Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-14 Thread David Hunter
I think the fact that this list is pretty inactive says it all.

I'm freelancing at an agency right now who I make AIR apps for. I used to
make a lot of them for a few years, but recently I think they are looking
more and more at html5/js solutions. A few years ago I used to make Flash
websites for them, but never any more; then I made AIR apps, and now that
seems on the slide... it's a shame for all the reasons we already know.

The only other work I get with Flash is the occasional banner ad!

I'm sure there are still some niche areas for Flash, but largely it feels
dead from where I sit.

David

David Hunter

www.davidhunterdesign.com
+44 (0) 7869 104 906
@DHDPIC


On 10 May 2013 16:31, Kevin Newman capta...@unfocus.com wrote:

 That seems to be mostly about ASNext/AVMNext which has since been canned,
 and the developers moved not back to AS3, but to webkit and other web tech.

 Kevin N.




 On 5/10/13 7:20 AM, John McCormack wrote:

 Alex Harui at Adobe had these interesting things to say:
 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/**group/flexcoders/message/**165517http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/message/165517
 John


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-14 Thread Karl DeSaulniers
This is probably a moot point, but being the platform flash is and its ability 
to manipulate objects and apply code to the interactions of the objects in an 
easy user friendly layout, it would seem that Adobe would look into enabling 
flash to pick if it used ActionScript or Javascript or even a jQuery port. 
Along with choosing a flash stage or a DOM stage. I for one would relish in the 
ability to use flash as a html creator, html5, DHTML or otherwise. Being able 
to layout HTML DOM elements the same way as a movieclip, or adding DHTML 
timelines inside a DIV and having flash export the files to make it work in 
every browser. That would be epic. Its not about the language or the file it 
exports, for me, Flash the application is just a superlative website creation 
tool. SWF or not.  In the past flash came in and did what HTML could not. Ok, 
so you lead the pack for a while and they caught up. So now join the pack and 
take it to the next level. That's what Flash is/was about... t!
 he next level. 2¢

Best,

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com



On May 14, 2013, at 4:55 AM, David Hunter wrote:

 I think the fact that this list is pretty inactive says it all.
 
 I'm freelancing at an agency right now who I make AIR apps for. I used to
 make a lot of them for a few years, but recently I think they are looking
 more and more at html5/js solutions. A few years ago I used to make Flash
 websites for them, but never any more; then I made AIR apps, and now that
 seems on the slide... it's a shame for all the reasons we already know.
 
 The only other work I get with Flash is the occasional banner ad!
 
 I'm sure there are still some niche areas for Flash, but largely it feels
 dead from where I sit.
 
 David
 
 David Hunter
 
 www.davidhunterdesign.com
 +44 (0) 7869 104 906
 @DHDPIC
 
 
 On 10 May 2013 16:31, Kevin Newman capta...@unfocus.com wrote:
 
 That seems to be mostly about ASNext/AVMNext which has since been canned,
 and the developers moved not back to AS3, but to webkit and other web tech.
 
 Kevin N.
 
 
 
 
 On 5/10/13 7:20 AM, John McCormack wrote:
 
 Alex Harui at Adobe had these interesting things to say:
 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/**group/flexcoders/message/**165517http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/message/165517
 John
 
 
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-10 Thread John McCormack

Alex Harui at Adobe had these interesting things to say:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/message/165517
John


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-10 Thread Kevin Newman

Gospel.

Kevin N.


On 5/9/13 11:18 AM, James Merrill wrote:

From my perspective as a former Flash Developer at an Ad agency, I can't
imagine us getting any more serious Flash work. These days we still use
Flash for banner ads, but that's it. We've tried using Adobe Edge to do
HTML5 banners, but it was an awful experience. I rest ALL of my blame on
Adobe for both of these situations, not the underlying technologies.

If you're betting on Adobe, you're going to lose. They've royally screwed
up how they handled this whole Flash fiasco in the last five years. I have
ZERO faith in their Edge HTML5 platform, and I suggest that you don't buy
the hype. Adobe makes good designs software, and that's it.

As AS3 Flash developers, we understand the complexities of RIA's much
better than your average Javascript programmer. We've been doing AJAX far
before it was popularized in mainstream web development. It was sendAndLoad
to us in AS2. We understand animation, interactivity, and user experience
much more than most. That's our strength, and it transcends Flash. A lot of
you may not believe me, but it's becoming a reality that you can make Flash
quality experiences in modern browsers.

As for coding HTML5/CSS/JS in an opensource IDE with Greensock JS, Angular,
or even Jquery, it's getting better. Javascript is not as elegant as AS3,
actually it's more akin to AS2... But progress is being made with new
releases of ECMAScript, and MV* frameworks like Backbone and Angular.

