Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Mar 11, 2005, at 3:46 AM, Michael Cook wrote: At 12:20 -0800 10/03/2005, Mark D Lew wrote: It has been my observation that Wozzeck is most highly praised by people who are very into orchestral music but have little interest in opera. That is, the sort of people who like Wozzeck usually don't much care for Verdi and Puccini, and vice versa. Not my experience. I get as many kicks from Wozzeck as I do from Traviata or Tosca, and in the opera theatre where I work (where we do just about all the big Wagner, Verdi and Puccini stuff) I find many people who feel the same. Wozzeck works on many levels: of course it's great orchestral music, but it's also great theatre and wonderfully written for the singers. And there are passages in Wozzeck that are just as romantic and sexy as anything by Puccini. Michael Cook A complete aside: The chamber orchestration by John Rea of Wozzeck, which I mentioned previously as having a killer trombone part, was played in British Colombia a while ago, and the trombone part prompted the B.C. player to write an article about how to practice for the gig. This would only be of interest to trombonists, but I know there are some here on the list. http://www.musicforbrass.com/articles.php?artnum=182 Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Very interesting. I forwarded it to Trombone-L Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Christopher Smith wrote: ... A complete aside: The chamber orchestration by John Rea of Wozzeck, which I mentioned previously as having a killer trombone part, was played in British Colombia a while ago, and the trombone part prompted the B.C. player to write an article about how to practice for the gig. This would only be of interest to trombonists, but I know there are some here on the list. http://www.musicforbrass.com/articles.php?artnum=182 Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
I have often heard comments akin to I like opera, except for the voices, and not only from Jazz lovers. But I also have the impression that many Jazz instrumentalists have an ambiguous relationship to /Jazz/ vocal music: not so much actively disliking it, but rather giving the obligatory nod of appreciation to some great singers from the past and then just not cultivating any relationship with contemporary jazz vocal musicians. This is only an impression from a musicians who has virtually nothing to do with Jazz, so I'd love to be corrected, but I suspect that I am tracing a general pattern here that has something more to do with American music culture in general than with a division between opera and Jazz partisans. As an American, I grew up with the mistaken impression that Opera (and art song, for that matter) was at the periphery of classical music-making and musical culture. I've now been in Europe long enough to understand that, in the European countries with strong operatic traditions, this is definitely not the case. Here in Budapest, for example, the opera house is the center of musical life and the recital or orchestral concert is a satellite activity. The Budapest opera is a very traditional house, playing standard repertoire (from Mozart through Count Bluebeard's Castle and Turandot) in mostly traditional productions with repertoire singers drawn overwhelmingly from the Hungary. These singers become important local figures praised, critiqued, gossiped about, and treasured by a public that crosses class lines. Instrumental music doesn't carry much of this social cache, it is rather more of an elite activity. In the US, pop music is essentially a vocal genre. Instrumental pop successes are novelty or niche items (what instrumentals have made the top ten in the past fifty years? Herb Alpert, disco-fied Beethoven, and---?) . But American popular song has roots in both European and African-American Art musics, often via the theatre. But why the present divorce between serious instrumental music (whether Jazz or classical) and popular song? I have lots of small ideas (for example, the musicians' union strike from recording during WWII) but no grand ideas to explain this. Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Mar 11, 2005, at 11:40 AM, Daniel Wolf wrote: In the US, pop music is essentially a vocal genre. Instrumental pop successes are novelty or niche items (what instrumentals have made the top ten in the past fifty years? Herb Alpert, disco-fied Beethoven, and---?) . But American popular song has roots in both European and African-American Art musics, often via the theatre. But why the present divorce between serious instrumental music (whether Jazz or classical) and popular song? I have lots of small ideas (for example, the musicians' union strike from recording during WWII) but no grand ideas to explain this. When did this divorce take place? Was it not at roughly the same time the microphone was introduced? If so, it's probably not a coincidence. Most serious singers are accustomed to singing in a way that they could be heard in a reasonably large hall (very large, in some cases) even without a microphone. The microphone opened up the possibility of a different style of singing which would barely be audible at all without it. The two types of singing have different requirements in terms of how they are performed, what orchestration can go with them, etc., and different styles of music have evolved around them. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Daniel Wolf wrote: I have often heard comments akin to I like opera, except for the voices, and not only from Jazz lovers. But I also have the impression that many Jazz instrumentalists have an ambiguous relationship to /Jazz/ vocal music: not so much actively disliking it, but rather giving the obligatory nod of appreciation to some great singers from the past and then just not cultivating any relationship with contemporary jazz vocal musicians. This is only an impression from a musicians who has virtually nothing to do with Jazz, so I'd love to be corrected, but I suspect that I am tracing a general pattern here that has something more to do with American music culture in general than with a division between opera and Jazz partisans. For me, it's too many years of having poor (or worse) wannabe singers think they're as good as the people in the band who have put in decades of work perfercting their art after the singer has spent a couple of hours thinking about maybe learning a song or two. There are SO many bad singers that it tends to put many of us off anybody who sings. That said, I've worked with some fine singers, not only in jazz, but in rock, musicals, and other genres (have any of you ever heard Lydia Pense? GREAT voice, and very musical). It's just that Sturgeon's Law [1] definitely applies here. cd [1] 90% of everything (applied to creative ventures) is crud. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Someone wrote: That's an easy one -- Rhapsody in Blue isn't jazz. I recently heard a discussion on this very subject - whether R in B was jazz or not. Several wildly different recordings were called upon as witnesses. The conclusion was that when it was played by Jack Splatt's Jazz Band it was jazz and when it was played by Joe Soap's Symphony Orchestra it wasn't. All the best, Lawrence þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On 09 Mar 2005, at 5:30 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: But I pretty much hate opera, so I'd best disqualify myself from *that* discussion. Well, if you must know, I pretty much hate jazz. You know, it strikes me that both Mark's attitude and mine are pretty characteristic. The number of jazz musicians I know who are into opera is vanishingly small, and I've found very few classical singers who enjoy instrumental jazz. The exceptions on the latter score tend to be light-voiced singers who do almost exclusively new music and hate traditional opera even more than I do. This rule even seemed to hold for the other employees of the classical record store where I worked, who were mostly classical instrumentalists -- the ones who liked opera tended to be uninterested in instrumental jazz, and vice versa. I wonder why that is? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Darcy James Argue wrote: On 09 Mar 2005, at 5:30 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: But I pretty much hate opera, so I'd best disqualify myself from *that* discussion. Well, if you must know, I pretty much hate jazz. You know, it strikes me that both Mark's attitude and mine are pretty characteristic. The number of jazz musicians I know who are into opera is vanishingly small, and I've found very few classical singers who enjoy instrumental jazz. The exceptions on the latter score tend to be light-voiced singers who do almost exclusively new music and hate traditional opera even more than I do. This rule even seemed to hold for the other employees of the classical record store where I worked, who were mostly classical instrumentalists -- the ones who liked opera tended to be uninterested in instrumental jazz, and vice versa. I wonder why that is? They feel threatened by what they don't understand? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
dhbailey writes: This rule even seemed to hold for the other employees of the classical record store where I worked, who were mostly classical instrumentalists -- the ones who liked opera tended to be uninterested in instrumental jazz, and vice versa. I wonder why that is? They feel threatened by what they don't understand? Nahhh. It's just the anchovies factor. I detest anchovies, but that doesn't mean they aren't good, or that I don't understand them. I've told the story before about one of my sonss who, turning his nose up at my steamed carrots with dill (lovely), said These are yuckky. No, I told him, they are perfectly acceptable carrots. You are allowed to say you don't like them, but it's wrong to say they are yuckky. I've heard a LOT of jazz, and occasionally it speaks to me. But in general, it's mostly anchovies to me. I just don't really like it. But I ain't sayin' it's yuckky. Linda Worsley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Darcy Argue: But I pretty much hate opera, so I'd best disqualify myself from *that* discussion. Mark Lew: Well, if you must know, I pretty much hate jazz. Gentlemen, gentlemen! Please! You are both right. -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Mar 10, 2005, at 3:55 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone wrote: That's an easy one -- Rhapsody in Blue isn't jazz. I recently heard a discussion on this very subject - whether R in B was jazz or not. Several wildly different recordings were called upon as witnesses. The conclusion was that when it was played by Jack Splatt's Jazz Band it was jazz and when it was played by Joe Soap's Symphony Orchestra it wasn't. All the best, Lawrence Very close, but more to the point jazz isn't what you play or who plays it, it's HOW you play it. Every note that came out of Miles Davis' trumpet wasn't necessarily jazz (despite what everyone tries to tell us), but a whole bunch of them were, depending on how he approached it. I think Marcus Robert's version of Rhapsody was jazz, or mostly so. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Mar 10, 2005, at 7:04 AM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: On 09 Mar 2005, at 5:30 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: But I pretty much hate opera, so I'd best disqualify myself from *that* discussion. Well, if you must know, I pretty much hate jazz. You know, it strikes me that both Mark's attitude and mine are pretty characteristic. The number of jazz musicians I know who are into opera is vanishingly small, and I've found very few classical singers who enjoy instrumental jazz. The exceptions on the latter score tend to be light-voiced singers who do almost exclusively new music and hate traditional opera even more than I do. This rule even seemed to hold for the other employees of the classical record store where I worked, who were mostly classical instrumentalists -- the ones who liked opera tended to be uninterested in instrumental jazz, and vice versa. I wonder why that is? They feel threatened by what they don't understand? Huh? You'll have to explain further. It seems to me that not understanding some work would leave you cold, not hating it, and not threaten you at all. I feel much more threatened (as a jazz musician and jazz lover) by so-called smooth jazz which I understand all too well, and have to dance with, around, and to, way too often to suit me. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Just to clarify, I don't hate opera the way I hate, say, Celine Dion or Kenny G or Andrew Lloyd Webber or American Idol. I hope that was clear. It would be more accurate to say that opera leaves me cold -- with a handful of exceptions, I just don't find most operas satisfying either as music or (especially) as drama. But that's just me. I'm not making any sweeping value judgments, just expressing a personal preference. Anyway, back to the 1920's -- any seconders for Wozzeck? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 10 Mar 2005, at 9:18 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Mar 10, 2005, at 7:04 AM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: On 09 Mar 2005, at 5:30 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: But I pretty much hate opera, so I'd best disqualify myself from *that* discussion. Well, if you must know, I pretty much hate jazz. You know, it strikes me that both Mark's attitude and mine are pretty characteristic. The number of jazz musicians I know who are into opera is vanishingly small, and I've found very few classical singers who enjoy instrumental jazz. The exceptions on the latter score tend to be light-voiced singers who do almost exclusively new music and hate traditional opera even more than I do. This rule even seemed to hold for the other employees of the classical record store where I worked, who were mostly classical instrumentalists -- the ones who liked opera tended to be uninterested in instrumental jazz, and vice versa. I wonder why that is? They feel threatened by what they don't understand? Huh? You'll have to explain further. It seems to me that not understanding some work would leave you cold, not hating it, and not threaten you at all. I feel much more threatened (as a jazz musician and jazz lover) by so-called smooth jazz which I understand all too well, and have to dance with, around, and to, way too often to suit me. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Mar 10, 2005, at 10:00 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Just to clarify, I don't hate opera the way I hate, say, Celine Dion or Kenny G or Andrew Lloyd Webber or American Idol. I hope that was clear. It would be more accurate to say that opera leaves me cold -- with a handful of exceptions, I just don't find most operas satisfying either as music or (especially) as drama. But that's just me. I'm not making any sweeping value judgments, just expressing a personal preference. Anyway, back to the 1920's -- any seconders for Wozzeck? - Darcy Yes, I would second Wozzeck. I saw a chamber orchestration (by John Rea) of it this summer at Orford (staged by Lorraine Pintal), which is rather a small hall, and it was just striking! I was familiar with the large version from recordings, but until you've seen it staged, holy toledo! And I don't even particularly like opera (notice I don't say I hate it!) but this was fantastic. One trombone, and the part was next to unplayable. Fortunately, one of the three trombonists in town who could actually handle it was on the job, and he nailed it, swearing the whole time. (Sorry, off the topic. But yes, the work is a contender for best music of the 20's.) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
