Re: [Evolution] Support for Oauth2 and Office365

[Pete Biggs]

On Sat, 2022-11-19 at 22:49 -0600, Anymous Japhering via evolution-list
wrote:
> On 11/18/22 18:53, Michael Kenny via evolution-list wrote:
> > I believe You have to use Exchange Web Services, not IMAP and the
> > server address is https://outlook.office365.com/ews/exchange.asmx
> > 
> > Once that authenticates click check for Supported Types and it will
> > pull Outh2.  You should get a pop up somewhere it that process to enter
> > your Office 365 info.
> 
> I'll be a little bit traitorist 
> 
> when Evolution fails, I fall back to Thunderbird, which works just
> fine with Office365 using IMAP and Oauth2

Yes. OAuth2 just gives a token that you use instead of a password. The
critical thing is to get a hold of that token, and Evolution, being not
just an email client, goes down the route of providing a full O365
experience that most corporate people will expect (calendar,
addressbook, delegate/shared accounts, meeting invites, etc. etc.); it
comes with the added benefit that for people who don't work in a
corporate environment, it is a perfectly acceptable email interface.

If you think that Evolution should provide OAuth2 for IMAP in these
cases, then file a feature request.  But my experience of using both
EWS and IMAP with O365 is that IMAP feels like an afterthought, a "oh I
suppose we should provide some form of imap interface" type thing. I
wouldn't be at all surprised if IMAP becomes a deprecated O365
interface at some point in the future, much like app passwords are.

Just bite the bullet and setup EWS in Evolution.

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Support for Oauth2 and Office365

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-11-18 at 10:19 -0600, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
list wrote:
> Evolution 3.46.1 (by Flathub.org)
> 
> The aforementioned version doesn't support Oauth2 for connections to 
> Microsoft's Office365.
> 
> As MS has cut off use of plain passwords, and none of the other methods 
> offered by
> Evolution are supported by MS Office365 servers, I'm wondering when 
> Oauth2 might become
> available for this use case in Evolution.
> 
I'm using OAuth2 with O365 on Evolution 3.44.x - it's been available
for a long time.  Are you saying it doesn't work with the Flatpack
version, or that it doesn't work with 3.46.x at all?

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designedto go?

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> > So, did you run a different/newer version of Evolution before going
> > back to using the default version for your OS?  (Note that I don't
> > know
> > if the flatpak version uses the same data locations now - I don't use
> > flatpak at all, so someone with more knowledge will be able to say.)
> > 
> I did not run a newer version prior to this. I said that clearly and I
> really have no reason to lie. I was trying to solve a problem. Why lie?

The logs that you sent in this message:

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-November/msg00086.html

indicate that the underlying databases are from a newer version of
Evolution than you are trying to run.  Lines such as:

   Nov 6 12:36:44 blackbox evolution[11523]:  error message was: table 
Inbox has 30 columns but 28 values were supplied

Now this could be because you have run a newer version on the machine
"blackbox" before importing the data, or the data you imported is from
a newer version.

You say you didn't knowingly run a newer version, and I have no reason
to disbelieve you, but the underlying fact, and probably the source of
your issues, is that the database schema are the wrong version. Did you
experiment with other distros before settling on Debian, but kept the
same home directory?

> 
> > Nevertheless, Milan has given you all the information you need to
> > clean
> > up your configuration to start anew. 
> > 
> 
> I am stuck with the flatpak version until Debian roles out the version
> I need and then, I pray that once I export again, it will import
> without another blow up. I honestly do not understand about the
> comment, "Milan has given you all the information you need to
> clean  up your configuration to start anew."

This message:

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-November/msg00091.html


where Milan Crha gave you detailed information on how to fix the
issues.  It is entirely up to you if you want to follow his
instructions or stick with the Flatpak version. It may be too late
anyway if you have been using the Flatpak one for a while and you are
retrieving mail by POP into that version as you won't be able to export
from there into the older native version.  In all honesty if you are
using the Flatpak version with POP the easiest route is to just stick
with it.

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designedto go?

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 20:01 +0800, Mike Lieberman wrote:
> I used installed the 3.46.1 (by Flathub.org) version. My OS didn't like
> it but it did install and the problem I was having is gone. This
> version is working.

I presume you understand that Flatpak versions run in a sanboxed
environment?  I'm not sure of the current state of the newest versions
and how they interact with the host OS, but that sandboxing has caused
issues in the past (although we are seeing fewer help requests about
them).

> 
> The new flathub install software center is not liked by Debian. And the
> code Debian is installing is a problem. 

If you mean the Evolution version that Debian installs, then no, you
are not correct.  It is all OK.  What appears to be the issue is that
the backend databases that contain Evolution operational data are a
newer version than your version of Evolution is expecting: as Evolution
is developed, new features are added that require updates to the
database schema. These updates are not backward compatible, so if you
try and run an older version of Evolution after running a newer
version, you will get errors and odd behaviour.

So, did you run a different/newer version of Evolution before going
back to using the default version for your OS?  (Note that I don't know
if the flatpak version uses the same data locations now - I don't use
flatpak at all, so someone with more knowledge will be able to say.)

Nevertheless, Milan has given you all the information you need to clean
up your configuration to start anew. 


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> They basically provide a fully self-contained package containing a tool
> (like Evolution) and ALL of its dependencies, as a single bundle. 
> These dependencies are not installed separately on your system: they
> are not visible to any other program "outside" the flatpak.  And the
> Evolution in the flatpak doesn't use any of your system libraries, it
> only uses the libraries in the flatpak.  So there's no way they can
> introduce dependency hell.

I know this is getting way of topic, but this is primarily why I shy
away from Flatpak. You download a blob of "stuff" and you have no real
idea what is in that - it could be some ancient bug-ridden library that
the dev has decided to use because that's what was on their system when
writing it 20 years ago and they can't be bothered to update it. It's
not a theoretical risk either: there's an application I use at my day
job and they specifically said that the only way of running it now is
to use containers because it will only work on an ancient version of
Ubuntu and so they packaged all the old libraries into a container so
they don't have to support modern systems. 

I would hope that something like Evolution is not so crass, but it
always strikes me as a way for devs and maintainers to not do it
properly!

(And yes, I understand you run the same risk with statically compiled
applications - I also don't like them.)

> 
> And if it doesn't work, well, it's a self-contained separate bundle so
> you can either just ignore it, or remove it: it doesn't interfere with
> anything else on the system.  That's the point.

And the fact that it doesn't interact with anything makes it less
integrated into your system - unless you go through a load of arcane
Flatpak command line arguments to make it talk to your environment. 

Yes, I know it's not that difficult, probably. But it's also not always
as straightforward as you are making out.

> 
> These days even the recent RedHat Enterprise distros can do an upgrade
> without reformatting the disk (finally!).

Hmm, I know Fedora does quite well at it, but I don't think I would
trust the RHEL major version upgrade - the whole point is that my big
iron has the same enterprise version for the whole of it's physical
life, it gets retired rather than upgraded!

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designedto go?

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> [Parenthetically, the listserv is set up incorrectly. I ran listservs, 
> some twenty something years ago, and the settings on return mail are 
> backwards.]

And I ran mailing lists for many years as well and this is exactly how
it should be. Not everyone here are younguns who don't remember pre-web
days, there's plenty of retired people with decades of experience of
working in IT here.

It's all moot anyway.  This mailing list has, what, a week of life left
in it. 

> 
> [and in a homage to days long gone - and the loss of my normal sig 
> file]

I was going to make some snarky comment about your 70+ line / 4500+
character signature, but, TBH, there's not much point.

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> On the new platform, with the data imported (and all the data is
> there) only a day after I imported it, it no longer displayed any new
> mail.
> 
> It says there is new mail via a notification popup, but there is
> nothing in the inbox or anywhere else.

How do you retrieve the mail into Evolution from your server?

Are you sure you don't have a search active?

Please look at Help -> Contents -> Common mail questions
 -> I cannot see some emails ...

> 
> Every once and a while I got a UID error message about a problem, but
> it wasn't all the time. 

What is the error message?  This sort of implies you use POP.

> 
> I used apt to remove the package. I deleted the folders, and then
> deleted the trash, rebooting the PC immediately after that. 

Re-installing rarely solves problems.  

Which folders did you delete?  You need to remove all the configuration
as well as the actual mails. The locations of everything is in the Help
system.

Do you still have the PST files?  Rather than moving things from the VM
can you just re-import the PST files.

> 
> I really wanted Evolution to work. It is now the repository for all I
> have done in these last thirty years, but unless there is a way to
> fix what ails this program, while it allowed me to make the move off
> Windows, it is now only a vault for old emails and that is not good.

A possible route is to install an IMAP server on your mail server - I
run Exim & Dovecot on single CPU VMs and it barely registers a load
level.  Then connect the Evolution on the VM to that server and copy
everything on to IMAP. Then on your "real" Evolution, just set it up to
use IMAP and leave it like that. Your mail will then be stored on the
server and you don't need to worry about overloading. Your incoming
mail server will be able to put mail directly into the IMAP server's
data store - and Hey Presto! you've got a resilient setup and you can
use multiple clients to get at your mail.

But I will just add that your level of mail is easily handled by
Evolution.  There should not be any limit that you will be able to
reach so long as your mail store is set to Maildir which has been the
default for a long time.

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Evolution plug-in for word count?

[Pete Biggs]

On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 13:04 +, Adam Hardy via evolution-list wrote:
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Pete Biggs 
> > To: evolution-list@gnome.org
> > Subject: Re: [Evolution] Evolution plug-in for word count?
> > Date: 05/11/22 02:05:13
> > 
> > On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 23:51 +, Mike wrote:
> > >  
> > > I will but I really think this is a matter of evolution messing
> > > up on
> > > the import of a very large backup file from another computer. 
> > > 
> > > It's a guess, but one informed by forty-five years in IT and five
> > > years retired and still dealing with IT.  The original VM
> > > evolution
> > > imported the PSTs, not an evolution backup. 
> > 
> > I think your quoting and replying is a bit screwed up ...
> 
> I second that. I guess I have a right to being disappointed after
> seeing so many answers to my original question

Quite.  But to make you slightly less disappointed - I don't think
there is a direct method of doing what you want, but as a one-off I
would probably highlight,then cut or right-click the text into an
editor. All bets are off if it's an HTML formatted bit of text.

P.
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[Evolution] Why are my messages being tagged as spam and being moderated? on this list??

[Pete Biggs]

Camels and straws come to mind ...


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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Pete Biggs]

Not that it really matters now, but top-posting & HTML mail is frowned
on here ...

And your quoting levels are screwed up ...

And you really should trim posts to just relevant stuff.  You aren't
inhabiting an Outlook only world these days ...

On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 23:46 +, Mike wrote:
> > Yes the VM is, and was, off.
> > 
> > And anyway, both are set to leave mail on the server for six days
> > during this rollout of the new platform. So it should not make a
> > difference. :-) I have a mail app running on my Adroid Cell phone
> > and it loaded mail right along with MS Outlook for many years
> > without an issue. So I fail to see how that would or should matter.

Because sometimes another application grabs an email and marks it as
read before your Evolution can see it. 

Anyway, in another email that seems to have been tagged as spam and is
awaiting moderation I said that you need to look at the bar above the
message list and make sure the "Show:" drop down says "All Messages"
and not something like "Read Messages".

But I see yet another of my messages has been tagged as spam for no
good reason.  You might, eventually, see this message ...

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Evolution plug-in for word count?

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 23:51 +, Mike wrote:
>  
> I will but I really think this is a matter of evolution messing up on
> the import of a very large backup file from another computer. 
> 
> It's a guess, but one informed by forty-five years in IT and five
> years retired and still dealing with IT.  The original VM evolution
> imported the PSTs, not an evolution backup. 

I think your quoting and replying is a bit screwed up ...




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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:23 +, Mike wrote:
> This is my first post here and it is a long one.
> 
> I did look at the index of previous posts but there is no way to
> search through all of them, so I truly do apologize in advance... 