I miss the good ole days of Flash... But times are exciting as a web
developer, I've found some comfort in embracing the change.


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-10 Thread Kevin Newman
That seems to be mostly about ASNext/AVMNext which has since been 
canned, and the developers moved not back to AS3, but to webkit and 
other web tech.


Kevin N.



On 5/10/13 7:20 AM, John McCormack wrote:

Alex Harui at Adobe had these interesting things to say:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/message/165517
John


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread James Merrill
From my perspective as a former Flash Developer at an Ad agency, I can't
imagine us getting any more serious Flash work. These days we still use
Flash for banner ads, but that's it. We've tried using Adobe Edge to do
HTML5 banners, but it was an awful experience. I rest ALL of my blame on
Adobe for both of these situations, not the underlying technologies.

If you're betting on Adobe, you're going to lose. They've royally screwed
up how they handled this whole Flash fiasco in the last five years. I have
ZERO faith in their Edge HTML5 platform, and I suggest that you don't buy
the hype. Adobe makes good designs software, and that's it.

As AS3 Flash developers, we understand the complexities of RIA's much
better than your average Javascript programmer. We've been doing AJAX far
before it was popularized in mainstream web development. It was sendAndLoad
to us in AS2. We understand animation, interactivity, and user experience
much more than most. That's our strength, and it transcends Flash. A lot of
you may not believe me, but it's becoming a reality that you can make Flash
quality experiences in modern browsers.

As for coding HTML5/CSS/JS in an opensource IDE with Greensock JS, Angular,
or even Jquery, it's getting better. Javascript is not as elegant as AS3,
actually it's more akin to AS2... But progress is being made with new
releases of ECMAScript, and MV* frameworks like Backbone and Angular.

I miss the good ole days of Flash... But times are exciting as a web
developer, I've found some comfort in embracing the change.



On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Kevin Newman capta...@unfocus.com wrote:

 On 5/8/13 2:20 PM, John R. Sweeney Jr. wrote:

 Please tell me another software that I can build an app that runs on
 PC/MAC/Linux/iPad/Android/Web (non-mobile)?

 NME / haXe, or with a bit of additional work, Xamarin (with the various
 Mono ports) - or Unity3D - based on the same tech. There are dozens of
 C/C++ based cross platform frameworks as well - Cocos2D, MarmaladeSDK, etc.
 Some scripting engines, CoronaSDK, LoomScript, etc. I still think Flash has
 an edge (except maybe over Xamarin), but tell that to Adobe.

 I wish Adobe was as enthusiastic about defending Flash as you are. That
 would go a long way toward convincing potential buyers, that the platform
 isn't going to evaporate tomorrow. As I said in another post - Flash and
 AIR are great tech, but Adobe's public support is nonexistent, which is
 sad, because it wouldn't take much.

 Kevin N.


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RE: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Marco Terrinoni
Everything James said. Also where once the Creative suite provided an entire
pipeline for workflow I can honestly say we barely touch it anymore. A
little FW and PS. Maybe a little Illustrator from time to time but that's
it. With their new licensing model I think they're singing their own death
certificate because most savvy designers know the software doesn't change
much over a short enough period to warrant a monthly subscription and will
find alternatives



Marco Terrinoni - Director
MULARAM  PRODUCTIONS
web design // animation // illustration
uk: +44 7876 652 643
e: ma...@mularam.com  
w: www.mularam.com 

-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of James
Merrill
Sent: 09 May 2013 16:19
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

From my perspective as a former Flash Developer at an Ad agency, I 
can't
imagine us getting any more serious Flash work. These days we still use
Flash for banner ads, but that's it. We've tried using Adobe Edge to do
HTML5 banners, but it was an awful experience. I rest ALL of my blame on
Adobe for both of these situations, not the underlying technologies.

If you're betting on Adobe, you're going to lose. They've royally screwed up
how they handled this whole Flash fiasco in the last five years. I have ZERO
faith in their Edge HTML5 platform, and I suggest that you don't buy the
hype. Adobe makes good designs software, and that's it.

As AS3 Flash developers, we understand the complexities of RIA's much better
than your average Javascript programmer. We've been doing AJAX far before
it was popularized in mainstream web development. It was sendAndLoad to us
in AS2. We understand animation, interactivity, and user experience much
more than most. That's our strength, and it transcends Flash. A lot of you
may not believe me, but it's becoming a reality that you can make Flash
quality experiences in modern browsers.

As for coding HTML5/CSS/JS in an opensource IDE with Greensock JS, Angular,
or even Jquery, it's getting better. Javascript is not as elegant as AS3,
actually it's more akin to AS2... But progress is being made with new
releases of ECMAScript, and MV* frameworks like Backbone and Angular.

