RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Here are a few helpful links to get you started if you've haven't already seen them. http://livedocs.adobe.com/flash/9.0/ActionScriptLangRefV3/migration.html http://livedocs.adobe.com/flex/3/langref/migration.html http://livedocs.adobe.com/flash/9.0/ActionScriptLangRefV3/runtimeErrors. html gregb -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 5:26 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? Thanks guys for your responses. Kerry, Too true. I've had to teach myself PHP, XML, MySQL, Javascript and I already knew HTML before I learned flash. I know there are a lot of AS2 jobs out there, but I live in a major city and major cities don't dwell in the older languages. So yeah, the scenario you were speaking of, just minus the wife. (but I digress) I really want to get into OOP and I feel like AS3 would be a better language to learn that in. I was going to learn it in AS2 just so I would know it, but that may be a good Learning AS3 project. Just don't want to bite off more than I can chew. I wish I already knew what the transitions were for the things I know how to code in AS2, but redoing all those projects in AS3 is what I have no time to do. So which of those other flash developing programs would be ok for doing AS2? Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote: Karl DeSaulniers wrote: I want to learn AS3, I really do, but it takes too much time away from making money for me that I find myself missing out. :( I wish it was easier to make the transition, but then everyone would be a AS3 developer, right. Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. COBOL used to be the dominant language for business apps. I haven't programmed in COBOL for 25 years, but I still see COBOL gigs posted. Once you get a sizable app built in a language, you have to have a compelling reason to switch to another. So, there are still COBOL programmers around, maintaining 20-year-old programs. I chose to teach myself AS3 because it's the future. I had a year of pretty low income while I was learning, and doing gigs at a reduced price to get practical experience. Fortunately, my wife earns enough that I could take that year to become proficient. Some people don't have that luxury. By the time you run out of AS2 gigs, you might be old enough to retire, or we might all be doing AS4, or some totally new environment and language. No one can predict the computer future with any accuracy, so we have to keep re-inventing ourselves every 3-5 years. In your career, you will probably need to learn at least 4 or 5 new languages--in my 30th year or programming, I'm on my 9th language. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Assuming that all the UI events created by one clock face (view) are included in the events on the other clock face (another view) and the events are defined by the business rules to have identical effects on the state of the application, then the same controller could be used for both. If two (or more) views generate identical UI events that have the identical effect upon the state of the application (change to the model), then I would use one controller. If one controller generates extra events, then I would use two controllers, with the more complex controller derived from the other controller. It would be possible to use conditional logic within one controller to handle multiple views, but this typically indicates the need for polymorphism (same message, different results), which is generally best implemented by having different classes. In my implementations, I have an class that represents the application that is the chicken or Main. The Main class has class variables for the model and each of the views. The model is created first, then I create a controller and a view, the controller is passed as a parameter to the view's constructor. The view is then registered as a listener with the model. I repeat the controller and view process as many times as needed. In the constructor method of the view class, the view class registers itself with the given model. Moock provides a good example of the MVC pattern in Essential AS 2.0. The example has the view classes create a default controller if one has not been provided, but I felt it easier to just require a controller to be provided in the constructor. As Moock indicates, there is no single right way to implement MVC. I think he provides an excellent discussion of the pattern and choices that a developer can make in implementing the pattern. Jim From: Karina Steffens kar...@neo-archaic.net To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 9:53:34 AM Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? In your framework, would the one controller for each view also mean that can be only one view per controller? I tend to use a single model for multiple views (the model could consist of a number of classes, but it's still one model layer), it might make sense to do the same with the controller. To clarify, I don't mean only one controller for all the views, more like clusters of views with a single controller in their middle. Or does that break the pattern? Another question about your implementation - who's the chicken and who's the egg? Does the view instantiate its controller, the controller the view, or a Main class that creates all? In my current implementation, I have a Main application class (linked to the stage) that creates the Model, the (limited) Controller, and passes the View (which is a symbol on the stage with Class Linkage) to the controller. The Controller's only function is to link them all together as Broadcaster listeners (all Views listen/broadcast to all Models. The Controller is the third part of the equation, because it can listen/broadcast to both Views and Models, but it sort of stops there. I also have some parts of the View interacting with each other via Broadcaster, but I'm beginning to think that this should really be the Controller's function - to intercept messages from one View to another: for example, from a PageView to the MainView, or from a ComponentView (eg the menu or breadcrumbs) to a PageView if necessity arises. Then on the smaller scale of Page or Component, I suppose each could have their own Controller class that's still linked to the main MVC structure, so that it can talk to the Model, but doesn't handle communications with other Views. Does that make sense to you guys, or am I overcomplicating here? Karina Hi Jim, Thanks for the comprehensive examples, especially the clock face. I guess another advantage then would be the ability to swap the view instead of the controller, and (for example) have text-only console like view for testing debugging? You might also say that Xray is another View. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
FlashDevelop - yes, you can code in AS2 - but if you want to compile without using the Flash IDE, you have to use the free Flex SDK, which means you have to use (well, I should say get to use) Actionscript 3.0. I'll echo what the others have said, take the plunge with AS 3.0 - you'll need to switch soon anyway, otherwise you can potentially lose clients and be stuck using old software. Just take some time to learn it in your spare time, and you'll soon see why you were losing efficiency coding in AS 2.0. Ask questions here, like I used to do this in AS2, how do I do that in AS3? - also look at the migration guides - they will show you how everything changed. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 5:40 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? Hi Jason, Real quick question. Kind-of based off what you guys are talking about. I currently work in Flash CS3 in AS2. I was wanting to try one of the other flash developing programs out there, but it seems the new releases of the ones you listed below are more AS3 geared. Can I still program in AS2 utilizing any of the programs you listed? Or am I the last AS2 developer on the planet and just need to get in line to the AS3 3rd period class? lol A nickel for your thoughts.. its hard times out there. Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote: FlashDevelop, FDT, FlexBuilder, anything can be used to compile Flash without Flash (or Flex). Well... yes, but with the Flex SDK as the compiler- not entirely on their own. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Hi Jim, Thanks for another extensive reply, and getting the discussion back on the MVC track ;) Assuming that all the UI events created by one clock face (view) are included in the events on the other clock face (another view) and the events are defined by the business rules to have identical effects on the state of the application, then the same controller could be used for both. If two (or more) views generate identical UI events that have the identical effect upon the state of the application (change to the model), then I would use one controller. If one controller generates extra events, then I would use two controllers, with the more complex controller derived from the other controller. It would be possible to use conditional logic within one controller to handle multiple views, but this typically indicates the need for polymorphism (same message, different results), which is generally best implemented by having different classes. This makes sense. I've been experimenting with my MVC framework (trying very hard not to break existing functionality...), and the way it seems to work best for me is to have: One manager Controller for the entire application, which does all the linking of the general structure. This can also be extended to listen to Broadcaster messages from all the loaded views in the application. A Model layer (a manager Model with child models that handle separate tasks all linked to the main Controller) A main View that can also load other views (pages, components, etc.) - which are most likely to be self-contained movies, but could