At 10:00 -0500 10/03/2005, Darcy James Argue wrote: Anyway, back to the 1920's -- any seconders for Wozzeck? I'll second that. We're working on this piece at the moment in Mannheim (premiere on April 2nd) and I'm constantly fascinated and overwhelmed by the power of the music. I'd put this piece in for best works of the 20th century. Michael Cook ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Darcy James Argue / 05.3.10 / 10:00 AM wrote: Anyway, back to the 1920's -- any seconders for Wozzeck? I didn't rase my hand since I usually don't do 'me to', but since you asked :-) Wozzeck was the first fascinating theatrical music in my life. It was more fascinating when I bought the score and two different recordings. By the way, why this poll is limited to 1920'? I wasn't there, y'know, and Miles was only a baby. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:01:42 -0500, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 12:46 PM 3/9/05 -0500, Darcy James Argue wrote: FWIW, my recording -- the Pollini on DG -- calls op. 25 a Suite for Piano. As it does in German on my score, UE 7627, Suite für Klavier. (Erratic engraving job, by the way, some nice, some ugly.) Yes... my bad. My score (the Belmont edition) says Suite für Klavier as well; I just didn't have it in front of me at the time, and I usually think of it merely as Opus 25 anyway. FWIW, it's the only solo piano work by Schoenberg *not* to be labeled as Klavierstücke... -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Life would be so much easier if only (3/2)^12=(2/1)^7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Mar 9, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: Christopher Smith wrote: subsequent ubiquity How many places will you see that used? Six brownie points! 34 places, according to a Google search. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Mark D Lew / 05.3.10 / 03:20 PM wrote: My apologies to all jazz musicians that I've now offended. Ha-ha, You did that alright. Jazz is all about groove, and anything else is secondary. The big difference between jazz and other type of music is that jazz requires everyone to play in different time, i.e., bass and ride on-top, hi-hat behind, Bird in the middle running between on-top and behind, that makes you groove :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
[ ... ] As for operas, I don't care for Wozzeck. It has been my observation that Wozzeck is most highly praised by people who are very into orchestral music but have little interest in opera. That is, the sort of people who like Wozzeck usually don't much care for Verdi and Puccini, and vice versa. Here's a personal vote for all three: Wozzeck, Verdi, and Puccini are all high on my own list, and I'll throw in Lulu, Mozart, and Wagner on the opera side as well. That being said, I do tend to lean more toward pure orchestral music, but in my book a great opera composer is first of all a great composer. -Lee ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Darcy James Argue wrote: Just to clarify, I don't hate opera the way I hate, say, Celine Dion or Kenny G or Andrew Lloyd Webber or American Idol. I hope that was clear. It would be more accurate to say that opera leaves me cold -- with a handful of exceptions, I just don't find most operas satisfying either as music or (especially) as drama. But that's just me. I'm not making any sweeping value judgments, just expressing a personal preference. That works for me. I detest the ... performers named above, and have actually enjoyed a few operas (though very few - mostl of it is just not my cup of tea), but I make, if not a living, a decent addendum as a jazz musician. I've also played pit in operas and ballets, and like the music - if they'd just get rid of the singers I could enjoy opera. :) cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
I would say A Colour Symphony by (Sir) Artur Bliss. Was composed in 1922 and revised on 1932. Incredible composition and orchestration! Roger ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On 08 Mar 2005, at 11:04 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue (preferably original version, not the orchestral version) (1924) Just FYI -- in case you've never heard the original version, with the Paul Whiteman band and Gershwin at the Piano, you can listen to it here: http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Whiteman/rhapblua.ram There is also a version recorded in 1927 using electrical recording equipment, with much improved sound quality (much improved being a relative term, of course -- we're still talking about 1927, after all): http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Whiteman/rhapsody.ram Okay, as you were. Keep 'em coming! - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY Here are a few: Bartok: The Miraculous Mandarin (1926); 4th Quartet (1928) Stravinsky: Symphonies of Wind Instruments (1920); Octet for Winds (1923); (stretch it to 1930 and we'll through in the Symphony of Psalms!) , An American in Paris (1928) Louis Armstrong: Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings of 1925-28 submitted by Raymond Horton Darcy James Argue wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Per Ottar Gjerstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Olivier Messiaen: Turangalila Symphony GREAT work (just listened to it again recently), but not 1920s! It was from 1948. Maybe one of the best works of the 1940s? Messiaen's first published work, 8 Piano preludes, is 1929 -- but I wouldn't put that into this august list. David Froom ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
At 07:41 AM 3/9/05 -0500, Darcy James Argue wrote: Just FYI -- in case you've never heard the original version, with the Paul Whiteman band and Gershwin at the Piano, you can listen to it here: http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Whiteman/rhapblua.ram There is also a version recorded in 1927 using electrical recording equipment, with much improved sound quality (much improved being a relative term, of course -- we're still talking about 1927, after all): http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Whiteman/rhapsody.ram I have an LP re-release of one or the other of these -- I think the first. I was thrilled by how much life and edge it had compared to the sappy readings we usually get, especially the big, foofy orchestral ones. Okay, as you were. Keep 'em coming! Seconded. So far I haven't hit the keyboard in time to slide one in! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