I miss the good ole days of Flash... But times are exciting as a web
developer, I've found some comfort in embracing the change.



On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Kevin Newman capta...@unfocus.com wrote:

 On 5/8/13 2:20 PM, John R. Sweeney Jr. wrote:

 Please tell me another software that I can build an app that runs on 
 PC/MAC/Linux/iPad/Android/Web (non-mobile)?

 NME / haXe, or with a bit of additional work, Xamarin (with the 
 various Mono ports) - or Unity3D - based on the same tech. There are 
 dozens of C/C++ based cross platform frameworks as well - Cocos2D,
MarmaladeSDK, etc.
 Some scripting engines, CoronaSDK, LoomScript, etc. I still think 
 Flash has an edge (except maybe over Xamarin), but tell that to Adobe.

 I wish Adobe was as enthusiastic about defending Flash as you are. 
 That would go a long way toward convincing potential buyers, that the 
 platform isn't going to evaporate tomorrow. As I said in another post 
 - Flash and AIR are great tech, but Adobe's public support is 
 nonexistent, which is sad, because it wouldn't take much.

 Kevin N.


 __**_
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.**com 
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/**mailman/listinfo/flashcodershttp://cha
 ttyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders




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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Mike Chambers
Check out CreateJS:

http://www.createjs.com/

Includes the ability to export from Flash Pro.

mike chambers

m...@adobe.com

On May 8, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Liu, Peter p...@geico.com wrote:

 Why can't Adobe make HTML5 as one of the publishing options, then we can 
 continue to use Flash without the need to learn another program?


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Jon Bradley
Nice to see you're still lurking, mesh :)

CreateJS looks interesting and I've toyed with it a bit. Some of the new 
integration opportunities with Flash CC will be interesting to check out. 
However, it'll be primarily a toy and best for demo work until (and if) Adobe 
can create a clear professional solution for the development of creative 
application apps in HTML.

Edge tooling doesn't cut it for robust, performant and maintainable code – at 
least not even close to the same ballpark as those in the space had with 
Flex/Flash. There's some interesting things going on there though.

-j



On May 9, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Mike Chambers wrote:

 Check out CreateJS:
 
 http://www.createjs.com/
 
 Includes the ability to export from Flash Pro.
 
 mike chambers
 
 m...@adobe.com
 
 On May 8, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Liu, Peter p...@geico.com wrote:
 
 Why can't Adobe make HTML5 as one of the publishing options, then we can 
 continue to use Flash without the need to learn another program?
 
 
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread James Merrill
Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
the right direction.

I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from the
glory days of Flash.






On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Jon Bradley shiftedpix...@gmail.comwrote:

 Nice to see you're still lurking, mesh :)

 CreateJS looks interesting and I've toyed with it a bit. Some of the new
 integration opportunities with Flash CC will be interesting to check out.
 However, it'll be primarily a toy and best for demo work until (and if)
 Adobe can create a clear professional solution for the development of
 creative application apps in HTML.

 Edge tooling doesn't cut it for robust, performant and maintainable code –
 at least not even close to the same ballpark as those in the space had with
 Flex/Flash. There's some interesting things going on there though.

 -j



 On May 9, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Mike Chambers wrote:

  Check out CreateJS:
 
  http://www.createjs.com/
 
  Includes the ability to export from Flash Pro.
 
  mike chambers
 
  m...@adobe.com
 
  On May 8, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Liu, Peter p...@geico.com wrote:
 
  Why can't Adobe make HTML5 as one of the publishing options, then we
 can continue to use Flash without the need to learn another program?
 
 
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Weyert de Boer
I think the main issue with EDGE is that it generates such big files. I haven't 
been able to create a useful banner animation with it. Well, one that meets the 
maximum file size for a HTML5 banner. Only the Edge script is already bigger ;)

Yes, I have to admit CreateJS looks promising.

 Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
 the right direction.
 
 I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
 always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
 view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
 libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
 These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
 visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from the
 glory days of Flash.
 


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Jon Bradley
Yea, that's why it's excellent for demoware. The suite clearly allows creatives 
to demonstrate work and it adds a fair amount of value to prototyping/demo work.

In the keynote, we saw Photoshop to Edge Reflow export – a very useful step to 
PS CC to export graphics quickly and have them in-place to being conceptual 
demo work. Not a single bit of that is production-worthy though – at least not 
the type of production work the company I work for does.

Of course, once you go to Edge Reflow, there's nothing about the code it uses 
and methodology that's implemented that's something I'd ever put in to 
production.

