong with this? There are
> potential nightmare scenarios for people so genetically engineered.
> Further, a sort of "brains arms race" could lead to generations of young
> people who are mental freaks. They might be in some ways very smart, but
> they could also easily be emotionally dysfunctional or mentally ill.  My
> brother was a plant molecular biologist and geneticist and I used to have
> arguments over this. I am not entirely against genetic modification, but I
> think great care and caution is in order. My brother was more laissez faire
> about this.*


I'm with your brother on this one. It's true that some mathematicians,
especially world class mathematicians, tend to be a bit on the odd side, so
it's not unreasonable to think that increased intelligence might cause some
mental instability and other problems, but historically all advancements
have always caused problems of some sort, some of which we learn how to fix
and others we learn how to live with. And besides, trying to halt this
would be a losing proposition; out of a population of 7.6 billion people
sooner or later somebody somewhere is going to use genetic engineering to
enhance human intelligence, and that will result in people who can outsmart
those who have not received such enhancement. Right or wrong in the end the
pro-enhancement people will win and the anti-enhancement people will lose,
it's only a matter of time.

John K Clark

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Re: Smarter monkeys through Genetic Engineering?

2020-06-20 Thread Lawrence Crowell 
On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 7:01:35 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
>
>
>
> On 6/19/2020 9:35 AM, John Clark wrote:
>
> A gene called "ARHGAP11B" that is found in humans and in no other animal 
> has long been thought to be at least partially responsible for humans 
> having an extremely large brain with a high degree of cortical folding. All 
> other primates have a similar gene, but a point mutation happened between 
> 500,000 and 1.5 million years ago and a single C was changed to a G in the 
> human version. In yesterday's issue of the journal Science researchers 
> report than when Genetic engineering was used to insert the human gene 
> ARHGAP11B into the fertilized egg of a small monkey (a marmoset ) the 
> result was a fetus with about 45% more neurons in the neocortex than a 
> normal fetus and 3 times as many glial cells. A marmoset gestation period 
> is 152 days but because it had a human gene in it the fetus was aborted 
> after just 101 days due to ethical guidelines, so it's not known how such 
> an animal's behavior would change if it was allowed to come to term. 
>
> Human-specific ARHGAP11B increases size and folding of primate neocortex 
> in the fetal marmoset 
> 
>
>
> So one gene made it necessary to abort because it might have a 
> humaness...which you must not abort because humaness implies a soul??
>
> How did our ethical guidelines become so irrational?  
>
> I wonder how it would affect a dog?  I'll be there would be a market for 
> smarter dogs.  And where there's a market, there's a way.
>
> Brent
>

I don't think the matter is over ethereal ideas about souls. The 
implications of this research are potentially explosive. A gene in soybeans 
produces an enzyme involved with a pathway that produces a compound that 
blocks glyphosphate. Glyphosphate inhibits the production of several amino 
acids in plants. The gene in soybeans is then copied multiple times in the 
soybeans to make then super resistant to glyphosphate. In principle the 
same could be done with humans; insert additional copies of the ARHGAP11B 
gene to create super-smart babies. The question of course is, what can go 
wrong with this? There are potential nightmare scenarios for people so 
genetically engineered. Further, a sort of "brains arms race" could lead to 
generations of young people who are mental freaks. They might be in some 
ways very smart, but they could also easily be emotionally dysfunctional or 
mentally ill. 

My brother was a plant molecular biologist and geneticist and I used to 
have arguments over this. I am not entirely against genetic modification, 
but I think great care and caution is in order. My brother was more laissez 
faire about this. 

LC

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Re: Smarter monkeys through Genetic Engineering?

2020-06-20 Thread John Clark 
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 8:01 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

*So one gene made it necessary to abort because it might have a
> humaness...which you must not abort because humaness implies a soul?? How
> did our ethical guidelines become so irrational? *


It's easy for human beings to strongly believe in 2 viewpoints which
logically contradict each other, Trump supporters prove that every day.

John K Claek





>
> On 6/19/2020 9:35 AM, John Clark wrote:
>
> A gene called "ARHGAP11B" that is found in humans and in no other animal
> has long been thought to be at least partially responsible for humans
> having an extremely large brain with a high degree of cortical folding. All
> other primates have a similar gene, but a point mutation happened between
> 500,000 and 1.5 million years ago and a single C was changed to a G in the
> human version. In yesterday's issue of the journal Science researchers
> report than when Genetic engineering was used to insert the human gene
> ARHGAP11B into the fertilized egg of a small monkey (a marmoset ) the
> result was a fetus with about 45% more neurons in the neocortex than a
> normal fetus and 3 times as many glial cells. A marmoset gestation period
> is 152 days but because it had a human gene in it the fetus was aborted
> after just 101 days due to ethical guidelines, so it's not known how such
> an animal's behavior would change if it was allowed to come to term.
>
> Human-specific ARHGAP11B increases size and folding of primate neocortex
> in the fetal marmoset
> 
>
>
> So one gene made it necessary to abort because it might have a
> humaness...which you must not abort because humaness implies a soul??
>
> How did our ethical guidelines become so irrational?
>
> I wonder how it would affect a dog?  I'll be there would be a market for
> smarter dogs.  And where there's a market, there's a way.
>
> Brent
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Smarter monkeys through Genetic Engineering?

2020-06-19 Thread 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 



On 6/19/2020 9:35 AM, John Clark wrote:
A gene called "ARHGAP11B" that is found in humans and in no other 
animal has long been thought to be at least partially responsible for 
humans having an extremely large brain with a high degree of cortical 
folding. All other primates have a similar gene, but a point mutation 
happened between 500,000 and 1.5 million years ago and a single C was 
changed to a G in the human version. In yesterday's issue of the 
journal Science researchers report than when Genetic engineering was 
used to insert the human gene ARHGAP11B into the fertilized egg of a 
small monkey (a marmoset ) the result was a fetus with about 45% more 
neurons in the neocortex than a normal fetus and 3 times as many glial 
cells. A marmoset gestation period is 152 days but because it had a 
human gene in it the fetus was aborted after just 101 days due to 
ethical guidelines, so it's not known how such an animal's behavior 
would change if it was allowed to come to term.


Human-specific ARHGAP11B increases size and folding of primate 
neocortex in the fetal marmoset 



So one gene made it necessary to abort because it might have a 
humaness...which you must not abort because humaness implies a soul??


How did our ethical guidelines become so irrational?

I wonder how it would affect a dog?  I'll be there would be a market for 
smarter dogs.  And where there's a market, there's a way.


Brent

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