also be linked symbols. Each View will contain either the manager Controller directly (for backward functionality) or its own personal assistant - the ChildController. The ChildController implements the same interface as the manager Controller, but instead of doing all the linking itself, it will register the View and itself with the manager Controller, and then proceed to implement its own functionality. It taps into the Model layer via the manager (but could also have its own personal Model for localised tasks). In my implementations, I have an class that represents the application that is the chicken or Main. The Main class has class variables for the model and each of the views. The model is created first, then I create a controller and a view, the controller is passed as a parameter to the view's constructor. The view is then registered as a listener with the model. I repeat the controller and view process as many times as needed. In the constructor method of the view class, the view class registers itself with the given model. This clarifies matters for pages or components that are created as standalone movies - the Main should create all the views models and controllers. But what about library symbols? If I have a component like a CustomButton, at the moment it just does everything in the MovieClip class. Since the buttons are not necessarily created with ActionScript but are more likely to already be on the stage, can the button's movie clip be both the View and the Main? Or should the button's View be a child of the linked symbol? Personally, I'm more comfortable coding by inheritance, even though I can see the advantages of composition. Moock provides a good example of the MVC pattern in Essential AS 2.0. The example has the view classes create a default controller if one has not been provided, but I felt it easier to just require a controller to be provided in the constructor. You can only do that if your View isn't already on the stage, but it's easy to get around by passing the controller to an existing View. As Moock indicates, there is no single right way to implement MVC. I think he provides an excellent discussion of the pattern and choices that a developer can make in implementing the pattern. Jim Thanks a mil for taking the time to clarify your approach. I hope mine, or what I'm trying to achieve, isn't miles away from it, or at least that it makes some sense. Karina ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
On 3/31/2010 7:32 AM, Merrill, Jason wrote: FlashDevelop - yes, you can code in AS2 - but if you want to compile without using the Flash IDE, you have to use the free Flex SDK, which means you have to use (well, I should say get to use) Actionscript 3.0. Incorrect. MTASC is used to compile AS2 outside of Flash, and comes with FlashDevelop. And, MTASC has a feature mxmlc doesn't in that it can do code injection into an existing swf, meaning you can take a .fla with lots of assets, publish it, and then just inject updated code inside of it without having to recompress all the assets again (especially fonts which can take a long time to code). ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Thanks for all your input. I am going to try and make the migration. Wish me luck. Karl Sent from losPhone On Mar 31, 2010, at 9:32 AM, Merrill, Jason jason.merr...@bankofamerica.com wrote: FlashDevelop - yes, you can code in AS2 - but if you want to compile without using the Flash IDE, you have to use the free Flex SDK, which means you have to use (well, I should say get to use) Actionscript 3.0. I'll echo what the others have said, take the plunge with AS 3.0 - you'll need to switch soon anyway, otherwise you can potentially lose clients and be stuck using old software. Just take some time to learn it in your spare time, and you'll soon see why you were losing efficiency coding in AS 2.0. Ask questions here, like I used to do this in AS2, how do I do that in AS3? - also look at the migration guides - they will show you how everything changed. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 5:40 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? Hi Jason, Real quick question. Kind-of based off what you guys are talking about. I currently work in Flash CS3 in AS2. I was wanting to try one of the other flash developing programs out there, but it seems the new releases of the ones you listed below are more AS3 geared. Can I still program in AS2 utilizing any of the programs you listed? Or am I the last AS2 developer on the planet and just need to get in line to the AS3 3rd period class? lol A nickel for your thoughts.. its hard times out there. Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote: FlashDevelop, FDT, FlexBuilder, anything can be used to compile Flash without Flash (or Flex). Well... yes, but with the Flex SDK as the compiler- not entirely on their own. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Oh, that's right, I had totally forgotten about MTASC - seems like eons since I've even thought about AS2 that I completely forgot about that. Either way, anyone working in AS2 out of choice (not because the client is strictly demanding it) should really be working in AS3 instead. That's sounds harsh, but AS3 has been out for years now and it's far better, and I think, easier more efficient to code with. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Steven Sacks Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:11 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? On 3/31/2010 7:32 AM, Merrill, Jason wrote: FlashDevelop - yes, you can code in AS2 - but if you want to compile without using the Flash IDE, you have to use the free Flex SDK, which means you have to use (well, I should say get to use) Actionscript 3.0. Incorrect. MTASC is used to compile AS2 outside of Flash, and comes with FlashDevelop. And, MTASC has a feature mxmlc doesn't in that it can do code injection into an existing swf, meaning you can take a .fla with lots of assets, publish it, and then just inject updated code inside of it without having to recompress all the assets again (especially fonts which can take a long time to code). ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. I disagree with that - what happens when you lose your job and have to put your resume out there? And IMO, it's nearly almost gone away anyway. Sure Flash player supports it still, but most developers have moved on. We recently hired a Flash developer as you know, and if the candidates didn't have AS3 on their resume, they were immediately discounted as a viable candidate. COBOL used to be the dominant language for business apps. I haven't programmed in COBOL for 25 years, but I still see COBOL gigs posted. Because there were still lots of huge systems built in that language - Flash apps are much more short lived than that, and while there may still be a few AS2 jobs out there, they are increasingly becoming fewer and fewer by the day. Besides, just because there are a small number jobs out there for COBOL doesn't mean you should continue to focus on that as a skill and bet your future career on it. I'd much rather be fluent in Phyton, C# or Java than COBOL any day. By the time you run out of AS2 gigs, you might be old enough to retire, I think it will happen much quicker than that - depending on how old you are though I suppose. I guess I don't see AS2 being as long lived as you do. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
I tend to agree with Jason here, I am a freelancer and I have missed out on a lot of jobs because I am not an AS3 developer. Your probably right on the ease of use and the functionality of AS3 being better, otherwise what would be the use of creating AS3. Again, thanks for all your comments. I am going to try to migrate as soon as I can. I know its just an amount of getting into it and getting it done. Best Regards, Karl DeSaulniers On Mar 31, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote: Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. I disagree with that - what happens when you lose your job and have to put your resume out there? And IMO, it's nearly almost gone away anyway. Sure Flash player supports it still, but most developers have moved on. We recently hired a Flash developer as you know, and if the candidates didn't have AS3 on their resume, they were immediately discounted as a viable candidate. COBOL used to be the dominant language for business apps. I haven't programmed in COBOL for 25 years, but I still see COBOL gigs posted. Because there were still lots of huge systems built in that language - Flash apps are much more short lived than that, and while there may still be a few AS2 jobs out there, they are increasingly becoming fewer and fewer by the day. Besides, just because there are a small number jobs out there for COBOL doesn't mean you should continue to focus on that as a skill and bet your future career on it. I'd much rather be fluent in Phyton, C# or Java than COBOL any day. By the time you run out of AS2 gigs, you might be old enough to retire, I think it will happen much quicker than that - depending on how old you are though I suppose. I guess I don't see AS2 being as long lived as you do. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Good idea.. thx On Mar 31, 2010, at 9:32 AM, Merrill, Jason wrote: Ask questions here, like I used to do this in AS2, how do I do that in AS3? - also look at the migration guides - they will show you how everything changed. Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