That said, these are all very new tools with a very high potential associated 
with them. I have my fingers crossed that Adobe will do their best for the web 
(HTML/CSS3/Shaders, etc.) that they did by advancing the state-of-the-art with 
Flash.

These are exciting times. Adobe needs to integrate Adobe Ideas into their CC 
products so that they, and ourselves, can see and feedback within the product 
where we, as users, see the value and opportunity.

-j


On May 9, 2013, at 12:42 PM, Weyert de Boer wrote:

 I think the main issue with EDGE is that it generates such big files. I 
 haven't been able to create a useful banner animation with it. Well, one that 
 meets the maximum file size for a HTML5 banner. Only the Edge script is 
 already bigger ;)
 
 Yes, I have to admit CreateJS looks promising.
 
 Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
 the right direction.
 
 I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
 always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
 view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
 libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
 These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
 visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from the
 glory days of Flash.
 
 
 
 ___
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread tom rhodes
Did adobe really advance the state of the art with flash though? they did
stuff that the community was screaming for and had been for a long time. It
was often buggy too.

CreteJS is very nice, and it's only just started so I expect it to get
better. For the web I've already done a couple of things with Haxe using
the externs for CreateJS that compile to flash and canvas using exensively
the same code. Just have a class to manage the creation of assets which has
the different code required for Containers/Sprites and the differences in
handling text.  Then your logic stays the same for both targets, you can
even use TimelineMax seamlessly on those assets. It's a very nice way to
work and you get to cover IE6/7 etc. with flash and the iOS/android/devices
with canvas.

Anyway Adobe have killed flash if flash is dead. They hndled the conflict
with Apple in the worst way possible and the negative publicity created
just snowballed to the point where the lesser technology won out. That's a
shit state of affairs in anyone's books.

I echo though the transferable skills from AS3. I started ages ago getting
in to Haxe and that experience is now opening doors for me to start messing
with other languages too.


On 9 May 2013 18:54, Jon Bradley shiftedpix...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yea, that's why it's excellent for demoware. The suite clearly allows
 creatives to demonstrate work and it adds a fair amount of value to
 prototyping/demo work.

 In the keynote, we saw Photoshop to Edge Reflow export – a very useful
 step to PS CC to export graphics quickly and have them in-place to being
 conceptual demo work. Not a single bit of that is production-worthy though
 – at least not the type of production work the company I work for does.

 Of course, once you go to Edge Reflow, there's nothing about the code it
 uses and methodology that's implemented that's something I'd ever put in to
 production.

 That said, these are all very new tools with a very high potential
 associated with them. I have my fingers crossed that Adobe will do their
 best for the web (HTML/CSS3/Shaders, etc.) that they did by advancing the
 state-of-the-art with Flash.

 These are exciting times. Adobe needs to integrate Adobe Ideas into their
 CC products so that they, and ourselves, can see and feedback within the
 product where we, as users, see the value and opportunity.

 -j


 On May 9, 2013, at 12:42 PM, Weyert de Boer wrote:

  I think the main issue with EDGE is that it generates such big files. I
 haven't been able to create a useful banner animation with it. Well, one
 that meets the maximum file size for a HTML5 banner. Only the Edge script
 is already bigger ;)
 
  Yes, I have to admit CreateJS looks promising.
 
  Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
  the right direction.
 
  I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
  always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
  view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
  libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
  These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
  visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from
 the
  glory days of Flash.
 
 
 
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Mike Chambers
Just an fyi, but this is something that we are working on addressing.

mike chambers

m...@adobe.com

On May 9, 2013, at 9:42 AM, Weyert de Boer w...@innerfuse.biz wrote:

 I think the main issue with EDGE is that it generates such big files. I 
 haven't been able to create a useful banner animation with it. Well, one that 
 meets the maximum file size for a HTML5 banner. Only the Edge script is 
 already bigger ;)
 
 Yes, I have to admit CreateJS looks promising.
 
 Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
 the right direction.
 
 I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
 always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
 view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
 libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
 These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
 visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from the
 glory days of Flash.
 
 
 
 ___
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread tom rhodes
the differences in the flash and createJS apis? or the state of affairs? ;)

no offence meant Mike, just the way it has played out has left a bitter
taste in a lot of peoples mouths I'd reckon. I've personally lost income
through it for sure as I now have to convince people that my skills are
transferable to other technologies, once that gets demonstrated though
there's still the problem of why hire the flash guy when they already had
their html/js/iOS/android/C/java man which they've been using for years :)

if I were in adobe's shoes i'd take a long hard look at Haxe and NME, not
only for targetting multiple platforms with one language but also using
that very same language on the server, the client and obviously that means
the serialized data that passes in between them.