Go to 

 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/

and there's a search box at the top.

> 
> 
> On the new platform, with the data imported (and all the data is
> there) only a day after I imported it, it no longer displayed any new
> mail.
> 
> It says there is new mail via a notification popup, but there is
> nothing in the inbox or anywhere else.

Help -> Contents -> Common Mail Questions 
 -> I cannot see some emails

Primarily check that you don't have any search terms imposed and that
the Show: next to the search box is set to "All Messages".


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Weird menu bar above menu bar

[Pete Biggs]

Doesn't anyone read archives or past posts anymore. 


On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 10:07 +, Krauß, Peter (SCC) via evolution-
list wrote:
> Hello folks,
> 
> since my last system update I have a weird menu bar above the actual
> menu bar (actual menu bar is the one, that has the drop down menus
> "File", "Edit", "View" etc.; the weird menu bar is buttons for "Compose
> " and "Send & Receive" and has the window title in the middle).
> I attached a screenshot about it.
> 
> It's a bit annoying, it uses quite a lot of screen space and having
> those buttons in an extra row seems redundant. I wanted them back in
> the tool bar.
> 
> So, is there any way to get this back to how it was? Is it related to
> Evolution? Or maybe to gtk?
> 

To save you the bother of looking ...

From a few days ago:

 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-November/msg1.html

or a bit further back:

 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00098.html

 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-September/msg00023.html

It's called Client Side Decoration. Is part of Gnome going forward and
has been used on other apps for a long time.  It just seems to be more
distuptive/divisive on Evolution. Discussion here:

 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/-/issues/2039

and you can get the old interface back with:

   gsettings set org.gnome.evolution.shell use-header-bar false

and restart Evolution.

But get used to it, I suspect that setting won't work forever.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Has somebody still a GNOME Discourse account?

[Pete Biggs]

>   Hi,
>   
>   I wonder if whitespaces are kept by the plain text
>   part of the Discourse's multipart messages, if the
>   body of an email send to Discourse does start and end
>   with a line containing three times the tilde or
>   whatever else the used markdown implementation
>   provides for code.

Apparently plain text is actually interpreted as Markdown.  You can
mark a block as code by surrounding it with three backticks (a "Fenced
Code Block") or by indenting by 4 spaces.

I presume though that if it's a multipart message, the content used in
the post will be the HTML bit, not the plain text bit.

>   
>   It might look disgusting as a forum post, probably
>   like syntax highlighted code, but might provide a
>   proper formatted plain text for emails.

Personally I think plain text emails should be rendered as such. If
Markdown elements are detected, then render it as Markdown.

>   
>   Is somebody who still has got an account interested to
>   test it?
>   
I haven't tested it, just reflecting what people have said and by
looking up the Markdown reference manual.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-10-31 at 03:49 +0100, Ángel wrote:
> On 2022-10-26 at 12:00 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > That's interesting. It looks like Gnome are using an old version of
> > Discourse then.
> > 
> > The comments about categories and topics is interesting. I asked if
> > it were possible to create sub-categories in the Applications
> > category and the answer was a complete and resounding NO.
> 
> I think you refer to 
> https://discourse.gnome.org/t/sub-categories/11733/6

Yes, that's the one.  

I think there was a couple of things that peeved me about that
discussion. Clearly they don't want anything to do with mailing lists,
nor do they seem to really care about the transition - "this is what we
are providing, live with it", if you don't like it, find somewhere
else. I fear that it's the kid with a ball - it's my ball, so we are
going to play by my rules - and the kid is still playing by their rules
as they kick the ball against the wall on their own.

The comments also about them providing the Gnome ecosystem, that
Evolution lives with in, for free, and so we should be a damn sight
more grateful about it. I feel that the contribution that *we* provide
for free in supporting the applications that makes Gnome what it is has
been deftly overlooked in all this. This list has provided a focus for
user support of Evolution and has many people with decades of
experience of using it. The support will almost certainly now become
fragmented: There will be a new mailing list which may, or may not,
fly; there will be Discourse that Gnome (not Evolution) stalwarts will
use - but not sure users will ever find it; but I think most support
will be via the distro forums now.


> 
> 
> > 
> > Plain text emails going into the system should be just that. I send
> > them as plain text not as markdown. If I wanted to give them some
> > form of extra formatting I would use HTML. Can't text just be
> > interpreted as text.
> 
> Plain text emails often use _some_ symbols for *emphasis*.
> While there is no clear standard for that, interpreting them as
> markdown isn't that an odd choice.

It looks like in Discourse the plain text emails are shoved into an
HTML container without any further processing when displayed. So all
the white space is collapsed and a variable width font is used
destroying any semblance of formatting.  If they just surrounded plain
text with   tags it would be better.

I have nothing against Markdown and I happily use it other on-line
things - but not email.

> 
> 
> That would be sensible. Although markdown should be mostly backwards
> compatible when feed with plaintext.
> 
Yes, Markdown is - but Discourse seems to just take the Markdown
elements, and only those elements and change them into the equivalent
HTML leaving the rest of the text to the whims of a browser.

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Printing an email to PDF file mystery

[Pete Biggs]

On Thu, 2022-10-27 at 19:31 +0100, Adam Hardy via evolution-list wrote:
> I'm trying to print an email to a PDF file using CTRL+p and choosing
> "Print to File" with output format "PDF". 
> 
> I'm pretty certain I've done this before without issue, but this time
> I couldn't find the file anywhere, and definitely not in the home
> directory where the dialog had proposed to put it by default.
> 
> I then tried printing it again and mysteriously, the print dialog
> said the file already existed and asked if I wanted to overwrite it. 
> 
> I ran a "find /" on my whole system and couldn't find it. 
> 
> I'm running Evolution 3.44.4 (by Flathub.org) with flatpak on Linux
> Mint Cinnamon. I suspect this has something to do with flatpak
> because I had a similar wierdness with Signal flatpak and saving
> images to disk. 
> 
> Are the files really there? How do I find them? 
> 

This was asked a few months ago:

 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-May/msg00016.html

and it looks like it's down to a bug

 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=202363

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 11:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 13:09 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > 
> > > They do, an example set of headers from one of the replies I got
> > > recently:
> > > 
> > > Reply-To: GNOME Discourse
> > > <03e7e14d32e53136f623f8ab8e9...@discourse.gnome.org>
> > > Message-ID:
> > > 
> > > References: 
> > 
> > The threading information needs some serious work. The References:
> > header doesn't match up with the message being replied to, in fact
> > the
> > only consistent reference is to the
> > topic/xx...@discourse.gnome.org ID.
> > Consequently there's no real threading in the mail from Discourse,
> > everything is at the same level underneath the first mail - and it
> > doesn't take much for not even that to work.
> > 
> > 
> > And I still can't find out how to get an email copy of my own posts.
> > Is
> > that even possible?
> 
> I mentioned your objections in a post to the Fedora Users list (which
> uses Mailman3), and this was a reply from one of its users:
> 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/us...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/JUIEBVLICRHOEW6IQ34QS4445N6CNNVN/
> 
That's interesting. It looks like Gnome are using an old version of
Discourse then.

The comments about categories and topics is interesting. I asked if it
were possible to create sub-categories in the Applications category and
the answer was a complete and resounding NO. It seems to me that they
think users/we/contributors should be interested in the whole of the
Gnome ecosystem not just one bit of it.  This is a Gnome Discourse
issue, not a Discourse issue.

Similarly with sporadic emails - that's a Gnome infrastructure thing.

Plain text emails going into the system should be just that. I send
them as plain text not as markdown. If I wanted to give them some form
of extra formatting I would use HTML. Can't text just be interpreted as
text. Or it should at least be a bit more intelligent about it - if
there are markdown elements, interpret it as markdown, otherwise it's
plain text.

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> I have worked with a number of professional organizations that are
> maintained primarily by volunteer staff and effort.  The "powers that
> be" are usually people who are doing a lot of work for free -- even if
> the people at the very top are being paid a little.  Sometimes that's
> because they believe in a "cause," sometimes because they like being
> the expert at something, sometimes because they like being a useful
> part of an organization.   But whatever the gain, it's still for free.

Except Gnome is a Foundation and it is supported by a large number of
very large tech companies. Most of the infrastructure is provided by
Redhat and they have a large presence on the Gnome Foundation board.

The people are not volunteers. They are paid either by the Foundation
through donations or are seconded to the role by their employer.
Companies such as Redhat rely so much on Gnome, it is in their best
interests to keep it running smoothly.

That's not to say that there aren't volunteers involved, of course
there is, but the decisions such as this come from the Foundation Board
which consists of representatives from the sponsors and elected people
from the community. 

I think what disappoints me most is that some of the people have roles
that include community engagement, and that has clearly not happened.
There was never any discussion about this as far as any of the mailing
list members were aware. It just landed on our doorstep.

> 
> I strongly suspect that the reason this change is being made is not for
> some nefarious "control" reason or some bad goal.  I suspect that its
> about making it easier for whoever is volunteering to keep this stuff
> going.

*I* don't think it is for control. I think it's because nobody was
interested in dealing with the issues of Mailman within the Foundation.
They had a tool - Discourse - that looked to them to be perfectly
adequate and decided that there was no reason to spend resources and
manpower on keeping the lists going. I really get the feeling that they
are bewildered by the push-back they are getting from some of the
mailing lists.

I think some of the decision has been driven by the perception that
mailing lists are "old technology" and have had their day. Comments
I've seen in other places clearly show that email is looked down on as
being inferior to other messaging platforms. The problem with following
fads such as this is that there'll be another one along soon. 

Ultimately, as with all big institutions and change, there is no real
concern over individuals. The attitude is often "make the change and
fix the issues after" or "they'll grouch but they'll get over it - we
might break some things but overall it will be worth it"; unfortunately
the "some things" may be a minor part of the whole, but they are
everything to some individuals.

> 
> The solution is almost never for non-volunteers to grumble.  The
> solution is usually to become that free labor and be the guy or gal who
> says "Sure, as long as it's mailman3."

Or walk away knowing that there's no point in continuing.

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org

[Pete Biggs]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:45 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 12:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > The PTB would all say that this is not abrupt.
>   ^^^
>   Pass the bong :D
> 
> What is PTB for?

The "Powers That Be". Usually reserved for faceless people who make
decisions for what they perceive to be the best interests of other
people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_powers_that_be#:~:text=In%20idiomatic%20English%2C%20%22the%20powers,rather%20than%20a%20subjunctive%20be.


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org

[Pete Biggs]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 06:50 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote:
> What other Gnome lists (analogous to evolution-list) are currently
> scrambling with the abrupt decision to switch to discourse?
> 

The full list is at 

  https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo

with archives here

  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/

Many of the lists are probably not active - certainly the gnome-* lists
would almost certainly already be using Discourse and many of the
others are extremely low volume and would probably be better suited to
Discourse.  But they are all being turned off in 7 days.

Interestingly there is no mention on mail.gnome.org that the lists are
going away!

The PTB would all say that this is not abrupt. They've been planning
this for a long time and we would have known if we were good Gnome
citizens and looked at the correct lists. It's our own fault for not
planning ahead.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Pete Biggs]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 02:24 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 22:08 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > I thought I would put together some of my thoughts about using
> > > Discourse that I have gained in just a day of using it. A day is not
> > > very long and I may not have fully understood everything - but there
> > > again, I am, apparently, the top poster on the topic with most
> > > replies
> > > in the Application category on Gnome Discourse!
> > 
> > Well said. I agree with all of this.
> > 
> 
> And it's clear from posts on the forum that they really don't want us
> there on any terms other than being well behaved, compliant members of
> the Gnome community.
> 
> Sad, but I think the jury has come to their decision.
> 

I hope that Gnome is happy to have destroyed a vibrant, helpful support
community. For what? Because they can't be arsed to deal with spam;
because we didn't fit in with their vision of how support should be
provided; because we aren't good Gnome citizens.