I didn't use AS3 until I had to a year and a half ago, Yahoo! IMVs started requiring AS3. The Facebook ActionScript API is AS3 as well and I'm sure there's many, many other similar examples. I predict you'll eventually have an opportunity that requires knowing AS 3! _ _ _ Erik Mattheis Senior Web Developer Minneapolis T 952 346 6610 C 612 377 2272 Weber Shandwick Advocacy starts here. PRWeek Global Agency Report Card 2009 - Gold Medal Winner The Holmes Report Global Agency of the Year PR News Agency of the Year -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:56 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? Thanks for that Kerry. I want to learn AS3, I really do, but it takes too much time away from making money for me that I find myself missing out. :( I wish it was easier to make the transition, but then everyone would be a AS3 developer, right. *Sigh* Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote: Karl DeSaulniers wrote: Or am I the last AS2 developer on the planet and just need to get in line to the AS3 3rd period class? I do recommend AS3, but you're far from the last doing AS2. I just finished up a 4-month AS2 contract, and last I heard, they were still looking for contractors who know AS2. When you have an extensive app or Web site built in AS2, switching to AS3 is really tough, especially when it's a popular site and expanding rapidly. There are lots of legacy AS2 gigs out there. I would still become an AS3 expert. That's where the real action is. Plus, you can use cool tools like Flex/FlexBuilder/Flashbuilder, and AS3 is just plain better than AS2. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
LOL, I need one of those printed migration chart posters to put on my wall. That would probably do it. :) Karl On Mar 31, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Mattheis, Erik (MIN - WSW) wrote: I didn't use AS3 until I had to a year and a half ago, Yahoo! IMVs started requiring AS3. The Facebook ActionScript API is AS3 as well and I'm sure there's many, many other similar examples. I predict you'll eventually have an opportunity that requires knowing AS 3! _ _ _ Erik Mattheis Senior Web Developer Minneapolis T 952 346 6610 C 612 377 2272 Weber Shandwick Advocacy starts here. PRWeek Global Agency Report Card 2009 - Gold Medal Winner The Holmes Report Global Agency of the Year PR News Agency of the Year -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders- boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:56 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? Thanks for that Kerry. I want to learn AS3, I really do, but it takes too much time away from making money for me that I find myself missing out. :( I wish it was easier to make the transition, but then everyone would be a AS3 developer, right. *Sigh* Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote: Karl DeSaulniers wrote: Or am I the last AS2 developer on the planet and just need to get in line to the AS3 3rd period class? I do recommend AS3, but you're far from the last doing AS2. I just finished up a 4-month AS2 contract, and last I heard, they were still looking for contractors who know AS2. When you have an extensive app or Web site built in AS2, switching to AS3 is really tough, especially when it's a popular site and expanding rapidly. There are lots of legacy AS2 gigs out there. I would still become an AS3 expert. That's where the real action is. Plus, you can use cool tools like Flex/FlexBuilder/Flashbuilder, and AS3 is just plain better than AS2. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Hey Karl - a few more things - check out the Migration Cheat Sheet for AS3 here: http://actionscriptcheatsheet.com/blog/quick-referencecheatsheet-for-act ionscript-20/ (Some of the other cheat sheets will be useful too.) Read through that and you'll start to get comfortable with the changes. It can seem painful at first, but start slow - for example, create a test project where you use AS3 to insert a Textfield on the screen and set a value on it - then create a button that removes it or something. Pretty soon you'll be off and running - and we'll be here to help. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 6:08 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? I tend to agree with Jason here, I am a freelancer and I have missed out on a lot of jobs because I am not an AS3 developer. Your probably right on the ease of use and the functionality of AS3 being better, otherwise what would be the use of creating AS3. Again, thanks for all your comments. I am going to try to migrate as soon as I can. I know its just an amount of getting into it and getting it done. Best Regards, Karl DeSaulniers On Mar 31, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote: Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. I disagree with that - what happens when you lose your job and have to put your resume out there? And IMO, it's nearly almost gone away anyway. Sure Flash player supports it still, but most developers have moved on. We recently hired a Flash developer as you know, and if the candidates didn't have AS3 on their resume, they were immediately discounted as a viable candidate. COBOL used to be the dominant language for business apps. I haven't programmed in COBOL for 25 years, but I still see COBOL gigs posted. Because there were still lots of huge systems built in that language - Flash apps are much more short lived than that, and while there may still be a few AS2 jobs out there, they are increasingly becoming fewer and fewer by the day. Besides, just because there are a small number jobs out there for COBOL doesn't mean you should continue to focus on that as a skill and bet your future career on it. I'd much rather be fluent in Phyton, C# or Java than COBOL any day. By the time you run out of AS2 gigs, you might be old enough to retire, I think it will happen much quicker than that - depending on how old you are though I suppose. I guess I don't see AS2 being as long lived as you do. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
LOL, I need one of those printed migration chart posters to put on my wall. That would probably do it. Wow - that's really weird! Like you read my last post before I even sent it - I just posted about a real cheat sheet and clicked send, then saw this comment. Funny. Well, your wish has been granted Pinocchio. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:25 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? LOL, I need one of those printed migration chart posters to put on my wall. That would probably do it. :) Karl On Mar 31, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Mattheis, Erik (MIN - WSW) wrote: I didn't use AS3 until I had to a year and a half ago, Yahoo! IMVs started requiring AS3. The Facebook ActionScript API is AS3 as well and I'm sure there's many, many other similar examples. I predict you'll eventually have an opportunity that requires knowing AS 3! _ _ _ Erik Mattheis Senior Web Developer Minneapolis T 952 346 6610 C 612 377 2272 Weber Shandwick Advocacy starts here. PRWeek Global Agency Report Card 2009 - Gold Medal Winner The Holmes Report Global Agency of the Year PR News Agency of the Year -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders- boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:56 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? Thanks for that Kerry. I want to learn AS3, I really do, but it takes too much time away from making money for me that I find myself missing out. :( I wish it was easier to make the transition, but then everyone would be a AS3 developer, right. *Sigh* Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote: Karl DeSaulniers wrote: Or am I the last AS2 developer on the planet and just need to get in line to the AS3 3rd period class? I do recommend AS3, but you're far from the last doing AS2. I just finished up a 4-month AS2 contract, and last I heard, they were still looking for contractors who know AS2. When you have an extensive app or Web site built in AS2, switching to AS3 is really tough, especially when it's a popular site and expanding rapidly. There are lots of legacy AS2 gigs out there. I would still become an AS3 expert. That's where the real action is. Plus, you can use cool tools like Flex/FlexBuilder/Flashbuilder, and AS3 is just plain better than AS2. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. Jason is right, and to his point: The interactive industry is probably one of the the fastest changing industries in the world. If you aren't willing to change (and I am not saying you are not willing Karl), pick a different career. As web developers, competence, being able to quickly learn and pick up on new technologies, etc. go hand in hand with being good at what we do. Sure that could be said for any field of work, but I think it's extremely relevant for this field. AS2 will be completely dead and irrelevant in 3 years, in 10 years from now Flash Player will probably not even support AS 2 content, if Flash Player itself is still relevant then. Talking about the web's future 10 years from now is generally not a good idea, so I am not going to go down that path. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Merrill, Jason jason.merr...@bankofamerica.com wrote: Hey Karl - a few more things - check out the Migration Cheat Sheet for AS3 here: http://actionscriptcheatsheet.com/blog/quick-referencecheatsheet-for-act ionscript-20/ (Some of the other cheat sheets will be useful too.) Read through that and you'll start to get comfortable with the changes. It can seem painful at first, but start slow - for example, create a test project where you use AS3 to insert a Textfield on the screen and set a value on it - then create a button that removes it or something. Pretty soon you'll be off and running - and we'll be here to help. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 6:08 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? I tend to agree with Jason here, I am a freelancer and I have missed out on a lot of jobs because I am not an AS3 developer. Your probably right on the ease of use and the functionality of AS3 being better, otherwise what would be the use of creating AS3. Again, thanks for all your comments. I am going to try to migrate as soon as I can. I know its just an amount of getting into it and getting it done. Best Regards, Karl DeSaulniers On Mar 31, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote: Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. I disagree with that - what happens when you lose your job and have to put your resume out there? And IMO, it's nearly almost gone away anyway. Sure Flash player supports it still, but most developers have moved on. We recently hired a Flash developer as you know, and if the candidates didn't have AS3 on their resume, they were immediately discounted as a viable candidate. COBOL used to be the dominant language for business apps. I haven't programmed in COBOL for 25 years, but I still see COBOL gigs posted. Because there were still lots of huge systems built in that language - Flash apps are much more short lived than that, and while there may still be a few AS2 jobs out there, they are increasingly becoming fewer and fewer by the day. Besides, just because there are a small number jobs out there for COBOL doesn't mean you should continue to focus on that as a skill and bet your future career on it. I'd much rather be fluent in Phyton, C# or Java than COBOL any day. By the time you run out of AS2 gigs, you might be old enough to retire, I think it will happen much quicker than that - depending on how old you are though I suppose. I guess I don't see AS2 being as long lived as you do. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