I'd also lean towards opening up the platform instead of trying to monetize
it too hard. the stuff with the memory api plus stage3d meaning you have to
pay for the premium features was just ridiculous timing seeing as it meant
the very features which kept ithe platform head and shoulders above
anything else had a special tax applied.

anyway good luck with it, flash was a great , inventive community around a
really fantastic platform. somehow that all got lost, it would be great to
think it's not irreversible.


On 9 May 2013 20:15, Mike Chambers mcham...@adobe.com wrote:

 Just an fyi, but this is something that we are working on addressing.

 mike chambers

 m...@adobe.com

 On May 9, 2013, at 9:42 AM, Weyert de Boer w...@innerfuse.biz wrote:

  I think the main issue with EDGE is that it generates such big files. I
 haven't been able to create a useful banner animation with it. Well, one
 that meets the maximum file size for a HTML5 banner. Only the Edge script
 is already bigger ;)
 
  Yes, I have to admit CreateJS looks promising.
 
  Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
  the right direction.
 
  I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
  always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
  view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
  libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
  These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
  visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from
 the
  glory days of Flash.
 
 
 
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Cédric Muller
Flash will be here for the years to come. Gladly, it isn't the sexy thing where 
trendy buzzers are. So, there are less projects, but projects are still flowing 
here, at least on the top high client part.

I have no future, but Flash has one. Just look at all those HTML5 bad designs ;)

Le 8 mai 2013 à 16:40, natalia Vikhtinskaya a écrit :

 Hi
 What do you think about Flash technology in the near future? It is a
 pity but it seems that almost all clients have no interest in Flash
 projects.
 Do you think Adobe Flash has no future? Where to move from Flash?
 
 Thanks
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Kevin Newman
I think of Flash the way I think of Shockwave. There is still work out 
there, but not much, and less every minute.


Kevin N.



On 5/8/13 10:40 AM, natalia Vikhtinskaya wrote:

Hi
What do you think about Flash technology in the near future? It is a
pity but it seems that almost all clients have no interest in Flash
projects.
Do you think Adobe Flash has no future? Where to move from Flash?

Thanks
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RE: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Liu, Peter
Why can't Adobe make HTML5 as one of the publishing options, then we can 
continue to use Flash without the need to learn another program?

-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Newman
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 11:24 AM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

I think of Flash the way I think of Shockwave. There is still work out there, 
but not much, and less every minute.

Kevin N.



On 5/8/13 10:40 AM, natalia Vikhtinskaya wrote:
 Hi
 What do you think about Flash technology in the near future? It is a 
 pity but it seems that almost all clients have no interest in Flash 
 projects.
 Do you think Adobe Flash has no future? Where to move from Flash?

 Thanks
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Matt S.
It's effectively dead in the browser, except for some niche markets (game
dev, children's content, educational), but it will survive for a long time,
and has some potential in App and Game development across platforms.

The real problem is that in the tech world, being perceived as last-years
technology — the stuff the Olds are using — is the kiss of death, even if
the technology itself still has a lot of potential. Even if you *can* do
something with Flash, many developers, especially younger ones, would
sooner cut their swiping finger off than consider using it or admit to
having used it if they did. I can't count the number of times I've heard
people apologize when presenting something that was built in Flash, as
though it were shameful or unprofessional. That kind of stigma is tough for
any technology to overcome.

.m



On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:40 AM, natalia Vikhtinskaya natavi.m...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Hi
 What do you think about Flash technology in the near future? It is a
 pity but it seems that almost all clients have no interest in Flash
 projects.
 Do you think Adobe Flash has no future? Where to move from Flash?

 Thanks
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Henrik Andersson
Liu, Peter skriver:
 Why can't Adobe make HTML5 as one of the publishing options, then we can 
 continue to use Flash without the need to learn another program?
 

Because HTML5 doesn't do a good job at vector animation. The Flash
runtime is quite powerful. And it is difficult to replicate so much
work, even if you aren't aiming for content compatibility.

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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread John R. Sweeney Jr.
It's dead on the MOBILE browser.

There are tons of sites still using the power of Flash.

http://www.ebizmba.com/articles/best-flash-sites




John R. Sweeney Jr.
Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
OnDemand Interactive Inc
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




On May 8, 2013, at 10:31 AM, Matt S. wrote:

 It's effectively dead in the browser, 

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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread natalia Vikhtinskaya
Matt,  If we need to have animation/cartoon or games  on iPad and
Android what is the programme for both platform? Do you mean that
Flash can be used for both and that is why it has potential? What the
tech word can offer in this situation?