We were sold a pig-in-a-poke. This is what one of the admins of the
forum said:

   Yes: Discourse is not a good mailing list software. It’s predicated
   on the idea that you can use email to interact with it, but it’s not
   the main interaction model. Tools like moderation and community
   management are based on interacting through the web UI. Can
   Discourse be fixed? Of course: it’s software, it can do anything.
   Plus, it’s open source software, so it can be fixed by anybody. If
   people are willing to work on it, I’m sure it’s going to improve
   that particular side, and maybe it’ll be a good replacement for
   mailman. Are GNOME admins going to do that? No, I don’t think they
   will.
   
The "configure once and then just use email" was a lie.

To continue the Douglas Adams quotes: 

"So long and thanks for all the fish".

Pete

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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Pete Biggs]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 22:08 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > I thought I would put together some of my thoughts about using
> > Discourse that I have gained in just a day of using it. A day is not
> > very long and I may not have fully understood everything - but there
> > again, I am, apparently, the top poster on the topic with most
> > replies
> > in the Application category on Gnome Discourse!
> 
> Well said. I agree with all of this.
> 

And it's clear from posts on the forum that they really don't want us
there on any terms other than being well behaved, compliant members of
the Gnome community.

Sad, but I think the jury has come to their decision.

P.

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[Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Pete Biggs]

I thought I would put together some of my thoughts about using
Discourse that I have gained in just a day of using it. A day is not
very long and I may not have fully understood everything - but there
again, I am, apparently, the top poster on the topic with most replies
in the Application category on Gnome Discourse!

I'm sorry, but this will be a lengthy post.  TL;DR: I'm not convinced
that Discourse is a useful replacement for a mailing list.

First, a thought about the demise of the Mailman mailing list. From
what I can see the excuses are just that. Redhat use Mailman for some
of their big lists - the CentOS list uses Mailman for instance. If the
future of Mailman was in doubt, they would have plans in place!  Spam
is largely a solved problem these days - various accounts I have use
different spam flagging techniques and they all function perfectly
adequately - from personal SpamAssassin to high volume corporate spam
and malware blocking.  They just didn't want to have mailing lists
anymore.

Using the forum.
===

My issues are largely down to not particularly liking forum type
things. I don't think all are exclusive to Discourse:

   Posts are displayed linearly and no option to have a tree-like message
   list.
   
   You can show the replies to a message, but you can't see their replies.
   It looses context very quickly. Similarly you can only show the message
   that a reply refers to and no more than that.  In a large discussion,
   if people don't quote anything, it's impossible to know what they are
   replying to without furiously clicking around and scrolling.
   
   OK for quick discussions - up to 5-10 posts. Beyond that it becomes
   difficult to follow.  Certainly seems to not be suitable for lengthy 
   technical discussions.
   
   Sub-categories would make things easier, but are not wanted
 https://discourse.gnome.org/t/sub-categories/11733
 
   Gamification of the whole thing is puerile and annoying.  I do not see
   it as an achievement to gain "badges" and nor do I strive to earn more.


As a mailing list replacement.
=

We have been told that we just need to login once to Discourse and set
things up, then all interaction will be by email and we won't notice
any difference. Really? What planet are they on?

   No topic tags on emails. So no easy way to filter topics. If you
   watch more than one topic, all mails are the same. 
   
   Own posts not notified of. It removes context for a mailing list. I
   keep copies of mailing list posts as a sort of private archive -
   mainly so I can see what I've answered to queries before. That's
   gone.
   
   Slow or sporadic email notifications make discussion difficult.
   
   No or broken threading on emails. This one is so annoying.  Doesn't
   any of the people who use Discourse use threading anywhere. Context
   is everything.
   
   Plain text emails sent to Discourse have formatting mangled (white 
   space isn't honoured). There's no point in nicely formatting plain
   text, it will be mangled. (These indents will be lost - if I sent it
   there.)
   
   Mails are really just notifications - there's no nested quoting of
   content to provide context. You can choose to have previous replies 
   at bottom or include an excerpt, but that's not contextual quoting.

I'm sure there is much more. It would be nice if there was someone who
engaged with us properly a while ago to sort things out, but all I've
had so far is to point me to meta.discourse.org - but that is clearly
aimed at admins and not users.

Clearly many of my issues are because I'm coming from a mail / mailing
list perspective. But if we hadn't been told that it was a direct
replacement, and if we hadn't been told to shutup and just use it, then
I would have perhaps been a bit more lenient. But also, I would never
have started using it in the first place.

Is it a direct mailing list replacement? Definitely not.

Is it useful as a community support tool? Possibly.

Will I continue to use it? Jury is out on that one.

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Oh for heavens sake ....

[Pete Biggs]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 10:52 +0200, Philippe Lefèvre wrote:
> Yes, this "Social Networks" orientation with these likes, badges and
> other school gadgets is really appalling even though today's "majors"
> (Facebook, Apple etc ...) are having a field day capturing kids (...
> and big kids).
> 
> An option in one's own personal Evolution profile to remove this
> useless and uninteresting stuff would be welcome.
> 
That's not really possible - as far as I can see the levels and badges
are a fundamental part of what Discourse is.

It's called "gamification".

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution crashes when trying to compose email

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Replying to myself:  I Googled how to install the most recent Flatpak,
> and it appears to be working properly now.  Thanks, Pete, for pointing
> me in the right direction!
> 
Flatpak Evo versions have got much better recently, but you still need
to realise that they run in their own sandbox and don't interact the
same as native apps. But if it works for you, go for it, but there can
be different issues.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution crashes when trying to compose email

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 19:58 -0400, Ken Wright wrote:
> On 2022-10-21 19:45, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > 
> > > I just upgraded to Ubuntu 22.10 and Evolution 3.46.0-2, and all of a
> > > sudden I can't compose, send, or reply without Evo crashing.  There's
> > > obviously something wrong in the installation, but I'm a hardware 
> > > geek,
> > > not a software guru.  Can anyone shed any light on this issue?  
> > > Further
> > > details upon request.
> > > 
> > There's been quite a few reports of crashing with that version.  You
> > don't say what sort of crash you see, but is it anything like
> > 
> >  https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libsoup/-/issues/308
> > 
> > which was fixed about a week ago but may take sometime to filter down
> > to the distros.
> 
> Okay, you may now mock the hardware geek, because nothing at that link 
> made the slightest bit of sense to me.

No mocking from me - I would much rather be bit blasting I2C hardware.

> 
> Now, let me describe the crash.  It starts with the program stopping, 
> and after a minute or two I get the option to Wait or Force Quit.  If I 
> Wait, I get the same message again a few seconds later.  Force Quit does 
> what it says it will, and terminates the program.

You need to start Evolution from the command line and it will show the
errors.

> 
> If the problem was fixed a week ago, is there a Flatpak I can install 
> that works?  I can continue using RoundCube if I need to, but I'd rather 
> use Evo.
> 
The problem with fixing things at the source level is that unless it's
a security bug, it often takes a while to filter through to updates to
apps in distros. 

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Evolution crashes when trying to compose email

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> I just upgraded to Ubuntu 22.10 and Evolution 3.46.0-2, and all of a 
> sudden I can't compose, send, or reply without Evo crashing.  There's 
> obviously something wrong in the installation, but I'm a hardware geek, 
> not a software guru.  Can anyone shed any light on this issue?  Further 
> details upon request.
> 
There's been quite a few reports of crashing with that version.  You
don't say what sort of crash you see, but is it anything like

 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libsoup/-/issues/308

which was fixed about a week ago but may take sometime to filter down
to the distros.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Oh for heavens sake ....

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 15:03 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> What new fresh hell is this:
> 
>We appreciate your enthusiasm, keep it up! That said, for the safety
>of our community, you’ve reached the maximum number of replies a new
>user can create on their first day. Please wait 21 hours and you’ll
>be able to create more replies.
> 
> I can't even reply to my own Topic in "Site Feedback".
> 
> I wondered why my email reply to a user I WAS TRYING TO HELP hadn't
> appeared. It looks like it was just silently dropped.

The frustration is that I can see posts that I could comment on and
help people with following what I've found today, but I can't because
I've been banned for 21 hours - for what? Being too enthusiastic and
trying to get to grips with the system in the disgustingly short
timescale we've been given; trying to sort out the issues even though
we were told it just works and that it's an oven-ready, pain-free
solution.

20 years of helping people with Evolution and I've been told to sit
down at the back of the class because I'm making too much noise.

The first day of using this thing does not appear to have been an
overwhelming success. For anyone.

I may, or may not, return after being released from the sin-bin.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 12:11 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> Sorin Srbu via evolution-list said on Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:50:23 +
> 
> 
> > Ah, seems like Discourse closes topics after fourteen days with no
> > traffic. Might this be a problem when revisiting the same topic but
> > later? 
> 
> Yes.
> 
It's actually a month now - don't know if that just the Evolution tag
or what.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Oh for heavens sake ....

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 16:26 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:10 +, Sorin Srbu via evolution-list wrote:
> > I'm pretty sure you'll get a badge by tomorrow for your effort today!
> > ;-)
> 
> He's close to the next level :D.
> 
Close to something ... I can assure this subject of this was not the
first thing I typed.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 16:04 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 21.10.2022 o godz. 14:57:04 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > 
> > As others have said, Evolution is primarily an email client, and it
> > makes sense that its main support forum should be a properly managed
> > mailing list.
> 
> A quick and simple question: who is in position to decide to move this list
> to another mailing list, hosted elsewhere? There have been already a few
> propositions on this list for an alternative. Who is the "owner" of this
> list who can decide about the move?

I think the issue is largely that Evolution is a Gnome application. Any
"official" list - i.e. mentioned in documentation and so on - should,
or really can only, be under the auspices of the Gnome organisation. If
it's not then it's just some other random mailing list.

Gnome users will consistently be pointed towards Discourse as the route
for help and support; the developers will primarily be using Discourse
as their route to helping people and receiving feedback. No matter how
often people are told that "the helpful people are over there", it
would still be unofficial and unlikely to gain traction. 

P.
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[Evolution] Oh for heavens sake ....

[Pete Biggs]

What new fresh hell is this:

   We appreciate your enthusiasm, keep it up! That said, for the safety
   of our community, you’ve reached the maximum number of replies a new
   user can create on their first day. Please wait 21 hours and you’ll
   be able to create more replies.

I can't even reply to my own Topic in "Site Feedback".

I wondered why my email reply to a user I WAS TRYING TO HELP hadn't
appeared. It looks like it was just silently dropped.
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Re: [Evolution] Discourse -- Insufficient Trust Level

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:25 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> discourse is crap². I'm forwarding an original HTML email [1].
> 
> 
> We’re sorry, but your email message to
> [“applicati...@discourse.gnome.org”] (titled [Evolution] The irks and
> quirks of the migration from evolution-list to discourse) didn’t
> work.
> Your account does not have the required trust level to post new
> topics to this email address. If you believe this is an error,
> contact a staff member.
>                                                              

Yup. You're a new user so not trusted to do things. See 

https://blog.discourse.org/2018/06/understanding-discourse-trust-levels/

It doesn't take much to get to Level 1 - I've got there already - but
all new users start at Level 0, which is heavily restricted "for safety
– both theirs and yours".

Perhaps it's just because I'm old and been doing these things a long
time, but the faux jolliness of all this really grates. This is what I
got on going up a level: 

   Hey there. We see you’ve been busy reading, which is fantastic, so
   we’ve promoted you up a trust level!
   
   We’re really glad you’re spending time with us and we’d love to know
   more about you. Take a moment to fill out your profile, or feel free to
   start a new topic.

And this whole "badge" thing - https://discourse.gnome.org/badges - I
just don't ing care.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> They do, an example set of headers from one of the replies I got
> recently:
> 
> Reply-To: GNOME Discourse
> <03e7e14d32e53136f623f8ab8e9...@discourse.gnome.org>
> Message-ID: 
> References: 

The threading information needs some serious work. The References:
header doesn't match up with the message being replied to, in fact the
only consistent reference is to the topic/xx...@discourse.gnome.org ID.
Consequently there's no real threading in the mail from Discourse,
everything is at the same level underneath the first mail - and it
doesn't take much for not even that to work.