HAHAHA.. Thats great... Thanks for the link. Does this mean I have a great mind.. ? ;) Karl On Mar 31, 2010, at 7:30 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote: LOL, I need one of those printed migration chart posters to put on my wall. That would probably do it. Wow - that's really weird! Like you read my last post before I even sent it - I just posted about a real cheat sheet and clicked send, then saw this comment. Funny. Well, your wish has been granted Pinocchio. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:25 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? LOL, I need one of those printed migration chart posters to put on my wall. That would probably do it. :) Karl On Mar 31, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Mattheis, Erik (MIN - WSW) wrote: I didn't use AS3 until I had to a year and a half ago, Yahoo! IMVs started requiring AS3. The Facebook ActionScript API is AS3 as well and I'm sure there's many, many other similar examples. I predict you'll eventually have an opportunity that requires knowing AS 3! _ _ _ Erik Mattheis Senior Web Developer Minneapolis T 952 346 6610 C 612 377 2272 Weber Shandwick Advocacy starts here. PRWeek Global Agency Report Card 2009 - Gold Medal Winner The Holmes Report Global Agency of the Year PR News Agency of the Year -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders- boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:56 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? Thanks for that Kerry. I want to learn AS3, I really do, but it takes too much time away from making money for me that I find myself missing out. :( I wish it was easier to make the transition, but then everyone would be a AS3 developer, right. *Sigh* Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote: Karl DeSaulniers wrote: Or am I the last AS2 developer on the planet and just need to get in line to the AS3 3rd period class? I do recommend AS3, but you're far from the last doing AS2. I just finished up a 4-month AS2 contract, and last I heard, they were still looking for contractors who know AS2. When you have an extensive app or Web site built in AS2, switching to AS3 is really tough, especially when it's a popular site and expanding rapidly. There are lots of legacy AS2 gigs out there. I would still become an AS3 expert. That's where the real action is. Plus, you can use cool tools like Flex/FlexBuilder/Flashbuilder, and AS3 is just plain better than AS2. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
I agree Taka. I need to kick it into hight gear is the consensus I am hearing. So I am on it. I don't think it will be as painful as I was thinking, but we'll see what my learning curve is. I must admit (at the risk of brown nosing) I have enjoyed reading all of the posts on this list about AS3. It has helped and I am not even doing AS3 yet. There are a lot of professionals on this list. People who really know their stuff. I feel lucky to have found it. And Dave rocks.. My hat is off to all of you and my thanks for tolerating my dinosaur ass... :)) Karl On Mar 31, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Taka Kojima wrote: Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. Jason is right, and to his point: The interactive industry is probably one of the the fastest changing industries in the world. If you aren't willing to change (and I am not saying you are not willing Karl), pick a different career. As web developers, competence, being able to quickly learn and pick up on new technologies, etc. go hand in hand with being good at what we do. Sure that could be said for any field of work, but I think it's extremely relevant for this field. AS2 will be completely dead and irrelevant in 3 years, in 10 years from now Flash Player will probably not even support AS 2 content, if Flash Player itself is still relevant then. Talking about the web's future 10 years from now is generally not a good idea, so I am not going to go down that path. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Merrill, Jason jason.merr...@bankofamerica.com wrote: Hey Karl - a few more things - check out the Migration Cheat Sheet for AS3 here: http://actionscriptcheatsheet.com/blog/quick-referencecheatsheet- for-act ionscript-20/ (Some of the other cheat sheets will be useful too.) Read through that and you'll start to get comfortable with the changes. It can seem painful at first, but start slow - for example, create a test project where you use AS3 to insert a Textfield on the screen and set a value on it - then create a button that removes it or something. Pretty soon you'll be off and running - and we'll be here to help. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 6:08 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? I tend to agree with Jason here, I am a freelancer and I have missed out on a lot of jobs because I am not an AS3 developer. Your probably right on the ease of use and the functionality of AS3 being better, otherwise what would be the use of creating AS3. Again, thanks for all your comments. I am going to try to migrate as soon as I can. I know its just an amount of getting into it and getting it done. Best Regards, Karl DeSaulniers On Mar 31, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote: Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. I disagree with that - what happens when you lose your job and have to put your resume out there? And IMO, it's nearly almost gone away anyway. Sure Flash player supports it still, but most developers have moved on. We recently hired a Flash developer as you know, and if the candidates didn't have AS3 on their resume, they were immediately discounted as a viable candidate. COBOL used to be the dominant language for business apps. I haven't programmed in COBOL for 25 years, but I still see COBOL gigs posted. Because there were still lots of huge systems built in that language - Flash apps are much more short lived than that, and while there may still be a few AS2 jobs out there, they are increasingly becoming fewer and fewer by the day. Besides, just because there are a small number jobs out there for COBOL doesn't mean you should continue to focus on that as a skill and bet your future career on it. I'd much rather be fluent in Phyton, C# or Java than COBOL any day. By the time you run out of AS2 gigs, you might be old enough to retire, I think it will happen much quicker than that - depending on how old you are though I suppose. I guess I don't see AS2 being as long lived as you do. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Right there with you Taka - my co-workers and people who listen in on my Twitter feed (http://twitter.com/jmerrill_2001 if you're interested) probably think I'm an overzealous a Flash fanboy, which I probably am, but I'm also realistic and would switch to Silverlight development or HTML5 if it made sense to do so. But right now it would make no sense - maybe in a few years that will change. But for me, right now, Flash/Flex/AS3 is it. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Taka Kojima Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:39 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. Jason is right, and to his point: The interactive industry is probably one of the the fastest changing industries in the world. If you aren't willing to change (and I am not saying you are not willing Karl), pick a different career. As web developers, competence, being able to quickly learn and pick up on new technologies, etc. go hand in hand with being good at what we do. Sure that could be said for any field of work, but I think it's extremely relevant for this field. AS2 will be completely dead and irrelevant in 3 years, in 10 years from now Flash Player will probably not even support AS 2 content, if Flash Player itself is still relevant then. Talking about the web's future 10 years from now is generally not a good idea, so I am not going to go down that path. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Merrill, Jason jason.merr...@bankofamerica.com wrote: Hey Karl - a few more things - check out the Migration Cheat Sheet for AS3 here: http://actionscriptcheatsheet.com/blog/quick-referencecheatsheet-for-act ionscript-20/ (Some of the other cheat sheets will be useful too.) Read through that and you'll start to get comfortable with the changes. It can seem painful at first, but start slow - for example, create a test project where you use AS3 to insert a Textfield on the screen and set a value on it - then create a button that removes it or something. Pretty soon you'll be off and running - and we'll be here to help. