At 12:29 AM -0500 1/16/11, Christopher Smith wrote:
On Sat Jan 15, at SaturdayJan 15 11:46 PM, John Howell wrote:
Thanks, Ray. Yes, what I remembered from Mars is that he
consistently used dotted half tied to half for full-bar notes.
(And throughout divided the same way in the 5/4
On 15 Jan 2011, at 01:52, David W. Fenton wrote:
4/4+3/4 in a repeating pattern, and that would require time signature
changes in the score (whether you displayed them or not),
I've dealt with even this by having 7/4 bars, dotting the intermediate
barlines down the parts with notes in them
On 15 Jan 2011, at 03:53, Raymond Horton wrote:
Using the old vertical and horizontal bits for multi-measures may
give you a
warm feeling, but even the few players who know what they are do not
generally bother to read them - they only read the number of total
bars rest
instead. If you
It's not that difficult. Try giving your viol ensemble facsimiles of the
original parts (without barlines of course) and then — while playing — each
player marks and/or _remembers_ the main cadences, which are then used as
rehearsal marks. You can be pretty sure that this is the way they did it
John,
They couldn't. ;-) Somewhere in my readings I came across the remark by a
theoretician of Philippe de Vitry's generation to the effect that the
ancients (by which he means the Notre Dame and Petronian composers) used to
spend hours arguing about whether a note should be sung long or
At 2:21 PM +0100 1/15/11, Eric Fiedler wrote:
John,
They couldn't. ;-) Somewhere in my readings I came across the remark
by a theoretician of Philippe de Vitry's generation to the effect
that the ancients (by which he means the Notre Dame and
Petronian composers) used to spend hours arguing
Planets score is at IMSLP.ORG
On Jan 15, 2011 12:27 AM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote:
At 12:27 PM -0800 1/13/11, Ryan wrote:
Opinion poll:
What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the
duration
of a 5/4 bar?
1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the
On 15 Jan 2011 at 13:44, John Howell wrote:
And of course one has to assume that the Parisians didn't invent the
rhythmic modes just as a theoretical exercise, but because they were
already singing some music rhythmically but had no means to notate it.
Composition and notation have
On 15 Jan 2011 at 14:41, Eric Fiedler wrote:
It's not that difficult. Try giving your viol ensemble facsimiles of
the original parts (without barlines of course) and then while
playing each player marks and/or _remembers_ the main cadences,
which are then used as rehearsal marks.
This
At 2:50 PM -0500 1/15/11, Raymond Horton wrote:
Planets score is at IMSLP.ORG
On Jan 15, 2011 12:27 AM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote:
I'm trying to remember what Holst did in The Planets, but I can't.
But it made it easy to read and play.
Thanks, Ray. Yes, what I remembered
On Sat Jan 15, at SaturdayJan 15 11:46 PM, John Howell wrote:
Thanks, Ray. Yes, what I remembered from Mars is that he consistently used
dotted half tied to half for full-bar notes. (And throughout divided the
same way in the 5/4 sections.) And dotted whole tied to whole in the 5/2
On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote:
Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty
measures in any meter.
Not in 4/2.
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
Really? Why? What is ambiguous about a centered whole rest in an empty measure
of 4/2?
If a whole rest appears in a non-empty measure, it won't be centered -- it will
be attached to a beat. And, you know, there will also be notes in the measure.
Cheers,
- DJA
-
WEB:
I sent a message about this from my iPhone but I think the list's spam
filter must have caught it. Ross suggests that industry practice (obviously,
when he was writing) was to use double-whole rests for 4/2 and longer
meters. I would further extrapolate that quadruple whole (meaning a thick
line
Yes, and the main reason is that a centred semibreve rest is practically
identical to a semibreve rest on the second semibreve of a 4/2 bar. This is
extremely confusing in contrapuntal writing, especially (but not
exclusively) if multiple (two or three) voices are written on a single
staff.
Hi Robert,
I know it's tradition but it's one that feels awfully antiquated to me. I also
disagree with Ross on 7/4: I have no problem using (non-centered) metrical
whole rests in 7/4 -- in 4+3 or 3+4 subdivisions, they often help clarify the
nature of the subdivision. And of course I use
Hi Andrew,
Ah -- I hadn't considered the possibility of multiple voices on a single staff.
You have a point there.
Cheers,
- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org
On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:18 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote:
Yes, and the main reason is that a centred semibreve rest is
I would stipulate that if the practice is less prevalent now, it is
primarily due to ignorance (caused among other things by notation program
defaults) and the fact that 4/2 and longer meters are so extremely rare in
contemporary music. That said, I expect most editors for major publishing
houses
Hi Robert,
As I said, my experience is that whole rests in 7/4 (and half rests in 7/8)
increase clarity. If, for instance, the beaming pattern in 7/8 is 4+3, why
*wouldn't* you use a half rest for the 4? The whole point is to help the
reader see the 4+3 subdivision instantly, not obscure it.
