Re: Worth while video

2013-07-02 Thread Bruno Marchal 


Dear Stephen,


Dear Bruno,

I would like to see more remarks from you on how you expect 'the  
physical laws' to be defined. I have tried to suggest a method, but  
it requires a way to define a means by which numbers can determine  
both a quantity of similarity and difference between themselves. I  
suggest that the notion of bisimulation between computations can be  
used...


That is the kind of thing I could only judge on piece (if this is  
english). Just do it, and then you can compare with what has been done  
already. The physical laws are defined by what is invariant, for the  
FPI,  from the 1p-view of universal machines. Just take literally the  
consequence in the UDA step 7. This will be modeled by Bp & Dt,  
mainly, with p sigma_1, for reason that I will explain, probably, when  
we arrive to it. Bp will be equivalent with p is true in all  
consistent extension, and Dt will mean that there is a least one  
extension, which are reasonable for a probability "one" on them.


Bruno






On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Bruno Marchal   
wrote:


On 01 Jul 2013, at 21:00, Stephen Paul King wrote:


Hi Mitch,

Great comments! I would only wonder why the BB concept is not seen,  
by Susskind et al, as equivalent to the Observer Moment (or  
Barborian Time Capsule) concept. My question is how do they justify  
the 'memory of a past state' of a BB; or do they ignore this?  
Additionally, it seems that we can easily stretch the BB idea into  
a "Last Thursdayism" concept.


I agree. And "physical BB" might not make computational sense, as  
some comp state needs long histories to appear and stay stable.


But it remains to be see, by the math, if deepness and linearity  
stabilize consciousness enough to get physical laws like the one we  
infer from observation.


(Cf my comment to Mitch)

Bruno




On Monday, July 1, 2013 12:25:27 PM UTC-4, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
You'll likely hate my comment, but Susskind and Raphael Bousso are  
or were pretty big on Boltzmann Brains. The more I look at the  
words of physicists speaking about this phenomena (pro and con) the  
more it seems to be an evolving theology. Bostrom might also be  
into this. Conway may not even be aware of BB, and I would guess  
that Tegmark would laugh it all off. Which maybe he should. I am  
amzed and sometimes inspired by the discussions regarding this.  
Questions arise and evolve such as-


In an infinite universe you'd produce more BB's them people
What about a smaller number of BB's?
Would these observers be as described? Having their own personal  
memories, and personalities, however false?

Being of human level intelligence or better.?
I asked Dr. Clough if a BB could be one of his Monads??
There has been a question asked out there internet-land, whether we  
exist as thoughs or ideas in one BB?

Finally, is our BB, God?
One Russian Physicist working in Peking wrote a paper that he saw  
BB's as likely, but that each cosmos would have it's own BB.


It's mind-numbing and perhaps not even worth discussing (?)  I  
apologize if this is too crazy, but it's what I have been  
interneting about the last couple of weeks. If Our BB did write a  
program that eventually created us, that might do it for me.  
Other's would say no. At any rate, it might be a nice thing to be  
friendly to our universe's BB, if only to enjoy commincating (if  
possible?) with such a brilliant mind.


BB's were believed by Boltzmann to evolve from thermal differences  
in space. Sort of like Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy drive  
producing a air borne whale, falling to the surface of the planet,  
Magarthea. Or it might be one way to simply arrive, via thermal  
fluctuations.


Well, string drink is called for.

Mitch


-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch 
To: Everything List ; foar  


Sent: Sun, Jun 30, 2013 11:13 pm
Subject: Worth while video

On the subject of reality, featuring John Conway, Max Tegmark,  
Leonard Susskind, and Nick Bostrom:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyH2D4-tzfM

Jason
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Re: Worth while video

2013-07-01 Thread Stephen Paul King 
Dear Bruno,

I would like to see more remarks from you on how you expect 'the physical
laws' to be defined. I have tried to suggest a method, but it requires a
way to define a means by which numbers can determine both a quantity of
similarity and difference between themselves. I suggest that the notion of
bisimulation between computations can be used...