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 6:08 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? I tend to agree with Jason here, I am a freelancer and I have missed out on a lot of jobs because I am not an AS3 developer. Your probably right on the ease of use and the functionality of AS3 being better, otherwise what would be the use of creating AS3. Again, thanks for all your comments. I am going to try to migrate as soon as I can. I know its just an amount of getting into it and getting it done. Best Regards, Karl DeSaulniers On Mar 31, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote: Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. I disagree with that - what happens when you lose your job and have to put your resume out there? And IMO, it's nearly almost gone away anyway. Sure Flash player supports it still, but most developers have moved on. We recently hired a Flash developer as you know, and if the candidates didn't have AS3 on their resume, they were immediately discounted as a viable candidate. COBOL used to be the dominant language for business apps. I haven't programmed in COBOL for 25 years, but I still see COBOL gigs posted. Because there were still lots of huge systems built in that language - Flash apps are much more short lived than that, and while there may still be a few AS2 jobs out there, they are increasingly becoming fewer and fewer by the day. Besides, just because there are a small number jobs out there for COBOL doesn't mean you should continue to focus on that as a skill and bet your future career on it. I'd much rather be fluent in Phyton, C# or Java than COBOL any day. By the time you run out of AS2 gigs, you might be old enough to retire, I think it will happen much quicker than that - depending on how old you are though I suppose. I guess I don't see AS2 being as long lived as you do. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
reading through the docs for robot legs left me feeling a bit lost wth is [Inject] and why have i never heard of it before? a On 29 March 2010 23:54, Steven Sacks flash...@stevensacks.net wrote: MVC Public Service Announcement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91C7ax0UAAc If you want to learn about MVC, pick up the Ruby on Rails book. I suggest you use RobotLegs, which uses Mediators and Commands instead of Controllers. RobotLegs is better suited for the world of Flash than MVC, which Flash blurs the lines between with MovieClip. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Very cheesy and very funny :) I suppose in my case it's the View that's gotten too fat, and the Controller is over starved... I'll have a look at RobotLegs, to see what best practices can be learned from it. Karina -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders- boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Steven Sacks Sent: 29 March 2010 11:55 To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? MVC Public Service Announcement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91C7ax0UAAc If you want to learn about MVC, pick up the Ruby on Rails book. I suggest you use RobotLegs, which uses Mediators and Commands instead of Controllers. RobotLegs is better suited for the world of Flash than MVC, which Flash blurs the lines between with MovieClip. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
While html and css would certainly be part of the View, and the database (MySQL, XML or any other way of holding data) would be part of the Model layer, I agree with Dave that php is not, strictly speaking, a Controller. I think that PHP (or ASP, or any server-side language) would more likely to be all three put together - it gets the data from the database, it handles application logic, and it can be used to write html directly into the page. It would in fact be possible to split all your php code into Model, View, and Controller classes, if you wanted to, use another class-based design pattern, or skip all of that altogether. On the other hand, you might also simply split PHP into the View and Model components, and skip the Controller altogether. Or if you take a simple script that works in conjunction with a Flash application, PHP is more likely to be part of the Model and nothing else, since Flash would be handling presentation and logic. -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders- boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Dave Watts Sent: 29 March 2010 6:04 To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? there is plenty of commentary out there to suggest that the controller is largely unnecessary and that the views can do it all as encapsulated objects (i've even read something by someone much smarter than me [ http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?MvcIsNotObjectOriented] that suggested that the c in mvc was anti-oop) but for me the benefit for the controller is that i can create functionality separate from design. I don't think it's really anti-OOP as much as irrelevant to OOP. The controller has nothing to do with your object domain model, it's just a mechanism to get messages from views to models or other views, and vice-versa. if you look at the html / php / mysql model, mvc has a very natural flow - the mysql database and the php interact much like the controller (php) and the model (mysql) and the result is then fed to the views (the served html page). Strictly speaking, that's not how most web application developers categorize the components of an MVC design (despite what the Wikipedia page says). PHP (or whatever application server you're using) would serve both as the controller and the views, and perhaps even the model as well. PHP itself doesn't really encourage this sort of separation (although it doesn't prevent it either), but for example, in a Java web app you might use JSP for your views, and a single servlet as a controller, and beans as your model. And of course, JSPs, servlets and beans are all just Java code. But, generally speaking, views are responsible for their own rendering, which typically requires server-side logic. If the view isn't responsible for its own rendering (which would be the case in a static HTML view, then the design pattern in question might better be described as Model-View-Presenter (MVP): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_View_Presenter Now, this doesn't take into consideration the use of client-side functionality and where that fits, but that presumably would just be additional view logic. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
yeh - i over simplied that example and ended up with the wrong answer On 30 March 2010 14:25, Karina Steffens kar...@neo-archaic.net wrote: While html and css would certainly be part of the View, and the database (MySQL, XML or any other way of holding data) would be part of the Model layer, I agree with Dave that php is not, strictly speaking, a Controller. I think that PHP (or ASP, or any server-side language) would more likely to be all three put together - it gets the data from the database, it handles application logic, and it can be used to write html directly into the page. It would in fact be possible to split all your php code into Model, View, and Controller classes, if you wanted to, use another class-based design pattern, or skip all of that altogether. On the other hand, you might also simply split PHP into the View and Model components, and skip the Controller altogether. Or if you take a simple script that works in conjunction with a Flash application, PHP is more likely to be part of the Model and nothing else, since Flash would be handling presentation and logic. -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders- boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Dave Watts Sent: 29 March 2010 6:04 To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? there is plenty of commentary out there to suggest that the controller is largely unnecessary and that the views can do it all as encapsulated objects (i've even read something by someone much smarter than me [ http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?MvcIsNotObjectOriented] that suggested that the c in mvc was anti-oop) but for me the benefit for the controller is that i can create functionality separate from design. I don't think it's really anti-OOP as much as irrelevant to OOP. The controller has nothing to do with your object domain model, it's just a mechanism to get messages from views to models or other views, and vice-versa. if you look at the html / php / mysql model, mvc has a very natural flow - the mysql database and the php interact much like the controller (php) and the model (mysql) and the result is then fed to the views (the served html page). Strictly speaking, that's not how most web application developers categorize the components of an MVC design (despite what the Wikipedia page says). PHP (or whatever application server you're using) would serve both as the controller and the views, and perhaps even the model as well. PHP itself doesn't really encourage this sort of separation (although it doesn't prevent it either), but for example, in a Java web app you might use JSP for your views, and a single servlet as a controller, and beans as your model. And of course, JSPs, servlets and beans are all just Java code. But, generally speaking, views are responsible for their own rendering, which typically requires server-side logic. If the view isn't responsible for its own rendering (which would be the case in a static HTML view, then the design pattern in question might better be described as Model-View-Presenter (MVP): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_View_Presenter Now, this doesn't take into consideration the use of client-side functionality and where that fits, but that presumably would just be additional view logic. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Hi Jim, Thanks for the comprehensive examples, especially the clock face. I guess another advantage then would be the ability to swap the view instead of the controller, and (for example) have text-only console like view for testing debugging? You might also say that Xray is another View. In your framework, would the one controller for each view also mean that can be only one view per controller? I tend to use a single model for multiple views (the model could consist of a number of classes, but it's still one model layer), it might make sense to do the same with the controller. To clarify, I don't mean only one controller for all the views, more like clusters of views with a single controller in their middle. Or does that break the pattern? Another question about your implementation - who's the chicken and who's the egg? Does the view instantiate its controller, the controller the view, or a Main class that creates all? In my current implementation, I have a Main application class (linked to the stage) that creates the Model, the (limited) Controller, and passes the View (which is a symbol on the stage with Class Linkage) to the controller. The Controller's only function is to link them all together as Broadcaster listeners (all Views listen/broadcast to all Models. The Controller is the third part of the equation, because it can listen/broadcast to both Views and Models, but it sort of stops there. I also have some parts of the View interacting with each other via Broadcaster, but I'm beginning to think that this should really be the Controller's function - to intercept messages from one View to another: for example, from a PageView to the MainView, or from a ComponentView (eg the menu or breadcrumbs) to a PageView if necessity arises. Then on the smaller scale of Page or Component, I suppose each could have their own Controller class that's still linked to the main MVC structure, so that it can talk to the Model, but doesn't handle communications with other Views. Does that make sense to you guys, or am I overcomplicating here? Karina -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders- boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lafser Sent: 29 March 2010 6:37 To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? When I've implemented MVC: * I have one controller for each view * Each view knows about it's controller, but only as a generic controller (either as an interface or a base class) * Each View registers it's controller as the event listener for each of it's buttons. * Each controller translates a generic call in itself into a specific call to the model that may or may not cause a state change. * In response to state changes, the model notifies all views. * The notification can include the state change information, OR * The view can request the state change information from the model. * The view changes updates what is presented to the user as needed based on the change in state. The reason to implement the listener in the controller is to separate the implementation of the business logic from the display logic. This makes the implementation of the specific function on the model independent of the generic function on the view. Example: an application has several views that each have a next and previous button. Each view registers the next button with its controllers next function. Each controller provides next and previous functions that invoke one or more methods on the model that may cause a state change. This provides a decoupling of the business logic from the display logic. If I want to change what is displayed, or how it is displayed, I change the view. If I want to change the response to user input, I change the controller. An example of why this is nice: I've got a clock face that I want to use as a stop watch (elapsed time) and as a timer (count-down timer). View could be identical, and just change the controller to change the functionality. Start, Stop and Reset would all have different meanings that are handled by the controller. I know that a bug in the timer code is independent of the stop watch code. In certain situations, it may be beneficial to implement a view as another instance of the MVC pattern. An example of this would be where a user is making choices in a configuration, and those choices don't get saved into the application state until the OK or Apply button is clicked. While the choices are being made, the views internal state is stored in the views model, and when OK is clicked the choices get stored into the application's model. Whether or not it's worthwhile to implement a view as another internal MVC pattern depends upon the complexity of the view vs. the added complexity of the overall system. IMHO, the choice should be to go with what makes the overall system the easiest
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
If you know the basics of MVC, then you should be able to learn RobotLegs. [Inject] is SwiftSuspenders metadata, which RobotLegs uses. Just because it's foreign to you doesn't mean it's not worth learning. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Seems Robotlegs was built for Flex and requires some alterations (documented on their site) in order for it to work with Flash. How much effort is involved in that, do you know? Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Steven Sacks Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:35 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? If you know the basics of MVC, then you should be able to learn RobotLegs. [Inject] is SwiftSuspenders metadata, which RobotLegs uses. Just because it's foreign to you doesn't mean it's not worth learning. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
RobotLegs was built for AS3, not Flex. I am using it in a pure AS3 project right now. It's easy to setup for Flash IDE. http://www.helmutgranda.com/2009/12/02/robotlegs-and-flash-ide-cs4-injection/ Believe me, it's worth learning. RobotLegs is amazing. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
though obviously, using mxmlc to compile makes it a lot easier. FlashDevelop, FDT, FlexBuilder, anything can be used to compile Flash without Flash (or Flex). ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
OK - because when I checked into it a few months ago, they had something on their site that said it was currently only available for Flex. Even still, I know it's an AS3 framework, but they have information in the help section about what to do to make it work in Flash CS* because it doesn't work with it out of the box as it does for Flex. Good to see Helmut's post about setting it up for Flash CS* - looks pretty straightforward, I'll check it out. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Steven Sacks Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:09 PM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? RobotLegs was built for AS3, not Flex. I am using it in a pure AS3 project right now. It's easy to setup for Flash IDE. http://www.helmutgranda.com/2009/12/02/robotlegs-and-flash-ide-cs4-injec tion/ Believe me, it's worth learning. RobotLegs is amazing. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
FlashDevelop, FDT, FlexBuilder, anything can be used to compile Flash without Flash (or Flex). Well... yes, but with the Flex SDK as the compiler- not entirely on their own. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Hi Jason, Real quick question. Kind-of based off what you guys are talking about. I currently work in Flash CS3 in AS2. I was wanting to try one of the other flash developing programs out there, but it seems the new releases of the ones you listed below are more AS3 geared. Can I still program in AS2 utilizing any of the programs you listed? Or am I the last AS2 developer on the planet and just need to get in line to the AS3 3rd period class? lol A nickel for your thoughts.. its hard times out there. Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Merrill, Jason wrote: FlashDevelop, FDT, FlexBuilder, anything can be used to compile Flash without Flash (or Flex). Well... yes, but with the Flex SDK as the compiler- not entirely on their own. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Learning Learning Performance Solutions Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Community and visit our Instructional Technology Design Blog (note: these are for Bank of America employees only) ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Karl DeSaulniers wrote: Or am I the last AS2 developer on the planet and just need to get in line to the AS3 3rd period class? I do recommend AS3, but you're far from the last doing AS2. I just finished up a 4-month AS2 contract, and last I heard, they were still looking for contractors who know AS2. When you have an extensive app or Web site built in AS2, switching to AS3 is really tough, especially when it's a popular site and expanding rapidly. There are lots of legacy AS2 gigs out there. I would still become an AS3 expert. That's where the real action is. Plus, you can use cool tools like Flex/FlexBuilder/Flashbuilder, and AS3 is just plain better than AS2. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Thanks for that Kerry. I want to learn AS3, I really do, but it takes too much time away from making money for me that I find myself missing out. :( I wish it was easier to make the transition, but then everyone would be a AS3 developer, right. *Sigh* Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote: Karl DeSaulniers wrote: Or am I the last AS2 developer on the planet and just need to get in line to the AS3 3rd period class? I do recommend AS3, but you're far from the last doing AS2. I just finished up a 4-month AS2 contract, and last I heard, they were still looking for contractors who know AS2. When you have an extensive app or Web site built in AS2, switching to AS3 is really tough, especially when it's a popular site and expanding rapidly. There are lots of legacy AS2 gigs out there. I would still become an AS3 expert. That's where the real action is. Plus, you can use cool tools like Flex/FlexBuilder/Flashbuilder, and AS3 is just plain better than AS2. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
