Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-04 Thread Francesco Rizzo 
Cari Tutti,
Krassimir Markov ha ragione. L'informazione è un processo spazio-temporale
statico-dinamico. Un'opera d'arte o un bene culturale è nello stesso tempo
informato e informatore.Per questo è meglio parlare di tras-informazione.
La Neuroinformation è la più alta e completa forma di tras-informazione
emo-ra-zionale (intelligenza razionale e intelligenza emotiva). Essa si
articola in : significazione, informazione, comunicazione. Triade semiotica
indispensabile per comprendere e interpretare ogni  esistenza e ogni
conoscenza del mondo fisico, psichico e metafisico. Qualunque scienza
naturale o umana o sociale non può farne a meno.
Grazie e auguri per Carolina Isiegas.
Francesco Rizzo.


2014-12-04 15:57 GMT+01:00 Krassimir Markov :

>   Dear Bob,
> I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may
> be a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it
> is.
> For instance, we reflect the world around:
> - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.;
> - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.;
> - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical
> imaginations in our consciousness.
> Friendly regards
> Krassimir
>
> PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next
> one!
>
>
>
>  *From:* Bob Logan 
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM
> *To:* Joseph Brenner 
> *Cc:* fis@listas.unizar.es
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
>
> Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information
> in general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun.
> Inspired by Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that "Information
> is a verb" It is a verb because it describes a process. Although that
> solves one problem we need to be able to describe a set of signs that have
> the potential to initiate the process of informing through interpretation.
> I would not suggest we create another word but recognize that the word
> information has many meanings and that when it is describing a process it
> has a verb-like quality to it and when it describes a set of sign that have
> the potential to be interpreted and hence become information it is acting
> as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple definition of the term
> information is not possible because its meaning is so context dependent.
> This is true of all words but even more so for information. For those that
> agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those that do not
> it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan
>  __
>
> Robert K. Logan
> Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto
> Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
> http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
> www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
> www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:
>
>  Dear Dr. Isiegas,
>
> I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres
> in the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I
> like to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its
> 'structure' being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic
> (better spiral or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and
> inhibition. I have ascribed an extension of logic to this form of
> alternating actual and potential states in complex processes at all levels
> of reality.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Joseph B.
>
> - Original Message - From: "Robert E. Ulanowicz" 
> To: "Carolina Isiegas" 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
>
>
> Dear Dr. Isiegas:
>
> I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
> network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
> discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
> network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
> .
>
> Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
> sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
> the "structural information" inhering in the neuronal network. John
> Collier (also a FISer) calls such information "enformation" to draw
> attention to its different nature.
>
> With best wishes for success,
>
> Bob Ulanowicz
>
> Dear list,
>
>
>I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
>
> exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific
>
> backgound
>
> (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the
>
> topic of neuroinformation, how information "exists" within the Central
>
> Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in
>
> investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,
>
> specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such
>
> brain
>
> functions

Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-04 Thread Krassimir Markov 
Dear Bob,
I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may be a 
process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it is.
For instance, we reflect the world around:
- as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.; 
- as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.; 
- and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical 
imaginations in our consciousness.
Friendly regards
Krassimir

PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next one!



From: Bob Logan 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM
To: Joseph Brenner 
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in 
general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by 
Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that "Information is a verb" It is 
a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need 
to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the 
process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create 
another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that 
when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it 
describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence 
become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple 
definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so 
context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. 
For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those 
that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan

__ 

Robert K. Logan
Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto 
Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD 
http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan 
www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications













On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:


  Dear Dr. Isiegas,

  I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in 
the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like to 
call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being 
dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or 
sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have 
ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and potential 
states in complex processes at all levels of reality.

  Best wishes,

  Joseph B.

  - Original Message - From: "Robert E. Ulanowicz" 
  To: "Carolina Isiegas" 
  Cc: 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?


  Dear Dr. Isiegas:

  I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
  network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
  discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
  network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
  .

  Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
  sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
  the "structural information" inhering in the neuronal network. John
  Collier (also a FISer) calls such information "enformation" to draw
  attention to its different nature.

  With best wishes for success,

  Bob Ulanowicz


Dear list,



   I have been reading during the last year all these interesting

exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific

backgound

(Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the

topic of neuroinformation, how information "exists" within the Central

Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in

investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,

specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such

brain

functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I

spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I

could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions

and

in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the

synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the

"information flow" within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex

that

in the "simple" pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for

you "Fishers" or "Fisers", how should we contemplate the micro and macro

structures of information within the neural realm? what is

Neuroinformation?