And I still can't find out how to get an email copy of my own posts. Is
that even possible?

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Speaking of which, found this thread on Discourse. 
> Thanks to Pete Biggs, if you're here!

Always ... well until the demise.


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Tagging means adding a tag to a specific thread that is created to
> make sure it can easily be filtered out and most importantly it can
> easily be configured as a watcher (i.e the process that allows you to
> receive an email when a new email / response has been added to a
> thread). Our Discourse instance already has a tag called "evolution",
> which can be used to tag a specific thread at creation time (or later
> on in the process) to make sure it gets properly filtered for
> contributors that are only interested in mc conversations. Each
> Discourse category comes with an email endpoint, let's say you want
> to create a new thread under the Applications category, you can send
> an email to the applicati...@discourse.gnome.org email and it gets
> automatically posted to Discourse, like you do today with Mailman. In
> the background we can configure an automatic tag, that is whenever
> the Evolution or Evo (or anything you prefer) word is mentioned
> (similar to what happens today with Mailman list name tag on
> subjects) the "evolution" tag is automatically added to your thread,
> that eases consumption by your contributors which have watchers
> defined for the "evolution" tag.

So, the emails from Discourse come with a category label, not a tag
label. i.e. the emails have a subject of "[Applications] ".  There
doesn't seem to be any indication in the headers of the Tag(s) that
caused the notification email to be sent. 

If someone is interested in more than one Gnome application, as far as
I can see there's no way of filtering the two different "lists".

Is this correct or am I missing something?


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Automatic tagging as "important"

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 11:44 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 09:07 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > Out of interest, does it happen for other people on Evolution?
> 
>   Hi,
> no, not for me. Andrea's mail is shown here as a regular mail, no Label
> (evolution's terminology) is set, neither the flag is set.
> 
> No idea what could do that. Evo on its own surely not, not
> intentionally.

OK. So it's in my configuration somewhere. I suspect it's a side effect
of a filter, but I'm damned if I can find it. 

Thanks everyone for your help and thoughts.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

BTW, the tradition and expectation of this list is "no top posting",
"no html mails" and "trim your posts".  But I suppose that's a moot
point now.

I'm trying to work out how I'm going to deal with this - we've been
told to shut up and just do it, so I am ...

> 
> Tagging means adding a tag to a specific thread that is created to
> make sure it can easily be filtered out and most importantly it can
> easily be configured as a watcher (i.e the process that allows you to
> receive an email when a new email / response has been added to a
> thread). Our Discourse instance already has a tag called "evolution",
> which can be used to tag a specific thread at creation time (or later
> on in the process) to make sure it gets properly filtered for
> contributors that are only interested in mc conversations. Each
> Discourse category comes with an email endpoint, let's say you want
> to create a new thread under the Applications category, you can send
> an email to the applicati...@discourse.gnome.org email and it gets
> automatically posted to Discourse, like you do today with Mailman. In
> the background we can configure an automatic tag, that is whenever
> the Evolution or Evo (or anything you prefer) word is mentioned
> (similar to what happens today with Mailman list name tag on
> subjects) the "evolution" tag is automatically added to your thread,
> that eases consumption by your contributors which have watchers
> defined for the "evolution" tag.

So there is no specific "category" for Evolution. We can't directly
mail to, say, evolut...@discourse.gnome.org? It relies on some behind
the scenes automation to correctly tag a message?  What happens when
someone mentions "the evolution of evince as a PDF viewer", will that
get tagged as well?  Does the automation only apply to incoming mail or
would any web posts also get auto-tagged?

> 
> I'm more than happy to work with you guys to ease this transition.
> But please keep in mind that nobody is forcing you to use a web
> forum, Discourse (NOT Discord) can also work as a plain mailing list

But it really looks like this is a web forum thing that can notify you
of posts, but with an incoming email parser stuck on the side for those
that really must use email.  It doesn't have the feel of something that
has been designed as a mailing list replacement at its heart.


> (please see Andre's mail [1] around this), so don't be alarmed.
> 

We are not alarmed. We are dismayed and annoyed at the precipitous
nature of this announcement. 

P.


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Re: [Evolution] Automatic tagging as "important"

[Pete Biggs]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 17:33 -0500, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 23:10 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > No, there's no headers like that. I was wondering if there is some
> > logic somewhere that parses the subject for keywords like
> > "Announcement:"!
> > 
> > Thanks for your thoughts on it.
> > 
> > P.
> 
> Only thing I can think of is maybe your using IMAP and it "labels"
> mails as important like gmail does? Yes it's annoying behavior. 
> 

It's a label so internal to Evolution - the only thing that my IMAP
server can do is to set a Flag, which I do for other things.  And I
have full control over my (personal) IMAP server so I'm fairly certain
it's not doing anything.

Out of interest, does it happen for other people on Evolution?

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Automatic tagging as "important"

[Pete Biggs]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 14:57 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 19:29 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > I had assumed it would be something like that. But what is the header
> > that controls it
> 
> I believe that checkbox adds this email header:
> 
>   Importance: high

No, there's no headers like that. I was wondering if there is some
logic somewhere that parses the subject for keywords like
"Announcement:"!

Thanks for your thoughts on it.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission has
> been communicated multiple times over the past few months, see [1]
> and [2],

Communicated to whom?

Have you ever read "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy"?

One glaring omission in [1] and [2] is *this* *list*. Are you expecting
everyone on this list to also be on the Gnome devel and foundation
lists? Many people who use this list don't even use Gnome, have no
interest in Gnome, nor really care about it. They just use Evolution
and want some help.

>  but what's even more discouraging is seeing users on your list

It's not my list. I'm just a user who has been trying to help people.

> mentioning we're switching to *Discord*, or others not even
> understanding Discourse has the same mailing list workflow that you
> have today but has some sugar added on top for people who like web
> forums and other features Discourse provides.

My experience of web forums is that the discussions are disjointed,
without any real threading, and it's difficult to follow detailed,
lengthy, discussions.  Does tacking a mail interface on to it alleviate
any of those issues?

Do the notifications mails from Discourse have threading information in
them? I don't see how it can if some posts are written on the forum and
some are email based.  Have these sorts of issues been thought about?
This is a mail client we are talking about here, we CARE about such
things.

> 
> 
> There's a subset of lists (the l10n ones) which have requested an
> exception from October's deadline, we can surely offer that in case
> you want some more time in order to migrate somewhere else or just
> give Discourse a try. But please, very please, let's just stop
> complaining for the sake of doing so and without having even tried
> using the new tool.

But if we try it and don't like it, what then? I presume there is no
other option under the auspices of Gnome? There's no point in lying
down in front of the bulldozer?


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Automatic tagging as "important"

[Pete Biggs]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 14:21 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 19:17 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > That announcement email seems to have been automatically tagged as
> > "important" on my systems (Evo 3.44.4).  I've noticed it happening
> > before but largely ignored it.  What is doing it? Is it a general
> > "feature" of something in Evolution or is it something I've set up or
> > configured.  I certainly can't see what's doing it.
> 
> If I understand what you're talking about, the *sender* chooses to mark
> the email as "important".  You don't do anything.
> 
> In the newfangled Evo interface if you look on the title bar of the
> composer window, on the right there's a little email icon with an
> exclamation mark in it.  If you hover it says "Set the message priority
> to high".  If you click it it will mean that your message is marked
> with high priority when the recipients receive it, however their MUA's
> choose to make that visible.

I had assumed it would be something like that. But what is the header
that controls it - all I can see is "Precedence: list".  It's annoying
because I use the "Flag" to indicate things that I need to deal with
and the "important" comes up as the same colour.

P.
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[Evolution] Automatic tagging as "important"

[Pete Biggs]

While I can still ask the list ...

That announcement email seems to have been automatically tagged as
"important" on my systems (Evo 3.44.4).  I've noticed it happening
before but largely ignored it.  What is doing it? Is it a general
"feature" of something in Evolution or is it something I've set up or
configured.  I certainly can't see what's doing it.

More importantly, how can I stop it happening - I want to be the
arbiter of what's important!

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> I am a moderator of the Evolution list, and this is the first I've
> heard of this. I think that 10 days notice of such a radical change is
> not reasonable. Most people here, including myself, will have no idea
> what this is about.

poc - as a moderator of the list, do you see the "major burden in
managing lists spam".  It's not the first time I've seen something be
shutdown with an excuse of "the spam, the spam, we can't cope".  Surely
spam tagging is a mature process these days.


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's
> Mailman platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major
> burden in managing lists spam). The deadline is currently set to the
> end of October 2022. Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate
> to GNOME's Discourse instance [1]. Neil made sure [2] to create a set
> of tags you can re-use to initiate a new topic in the new platform,
> if a tag is missing please reach out to me directly.

If this is real, then the "communicating" has been sadly lacking. This
is the first I've heard of it.


I'm sorry, but I find "Forum" type things, which I believe is what
Discourse is, not at all intuitive and I hate dealing with them. Is
there to be no way of contributing sensibly using email - yes, I've
read the post from "Jehan" - it looks like it's a distinct kludge to
interact with it via email.

20 years of helping the Evolution community and it looks like it's the
end.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Trouble with gnome evolution

[Pete Biggs]

>  I read the mails from the links you shared at
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2021-November/msg00155.html
>  So, I understand Google Contacts is no more directly usable and I
> have to add my Google AdressBook as a CardDav into Evolution. 
>  But I never get it working. 
>  I use : 
>  Type: CardDav 
>  Name: CardDav 
>  URL:
> https://www.googleapis.com/carddav/v1/principals/my_email_adr...@gmail.com
>  User: my_email_adr...@gmail.com 
>  
>  am I doing something wrong ? 
>  
Try looking at this answer from Milan:

 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-August/msg00026.html

I have a feeling that the best way to set it up is using File -> New ->
Collection account, but it may be that your Evolution version doesn't
support the changed Google interface yet.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Trouble with gnome evolution

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-10-17 at 18:41 +0200, Philippe Lefèvre wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I just started using Gnome Evolution 3.38.3-1 on Debian 11 to replace my 
> thunderbird installation.
> Everything works well so far but I can't use my Contacts book (and only 
> this) located at Google.
> 

Could you explain "can't use". Any errors?

> 
> Is this a known issue I could resolve on my side? Do I use a bad config 
> parameter?
> 

It's difficult to say if it's a known issue if you don't explain what
the issue is!  But is it what is described in

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2021-November/msg00155.html

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-January/msg00109.html

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-January/msg00117.html

amongst others.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] 3.46.0 interface question

[Pete Biggs]

On Sun, 2022-10-16 at 19:34 +0300, Tim Ehrenhaft via evolution-list
wrote:
> Evolution 3.46.0 (flathub) on Zorin 15.3
> 
> How do i get the previous interface back? Can't find a setting that's
> relevant.
> I'm not talking about preferences for composinig mail.. i'm talking
> about the interface ribbon at the top (titled mail, includes the
> min/mac/close buttons) that is now arrows and road signs that used to
> be text.. 

It's called "client side decorations" - "CSD". Like everything to do
with interface design and changes in general, it seems to be a bit
divisive to some people.

> 
> changing the interface text to icons has severely hampered my
> productivity.. i didn't become literate only to have to deal with
> cutsie graphics like an illiterate toddler.. 
>  
I'm curious. Do you read the menu and interface text each time to
decide what to press on or do you sort of just know what you need to
press with only a quick glance at the text?

To me, the "shape" of what is there is the most important - I don't
really care if it is a glyph made up of a "cutsie" icon or a series of
strokes that look like one or more letters. Either way one learns what
the glyph does.  I suppose it depends on how your mind is constructed.
(I used to be able to work with Chinese Windows - I don't know Chinese,
but I knew where all the menu items should be and what the icons look
like!)