At 07:41 AM 3/9/05 -0500, Darcy James Argue wrote: Just FYI -- in case you've never heard the original version, with the Paul Whiteman band and Gershwin at the Piano, you can listen to it here: http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Whiteman/rhapblua.ram There is also a version recorded in 1927 using electrical recording equipment, with much improved sound quality (much improved being a relative term, of course -- we're still talking about 1927, after all): http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Whiteman/rhapsody.ram It looks like (after a couple of mentions) that many consider Rhapsody to be a great work. Although I accept that it was groundbreaking, influential, got a lot of press, yada-yada, I question whether it was really great. It was rushed off after Gershwin had forgotten that he was supposed to write it, and it doesn't really have the cohesion that one would expect from a major work, even from a popular composer. It's just kind of a bunch of nice tunes strung together rather primitively, with a couple of motives sequenced without really any development per se, with a competent orchestration for jazz band with strings. Nothing really great about it, IMHO. For great I would definitely rank his Piano Concerto above Rhapsody, and I would absolutely put Porgy and Bess into the ranks of great, as it not only accomplished everything he was trying to do with Rhapsody, but the structure, development, and cohesion are right up there with other operas. Unfortunately, he wrote it in the 30's, so it doesn't fit your category. For Gershwin works from the 20's I would possibly include I Got Rhythm for its subsequent ubiquity (rather than its greatness), and Fascinating Rhythm because he got it so right, even more right than Charleston got it right. It was good to see a mention of Louis Armstrong's Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings. They, above all others in the jazz domain, deserve a mention. Never before or since have so few sides influenced so many, even including Kind of Blue. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On 09 Mar 2005, at 9:15 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: It looks like (after a couple of mentions) that many consider Rhapsody to be a great work. Although I accept that it was groundbreaking, influential, got a lot of press, yada-yada, I question whether it was really great. It was rushed off after Gershwin had forgotten that he was supposed to write it, and it doesn't really have the cohesion that one would expect from a major work, even from a popular composer. It's just kind of a bunch of nice tunes strung together rather primitively, with a couple of motives sequenced without really any development per se, with a competent orchestration for jazz band with strings. Nothing really great about it, IMHO. I was waiting for that. [grin] This is the standard line of attack against Rhapsody in Blue -- not to slight Chris's argument, it's just similar to arguments I've heard from many people over the years. I don't really have time to get into an extended defense now, but some quick points: 1) Part of what makes Rhapsody in Blue great is that it's so incredibly evocative of time and place. It instantly and vividly evokes 1920's New York -- even for people who have never heard it before, don't know its history, don't know the first thing about 1920's New York, and have never seen Woody Allen's _Manhattan_. 2) What's so great about development? Gimme a bunch of nice tunes any day (echoes of the recent argument over The Magic Flute) -- especially if they're as nice as the ones G.G. included in Rhapsody in Blue. 2') Even so, I think Rhapsody in Blue hangs together much better than a lot of other works that have better formal cohesion -- there's clearly a single musical narrative, and a strong unifying character to all the various themes. They're also more structurally alike than you give them credit for, but even if they weren't, who cares? I think the whole is clearly more than the sum of its parts here, as the work's longevity and continued popularity attest. To me, complaining about the lack of Rigorous Formal Development and Structural Integrity in Rhapsody in Blue is kinda like complaining about the lack of good tunes in Webern. For great I would definitely rank his Piano Concerto above Rhapsody, Really? Hmm. Not a big fan of the Piano Concerto. Porgy and Bess has great songs, but I'd rather hear Sarah Vaughan sing them. But I pretty much hate opera, so I'd best disqualify myself from *that* discussion. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Milhaud: La creation du monde ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Mar 8, 2005, at 6:53 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? My top 10, in no particular order: Varèse: Octandre Varèse: Arcana Stravinsky: Octet for Winds Schoenberg: Variations for Orchestra Berg: Wozzeck Copland: Piano Concerto Hindemith: Cardillac Ruggles: Men and Mountains Milhaud: La Création du monde Honegger: Pacific 231 I have a nagging feeling, though, that I've overlooked someone important. I'm sure other listers will catch whoever it is. I'm also very aware that any such list is acutely sensitive to the exact definition of best and piece, so that others may quite legitimately come up with lists that contain none of my entries. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s - now Rhapsody in Blue