Best wishes,





--

Carolina Isiegas

___

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Fis

Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-04 Thread Bob Logan 
Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in 
general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by 
Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that "Information is a verb" It is 
a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need 
to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the 
process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create 
another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that 
when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it 
describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence 
become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple 
definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so 
context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. 
For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those 
that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan
__

Robert K. Logan
Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto 
Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD
http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan
www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications








On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:

> Dear Dr. Isiegas,
> 
> I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in 
> the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like 
> to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being 
> dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or 
> sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have 
> ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and 
> potential states in complex processes at all levels of reality.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Joseph B.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Robert E. Ulanowicz" 
> To: "Carolina Isiegas" 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
> 
> 
> Dear Dr. Isiegas:
> 
> I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
> network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
> discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
> network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
> .
> 
> Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
> sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
> the "structural information" inhering in the neuronal network. John
> Collier (also a FISer) calls such information "enformation" to draw
> attention to its different nature.
> 
> With best wishes for success,
> 
> Bob Ulanowicz
> 
>> Dear list,
>> 
>>I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
>> exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific
>> backgound
>> (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the
>> topic of neuroinformation, how information "exists" within the Central
>> Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in
>> investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,
>> specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such
>> brain
>> functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I
>> spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I
>> could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions
>> and
>> in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the
>> synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the
>> "information flow" within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex
>> that
>> in the "simple" pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for
>> you "Fishers" or "Fisers", how should we contemplate the micro and macro
>> structures of information within the neural realm? what is
>> Neuroinformation?
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Carolina Isiegas
>> ___
>> Fis mailing list
>> Fis@listas.unizar.es
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Fis mailing list
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> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis 
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> Fis@listas.unizar.es
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Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-04 Thread Krassimir Markov 
Dear Pedro, Carolina and FIS Colleagues,

Firstly I want to congratulate Pedro and team for new FIS web site!
It looks nice and I am sure it will be useful tool for all of us.

Secondly – what is Neuroinformation?  
>From point of view of General Information Theory, it is needed a Subject for 
>which the reflection became information after receiving the evidence what the 
>reflection reflects.
But what we have into the Subject?
Does he operate with information or only with signals and reflections? 
Who is/are internal Sub-Subject(s) and evidence(s)? 
After receiving answers to these questions we may create hypothesizes what is 
Neuroinformation.

I have my own understanding but it will be more good to listen other opinions.

What has been investigated by Neuroscience till now?

Friendly regards
Krassimir








From: Carolina Isiegas 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 2:46 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

Dear list,


I have been reading during the last year all these interesting exchanges. 
Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound (Molecular 
Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the topic of 
neuroinformation, how information "exists" within the Central Nervous Systems. 
My task was experimental; I was interested in investigating the molecular 
mechanisms underlying learning and memory, specifically, the role of the 
cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at 
the University of Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated several 
genetically modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of this 
pathway in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of 
upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels. However, 
I am conscious that the "information flow" within the mouse Nervous System is 
far more complex that in the "simple" pathway that I was studying...so, my 
concrete question for you "Fishers" or "Fisers", how should we contemplate the 
micro and macro structures of information within the neural realm? what is 
Neuroinformation?


Best wishes,



-- 

Carolina Isiegas




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[Fis] FIS is now officially using Sciforum - http://fis.sciforum.net/

2014-12-04 Thread Pedro C. Marijuan 

Dear FIS colleagues ("Fishers"?),

Some good news, FIS is now officially using Sciforum web pages at:

http://fis.sciforum.net/

As I explained months ago, after the nasty computer crash at the 
University of Zaragoza, we have finally arranged the new official fis 
web site, in a 2.0 format that we can handle directly. Little by little 
we will introduce new contents and will restore the whole archive of fis 
messages. Thanks are due to Sciforum (which also helped us to organize 
past fis conferences, within the MDPI organization) . The nice fis new 
logo --have a glance-- is due to Fernando Abadia (IACS), and both Raquel 
del Moral of my group and Dietrich Rordorf  (Sciforum) have personally 
contributed to the beginning of the new pages; Antonio-Paulo Ubieto has 
helped us as well. Warm personal thanks are due to Shu-Kun Lin for his 
long time support to fis.


In a next message I will respond to Carolina Isiegas' enticing posting 
on neuroinformtion (thanks for the exciting theme!)


best wishes

---Pedro

--
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

2014-12-04 Thread Joseph Brenner 

Dear Dr. Isiegas,

I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in 
the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like 
to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' 
being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral 
or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have 
ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and 
potential states in complex processes at all levels of reality.


Best wishes,

Joseph B.

- Original Message - 
From: "Robert E. Ulanowicz" 

To: "Carolina Isiegas" 
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?


Dear Dr. Isiegas:

I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
.

Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
the "structural information" inhering in the neuronal network. John
Collier (also a FISer) calls such information "enformation" to draw
attention to its different nature.

With best wishes for success,

Bob Ulanowicz


Dear list,

I have been reading during the last year all these interesting
exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific
backgound
(Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the
topic of neuroinformation, how information "exists" within the Central
Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in
investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,
specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such
brain
functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I
spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I
could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions
and
in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the
synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the
"information flow" within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex
that
in the "simple" pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for
you "Fishers" or "Fisers", how should we contemplate the micro and macro
structures of information within the neural realm? what is
Neuroinformation?

Best wishes,


--
Carolina Isiegas
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