And if you consider your icon set to be "cutsie", change the icon set
to something that more matches your sensibilities. 

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Mailing list?

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> It depends on the list manager configuration. On most mailing lists I'm
> subscribed to, if someone sends a message to the list with a Cc to me, I get
> two copies of the message: one sent directly to me and the other coming
> through the mailing list.

On Mailman lists it's a user selectable option.

> 
> And that's IMHO a correct behaviour and I *want* it that way. The messages
> should not disappear silently and the list manager behaviour described by
> you is something like silently dropping a message.

I *don't want* it that way.  I choose not to receive duplicate copies.
There's nothing sinister about it.  I don't like getting two copies,
you obviously do - so go into configuration for the mailing list and
switch off the "Avoid duplicate copies" option.

Personally, I wish I could turn off users doing Reply-all to mailing
lists.  IF I had the energy I would write a filter to bounce messages
back to the sender if I'm explicitly in the recipient list on mailing
list messages. 

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Mailing list?

[Pete Biggs]

> > 
> > How are folders marked as filled from a mailing list?
> 
> The "folders" don't know anything about it.  Folders are just
> containers and are content agnostic.

Sorry, replying to myself.  I should say though that some specific
folders have a special function - Trash, Sent, Junk etc. - and those
are not content agnostic. But those folder are designated with those
roles by the MUA, not by type of messages held in them. In Evolution
they are configured in Preferences -> Account -> Edit -> Defaults.
There is no such classification for folders to contain mailing list
messages.

P.




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Re: [Evolution] Mailing list?

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> How are folders marked as filled from a mailing list?

The "folders" don't know anything about it.  Folders are just
containers and are content agnostic.

> 
> If I want to post messages to mailing lists, from the correct folder I
> can use the menu option "Message->Mailing List->Post Message to List",
> which is fine, but only some mailing list folders let me reply to
> messages with "Message->Reply To List".  For some of my mailing list
> folders that option is greyed out!
> 
> How do I change that?
> 
> I know I *can* reply to the list by using "Reply To All", but why isn't
> the correct option always available?

OK. It's to do with the headers on the *message* nothing to do with the
folder the messages are in.  

Most mailing lists should add a bunch of headers as the messages get
sent out.  The Evolution list ones are:

   List-Id: The Evolution personal information management application

   List-Unsubscribe: ,

   List-Archive: 
   List-Post: 
   List-Help: 
   List-Subscribe: ,

   
These are what determine the ability of Evolution to "Reply-to-list".
If those headers are not present, the list handling options are greyed
out.

So, why are they not always there? Well it's a bit of a bugbear of mine
(and others).  If someone does a Reply-all to the list on one of my
messages their mail program will send out a number of messages: to the
list; to me; to anyone else. The list manager program sees that I am
CC'd on the message, so doesn't send me a copy as that would be a
duplicate - the result is that the only copy I receive doesn't have the
list headers on it.  *I* make sure that although I can't Reply-to-list,
I do Reply-all and edit the recipients so that only the list is
mentioned. It does means though that people will only get the mailing
list version but threading is broken by it. I can't do anything about
that because I don't have the mailing list message to reply to and
maintain the threading.

Evolution goes to quite a lot of lengths to try and do mailing list
messages correctly - but not all MUAs are similarly diligent and it's
often easier for the user to just hit Reply-all.

P.




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Re: [Evolution] weird bug: mismatch between the message list and preview pane

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> 4) I have the suspect that this bug is not dependent to the
> distribution of Evolution mail (native vs flatpak) but instead it could
> depend to the Imap implementation made by Yahoo which, I guess, is not
> strictly RFC compliant. But I'd need to move to another mail provider
> to prove this, so maybe i'll do it later. Meanwhile I can install the
> Evolution native package which is 3.44 at the moment (on Arch linux)
> and then copy all my settings under "canonical" paths (~/.config,
> ~/.cache and ~/.local/share). The purpose of this is to exclude (or
> not) that the weird mismatching bug I'm having is related to flatpak.

I think you should still put the number of concurrent connections to
'1' - some IMAP server implementations seem to not like multiple
connections.  It looks like each connection can retrieve different
things as if there is a lag between the results of an operation in one
connection being reflected in another connection.

P.




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Re: [Evolution] weird bug: mismatch between the message list and preview pane

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> IIUC you are asking for an option to rebuild the folder tree, hence I
> suspect you are using IMAP accounts. It's one of the reasons for me to
> stay with POP accounts, since those are completely free from such
> maintenance work on almost all MUAs, while there isn't a day without
> similar IMAP account related questions on at least one MUA's mailing
> list.

I think that's tremendously unfair. I've used IMAP based accounts for
many, many years and never had any issues with them. They are
infinitely more workable when you use more than one client - I
currently have something like 10 clients on different OS's and lots of
different MUAs and NEVER had any issues.

I also can't remember anyone recently having this issue with Evolution
- there's a message from a couple of years ago, but that was on a very,
very old version.

The OP appears to be using a very new Flatpack version (3.46.0). If it
were a native version I would say to find out where the message cache
is stored, shutdown Evolution fully, delete the cache, and restart. The
file locations are in the help.  But I don't know if the same file
locations apply to Flatpack - those installs live in a world of their
own.

BTW, I suspect that these sorts of issues are down to the IMAP server.
Some of the offerings from google, yahoo, office365 etc are not exactly
robust.  If you are having issues, then reduce the number of concurrent
connections to a single one (it's in the config) and that reduces the
likelihood of things getting confused *at the server end*.

P.




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Re: [Evolution] Stop Evolution Automatically Asking to Decrypt Messages

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-07 at 13:15 +, normsmail--- via evolution-list
wrote:
> I have Evolution installed on Linuxmint, I cannot find
> /org/gnome/evolution-data-server/camel-gpg-binary?

Please don't top post.

That is a dconf key, not a file path. 

You need to do the command exactly as I said (including the sequence of
quotes at the end):

 dconf write /org/gnome/evolution-data-server/camel-gpg-binary "'/bin/false'"

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Stop Evolution Automatically Asking to Decrypt Messages

[Pete Biggs]

On Sat, 2022-10-01 at 21:30 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia  1.10.2022 o godz. 14:21:45 Pete Biggs pisze:
> > 
> > BTW, putting that segment of a PGP encryption in your email causes
> > problems - my Evolution tried to decrypt it because it thought it
> > looked exactly like a PGP part of the message.
> 
> I think that's wrong. Evolution shouldn't try to decrypt the message if the
> MIME type of the message doesn't indicate that it is PGP encrypted.

Well you think wrong.  I'm confused as to why you would think I would
make something like that up.

P.

ps Look at the message source of the mail I'm referring to.

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Re: [Evolution] Logwatch reports segmentation faults in Evolution

[Pete Biggs]

On Sat, 2022-10-01 at 14:39 -0500, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-10-01 at 10:36 +0200, Andre Klapper via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2022-09-30 at 15:35 -0500, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
> > wrote:
> > > I did get these minor errors:
> > 
> > These are not "errors" but output. Apart from one line, they are
> > unrelated to Evolution. We still have no idea what "Logwatch" is.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > andre
> 
> "We still have no idea what "Logwatch" is" 
> UMmm Pete B from this list does he is the one who suggested the app in
> a previous email as something he uses.
> 

We don't all share the same knowledge. Just because I (I presume you
are talking about me) suggested it a while ago, it doesn't mean that
everyone remembers.


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Stop Evolution Automatically Asking to Decrypt Messages

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-09-30 at 13:58 +, normsmail--- via evolution-list
wrote:
> To clarify the problem:
> 
> I select a GPG encrypted email message to open.
> After selecting it to open I am automatically asked for a Ppassphrase. 
> I enter nothing and select CANCEL.
> The encrypted email message opens and I see the message unencrypted
> like below (sortened on purpose) and I also get the warning the message
> could not be decrypted.

No, that's not not an unencrypted message. That is an *encrypted*
message. The bits between the "BEGIN PGP MESSAGE" and "END PGP MESSAGE"
is the encrypted message in ASCII. That is how it is transmitted in the
email.  If you want to be pedantic, I think a more accurate description
would be it's undecrypted.

It may seem to be nitpicking, but saying that it's unencrypted implies
that the message was in plain text - i.e. you could see the decrypted
content.

BTW, putting that segment of a PGP encryption in your email causes
problems - my Evolution tried to decrypt it because it thought it
looked exactly like a PGP part of the message.

> What I am looking for is to be able to open the email message as a
> normal email without the prompt for a passphrase. Basically I want to
> "disable all GPG" in Evolution.
> 
Not that I can see. GPG is such a fundamental aspect of lots of
encryption on Linux that my system won't even let me remove it and
renaming the binary would break lots of things.

One thing that comes to mind is that there is a dconf key

 /org/gnome/evolution-data-server/camel-gpg-binary

you could try setting that to something like /bin/false:

  dconf write /org/gnome/evolution-data-server/camel-gpg-binary "'/bin/false'"

Hopefully then it will try to run the program to decrypt the message
and fail. 

CAVEAT - in big letters.  I haven't tried this, I don't use GPG.
Playing with dconf can get you into trouble.  Check what you type and
don't try and do anything totally outrageous. You can make things
unusable with dconf. If you don't know what you are doing, don't do it.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Stop Evolution Automatically Asking to Decrypt Messages

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> When I select to view the message it first asks for my passphrase, I
> select CANCEL and then it opens the email and shows the unencrypted
> message which is what I want, only without the request for passphrase
> first.

So just to clarify. The email will decrypt without entering a
passphrase?  

Does it always ask for a passphrase on all encrypted messages? 


What sort of encryption is it? GPG? And can you see what it is trying
to unlock when it asks for the passphrase?

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Reading emails and threading

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-09-26 at 08:11 -0500, c. marlow wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Sep 24, 2022, at 11:36 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Emails in threads are separate from each other, so I'm not sure what
> > you mean by that last sentence.
> > 
> > poc
> 
> I am talking about:
> 
> the text above is from you ^
> 
> If I hit REPLY TO LIST
> 
> My reply will be bundled / attached to the original email.

"Threading" as it is normally used in an email context is where emails
in the *message list* are grouped together with replies under the
message that they are replying to.  You can turn on and off the
threading in the message list with Ctrl-T or View->Group by Threads.

There's a version of "Threading" in things like Outlook that displays
related messages one under the other when viewing them.  But that's
just one of Outlook's oddities.

The only way your reply would be "attached" to the original message is
if you quote the message you are replying to - it is good practice to
quote the relevant parts of the message to give context.  Again, it is
a result of Outlook's defaults that it has become the "standard" to
include everything in your email and add your one or two lines at the
top.  That is not a good standard.

P.


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Re: [Evolution] New button no longer works

[Pete Biggs]

You need to tell us what version of Evolution you are using (Help ->
About)


> 
> But now, restarting Evolution no longer fixes the New button functionality: 
> Clicking
> the New button yields no blank email form. Now the only way I can make a new 
> email
> is to click an address from an existing email, change that address to the one 
> I want
> to send to, and then fill in the subject and message.
> 
If you run Evolution from the command line, do you get any messages
when you click on "New"?

P.

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Re: [Evolution] evolution keeps asking to recover drafts

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> "Do you want to recover unfinished message?
> 
> Evolutions quit unexpectedly while you were composing a new message. 
> Recovering the message will allow youto continue where you left off."
> 
> I want neither and that's why I saved it as a draft - I didn't "quit
> unexpectedly".
> 
> This is very annoying. There is a report of this happening with other
> users here:
> 
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/-/issues/1972

Did you read through that bug report?


It was closed as "Not Gnome" by Milan - it appears to be an Ubuntu
specific bug and is filed at 

  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/1983794

The Ubuntu people are working on a fix, but it isn't fixed yet. It's
not an issue with Evolution per se.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Forwarding a mail to action fraud that is potentially fraudulent

[Pete Biggs]

>  I'm not sure how Action Fraud expected this to work if forwarded mails are 
> rejected by
> the ISP (which seems sensible to me) - I'll recheck with their web site.