2013/5/8 Matt S. mattsp...@gmail.com:
 It's effectively dead in the browser, except for some niche markets (game
 dev, children's content, educational), but it will survive for a long time,
 and has some potential in App and Game development across platforms.

 The real problem is that in the tech world, being perceived as last-years
 technology — the stuff the Olds are using — is the kiss of death, even if
 the technology itself still has a lot of potential. Even if you *can* do
 something with Flash, many developers, especially younger ones, would
 sooner cut their swiping finger off than consider using it or admit to
 having used it if they did. I can't count the number of times I've heard
 people apologize when presenting something that was built in Flash, as
 though it were shameful or unprofessional. That kind of stigma is tough for
 any technology to overcome.

 .m



 On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:40 AM, natalia Vikhtinskaya natavi.m...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Hi
 What do you think about Flash technology in the near future? It is a
 pity but it seems that almost all clients have no interest in Flash
 projects.
 Do you think Adobe Flash has no future? Where to move from Flash?

 Thanks
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Micky Hulse
Personally, I still love Flash. I miss that I don't use it as often these days.

A few thoughts:

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, as it's not my industry, but isn't Flash
still one of the popular tools to use for video animation?
2. I love AS3! I'd take AS3 and the Flash GUI over HTML5 any day.
3. We do a lot of ad work at my company ... HTML5 animation is a
LONG way off. Even if we did do HTML5 anims, then the ad serving
software and ad networks would have to be on board too; I'm not
holding my breath on this one (have you seen the JS these people use?
Hell, they can't even get away from using multi-nested document.writes
which kills it if you're trying to do responsive loading of ads).
4. This is maybe tangentially related, but several months ago,
Facebook decided to go native app vs. using CSS3/HTML5 technology (as
an example of HTML5 getting mud in its eye).

Don't get me wrong, I think HTML5 is pretty cool stuff (compared to
its predecessor) but I think there's room to grow for both
technologies.

Then again, I'd hate to see Flash go the way of Director. Man, it's
been years since I last coded in Lingo script! :D
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread John R. Sweeney Jr.
And Director 12 came out a little while ago and compiles out to iPad. :)



John R. Sweeney Jr.
Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
OnDemand Interactive Inc
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




On May 8, 2013, at 12:16 PM, Micky Hulse wrote:

 Then again, I'd hate to see Flash go the way of Director. Man, it's
 been years since I last coded in Lingo script! :D

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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Micky Hulse
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:31 AM, John R. Sweeney Jr.
jr.swee...@comcast.net wrote:
 And Director 12 came out a little while ago and compiles out to iPad. :)

Wha??? That blows my mind. I thought Director was dead. Shows what I know! :D

So, is it any good these days? Director was a fun animation tool back
when I used it.
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread John R. Sweeney Jr.
Adobe didn't even make any kind of an announcement or anything. I'm a AUG  
manager and didn't hear about it there, but on LinkedIn when someone posted 
their 3D game, created in a pre-release version of D12 and running on a iPad. 
And running QUITE well I might add. :)



John R. Sweeney Jr.
Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
OnDemand Interactive Inc
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




On May 8, 2013, at 12:39 PM, Micky Hulse wrote:

 On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:31 AM, John R. Sweeney Jr.
 jr.swee...@comcast.net wrote:
 And Director 12 came out a little while ago and compiles out to iPad. :)
 
 Wha??? That blows my mind. I thought Director was dead. Shows what I know! :D
 
 So, is it any good these days? Director was a fun animation tool back
 when I used it.


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Kevin Newman

On 5/8/13 1:16 PM, Micky Hulse wrote:

Personally, I still love Flash. I miss that I don't use it as often these days.

A few thoughts:

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, as it's not my industry, but isn't Flash
still one of the popular tools to use for video animation?
It was popular for certain types of cartoon animation and motion 
graphics. But these days there are a lot of alternatives, especially 
After Affects, but also toon boom, etc.



2. I love AS3! I'd take AS3 and the Flash GUI over HTML5 any day.
AS3 is great. But we have alternatives. For apps, I've been looking at 
Xamarin which is mostly through C#. If you like AS3, you'll love C#. You 
can also use PlayScript or AS3 (and even Stage3D) on top of Xamarin if 
you like. I've been playing with it for a couple of weeks, and I have to 
say, it feels like going home again. I don't miss mobile AIR - Xamarin 
is what Adobe should have done for Flash/AIR devs years ago. HTML5 has a 
place in apps, but it's place is not to BE the app.