It actually is easier than you think. You just have to walk the plank and jump. I did, and never looked back. Nathan Mynarcik Interactive Web Developer nat...@mynarcik.com 254.749.2525 www.mynarcik.com -Original Message- From: Karl DeSaulniers k...@designdrumm.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:55:47 To: Flash Coders Listflashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? Thanks for that Kerry. I want to learn AS3, I really do, but it takes too much time away from making money for me that I find myself missing out. :( I wish it was easier to make the transition, but then everyone would be a AS3 developer, right. *Sigh* Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote: Karl DeSaulniers wrote: Or am I the last AS2 developer on the planet and just need to get in line to the AS3 3rd period class? I do recommend AS3, but you're far from the last doing AS2. I just finished up a 4-month AS2 contract, and last I heard, they were still looking for contractors who know AS2. When you have an extensive app or Web site built in AS2, switching to AS3 is really tough, especially when it's a popular site and expanding rapidly. There are lots of legacy AS2 gigs out there. I would still become an AS3 expert. That's where the real action is. Plus, you can use cool tools like Flex/FlexBuilder/Flashbuilder, and AS3 is just plain better than AS2. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Karl DeSaulniers wrote: I want to learn AS3, I really do, but it takes too much time away from making money for me that I find myself missing out. :( I wish it was easier to make the transition, but then everyone would be a AS3 developer, right. Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. COBOL used to be the dominant language for business apps. I haven't programmed in COBOL for 25 years, but I still see COBOL gigs posted. Once you get a sizable app built in a language, you have to have a compelling reason to switch to another. So, there are still COBOL programmers around, maintaining 20-year-old programs. I chose to teach myself AS3 because it's the future. I had a year of pretty low income while I was learning, and doing gigs at a reduced price to get practical experience. Fortunately, my wife earns enough that I could take that year to become proficient. Some people don't have that luxury. By the time you run out of AS2 gigs, you might be old enough to retire, or we might all be doing AS4, or some totally new environment and language. No one can predict the computer future with any accuracy, so we have to keep re-inventing ourselves every 3-5 years. In your career, you will probably need to learn at least 4 or 5 new languages--in my 30th year or programming, I'm on my 9th language. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
Thanks guys for your responses. Kerry, Too true. I've had to teach myself PHP, XML, MySQL, Javascript and I already knew HTML before I learned flash. I know there are a lot of AS2 jobs out there, but I live in a major city and major cities don't dwell in the older languages. So yeah, the scenario you were speaking of, just minus the wife. (but I digress) I really want to get into OOP and I feel like AS3 would be a better language to learn that in. I was going to learn it in AS2 just so I would know it, but that may be a good Learning AS3 project. Just don't want to bite off more than I can chew. I wish I already knew what the transitions were for the things I know how to code in AS2, but redoing all those projects in AS3 is what I have no time to do. So which of those other flash developing programs would be ok for doing AS2? Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote: Karl DeSaulniers wrote: I want to learn AS3, I really do, but it takes too much time away from making money for me that I find myself missing out. :( I wish it was easier to make the transition, but then everyone would be a AS3 developer, right. Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. COBOL used to be the dominant language for business apps. I haven't programmed in COBOL for 25 years, but I still see COBOL gigs posted. Once you get a sizable app built in a language, you have to have a compelling reason to switch to another. So, there are still COBOL programmers around, maintaining 20-year-old programs. I chose to teach myself AS3 because it's the future. I had a year of pretty low income while I was learning, and doing gigs at a reduced price to get practical experience. Fortunately, my wife earns enough that I could take that year to become proficient. Some people don't have that luxury. By the time you run out of AS2 gigs, you might be old enough to retire, or we might all be doing AS4, or some totally new environment and language. No one can predict the computer future with any accuracy, so we have to keep re-inventing ourselves every 3-5 years. In your career, you will probably need to learn at least 4 or 5 new languages--in my 30th year or programming, I'm on my 9th language. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
If you work on a PC I can highly recommend FlashDevelop. It comes with a really nice AS3 Preloader preset. Coupled with the Flex compiler you're straight into flaless Flash. Btw my opinion, I reckon you really need to take the plunge into AS3, asap. Barry. -Original Message- From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Karl DeSaulniers Sent: Wednesday, 31 March 2010 11:26 a.m. To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller? Thanks guys for your responses. Kerry, Too true. I've had to teach myself PHP, XML, MySQL, Javascript and I already knew HTML before I learned flash. I know there are a lot of AS2 jobs out there, but I live in a major city and major cities don't dwell in the older languages. So yeah, the scenario you were speaking of, just minus the wife. (but I digress) I really want to get into OOP and I feel like AS3 would be a better language to learn that in. I was going to learn it in AS2 just so I would know it, but that may be a good Learning AS3 project. Just don't want to bite off more than I can chew. I wish I already knew what the transitions were for the things I know how to code in AS2, but redoing all those projects in AS3 is what I have no time to do. So which of those other flash developing programs would be ok for doing AS2? Best, Karl On Mar 30, 2010, at 5:10 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote: Karl DeSaulniers wrote: I want to learn AS3, I really do, but it takes too much time away from making money for me that I find myself missing out. :( I wish it was easier to make the transition, but then everyone would be a AS3 developer, right. Hey, if you're doing well with AS2, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not going away for a long time. COBOL used to be the dominant language for business apps. I haven't programmed in COBOL for 25 years, but I still see COBOL gigs posted. Once you get a sizable app built in a language, you have to have a compelling reason to switch to another. So, there are still COBOL programmers around, maintaining 20-year-old programs. I chose to teach myself AS3 because it's the future. I had a year of pretty low income while I was learning, and doing gigs at a reduced price to get practical experience. Fortunately, my wife earns enough that I could take that year to become proficient. Some people don't have that luxury. By the time you run out of AS2 gigs, you might be old enough to retire, or we might all be doing AS4, or some totally new environment and language. No one can predict the computer future with any accuracy, so we have to keep re-inventing ourselves every 3-5 years. In your career, you will probably need to learn at least 4 or 5 new languages--in my 30th year or programming, I'm on my 9th language. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
the way i understand it, the controller is supposed to provide the logic and functionality for the views as well as acting as an intermediary between the view and the model (my version fires events back to the views but others use the controller to pass events back from the model to the view as well) and as such, the same controller can be used for multiple views (i have a single PageController for my basic site setup that provides the functionality for all of the pages as well as the logic about which page to show / hide) there is plenty of commentary out there to suggest that the controller is largely unnecessary and that the views can do it all as encapsulated objects (i've even read something by someone much smarter than me [ http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?MvcIsNotObjectOriented] that suggested that the c in mvc was anti-oop) but for me the benefit for the controller is that i can create functionality separate from design. if you look at the html / php / mysql model, mvc has a very natural flow - the mysql database and the php interact much like the controller (php) and the model (mysql) and the result is then fed to the views (the served html page). to be honest, for simlpe stuff, even within a large mvc project, i've found myself falling back to a model-view structure when the controller just made for extra complication and then kept the full-blown controllers for the really big stuff (my views take a mandatory model and an optional controller to allow for this). might have complicated it more with this for you but maybe i got something right best a On 29 March 2010 15:55, Karina Steffens kar...