Their instructions are to use a screenshot.  They are aware of the
issues.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Forwarding a mail to action fraud that is potentially fraudulent

[Pete Biggs]

On Thu, 2022-09-15 at 14:49 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 15.09.2022 o godz. 12:22:13 Pete Biggs pisze:
> > 
> > The mail must be using different SMTP servers. It's unlikely that an
> > SMTP server would treat mail differently from different clients.
> 
> Unless the client on the phone encodes the forwarded mail in some way that
> causes the SMTP server not detect the fraudulent mail.

I would hope any decent SMTP server would be aware of this sort of
thing. Certainly all the ones I know can mime-decode and base64-decode
message bodies to get at the content.  If it were that easy to by-pass
the scanners the spammers would do nothing but send encoded mails. 

The only thing my scanners can't decode are password encrypted files -
on some it passes them with a warning, on others it rejects any
passworded content.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Freezing Preview pane

[Pete Biggs]

On Thu, 2022-09-15 at 13:23 +0200, Andre Klapper via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-09-15 at 07:42 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> > is the whole machine frozen, or only the Evolution, or only the
> > preview
> > panel itself? Is there a higher CPU usage when it freezes?
> 
> FYI I have seen this myself a few times in Evolution 3.42.x.
> The message preview pane freezes. Not Evolution; not the machine.
> Disabling and enabling it via Ctrl+M does not help.
> Restarting Evolution helps. Haven't found any pattern; also has
> happened with local mail on non-remote (POP) mail accounts.
> No high CPU usage. Wayland; mesa drivers, Fedora 35.
> 
I would concur.  I've occasionally seem message pain freezes and the
only way out is to restart Evolution. I've always put it down to
specific messages causing problems and I get round it by disabling the
preview and deleting the bad message - it's always some inconsequential
advertising thing and I suspect it's to do with bad HTML.  It happens
so rarely these days though.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Forwarding a mail to action fraud that is potentially fraudulent

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Yes, I'm using POP/SMTP - the message is :
> Data Command failed: Message contains malware (detected as 
> Sanesecurity.Phishing.Fake.Coin.29059.UNOFFICIAL)

That's definitely from your SMTP host, not Evolution.  

> > 
> I didn't use my brain - I have a different EMail client on my phone, so I've 
> just forwarded the message from there to
> see what happened. It appears to forward ok.
> 

OK. A few observations.  

The mail must be using different SMTP servers. It's unlikely that an
SMTP server would treat mail differently from different clients.

The fact that the SMTP service used by Evolution detects the phishing
email, but it's not being detected before it got delivered to you
indicates that they are two different providers - it's not sensible
that it would only detect it on outgoing mail!

Personally, if it is detected by the outgoing SMTP server, and not the
incoming one, then I would have a serious look at your mail provider
and ask some questions. It may need some configuration setting to
reject or spam bin known spam/phish - things are complicated in this
respect if you use POP

Since the phishing attempt is detected by SANE, it's clearly a known
phish, so sending it to Action Fraud is not a priority. There is
guidance from NCSC about how to report phishing - including what to do
if your mail provider blocks it.  See:

 https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/collection/phishing-scams/report-scam-email

Two things to note: they don't need to see spam binned stuff & if in
doubt use a screen shot.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Is there a way to set the interface back to what it was?

[Pete Biggs]

On Tue, 2022-09-13 at 08:23 +0200, Andre Klapper via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-09-13 at 00:32 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > I presume you mean in the "Compose Message" window? Or is it
> > somewhere
> > else?  TBH it sounds like a bug - an application shouldn't put
> > anything
> > in the title bar of a window.
> > 
> 
> I'd disagree.
> Many GNOME applications have been doing so for ages as it saves screen
> estate. See attachments for examples of main windows.

I always thought that was a kludge to give more space for the text
window in applications, like editors, where you need the most text and
there was no where else to put the little used menus - I didn't realise
it was a conscious style decision. One word: yuk.


P.
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Re: [Evolution] Is there a way to set the interface back to what it was?

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-09-12 at 17:02 -0500, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:
> Hi List, 
> System info: Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid x86_64
> 5.19.0-1-amd64 
> bash 5.2.0 
> DE: MATE 1.26.0 
> WM: Metacity (Marco) 
> Theme: Clearlooks [GTK2/3] 
> Icons: mate [GTK2/3] 
> CPU: AMD A6-7400K Radeon R5 2C+4G (2) @ 4.091GHz 
> GPU: AMD ATI Radeon R5 Graphics
> Evolution 3.45.3-2
> 
> I was updated to v3.45.3-2 from 3.44 
> 

I thought the odd version numbers were development versions.  Where did
you get 3.45.3-2 from?


> and I wish that the interface had
> stayed as it was.
> Now the send icon is in the Window title bar along with save as draft,
> and other changes that are pointless.

I presume you mean in the "Compose Message" window? Or is it somewhere
else?  TBH it sounds like a bug - an application shouldn't put anything
in the title bar of a window.

> 
> Is it possible to put everything back to the way it was before?
> I'm impaired visually and this is not the best idea for ease of use.
> The previous version(s) was well designed and very usable. This one is,
> well, far from desirable and has no real added functionality (that I've
> found so far)? 

If you got it from you distro's repository, then is there a mechanism
for downgrading a package?


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Outlook E-Mail groups

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Do you know if it is possible to see outlook exchange email groups in
> evolution in 3.44.4 ?
> 
Didn't you ask this question a couple of weeks ago?  Milan's answer
then is here:

 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-August/msg00093.html

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution

[Pete Biggs]

On Wed, 2022-08-31 at 11:22 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-08-31 at 09:57 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > In the past, when the config
> > was stored in dconf, it was a bit more complicated since the dconf
> > keys needed to be dumped and then backed up. But now everything is
> > stored in .config/evolution.
> 
>   Hi,
> for what it's worth, most of the things in the Preferences (and in
> other parts) are still stored in the GSettings, which usually means
> DConf, which the backup/restore does back up and restore. Without that
> the tweaks the users do in the Preferences would be lost.

Sorry, I was looking for where those settings were backed up but
couldn't find it.  I thought it would be under .config but I now see
that it's under .local/share.

Is backup-restore-gsettings.ini only generated when you create a backup
or is it part of the usual operation of Evolution?  Also, mine is over
2Mb, is that normal?

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> If the file size was too large for the file system, it still doesn't
> explain why there was no standard error stream and appropriate exit
> status. Such an event would have caused error messages.

I think you need to consider how the backup process is run.  Normally
people start Evolution from the GUI - click on an icon etc. The backup
process is that the when you click the menu item, it starts an external
program which closes Evolution and it's associated factories, does the
backup, then restarts Evolution.  In that process, because you didn't
start Evolution from the command line, there's nowhere for any messages
to appear, and because it restarts Evolution before terminating,
there's no return code to Evolution to indicate an error occurred and
there's no parent process to display the error. 


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution

[Pete Biggs]

On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 11:51 -0500, c. marlow wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 11:49 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> 
> > > > I would possibly go as far as to say that that particular
> > > > functionality
> > > > has run its course and could be consigned to the big bit-bucket
> > > > in
> > > > the
> > > > sky.  
> 
> SEVERELY DISAGREE... I'd go back to Claws if the backup / restore
> feature was removed from Evo.

What about if there was an external program - say something called
'evolution-backup' - that you could run to do a backup. Is it
absolutely necessary to have it as a menu item?

> 
> Even though I fully use IMAP now with Fastmail, I still use the
> Backup / Restore feature to restore the years of emails I have stored
> under " Saved on this computer" I think is what it says..  Also,  the
> backup and restore feature, restores not only my email but my account
> information too, to where when the restore is done, all I have to do
> is input my passwords and boom! I am back up and running in like 10
> sec.

There's nothing magical about the Evolution backup. It is just a gzip
tar file of .local/share/evolution (for the mail files) and
.config/evolution (for the configuration). In the past, when the config
was stored in dconf, it was a bit more complicated since the dconf keys
needed to be dumped and then backed up. But now everything is stored in
.config/evolution.  That's also why a much better way of dealing with
backups is to use standard backup procedures with versioning and so on
- then just restore the two directories from the nightly backups like
anything else you need to recover. 


P.

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Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution

[Pete Biggs]

On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 10:29 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > My guess is, that Evolution isn't the culprit, but tar is the
> > culprit.
> 
> The only reliable mechanism to verify a tar archive is valid is to
> table it.  :(
> 
> Table-After-Creation is a good rule.
> 
I know it's no solace to the OP, but my experience is that people don't
care about backups and their integrity until they need one and it
doesn't work.  No matter how many times you tell people to check the
backups, they never do - until that fateful day and they realise "I
should have listened".

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> I've suggested in the past that we should change the terminology and
> call it something else, but so far no-one has come up with a good
> alternative name. Any suggestions would be welcome.
> 
I agree entirely with you. I think the "backup/restore" is generally
abused rather than used - in that it used for things it was never meant
to be used for.

Even the real use for it (i.e. transferring settings to another
machine) is mis-used for syncing things between multiple machines by
some people. Yes, the argument of "it works so why not" is OK, except
when it no longer works when doing that and people grouch that
something broke.

I would possibly go as far as to say that that particular functionality
has run its course and could be consigned to the big bit-bucket in the
sky.  Perhaps take it off the main 'File' menu and change it to
something like "Save account settings" in the preferences and not
backup the actual stored messages.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Compose plain text emails that render well on MS Outlook

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> For most text paragraphs this looks acceptable, but some kinds of text,
> such as mail signatures, look pretty bad.  Is there anything I can do
> from Evolution side to attenuate the problem?  For example, is it
> possible to configure Evolution to use HTML for the signature only,
> while sending plain text for all else?  Any other workaround?
> 

The signature forms part of the text, it's not a different section of
the email, so it follows the same format as the email (or MIME part). 
I don't think Outlook even acknowledges the existence of the '--'
sig separator.

If your work requires you to use HTML emails, then I suspect it's a
battle not worth fighting. However when you use HTML, Evolution
surrounds the sig with   to try and maintain it's integrity
and that seems to work OK for me.  Perhaps you just need to adjust your
sig so that it looks OK after Outlook has done things to it.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Potential Issue caused by Update

[Pete Biggs]

On Wed, 2022-08-24 at 12:30 -0500, Michael Kenny via evolution-list
wrote:
> Ok, It is Wayland. Prior to the recent update to 3.44.4 everything
> was running fine using Wayland but mailto is no go on Wayland now.
> Tried a fourth device that never had Evolution on it with a fresh
> install of Flatpak and mailto didn't work. I swapped over to X11
> (which I should have done WA sooner due to the display server)
> and mailto works properly with some canberra gtk errors in the
> terminal. Swapped my Pop OS device to x11 after a reboot and mailto
> works again. So definitely a Wayland issue on the latest build. May
> just have to live with it since I use fractional scaling. 
> 

TBH it sounds like a bug.  You've done a lot of testing and narrowed
down a set of conditions that tickles this particular issue. i.e.
Wayland / Chrome / Flatpak Evolution. It's not an edge case as this
seems like it could be a fairly common combination. 

Presumably your first port of call should be to file a bug in your
distro bug tracker in case there are distro specific issues and to
allow them to verify the issue.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Potential Issue caused by Update

[Pete Biggs]

> I have Fedora installed and I use both Chrome and Firefox so if
> someone wants to tell me exactly what they want me to do as a test I
> am happy to do that.

You set the default applications like any other Gnome system, i.e.
Settings -> Default Applications.  Primarily for these purposes you
just need to set the Mail application to Evolution.

Mailto: links from web pages should now work.  Do they?