I've had a look over my own scores which have 4/2 in them.
In practice the single semibreve rest doesn't seem ambiguous.
Especially with consecutive empty bars of 3/2 and 4/2 different whole
bar rests look funny.
Steve P.
On 14 Jan 2011, at 16:42, Robert Patterson wrote:
I would stipulate
FWIW: The famous 11/4 bar in the Rite of Spring has regular whole rests in
the tacet staves.
As for use of half-rests in 7/8, etc., it's your music and (I presume) you
aren't contending with an editor, so do it however you like. I do not do it
that way, however.
At 7:43 PM +1030 1/14/11, Andrew Moschou wrote:
On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote:
Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty
measures in any meter.
Not in 4/2.
Yes, I've been told that. My feeling is that only an idiot
Yes, the rule about needing more than a whole rest in larger meters is
archaic.
I keep my critical edition of the Rite next to other notation manuals. Most
situations are encountered in it.
Raymond Horton
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Robert Patterson
rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Raymond Horton
horton.raym...@gmail.comwrote:
Yes, the rule about needing more than a whole rest in larger meters is
archaic.
Hmmm. Says you. The 11/4 bar in the Rite notwithstanding, the last time I
wrote a piece in 4/2, all of a sudden the double whole rest
If you use a double whole rest in successive measures, will Finale create
the appropriate multi-measure rest automatically?
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Robert Patterson
rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote:
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Raymond Horton
horton.raym...@gmail.comwrote:
On 1/14/2011 11:18 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote:
Yes, and the main reason is that a centred semibreve rest is practically
identical to a semibreve rest on the second semibreve of a 4/2 bar. This is
extremely confusing in contrapuntal writing, especially (but not
exclusively) if multiple (two or
No, getting Finale to do it requires lots of extra manual steps. That's why
it is understandable that many users may not see the value in it, especially
since the practice is in flux.
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com wrote:
If you use a double whole rest in successive
On 1/14/2011 11:26 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Hi Andrew,
Ah -- I hadn't considered the possibility of multiple voices on a single staff.
You have a point there.
But, in your defense, you did say otherwise empty or some such
indication, and in a bar with multiple voices on the same staff,
I always use the 'archaic' multibar rests up to seven bars, with a
number.
I like them!
Steve P.
On 14 Jan 2011, at 19:18, Robert Patterson wrote:
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Raymond Horton
horton.raym...@gmail.comwrote:
Yes, the rule about needing more than a whole rest in larger
Yes, you can get Finale to show a double-whole rest as the DEFAULT rest, but
only for the entire document, so you will have to adopt other tactics if you
have a changing time signature.
Document OptionsNotes and RestsRest Characters scroll to Default Measure Rest
and select character 227 (on
I do too. But I use them for up to 9 bars.
I've seen some in published editions that go up to 32 bars or even more.
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Steve Parker st...@pinkrat.co.uk wrote:
I always use the 'archaic' multibar rests up to seven bars, with a number.
I like them!
Steve P.
At 1:19 PM -0800 1/14/11, Ryan wrote:
I do too. But I use them for up to 9 bars.
I've seen some in published editions that go up to 32 bars or even more.
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Steve Parker st...@pinkrat.co.uk wrote:
I always use the 'archaic' multibar rests up to seven bars, with
On 1/14/2011 2:30 PM, Ryan wrote:
If you use a double whole rest in successive measures, will Finale create
the appropriate multi-measure rest automatically?
No -- Finale only creates multi-measure rests automatically if the
measures are completely empty. Finale's default whole rests are
On 14 Jan 2011 at 9:53, Robert Patterson wrote:
To my eye, a whole rest in a 4/2 bar, even if it is centered, is
ambiguous. That is because it also appears as a half-bar rest in that
meter. In no shorter meter can a whole rest appear as a partial bar
rest. Even in 6/2 or 7/4, Ross prescribes
On 14 Jan 2011 at 13:40, Robert Patterson wrote:
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com wrote:
If you use a double whole rest in successive measures, will Finale
create the appropriate multi-measure rest automatically?
No, getting Finale to do it requires lots of
On 14 Jan 2011, at 22:43, David W. Fenton wrote:
Unfortunately, there's one passage that alternates bars of 4/2 and
3/1, and so that's going to have to be written-out empty measures, as
any kind of multi-measure rest would be way confusing.
Not sure if relevant..
If strict alternation, then
On 14 Jan 2011 at 23:34, Steve Parker wrote:
On 14 Jan 2011, at 22:43, David W. Fenton wrote:
Unfortunately, there's one passage that alternates bars of 4/2 and
3/1, and so that's going to have to be written-out empty measures,
as any kind of multi-measure rest would be way confusing.