On 08 Mar 2005, at 11:04 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue (preferably original version, not the orchestral version) Darcy James Argue wrote: Funny you should mention that... I've actually been looking for a modern recording of the original orchestration -- you wouldn't happen to know of one, would you? (I've heard the original Whiteman band version with Gershwin at the piano, but it would be nice to have a version with better sound quality.) Raymond replies: (Hope you don't mind I made this to the whole list.) If it's still in print, there was a great one made with Michael T. Thomas conducting an original instrumentation band with the Gershwin piano roll soloing. It was done in the early-mid 80's. The piano roll, which was the solo piano version, had the orchestral notes plugged-up so only the piano solo part remained. The amazing thing about that recording is the flaming tempi - the piece FLIES at Gershwin's tempi. I talked at length to Andrew Kazdin, who produced that recording (and also dozens of our Louisville Orchestra First Edition Recordings) about that recording. He said he prepared two versions of the the piano recordings for Thomas, including one with slower tempi, but Thomas preferred the fast tempi. I had seen a bad review of the recording (saying that G. G. may have liked the fast tempos for solo but it was impractical for the big group, and, anyway, you can't tell the right speed on those things, which wasn't true, according to Kazdin, etc) but I absolutely loved it when I heard it. At the time I had never heard the Gershwin solo roll, which I recently purchased on a low-priced CD. It is also very entertaining, partly because of the fast tempi. (I have sat on stage SO many late nights while some blowhard pianist tries to wrench new meaning out of those solo phrases by playing themO S O S L O W L Y but withS U CH N U A N C E) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
FWIW, my recording -- the Pollini on DG -- calls op. 25 a Suite for Piano. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 08 Mar 2005, at 7:23 PM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:19:09 -0800, Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:53:21 -0500, Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. My favorite piece from that decade is, without a doubt, Schoenberg's Opus 25 Kavierstuecke. Especially the Gavotte. err, of course I meant to type Klavierstuecke. Or Klavierstücke, if you want, or even Piano Pieces if you're so inclined. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Life would be so much easier if only (3/2)^12=(2/1)^7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
At 12:46 PM 3/9/05 -0500, Darcy James Argue wrote: FWIW, my recording -- the Pollini on DG -- calls op. 25 a Suite for Piano. As it does in German on my score, UE 7627, Suite für Klavier. (Erratic engraving job, by the way, some nice, some ugly.) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Darcy James Argue writes: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. I see that Guy Hayden has got ahead of me with Show Boat. I agree that the Stravinsky Octet is a candidate, though I had given first place to Les Noces. Why didn't I think of Sibelius Symphony 7? My immediate reaction was, Of course! Even more striking than the Bliss, among English works, IMO, is Peter Warlock's setting of W B Yeats, The Curlew. According to Grove Concise, Turangalila was written in 1948. It would have been outstanding in any other decade, of course. However, the first work I thought of (I hope to generate a few Of course!s among the rest of you) was Berg's Wozzeck, even though I am more into orchestral and chamber instrumental works than those for the stage. A slightly more tentative proposal: the Ravel Sonata for Violin and Piano. -- Ken Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: http://www.mooremusic.org.uk/ I reject emails 100k automatically: warn me beforehand if you want to send one ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Mar 9, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Porgy and Bess has great songs, but I'd rather hear Sarah Vaughan sing them. Even if you subtract all the voice parts, Porgy Bess is still great, just for the orchestra. That said, the parts of PB I like best are the lightly accompanied choruses. But I pretty much hate opera, so I'd best disqualify myself from *that* discussion. Well, if you must know, I pretty much hate jazz. And yet I love Rhapsody in Blue. Go figure. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Mark D Lew wrote: On Mar 9, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Porgy and Bess has great songs, but I'd rather hear Sarah Vaughan sing them. Even if you subtract all the voice parts, Porgy Bess is still great, just for the orchestra. That said, the parts of PB I like best are the lightly accompanied choruses. But I pretty much hate opera, so I'd best disqualify myself from *that* discussion. Well, if you must know, I pretty much hate jazz. And yet I love Rhapsody in Blue. Go figure. That's an easy one -- Rhapsody in Blue isn't jazz. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Mar 9, 2005, at 2:49 PM, dhbailey wrote: That's an easy one -- Rhapsody in Blue isn't jazz. Well then, no wonder I like it! mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Christopher Smith wrote: subsequent ubiquity How many places will you see that used? Six brownie points! :) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