@neo-archaic.net wrote: Hi List, Ok, this may sound a bit odd coming from someone who's been coding with MVC for the last 7 years, but I seem to be missing the point of a Controller... I'm hoping to start a discussion to help me (and maybe others like me) improve my architecture by better understanding the Controller, and what good that does... First of all, here's a quick summary of my current architecture: All my projects are based on an MVC structure in their core, but my Controller class has only one function - linking the Model/s with the Views/s. The communication between Model/s and View/s happens via Broadcaster - my own AS3 reworking of the old AsBroadcaster (remember broadcastMessage? I even found a way to get and set public properties in the model using broadcastMessage(get, prop)). Typically, the model notifies the View that data was loaded, and then the View does all the donkey work, and calls a number of generic methods on the model, mostly for data retrieval. Within the View, I use EventDispatcher for the usual stuff, like button functionality. The View classes are the ones that listen to the events. For example, a View class may have a submit button, and that button's MouseEvent.CLICK goes to a clickListener method in the same class. If I understand recent list discussions correctly, it would be better to move EventDispatcher listeners to the Controller. Is that the correct approach? If so, why...? When I coded my Controller class, I built into it the ability to link Controller Classes with Broadcaster, as well as Views and Models, but so far I haven't seen a good way of implementing it, or even extending the base Controller class, because everything in my code seems to be happening either in the View or the Model layers. So where am I going wrong? Please understand that I don't mean to say that the Controller is no good other than as a way to link the View with the Model, I'm just trying to understand it better - there's always plenty of room for improvement! Thanks, Karina ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com) wrote: if you look at the html / php / mysql model, mvc has a very natural flow - the mysql database and the php interact much like the controller (php) and the model (mysql) and the result is then fed to the views (the served html page). I do not believe that the view is solely html, but a mixture of php and html. I say, the full idea is a mess. I have a more realistic (and complicated) idea of how an application should be: Have one part responsible for the overall display, with subparts related to showing individual things, such as retrieved data and GUI controls. Then add a part that manages the backend data storage. And a part that changes the data. And finally, a part that glues all the visual stuff together to act on the data changing and data retrieval. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
there is plenty of commentary out there to suggest that the controller is largely unnecessary and that the views can do it all as encapsulated objects (i've even read something by someone much smarter than me [ http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?MvcIsNotObjectOriented] that suggested that the c in mvc was anti-oop) but for me the benefit for the controller is that i can create functionality separate from design. I don't think it's really anti-OOP as much as irrelevant to OOP. The controller has nothing to do with your object domain model, it's just a mechanism to get messages from views to models or other views, and vice-versa. if you look at the html / php / mysql model, mvc has a very natural flow - the mysql database and the php interact much like the controller (php) and the model (mysql) and the result is then fed to the views (the served html page). Strictly speaking, that's not how most web application developers categorize the components of an MVC design (despite what the Wikipedia page says). PHP (or whatever application server you're using) would serve both as the controller and the views, and perhaps even the model as well. PHP itself doesn't really encourage this sort of separation (although it doesn't prevent it either), but for example, in a Java web app you might use JSP for your views, and a single servlet as a controller, and beans as your model. And of course, JSPs, servlets and beans are all just Java code. But, generally speaking, views are responsible for their own rendering, which typically requires server-side logic. If the view isn't responsible for its own rendering (which would be the case in a static HTML view, then the design pattern in question might better be described as Model-View-Presenter (MVP): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_View_Presenter Now, this doesn't take into consideration the use of client-side functionality and where that fits, but that presumably would just be additional view logic. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
:) On 29 March 2010 18:03, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: there is plenty of commentary out there to suggest that the controller is largely unnecessary and that the views can do it all as encapsulated objects (i've even read something by someone much smarter than me [ http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?MvcIsNotObjectOriented] that suggested that the c in mvc was anti-oop) but for me the benefit for the controller is that i can create functionality separate from design. I don't think it's really anti-OOP as much as irrelevant to OOP. The controller has nothing to do with your object domain model, it's just a mechanism to get messages from views to models or other views, and vice-versa. if you look at the html / php / mysql model, mvc has a very natural flow - the mysql database and the php interact much like the controller (php) and the model (mysql) and the result is then fed to the views (the served html page). Strictly speaking, that's not how most web application developers categorize the components of an MVC design (despite what the Wikipedia page says). PHP (or whatever application server you're using) would serve both as the controller and the views, and perhaps even the model as well. PHP itself doesn't really encourage this sort of separation (although it doesn't prevent it either), but for example, in a Java web app you might use JSP for your views, and a single servlet as a controller, and beans as your model. And of course, JSPs, servlets and beans are all just Java code. But, generally speaking, views are responsible for their own rendering, which typically requires server-side logic. If the view isn't responsible for its own rendering (which would be the case in a static HTML view, then the design pattern in question might better be described as Model-View-Presenter (MVP): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_View_Presenter Now, this doesn't take into consideration the use of client-side functionality and where that fits, but that presumably would just be additional view logic. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
When I've implemented MVC: * I have one controller for each view * Each view knows about it's controller, but only as a generic controller (either as an interface or a base class) * Each View registers it's controller as the event listener for each of it's buttons. * Each controller translates a generic call in itself into a specific call to the model that may or may not cause a state change. * In response to state changes, the model notifies all views. * The notification can include the state change information, OR * The view can request the state change information from the model. * The view changes updates what is presented to the user as needed based on the change in state. The reason to implement the listener in the controller is to separate the implementation of the business logic from the display logic. This makes the implementation of the specific function on the model independent of the generic function on the view. Example: an application has several views that each have a next and previous button. Each view registers the next button with its controllers next function. Each controller provides next and previous functions that invoke one or more methods on the model that may cause a state change. This provides a decoupling of the business logic from the display logic. If I want to change what is displayed, or how it is displayed, I change the view. If I want to change the response to user input, I change the controller. An example of why this is nice: I've got a clock face that I want to use as a stop watch (elapsed time) and as a timer (count-down timer). View could be identical, and just change the controller to change the functionality. Start, Stop and Reset would all have different meanings that are handled by the controller. I know that a bug in the timer code is independent of the stop watch code. In certain situations, it may be beneficial to implement a view as another instance of the MVC pattern. An example of this would be where a user is making choices in a configuration, and those choices don't get saved into the application state until the OK or Apply button is clicked. While the choices are being made, the views internal state is stored in the views model, and when OK is clicked the choices get stored into the application's model. Whether or not it's worthwhile to implement a view as another internal MVC pattern depends upon the complexity of the view vs. the added complexity of the overall system. IMHO, the choice should be to go with what makes the overall system the easiest to support. Jim ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What good is a Controller?
MVC Public Service Announcement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91C7ax0UAAc If you want to learn about MVC, pick up the Ruby on Rails book. I suggest you use RobotLegs, which uses Mediators and Commands instead of Controllers. RobotLegs is better suited for the world of Flash than MVC, which Flash blurs the lines between with MovieClip. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