3. We do a lot of ad work at my company ... HTML5 animation is a
LONG way off. Even if we did do HTML5 anims, then the ad serving
software and ad networks would have to be on board too; I'm not
holding my breath on this one (have you seen the JS these people use?
Hell, they can't even get away from using multi-nested document.writes
which kills it if you're trying to do responsive loading of ads).
You could always use the various SWF - HTML5 converters, including 
Google's Swiffy, which is just fantastic (again, Adobe could have done 
that, but they farmed out CreateJS - wtf). 
https://www.google.com/doubleclick/studio/swiffy/



4. This is maybe tangentially related, but several months ago,
Facebook decided to go native app vs. using CSS3/HTML5 technology (as
an example of HTML5 getting mud in its eye).

Don't get me wrong, I think HTML5 is pretty cool stuff (compared to
its predecessor) but I think there's room to grow for both
technologies.

Then again, I'd hate to see Flash go the way of Director. Man, it's
been years since I last coded in Lingo script! :D
It's too late - Adobe has already pulled a large portion of their 
developers off of both Flash Pro and the Flash runtime, and cancelled 
FlashNext/AVMNext.  It's over. Time to move on.


I like Xamarin so far. It's cross platform, and provides access to 
native GUI toolkits, which is all most people need when they say they 
want a native app. The AS3/PlayScript front end that Zynga's employees 
threw together is icing on the cake. I hope this one gains some 
traction, cause it's pretty slick. I'm a little surprised more Flash/AS3 
developers haven't picked up on it yet, because I think it's a natural 
fit. Maybe PlayScript will prompt more of us to take another look at the 
technology.


In the web world, there's some great stuff happening, from AngularJS, 
Backbone.js, Node.js, jQuery, and the transpilers - TypeScript (very AS2 
like, only better) and CoffeeScript. Even Apache Flex is working rapidly 
on an HTML5 compile target and set of components.


These are increasingly two different worlds - two worlds Flash could 
have bridged, but Adobe didn't chose to move in that direction. But 
that's ok, cause these two worlds are pretty fun if you embrace them (or 
just one or the other).


Kevin N.

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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Kevin Newman
That's what I mean by I think of Flash as Directory/Shockwave. It's not 
dead, it's just not the job engine it was for a while. It's a much 
harder sell - but it's still possible, and still has its niches.


I still think Adobe could do some things to make it easier, even if they 
don't actively promote and as vigorously develop Flash. They could send 
a big signal that Flash is still alive, if they just mention is more, or 
rebrand AIR as Flash Apps (cause no one know what the heck AIR is - in 
fact, many still operate under the Flash is banned from the app store 
narrative that Adobe never quite countered). That'd go a long way to 
providing the necessary confidence that they are indeed maintaining it 
and standing behind at least what's already there, and that they aren't 
going to just pull the plug, which is the sense I think they've sent out 
into the market. It's truly next to impossible to sell AIR apps right now.


I've moved on anyway, and I suspect a lot of developers have done the 
same. I love Flash, and I think it's great tech. Adobe not so much.


Kevin N.


On 5/8/13 1:39 PM, Micky Hulse wrote:

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:31 AM, John R. Sweeney Jr.
jr.swee...@comcast.net wrote:

And Director 12 came out a little while ago and compiles out to iPad. :)

Wha??? That blows my mind. I thought Director was dead. Shows what I know! :D

So, is it any good these days? Director was a fun animation tool back
when I used it.
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Kevin Newman
That seems to be Adobe's general problem. They are very reactive, like 
used car salesmen. You want HTML5? Boy have we got HTML5! Clouds? We 
got clouds - on sale this week only! Technology companies can't succeed 
that way.


Kevin N.



On 5/8/13 1:58 PM, John R. Sweeney Jr. wrote:

Adobe didn't even make any kind of an announcement or anything.


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread John R. Sweeney Jr.
I don't think its a niche…

Please tell me another software that I can build an app that runs on 
PC/MAC/Linux/iPad/Android/Web (non-mobile)?

Till they have one, I can support all the platforms my clients want right now.


John R. Sweeney Jr.
Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
OnDemand Interactive Inc
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




On May 8, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Kevin Newman wrote:

 That's what I mean by I think of Flash as Directory/Shockwave. It's not dead, 
 it's just not the job engine it was for a while. It's a much harder sell - 
 but it's still possible, and still has its niches.

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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread John R. Sweeney Jr.
Right now there are over 25,000+ apps in the App store and/or iTunes. 


John R. Sweeney Jr.
Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
OnDemand Interactive Inc
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




On May 8, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Kevin Newman wrote:

 heck AIR is - in fact, many still operate under the Flash is banned from the 
 app store narrative that Adobe never quite countered). 


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread John R. Sweeney Jr.
I know many Flash developers that moved over to xCode or Java/Javascript.