This was a bit before 1920 (I believe 1913) but it is one of my favorites: Charles Ives The Fourth of July from A Symphony: New England Holidays Strickly from the 20's, I'd have to say Duke Ellington's music while he was at the Cotton Club in the late 1920's. One of my favorites is The Mooche and if you'll let me stretch it to 1930, Mood Indigo of course! -Karen Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Darcy James Argue wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Ouch, it's a tricky time to picl favourites, but one composer had hes 'Decade Terribles', Varese - Ameriques, Integrales, Octandre, Arcana. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:53:21 -0500, Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. My favorite piece from that decade is, without a doubt, Schoenberg's Opus 25 Kavierstuecke. Especially the Gavotte. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Life would be so much easier if only (3/2)^12=(2/1)^7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:19:09 -0800, Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:53:21 -0500, Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. My favorite piece from that decade is, without a doubt, Schoenberg's Opus 25 Kavierstuecke. Especially the Gavotte. err, of course I meant to type Klavierstuecke. Or Klavierstücke, if you want, or even Piano Pieces if you're so inclined. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Life would be so much easier if only (3/2)^12=(2/1)^7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
I'll take you at your word here. For me it's a toss-up between Berg's Lyric Suite and Bix's solo in Singin' the Blues. John On 8 Mar 2005, at 23:53, Darcy James Argue wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:53 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. My vote goes for Puccini's Turandot, with second place to Rhapsody in Blue. Not quite serial nor Tin Pan Alley, but obliquely related in each case I may change my mind if someone reminds me of some great piece I'm forgetting, but most of my favorites turn out to be from 1910-1919. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
My vote goes to Respighi's Pines of Rome followed closely by Show Boat by Jerome Kern and Oscar Hammerstein II. Guy Hayden - Original Message - From: Mark D Lew [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:53 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. My vote goes for Puccini's Turandot, with second place to Rhapsody in Blue. Not quite serial nor Tin Pan Alley, but obliquely related in each case I may change my mind if someone reminds me of some great piece I'm forgetting, but most of my favorites turn out to be from 1910-1919. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Darcy James Argue wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. - Darcy Stravinsky: Symphonies of Wind Instruments (1920), Pulchinella (1919-20) Ives: Orchestral Set Nr. 2 (rev. ca. 1925) Antheil: Ballet méchanique (1927) Bartok: Dance Suite (1923), String Quartet Nr. 4 (1928) Cowell: The Banshee (1925) Milhaud: Six Petites Symphonies Puccini: Turandot (-1924, compl. 1926) Sibelius: Sinfonia 7 (1924), Tapiola (1926) Varese: Hyperprism (1922-3), Ionization (1929-31) Webern: Three Lieder, for voice, E flat clarinet and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitarguitar, opus 18 (1925 Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Here are a few: Bartok: The Miraculous Mandarin (1926); 4th Quartet (1928) Stravinsky: Symphonies of Wind Instruments (1920); Octet for Winds (1923); (stretch it to 1930 and we'll through in the Symphony of Psalms!) Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue (preferably original version, not the orchestral version) (1924), An American in Paris (1928) Louis Armstrong: Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings of 1925-28 submitted by Raymond Horton Darcy James Argue wrote: Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Sol Ho'opi'I anything from his acoustic swing days. Bonus if anyone knows who this is. anything by Oscar Aleman ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Sol Ho'opi'i is well known in Hawai'i, of course, as a steel guitar player. At 11:16 PM 3/8/2005 -0500, Adriel wrote: Sol Ho'opi'I anything from his acoustic swing days. Bonus if anyone knows who this is. anything by Oscar Aleman ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale - Bruce K. H. Kau[EMAIL PROTECTED] 'Aina Haina, Honolulu, Hawai'i Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning ... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
on 3/8/05 1:37 PM, Bruce K H Kau at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sol Ho'opi'i is well known in Hawai'i, of course, as a steel guitar player. Yep and he can swing too :) eeer could ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s
Olivier Messiaen: Turangalila Symphony Per Ottar - Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 12:53 AM Subject: [Finale] OT: Best Works of the 1920s Just taking a little straw poll here: what do listers consider the best pieces of music to come out of the 1920's? Genre is unimportant -- go ahead and nominate Tin Pan Alley songs and Jelly Roll Morton pieces alongside serial works, if you like. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