At 5:43 PM -0500 1/14/11, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 14 Jan 2011 at 17:11, John Howell wrote:
But the practice goes back to the 13th century and was a necessary one
in music in which barlines were never used. THAT is what makes it
archaic, since using a number automatically makes it a
On 14 Jan 2011 at 20:26, John Howell wrote:
At 5:43 PM -0500 1/14/11, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 14 Jan 2011 at 17:11, John Howell wrote:
But the practice goes back to the 13th century and was a necessary
one in music in which barlines were never used. THAT is what
makes it archaic,
At 7:05 PM -0500 1/14/11, David W. Fenton wrote:
I still marvel at the fact that they could keep this stuff together
just by counting the right number of whole notes.
Not necessarily whole notes (semibreves). Going back to the first
mensural notation in the late 13th century, one has to
At 8:52 PM -0500 1/14/11, David W. Fenton wrote:
I'm not sure I'd finger Finale's problems with being measure-based
here for the issue, as I think creating countable rests is something
that transcends the issue of how the stuff is notated. As I said, I
don't know how you rehearse without
At 12:27 PM -0800 1/13/11, Ryan wrote:
Opinion poll:
What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration
of a 5/4 bar?
1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or
2+3
2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other to reflect the
At 2:06 PM -0800 1/13/11, Ryan wrote:
Raymond, I'd LOVE to use Crumb's notation, but there's no quick easy way
to get that into Finale.
Thanks for all your opinions. Seems like I agree with most of you. Now,
here's a follow-up:
I'm working on a piece in 5/4. The composer wrote this as kind of
On 1/13/2011 3:57 PM, John Howell wrote:
At 12:27 PM -0800 1/13/11, Ryan wrote:
Opinion poll:
What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the
duration
of a 5/4 bar?
1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is
3+2 or
2+3
2) Using a Halfs and Dotted
On 1/13/2011 3:27 PM, Ryan wrote:
Opinion poll:
What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration
of a 5/4 bar?
1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or
2+3
2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other to reflect the
2.
Cheers,
- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org
On 13 Jan 2011, at 3:27 PM, Ryan wrote:
Opinion poll:
What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration
of a 5/4 bar?
1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or
option 2) - always.
Cheers,
Lawrence
On 13 January 2011 20:27, Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com wrote:
Opinion poll:
What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the
duration
of a 5/4 bar?
1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or
2+3
2)
Or, you could use Crumb's 5-beat note:
.o.
A whole note with a dot before and after.The thinking is - the dot
before the note takes away half of the value of the dot after.
Actually, I only saw this in smaller note values - 5/8 or 5/16. Like so
many recent composers, Crumb prefers little
Even for a very clear 1+2+2 or 2+2+1 I would still treat it as 3+2 or
2+3 respectively for a 5 count note.
Steve P.
On 13 Jan 2011, at 21:02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
On Thu, January 13, 2011 3:27 pm, Ryan wrote:
What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the
On 13 Jan 2011, at 20:27, Ryan wrote:
Opinion poll:
What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the
duration
of a 5/4 bar?
1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is
3+2 or
2+3
Ugh...
2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other
Raymond, I'd LOVE to use Crumb's notation, but there's no quick easy way
to get that into Finale.
Thanks for all your opinions. Seems like I agree with most of you. Now,
here's a follow-up:
I'm working on a piece in 5/4. The composer wrote this as kind of a sequel
to another piece he wrote in
Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty
measures in any meter.
Cheers,
- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org
On 13 Jan 2011, at 5:08 PM, Steve Parker wrote:
Yes. Also never use a whole rest.
___
Offer to the other piece correctly for him (for a fee of course)
Cheers,
Lawrence
On 13 January 2011 22:06, Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com wrote:
Raymond, I'd LOVE to use Crumb's notation, but there's no quick easy way
to get that into Finale.
Thanks for all your opinions. Seems like I agree
Yes, I should have been clearer. [Quarter note followed by whole rest]
and the opposite are what I meant.
Steve P.
On 13 Jan 2011, at 22:24, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for
empty measures in any meter.
Cheers,
- DJA
-
WEB:
On 13 Jan 2011, at 22:06, Ryan wrote:
'm working on a piece in 5/4. The composer wrote this as kind of a
sequel
to another piece he wrote in 5/4. Someone else engraved that other
piece and
used the whole-tied-to-quarter method. For consistency's sake, I'm
wondering
if I should follow the
At 10:08 PM + 1/13/11, Steve Parker wrote:
On 13 Jan 2011, at 20:27, Ryan wrote:
Opinion poll:
What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration
of a 5/4 bar?
1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or
2+3
Ugh...
2) Using a
I should have been clearer. If the entire bar is empty then a whole
rest is needed.
But I would never write [Quarter note followed by whole rest] or its
opposite.
Steve P.
On 14 Jan 2011, at 00:09, John Howell wrote:
Yes. Also never use a whole rest. If the division is unclear I
usually
57 matches
Mail list logo