John R. Sweeney Jr.
Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
OnDemand Interactive Inc
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




On May 8, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Kevin Newman wrote:

 Adobe not so much.

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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread natalia Vikhtinskaya
 Right now there are over 25,000+ apps in the App store and/or iTunes.

But they did not create in Flash I think.
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Matt S.
Dead might have been too strong, admittedly. But it's a hard sell. Partly
because every client has an iPad these days, and if their content doesn't
work on their iPad, all hell breaks loose, so its easier to dumb it down to
work with JS/CSS-based solutions.

And yes, there are amazing Flash sites, still. I love Flash, think AS3 is a
killer language and Flash a delight to work in. Its just increasingly
difficult to find Flash work, other than banner ads and video players at
one end, or the occasional amazing full-featured flash site at the high
end. The middle has dropped out. That's just my 2¢ though...

.m



On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, John R. Sweeney Jr. jr.swee...@comcast.net
 wrote:

 It's dead on the MOBILE browser.

 There are tons of sites still using the power of Flash.

 http://www.ebizmba.com/articles/best-flash-sites




 John R. Sweeney Jr.
 Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
 OnDemand Interactive Inc
 Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




 On May 8, 2013, at 10:31 AM, Matt S. wrote:

  It's effectively dead in the browser,

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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread John R. Sweeney Jr.
Of course the did!!!

There are over 500,000 apps up in the store. The 25k+ are native Flash builds.



John R. Sweeney Jr.
Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
OnDemand Interactive Inc
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




On May 8, 2013, at 1:28 PM, natalia Vikhtinskaya wrote:

 But they did not create in Flash I think.


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread John R. Sweeney Jr.
I've just brought 4 educational games (originally built) for the desktop, 2 
where projectors apps and two where AIR. All four are up in the iTunes store 
for sale on iPads. I'm doing 6 more and then building one from scratch 
specifically for the iPad in Flash.

Haven't done a website in three years. I build apps for touchscreens, kiosks, 
desktop, IOS and Android.


John R. Sweeney Jr.
Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
OnDemand Interactive Inc
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




On May 8, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Matt S. wrote:

  Its just increasingly
 difficult to find Flash work, other than banner ads and video players at
 one end, 


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread mike g
Have a look at what this guy has to say on the topic, it's worth a read:
(was posted Apr 26, 2013)

http://duboiseric.wordpress.com/category/is-flash-dead/
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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread John R. Sweeney Jr.
And it will only get better with Flash Professional CC. :)

http://www.adobe.com/products/flash.html



John R. Sweeney Jr.
Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
OnDemand Interactive Inc
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




On May 8, 2013, at 1:28 PM, natalia Vikhtinskaya wrote:

 
 But they did not create in Flash I think.

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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread John R. Sweeney Jr.
Sorry, but when someone says that HTML5 is replacing what can be done in Flash, 
I can't take them seriously. Flash made what you built look and act the same in 
all browsers. HTML5 is going the same path as every previous version. Features 
working some the same, some differently, some not at all from browser to 
browser. Apple is dragging its feet on supporting HTML5 standards, so people 
keep buying apps through their stores. That's why they didn't want Flash 
around. You could get tons for free, cool stuff on the INTERNET. Google has 
pulled away from webkit in support of their render engine Blink, because they 
are fed up with Apple. This is only going to divide our playback world even 
more. So much for standardization. HTML5 is more of a problem than a solution. 

But again, since I don't develop for the web much, I'll just keep giving my 
clients what they want now and wait to see what shakes out. :)


John R. Sweeney Jr.
Senior Interactive Multimedia Developer
OnDemand Interactive Inc
Hoffman Estates, IL 60169




On May 8, 2013, at 1:58 PM, mike g wrote:

 Have a look at what this guy has to say on the topic, it's worth a read:


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Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-08 Thread Kevin Newman

On 5/8/13 2:20 PM, John R. Sweeney Jr. wrote:

Please tell me another software that I can build an app that runs on 
PC/MAC/Linux/iPad/Android/Web (non-mobile)?
NME / haXe, or with a bit of additional work, Xamarin (with the various 
Mono ports) - or Unity3D - based on the same tech. There are dozens of 
C/C++ based cross platform frameworks as well - Cocos2D, MarmaladeSDK, 
etc. Some scripting engines, CoronaSDK, LoomScript, etc. I still think 
Flash has an edge (except maybe over Xamarin), but tell that to Adobe.


I wish Adobe was as enthusiastic about defending Flash as you are. That 
would go a long way toward convincing potential buyers, that the 
platform isn't going to evaporate tomorrow. As I said in another post - 
Flash and AIR are great tech, but Adobe's public support is nonexistent, 
which is sad, because it wouldn't take much.


Kevin N.

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