On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Bruno Marchal  wrote:

>
> On 01 Jul 2013, at 21:00, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi Mitch,
>
> Great comments! I would only wonder why the BB concept is not seen, by
> Susskind et al, as equivalent to the Observer Moment (or Barborian Time
> Capsule) concept. My question is how do they justify the 'memory of a past
> state' of a BB; or do they ignore this? Additionally, it seems that we can
> easily stretch the BB idea into a "Last Thursdayism" concept.
>
>
> I agree. And "physical BB" might not make computational sense, as some
> comp state needs long histories to appear and stay stable.
>
> But it remains to be see, by the math, if deepness and linearity stabilize
> consciousness enough to get physical laws like the one we infer from
> observation.
>
> (Cf my comment to Mitch)
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
> On Monday, July 1, 2013 12:25:27 PM UTC-4, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> You'll likely hate my comment, but Susskind and Raphael Bousso are or
>> were pretty big on Boltzmann Brains. The more I look at the words of
>> physicists speaking about this phenomena (pro and con) the more it seems to
>> be an evolving theology. Bostrom might also be into this. Conway may not
>> even be aware of BB, and I would guess that Tegmark would laugh it all off.
>> Which maybe he should. I am amzed and sometimes inspired by the discussions
>> regarding this. Questions arise and evolve such as-
>>
>> In an infinite universe you'd produce more BB's them people
>> What about a smaller number of BB's?
>> Would these observers be as described? Having their own personal
>> memories, and personalities, however false?
>> Being of human level intelligence or better.?
>> I asked Dr. Clough if a BB could be one of his Monads??
>> There has been a question asked out there internet-land, whether we exist
>> as thoughs or ideas in one BB?
>> Finally, is our BB, God?
>> One Russian Physicist working in Peking wrote a paper that he saw BB's as
>> likely, but that each cosmos would have it's own BB.
>>
>> It's mind-numbing and perhaps not even worth discussing (?)  I apologize
>> if this is too crazy, but it's what I have been interneting about the last
>> couple of weeks. If Our BB did write a program that eventually created us,
>> that might do it for me. Other's would say no. At any rate, it might be a
>> nice thing to be friendly to our universe's BB, if only to enjoy
>> commincating (if possible?) with such a brilliant mind.
>>
>> BB's were believed by Boltzmann to evolve from thermal differences in
>> space. Sort of like Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy drive producing a air
>> borne whale, falling to the surface of the planet, Magarthea. Or it might
>> be one way to simply arrive, via thermal fluctuations.
>>
>> Well, string drink is called for.
>>
>> Mitch
>>
>>
>>  -Original Message-
>> From: Jason Resch 
>> To: Everything List ; foar <
>> fo...@googlegroups.com>
>> Sent: Sun, Jun 30, 2013 11:13 pm
>> Subject: Worth while video
>>
>>  On the subject of reality, featuring John Conway, Max Tegmark, Leonard
>> Susskind, and Nick Bostrom:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=oyH2D4-tzfM
>>
>>  Jason
>>  --
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>> email to everything-li...@**googlegroups.com.
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>> http://groups.google.com/**group/everything-list
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>> For more options, visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out
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>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Worth while video

2013-07-01 Thread Bruno Marchal 


On 01 Jul 2013, at 21:00, Stephen Paul King wrote:


Hi Mitch,

Great comments! I would only wonder why the BB concept is not seen,  
by Susskind et al, as equivalent to the Observer Moment (or  
Barborian Time Capsule) concept. My question is how do they justify  
the 'memory of a past state' of a BB; or do they ignore this?  
Additionally, it seems that we can easily stretch the BB idea into a  
"Last Thursdayism" concept.


I agree. And "physical BB" might not make computational sense, as some  
comp state needs long histories to appear and stay stable.


But it remains to be see, by the math, if deepness and linearity  
stabilize consciousness enough to get physical laws like the one we  
infer from observation.


(Cf my comment to Mitch)

Bruno




On Monday, July 1, 2013 12:25:27 PM UTC-4, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
You'll likely hate my comment, but Susskind and Raphael Bousso are  
or were pretty big on Boltzmann Brains. The more I look at the words  
of physicists speaking about this phenomena (pro and con) the more  
it seems to be an evolving theology. Bostrom might also be into  
this. Conway may not even be aware of BB, and I would guess that  
Tegmark would laugh it all off. Which maybe he should. I am amzed  
and sometimes inspired by the discussions regarding this. Questions  
arise and evolve such as-


In an infinite universe you'd produce more BB's them people
What about a smaller number of BB's?
Would these observers be as described? Having their own personal  
memories, and personalities, however false?

Being of human level intelligence or better.?
I asked Dr. Clough if a BB could be one of his Monads??
There has been a question asked out there internet-land, whether we  
exist as thoughs or ideas in one BB?