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Annoyance: Intermittently messages refuse to categorize themselves as read

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> > 
> > I suppose this is an IMAP account you see it with.
> 
> Yes it is. It's my local Dovecot IMAP server. If I knew more about IMAP, 
> perhaps I
> could go in and look at the message in Dovecot itself. One thing I could do 
> right
> now is open my IMAP with Claws-Mail and see whether Claws Mail considers it 
> unread.
> That would narrow the root cause scope to some degree. Thank you for the 
> suggestion.
> 
I seem to remember I used to have issues with my Dovecot server and
messages being marked as unread seemingly randomly. I'm trying to
remember how I fixed it - it was sometime ago!  Possibly make sure that
the number of concurrent connections is set to 1 - it's in the
"Receiving Options" bit of the account editor. 

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Potential Issue casued by Update

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> And when clicking a MailTo link I get this Chrome output when
> Evolution is the default:
> 
> gpg-agent[6]: directory '/home/michael/.gnupg' created
> gpg-agent[6]: directory '/home/michael/.gnupg/private-keys-v1.d'
> created
> gpg-agent: a gpg-agent is already running - not starting a new one
> Gtk-Message: 09:20:39.393: Failed to load module "appmenu-gtk-module"
> Failed to initialize gtk+: Cannot open display: 

If it can't open the display, then that is a fairly serious things -
there's no way that Evolution can start if it can't do that.  Are you
doing this directly on the console of the machine or is it a remote
session?  Are you running Xorg or Wayland?  Is the chrome running on a
different (virtual) machine?  Is chrome running in a sandbox?

> 
> 
> I don't recall what the previous version was but I think I will have
> to completely purge everything related to Evolution and start from
> scratch.

If it is just within the same major version (i.e. 3.44.x) then you
shouldn't need to wipe all your data.

> 
> Now when I try $ xdg-open mailto:user@no.where Evolution opens as
> expected to send an email and the output in terminal 

OK. So there's nothing wrong with Evolution. 

> 
> 
> I wonder if this a theme thing with Pop OS that broke Evolution
> somehow? Come to think of it Pop OS did update a few things
> 
I suspect that something did break, but not with Evolution. Has chrome
updated recently as well?

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Potential Issue casued by Update

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> I do not know how Chrome, I do not use it, but at least Firefox has
> Edit->Settings->Applications and when I search there for the "mailto"
> (quotes for clarity only), then it lets me choose the app to use, with
> indicated default, which is (possibly) taken from the system.
> 
Chrome has the option to allow web sites to request a change of handler
- i.e. so that a mailto: link can open gmail. If that is turned off,
then it uses the system one.  There's no way of setting a chrome
specific mailto: for a local app.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Potential Issue casued by Update

[Pete Biggs]

> > 
> > What does 
> > 
> >    xdg-mime query default 'x-scheme-handler/mailto'
> > 
> > say?  It should point to the desktop file that is used to start your
> > copy of Evolution.  Mine says "org.gnome.Evolution.desktop".  That
> > is,
> > as far as I know, how Chrome handles Mailto: links. 
> 
> Mine actually says:
> 
> userapp-Evolution-ZCM7LX.desktop
> 
> which I hadn't seen before. I wonder if it's a recent change. The file
> does exist under $HOME/.local/share/applications/
> 
I have one of those under ~/.local/share as well - it seems to be a
very truncated version of the system one under /usr/share/applications;
and much older as well. Also:

   $ grep Exec /usr/share/applications/org.gnome.Evolution.desktop
   Exec=evolution %U
   Exec=evolution -c current
   Exec=evolution mailto:
   Exec=evolution -c contacts
   Exec=evolution -c calendar
   Exec=evolution -c mail
   Exec=evolution -c memos
   Exec=evolution -c tasks
   
   $ grep Exec .local/share/applications/userapp-Evolution-1UF7A0.desktop
   Exec=evolution --component=mail %u
   
If it works, it works.  But it looks like the system one is the more
comprehensive, newer one.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Potential Issue casued by Update

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-08-22 at 14:32 -0500, Michael Kenny via evolution-list
wrote:
> My Flatpak of Evolution updated today and now my Mailto is not
> working from Chrome Version 104.0.5112.101 (.deb). Chrome is set as
> my default in Pop OS 22.04.1 and it worked as recently as last night.
> I changed my default email handler to Geary in POP OS and Mailto
> works fine in Chrome and Firefox. When changing default email to back
> to Evolution Mailto does not work from Chrome but does work from
> Firefox and any other browser I have tried. I have completely removed
> Chrome and everything relating to chrome and readded but clicking on
> a MailTo link in Chrome with Evolution as the default handler does
> nothing. Any troubleshooting tips are welcome.
> 

What does 

   xdg-mime query default 'x-scheme-handler/mailto'

say?  It should point to the desktop file that is used to start your
copy of Evolution.  Mine says "org.gnome.Evolution.desktop".  That is,
as far as I know, how Chrome handles Mailto: links. 

Does chrome give any error messages or do something else when you try a
mailto: link?

BTW, there's lots of things on the web about chrome being difficult
about mailto: links if it is in an iframe or or it's an image or
whatever. Try a different link, such as this w3schools one:

 https://www.w3schools.com/Html/tryit.asp?filename=tryhtml_mailto2

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Keeping email on the server

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> So the first thing the ISP did was to send me an email asking for the
> email that triggered the blocking. Well, I did not have it. I thought
> perhaps I could find it, but I was unsuccessful.
> 
> Furthermore, they wanted me to send that email in .eml format, and
> included instructions for putting it into .eml format. One option was:
> 
> > Email client:
> > 1. Highlight the message in your email client.
> > 2. Right-click on the message and select "Save As..."
> > 3. Choose Mail/Mail Files (*.eml).
> > 4. Click Save.
> 
> Of course, I not only couldn't find the message, but could not find a
> way in Evolution to save it as .eml.

.eml is a Microsoft speak for a single message in a file - it is RFC822
format, which is basically what an MBOX file is. So save the file as
MBOX and change the file extension to .eml - they won't know the
difference :-)

> 
> Not only that, but the copy in 'Sent' appears to not have a full set of
> headers.

It won't because the version in 'Sent' is saved there by your MUA
before being sent to the server.  The mail servers add lots of headers
as mail transits through them.  Some servers will automatically save
the message to a sent folder (Gmail will do that), but it will still
not have *all* the headers.

> 
> They have restored my ability to send email from Evolution, but not
> knowing what their criteria for identifying spam is, I fear that I may
> use a word like 'Hello' in the subject line once too often and be
> barred again.

As I said in another thread, ISPs are not keen on divulging their spam
limits and criteria in case you craft things to get around their
filters. If they don't fit your (legitimate) sending pattern, then I
suspect that it would be better to use a different mail provider.

> 
> I guess it really isn't urgent that I figure out what to do, other than
> never emptying my trash, then hoping that I can recover the email that
> causes the next blocking, and then hoping that it has a complete set of
> headers, and that I can save it in .eml format.
> 
You could try to CC:/BCC: yourself on the emails, then at least you
have more chance of getting a saved email with headers. (There's an
option to do that in Evolution under "Composing Messages" in the
account editor.)  But if they are blocking you at SMTP time, then the
mail won't get far enough to even send you the BCC:.  Your ISP can't
expect full headers if they won't let the mail get that far.  I suspect
the instructions they gave you are generic ones for when people say
"Why is this email in my spam folder" not when you are the source that
is being blocked.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Keeping email on the server

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-08-19 at 08:00 -0600, larry wrote:
> Ubuntu 20.04.4 LTS
> MATE 1.24.0
> Evolution 3.36.5-0ubuntu1
> 
> Is there any way to configure Evolution to leave outbound emails on the
> server? 
> 
That is entirely a function of the server - and I don't know any that
don't remove the data once the mail has been successfully sent. 

If you mean that you want to save a copy of the sent mail, then that is
configured under Edit -> Preferences ->  -> Edit -> Defaults

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Pete Biggs]

On Thu, 2022-08-18 at 04:10 +0200, Ángel wrote:
> On 2022-08-16 at 23:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Spam filtering is under the control of the receiver. It's trivial to
> > tell Gmail that a message is not spam, and it will learn that for
> > future reference. You might also look at *why* your mail is being
> > classified as spam. Could it be that some people have marked it as
> > such?
> 
> Actually, I would consider this a weak point of gmail. As a receiver,
> you don't know why a message is considered spam (compare that with a
> system like SpamAssassin, where you can view the scoring of the
> different modules), and even Google itself would often be unable to
> determine why the ML engine considered it bad.

This is getting way of topic, but ...

My work uses Microsoft O365.  We have similar issues with bad spam
filtering at times, including it binning internal mailing list mails.
The mail admins have tried to get some insight into the spam
classification process so that we can get some idea how to avoid it,
but MS won't talk about it because it's proprietary confidential
information. At first glance that's a "typical big brother" attitude,
but they say that if the spam classification algorithms are known,
spammers will just craft emails to get around them, which I can
understand.  I wonder if Gmail has the same sort of thinking on it.

BTW, we think the reason the mailing list mails were being spam binned
was because we have a very very large userbase (big university, lots of
staff and students), with some compulsory lists for communication. All
it takes is for people to blindly click on "I don't want to see this
sort of mail any more" thinking it gets them off the list, whereas it
just increases the spam score and eventually - actually quickly - gets
our mailing list servers globally sunk.

P.




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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Pete Biggs]

> 
>   Also, I appreciate the discussion but it has gone off on a tangent. How
> can I convince Evolution that I want it to use gmail with POP?

If you are setting it up from scratch in Evolution, then I suspect that
it is picking up some old configuration. So I suggest you delete the
gmail account, shutdown Evolution completely, including all it's
factory processes ('evolution --force-shutdown') then look in
~/.config/evolution/sources for any source file that contains the
account details.  Review the file and if they are old, delete them. I
think that is OK to do, but you might want to wait for comments from
someone who knows better.

Alternatively, create a new Linux user and set up an account on that
(so you have a clean config) and see if it still misbehaves.  If it
does, then I suspect it is a bug.

Have you tried other mail clients to do it?

> 
> 
>   Also, I _know_ they are probably monitoring my incoming mail anyway;
> but at least this way I can use another SMTP server so my outgoing traffic
> doesn't go through their servers. 

Be careful doing that - sending out mail through something other than a
gmail server will possibly create DMARC/SPF errors.

> 
> > I totally understand a desire for privacy and keeping data away from
> > the likes of Google, bit I think using POP for this reason brings
> > horses and stable doors to mind.
> 
>   I'm not sure I understand the allegory;
> 

"Locking the stable door after the horse has bolted"

>  but I'd rather not stay
> connected to a server to access my email. Having it stored locally and only
> connect to a server to send or receive fits my workflow better.
> 
Sure, but you can do that with IMAP as well. But if you want to use POP
then do so.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 17:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't want
> > to keep anything in google's hands.
> 
> Up to you of course, but that logic doesn't make sense to me. If you
> don't trust Google, why are you using their mail servers, which have
> full access to everything going through them?
> 
It may well be that it is a work account that uses gmail.  But I think
it's naive to think that using POP to remove the mail from Google means
that Google will forget about the content or that they hadn't already
got tons of info from it before you even saw it in your Inbox.

I totally understand a desire for privacy and keeping data away from
the likes of Google, bit I think using POP for this reason brings
horses and stable doors to mind.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Pete Biggs]

Please give your Evolution version as things do change over time.

> 
>   Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't want to
> keep anything in google's hands. However, when I try to add this email address
> as a POP account, Evolution automatically turns it into a "gmail-type" account
> and reverts to IMAP syncing. 
> 
>   Why does Evolution do that? Is there any way I can use this email in
> Evolution without it forcing me to use IMAP?
> 
At the bottom of the "Identity" page when creating an account there's a
tick box "Look up mail server " if that is enabled, Evolution will
fill in the mail config with what the provider thinks it should be,
which is almost certainly not POP3.