Finally, is our BB, God?
One Russian Physicist working in Peking wrote a paper that he saw  
BB's as likely, but that each cosmos would have it's own BB.


It's mind-numbing and perhaps not even worth discussing (?)  I  
apologize if this is too crazy, but it's what I have been  
interneting about the last couple of weeks. If Our BB did write a  
program that eventually created us, that might do it for me. Other's  
would say no. At any rate, it might be a nice thing to be friendly  
to our universe's BB, if only to enjoy commincating (if possible?)  
with such a brilliant mind.


BB's were believed by Boltzmann to evolve from thermal differences  
in space. Sort of like Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy drive  
producing a air borne whale, falling to the surface of the planet,  
Magarthea. Or it might be one way to simply arrive, via thermal  
fluctuations.


Well, string drink is called for.

Mitch


-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch 
To: Everything List ; foar  


Sent: Sun, Jun 30, 2013 11:13 pm
Subject: Worth while video

On the subject of reality, featuring John Conway, Max Tegmark,  
Leonard Susskind, and Nick Bostrom:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyH2D4-tzfM

Jason
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Re: Worth while video

2013-07-01 Thread Stephen Paul King 
Hi Mitch,

Great comments! I would only wonder why the BB concept is not seen, by 
Susskind et al, as equivalent to the Observer Moment (or Barborian Time 
Capsule) concept. My question is how do they justify the 'memory of a past 
state' of a BB; or do they ignore this? Additionally, it seems that we can 
easily stretch the BB idea into a "Last Thursdayism" concept.

On Monday, July 1, 2013 12:25:27 PM UTC-4, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
>
> You'll likely hate my comment, but Susskind and Raphael Bousso are or were 
> pretty big on Boltzmann Brains. The more I look at the words of physicists 
> speaking about this phenomena (pro and con) the more it seems to be an 
> evolving theology. Bostrom might also be into this. Conway may not even be 
> aware of BB, and I would guess that Tegmark would laugh it all off. Which 
> maybe he should. I am amzed and sometimes inspired by the discussions 
> regarding this. Questions arise and evolve such as-
>  
> In an infinite universe you'd produce more BB's them people
> What about a smaller number of BB's? 
> Would these observers be as described? Having their own personal memories, 
> and personalities, however false?
> Being of human level intelligence or better.?
> I asked Dr. Clough if a BB could be one of his Monads??
> There has been a question asked out there internet-land, whether we exist 
> as thoughs or ideas in one BB?
> Finally, is our BB, God?
> One Russian Physicist working in Peking wrote a paper that he saw BB's as 
> likely, but that each cosmos would have it's own BB. 
>  
> It's mind-numbing and perhaps not even worth discussing (?)  I apologize 
> if this is too crazy, but it's what I have been interneting about the last 
> couple of weeks. If Our BB did write a program that eventually created us, 
> that might do it for me. Other's would say no. At any rate, it might be a 
> nice thing to be friendly to our universe's BB, if only to enjoy 
> commincating (if possible?) with such a brilliant mind. 
>  
> BB's were believed by Boltzmann to evolve from thermal differences in 
> space. Sort of like Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy drive producing a air 
> borne whale, falling to the surface of the planet, Magarthea. Or it might 
> be one way to simply arrive, via thermal fluctuations. 
>  
> Well, string drink is called for. 
>  
> Mitch
>
>
>  -Original Message-
> From: Jason Resch >
> To: Everything List >; foar <
> fo...@googlegroups.com >
> Sent: Sun, Jun 30, 2013 11:13 pm
> Subject: Worth while video
>
>  On the subject of reality, featuring John Conway, Max Tegmark, Leonard 
> Susskind, and Nick Bostrom:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyH2D4-tzfM
>
>  Jason
>  -- 
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>  
>  
>  

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Re: Worth while video

2013-07-01 Thread Bruno Marchal 


On 01 Jul 2013, at 18:25, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

You'll likely hate my comment, but Susskind and Raphael Bousso are  
or were pretty big on Boltzmann Brains. The more I look at the words  
of physicists speaking about this phenomena (pro and con) the more  
it seems to be an evolving theology. Bostrom might also be into  
this. Conway may not even be aware of BB, and I would guess that  
Tegmark would laugh it all off. Which maybe he should. I am amzed  
and sometimes inspired by the discussions regarding this. Questions  
arise and evolve such as-


In an infinite universe you'd produce more BB's them people
What about a smaller number of BB's?
Would these observers be as described? Having their own personal  
memories, and personalities, however false?

Being of human level intelligence or better.?
I asked Dr. Clough if a BB could be one of his Monads??
There has been a question asked out there internet-land, whether we  
exist as thoughs or ideas in one BB?

Finally, is our BB, God?
One Russian Physicist working in Peking wrote a paper that he saw  
BB's as likely, but that each cosmos would have it's own BB.


They begin to well exposed comp, without saying. A BB is a  
computation, implemented in some universe (which physicists assume).


But "computation implemented in some universe" is what the universal  
dovetailer dovetail on, and so you can say that there exists  
infinities of BB in arithmetic.


This leads to a testable conclusion: it is enough to look at ourselves  
below the reconstitution level, and see if we get the "web of dreams"  
predicted by computer science.


If we don't find this, it can means three things:
- comp is false
- the classical theory of knowledge is false
- we are in a local simulation, by our descendants perhaps.






It's mind-numbing and perhaps not even worth discussing (?)  I  
apologize if this is too crazy, but it's what I have been  
interneting about the last couple of weeks. If Our BB did write a  
program that eventually created us, that might do it for me.


That's Bayesianism, or ASSA. This miss the FPI.  We are, in a sense,  
in all Boltzman Brains. You must take the FPI into account on the  
whole of arithmetic, because you cannot be aware of the gigantic  
delays brought by the "natural implementation of it" made by arithmetic.







Other's would say no. At any rate, it might be a nice thing to be  
friendly to our universe's BB, if only to enjoy commincating (if  
possible?) with such a brilliant mind.


BB's were believed by Boltzmann to evolve from thermal differences  
in space. Sort of like Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy drive  
producing a air borne whale, falling to the surface of the planet,  
Magarthea. Or it might be one way to simply arrive, via thermal  
fluctuations.


I agree that the question of concrete BB in our probable universe  
belongs to sc. fi today, but this does not really matter, because if  
we are machine, then we belong already in all BB that exists in  
arithmetic, and below our substitution level, they multiply and  
parallelise, if I can say.





Well, string drink is called for.


You can't. You have first to derive it from machine's dream theory.

Bruno






Mitch


-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch 
To: Everything List ; foar >

Sent: Sun, Jun 30, 2013 11:13 pm
Subject: Worth while video

On the subject of reality, featuring John Conway, Max Tegmark,  
Leonard Susskind, and Nick Bostrom:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyH2D4-tzfM

Jason
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Re: Worth while video

2013-07-01 Thread spudboy100 

You'll likely hate my comment, but Susskind and Raphael Bousso are or were 
pretty big on Boltzmann Brains. The more I look at the words of physicists 
speaking about this phenomena (pro and con) the more it seems to be an evolving 
theology. Bostrom might also be into this. Conway may not even be aware of BB, 
and I would guess that Tegmark would laugh it all off. Which maybe he should. I 
am amzed and sometimes inspired by the discussions regarding this. Questions 
arise and evolve such as-

In an infinite universe you'd produce more BB's them people
What about a smaller number of BB's? 
Would these observers be as described? Having their own personal memories, and 
personalities, however false?
Being of human level intelligence or better.?
I asked Dr. Clough if a BB could be one of his Monads??
There has been a question asked out there internet-land, whether we exist as 
thoughs or ideas in one BB?
Finally, is our BB, God?
One Russian Physicist working in Peking wrote a paper that he saw BB's as 
likely, but that each cosmos would have it's own BB. 

It's mind-numbing and perhaps not even worth discussing (?)  I apologize if 
this is too crazy, but it's what I have been interneting about the last couple 
of weeks. If Our BB did write a program that eventually created us, that might 
do it for me. Other's would say no. At any rate, it might be a nice thing to be 
friendly to our universe's BB, if only to enjoy commincating (if possible?) 
with such a brilliant mind. 

BB's were believed by Boltzmann to evolve from thermal differences in space. 
Sort of like Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy drive producing a air borne 
whale, falling to the surface of the planet, Magarthea. Or it might be one way 
to simply arrive, via thermal fluctuations. 

Well, string drink is called for. 

Mitch



-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch 
To: Everything List ; foar 

Sent: Sun, Jun 30, 2013 11:13 pm
Subject: Worth while video



On the subject of reality, featuring John Conway, Max Tegmark, Leonard 
Susskind, and Nick Bostrom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyH2D4-tzfM


Jason


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