Untick the box and add all the server details manually:

  https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7104828?hl=en

Presumably you have everything setup at the gmail side for POP3 access.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Erreur durant Envoi du message. La commande DATA a échoué : SPF validation failed. : Reason: default

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> I am new to Linux and my current distribution is ubuntu 22.04 LTS,
> 
> As a mail client I have opted for evolution instead of the one that is 
> native to Ubuntu 22.04 (Thunderbird).
> 
> It's been several days that all the messages I send do not leave I have 
> this message: "Error during message sending.  The DATA command failed: 
> SPF validation failed.  Reason: default".
> 
> Please help me to solve this problem.
> 
That's not an Evolution issue.

You need to read up on what SPF is, but it's basically a mechanism for
restricting who can send mail on behalf of a domain. It's implemented
as a list of IP addresses, in a DNS record, that are valid as sources
of mail for that domain. Clearly your IP address is not in that list
for the domain you are claiming your email is from.

How to fix it?  Make sure your outgoing mail is configured correctly.
Your mail provider (ISP, company IT etc.) will be able to give you the
correct server information you should use.  If it is correct, then they
have misconfigured their SPF entry.  Unless you are the DNS/mail admin,
then there's nothing you can do and you need to talk to them about it.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] B font used by evolution 3.44.3-1.fc36 problem

[Pete Biggs]

Sorry, I didn't intend that this develop into a separate discussion.

My only reason for pointing out the issue was because I have been
berated in the past for hinting that some course of action would solve
a problem, but someone took it too far and claimed my suggestion had
resulted in loosing mails. (It was because they did something stupid,
but, hey, I didn't tell them not to.)

So all I wanted to do was make sure that if someone was reading this
thread in the future that they don't look at it and say "oh, they say
it's OK to downgrade and that will solve my problems". 

Disclaimers, disclaimers, disclaimers ...


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Re: [Evolution] B font used by evolution 3.44.3-1.fc36 problem

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> I guess I will now log this a bug in github then.
> I will wait a day or two in case someone can tell me that in fact I
> have something wrong and it does work correctly on 3.44.3.
> All I have done is downgrade evolution and restart it and it works.

A word of warning: downgrading Evolution doesn't always work - data
formats change, database schema are updated etc. etc.  It is probably
OK within a major version, but Evolution is not always forward
compatible and upgrading Evolution may update things such that previous
versions will no longer work with your configuration.

Recommending that people downgrade Evolution can cause them issues.

P.




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Re: [Evolution] Deleted font used by evolution

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Fedora changed the default Adwaita icon sets for FC36 to the B
> version you see. I suppose it came as a surprise to me as well, but
> that's what happens when you don't read the release notes first!!
> 
> There are lots of themes and icon sets at 
> 
>   https://www.gnome-look.org/
> 

But having played with it a bit, because it was more interesting than
what I was doing. I think there's more to it.  In gnome-tweaks the
Evolution look-and-feel is changed using the "Legacy Applications"
selector. I presume that's because Gnome 42 uses GTK4 and Evolution
still uses GTK3.  Unfortunately it looks like the icon sets for GTK3
are more limited.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Deleted font used by evolution

[Pete Biggs]

On Thu, 2022-07-28 at 17:26 +0800, Luigi Cantoni via evolution-list
wrote:
> Thanks I am sure you are correct.
> 
> I have quickly tried changing the login desktop configuration and
> tried all 4 (available on Fedora).
> They certainly change the icons but not of the ones I see within
> evolution.
> 
> I quickly checked and was pointed to Tweaks (which I have installed).
> I compared my setting (which are OK) with those that are not and they
> are the same.
> I tried changing a few but it did not help.

Fedora changed the default Adwaita icon sets for FC36 to the B
version you see. I suppose it came as a surprise to me as well, but
that's what happens when you don't read the release notes first!!

There are lots of themes and icon sets at 

  https://www.gnome-look.org/

and there's lots available from the repositories. Do

  dnf search icon-theme

But as Andre said, this is not an Evolution issue.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] EWS: Offline Global Address List problem

[Pete Biggs]

On Wed, 2022-07-27 at 01:18 +, Matt Rockwell wrote:
> May be too late as this is an old post.
> 
> It's July 26 2022 using Evolution 3.44.1-0ubuntu1, and the problem
> described is chronic.
> 
> Solved by removing Outh2 and using Standard EWS with an app-specific
> password.  Problem disappeared.
> 
Is this Office365?  If so, then be aware that Microsoft are removing
basic auth, and hence app passwords, later this year. 

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/exchange/clients-and-mobile-in-exchange-online/deprecation-of-basic-authentication-exchange-online

I don't know how this affects on-prem Exchange.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] How do I make my own hotkeys?

[Pete Biggs]

> > > 
> > It depends on how you have set up deleting to behave. If you have set
> > a
> > real folder to use as a trash, then the messages are moved to the
> > trash
> > rather than just being marked as deleted.  In that case go into the
> > trash folder for the account and undelete them from there.
> 
> Thanks Pete. I indeed found the deleted messages in my Trash folder,
> but there was no way I could see to undelete them via a left click on
> the message or the message dropdown menu.
> 
> How do I undelete them from the trash?
> 
Dunno. I thought it kept a record of where they came from to allow
undelete, but I don't use a real trash so can't tell. I presume you'll
have to drag them from trash back to where they came from.

If it is something that happens often, then I would probably advise
that you don't use a real trash folder and stick to marking the message
as deleted and a virtual trash. (You can undelete from a virtual trash,
I know that works.)

P.

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Re: [Evolution] How do I make my own hotkeys?

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> 
> Thanks Andre! Using your instructions I was able to use "n" as the
> hotkey for next email instead of Ctrl+PgDn, and "p" for previous email
> instead of Ctrl+PgUp. However, the list didn't scroll with multiple
> presses of "n", and so soon disappeared from the list. Multiple presses
> of "p" scrolled off the top of the list. This behavior is true of the
> default Ctrl+PgUP and Ctrl+PgDn too. Is there any way I can make the
> list scroll when I repeatedly go to the next or previous email?

It does on mine, but it's a bit laggy - i.e. if you are doing it
quickly, then it doesn't always re-draw the list on every key press.

> 
> > 
> > > Also, if I accidentally delete one or more messages and haven't
> > > purged
> > > yet, how do I undelete them?
> > 
> > Enable "View  Show Deleted Messages" in that physical folder, and
> > select "Undelete Message" from the context menu.
> 
> Thanks Andre. View=>Show Undeleted Messages in that folder failed to
> show the undeleted messages.
> 
It depends on how you have set up deleting to behave. If you have set a
real folder to use as a trash, then the messages are moved to the trash
rather than just being marked as deleted.  In that case go into the
trash folder for the account and undelete them from there.  To change
the behaviour it's under Edit -> Preferences -> Mail Accounts ->
[select account] -> Edit -> Defaults

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Disable the message pop-up alarm

[Pete Biggs]

On Wed, 2022-07-06 at 17:42 -0600, Jim Arner wrote:
> How does one disable the 'new e-mail' pop-up alarm (sound and display)?  Those
> are somewhat annoying.
> 
> I'm using Evolution 3.36.5-0ubuntu1 on Linux Mint 20.3
> 

It's done via a plugin which can be turned off via the plugin config -
which in your older version I think is at Edit->Plugins, otherwise it
will be in Edit->Preferences. 

Fine control over how it looks is done via the Gnome settings app.

> I have edited /etc/xdg/autostart/org.gnome.Evolution-alarm-
> notify.desktop as
> below: 'NotShowIn'

That's only for alarm notifications, not new mail notifications.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Connectivity warning

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> 
> The "Failed to connect" bar at the top of the message list is a right old 
> pain for me.  I understand that making it
> prominent is desirable for people who need a right old kick in the visuals 
> but it makes the main part of Evo jump up and
> down in response to the many button clicks I need to clear the warnings.

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-June/msg00085.html


P.

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Re: [Evolution] unable to save read port

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-07-04 at 11:10 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia  4.07.2022 o godz. 10:04:49 Pete Biggs pisze:
> > By far the most prevalent form of email "hacking" is phishing. Both App
> > Passwords and OAuth2 (and also MFA) dissociate your password from being
> > the only thing necessary to gain access to your email.  In that way,
> > they are a significant increase in overall mail security.
> 
> But if you don't have MFA configured (and I assume the OP did not have,
> since if you had MFA you won't be able to login to IMAP via password only
> anyway) and someone knows your password, he can login to your email anyway
> using the web interface.

But that's the point.  He couldn't login using his password, Yahoo
requires an App Password or OAuth2 if you are using IMAP. Both methods
need you to login via the web, which allows them to control the
security rather than relying on a less secure IMAP connection.

> 
> So what advantage in terms of security does disabling a password login via
> IMAP give if someone can still login using the same password via the web
> interface?

Because there are things happening when you login via the web that are
not obvious - things like browser identity, cookies, two stage login
etc. etc. They all have to be correct for you to login with just a
password. If they aren't, then it will ask for the extra factor. These
are things that can't be done for an IMAP connection.

But this is now way, way, of topic for this list.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] unable to save read port

[Pete Biggs]

On Mon, 2022-07-04 at 10:45 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia  4.07.2022 o godz. 00:06:14 Richard pisze:
> > 
> > I believe that when using 3rd-party email clients Yahoo now requires
> > that you either set up and use a yahoo "app password", or OAuth 2. I
> > don't think that using the yahoo site-password will work any longer
> > with a 3rd-party mail client.
> 
> So they basically did the same thing as Google?
> I wonder if this really "improves security" as they claim.
> If you log in via password, you don't have to store the password in your
> email client; you will then have to type it everytime you launch your mail
> client (it is what I'm always doing).
> Both with OAuth2 and with app password, some form of credential must be
> stored in your mail client: OAuth2 token because it just works this way, and
> app password because it's random and impossible to remember.
> So this is actually *less* secure if someone gains access to your computer
> (or a mobile device, which can be a pretty real scenario if it gets stolen)
> - they can then access your email without any password whatsoever...

By far the most prevalent form of email "hacking" is phishing. Both App
Passwords and OAuth2 (and also MFA) dissociate your password from being
the only thing necessary to gain access to your email.  In that way,
they are a significant increase in overall mail security.

If you are concerned that an unauthorised person may get access to your
computer and access emails that way then you absolutely MUST encrypt
things. Filesystem encryption is a must for all portable devices; if
your desktop is vulnerable or contains sensitive information then that
too should be encrypted.  On top of this your keystore, where Evolution
stores passwords and tokens, is by default securely encrypted, but is
unlocked when you login - you can change that so that you only unlock
it when an application needs to use the contents.

So yes, it really does improve security.

P.



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Re: [Evolution] unable to save read port

[Pete Biggs]

On Sun, 2022-07-03 at 23:43 +, Kevin T wrote:
> Thanks Pete,

On this list we prefer you not to top post and not to use HTML.  And
it's much better if you reply only to the list and not do "reply all".

It would also be very useful if you could tell us what version of
Evolution this is.


> 
> this is what yahoo says it should be set to.
> 
> Incoming Mail (IMAP) Server
>  * Server - imap.mail.yahoo.com
>  * Port - 993
>  * Requires SSL - Yes
> Outgoing Mail (SMTP) Server
>  * Server - smtp.mail.yahoo.com
>  * Port - 465 or 587
>  * Requires SSL - Yes
>  * Requires authentication - Yes
> Your login info
>  * Email address - Your full email address (n...@domain.com)
>  * Password - Generate App Password
>  * Requires authentication - Yes

I'm surprised Yahoo tells you to use an App Password - I thought they
used OAuth2 almost exclusively. Are you generating a new App Password
for Evolution?

> 
> As far as stable OS's go, the work uses rhel (centos), that is what I
> chose.  I will happily listen to others views on stable OS. 

As I said, not really the place here, but I have now had three machines
get themselves in an unusable state with Stream 8 (out of 20 or so).
And if you need to use RHEL, then CentOS Stream is not really
comparable as it never really matches the RHEL point releases. If you
need to use a RHEL clone, then use Rocky or Alma or Oracle. Personally,
I've been using Rocky and it seems to be stable.


P.

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