RE: [Flightgear-devel] Spitfire Hurricane manuals
Andy wrote Vivian Meazza wrote: However, eng-power should be the un-supercharged max power, so I reduced eng-power value, No no, I was wrong. Use the superchared value, the eng-power gets corrected before solving to assume max sea level manifold density (i.e. with boost and wastegate applied). Is it possible that reduction gearing reduces engine revs for a given propeller rpm? I thought it was the other way around. You are correct. The gear-ratio value is multiplied by the engine RPM to get the propeller RPM. Typical PSRUs will have a value less than 1.0. Andy OK, I'll try again, this time with the supercharged power figures. Thank goodness - they are the only good power values available! Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Building FlightGear / getting some errors
Yes, it fails with exit Error: The input line is too long. I was going to look into this a bit more but the real world is calling quite loudly at the moment. Is there anybody who has successfully built fgfs under mingw32? And does anybody know what I need to do to cull the UIUC and LARCsim files from the codebase in order to reduce the input length? Giles Robertson PS: I can't really give you much hard data until sometime later this week, unfortunately. -Original Message- From: Andy Ross [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 19 April 2004 21:07 To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Building FlightGear / getting some errors Giles Robertson wrote: Not that I've noticed. It would be useful for mingw32. I've tried building on that, and it compiles fine, but the linker fails because the input is too long ;). The linker fails with long file lists? That sounds odd -- this is the same linker used in Linux, and it's always been quite robust in my experience. Are you sure you aren't simply running out of memory or swap? The final fgfs link is definitely memory-intensive. Andy ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Spitfire Hurricane manuals
Andy Ross Vivian Meazza wrote: However, eng-power should be the un-supercharged max power, so I reduced eng-power value, No no, I was wrong. Use the superchared value, the eng-power gets corrected before solving to assume max sea level manifold density (i.e. with boost and wastegate applied). Is it possible that reduction gearing reduces engine revs for a given propeller rpm? I thought it was the other way around. You are correct. The gear-ratio value is multiplied by the engine RPM to get the propeller RPM. Typical PSRUs will have a value less than 1.0. Andy This converges (1): eng-power=1140 eng-rpm=2850 turbo-mul=2 wastegate-mp=48 cruise-alt=17500 cruise-power=1140 cruise-speed=308 cruise-rpm=5975 takeoff-power=900 takeoff-rpm=5000 manual-pitch=true gear-ratio = 0.477 As does this (2): eng-power=1140 eng-rpm=2850 turbo-mul=2 wastegate-mp=48 cruise-alt=17500 cruise-power=1140 cruise-speed=308 cruise-rpm=2850 takeoff-power=900 takeoff-rpm=2000 manual-pitch=true gear-ratio = 0.477 This does not (3): eng-power=1140 eng-rpm=2850 turbo-mul=2 wastegate-mp=48 cruise-alt=17500 cruise-power=1140 cruise-speed=308 cruise-rpm=1360 takeoff-power=900 takeoff-rpm=1200 manual-pitch=true gear-ratio = 0.477 I ran FGFS using (2). From the property browser, at throttle = 1 engine rpm = 6779. I note that 6779 * 0.477 = 3233.6 This also converges nicely (4): eng-power=1140 eng-rpm=2850 turbo-mul=2 wastegate-mp=48 cruise-alt=17500 cruise-power=1140 cruise-speed=308 cruise-rpm=2850 takeoff-power=900 takeoff-rpm=2650 manual-pitch=true gear-ratio = 1 I now ran FGFS using (4). At throttle = 1 from property browser engine rpm = 3233.8 I conclude from the foregoing that the gear ratio is being applied incorrectly by YASim. I think that the correct input data is at (3) above. Sign wrong somewhere? Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Building FlightGear / getting some errors
Ah. Thanks. I'll try that. I was hoping to try and get along with something slightly less stodgy than Cygwin, though. I was also hoping to use MSYS so that I didn't need to use Cygwin or a windows IDE to produce the makefile. I've always thought that Cygwin was a little heavy for something that should be quite simple :) Giles -Original Message- From: Norman Vine [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 19 April 2004 21:28 To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: RE: [Flightgear-devel] Building FlightGear / getting some errors Andy Ross writes: Giles Robertson wrote: Not that I've noticed. It would be useful for mingw32. I've tried building on that, and it compiles fine, but the linker fails because the input is too long ;). The linker fails with long file lists? That sounds odd -- The Windows cmd shell has a command line length limitation that I get around by using MingW from a Cygwin bash shell. Compiling from a bash shell under MSYS might work too I don't really know as I haven't used it Note when using bash under Cygwin you need to substitute the Cygwin 'make' for the MingW 'make' and you will need to configure using the appropriate --prefix argument for your system Perhaps the easiest way around this is to use the standard way of overcoming the Windows command line length limitation by redirecting the link command line to a file and then massaging that so as to have the final linking arguments to gcc be read from that file I believe that this could be done using the --dry-run flag for make but I have nevered tried this as I use a Cygwin shell as outlined above HTH Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Aircraft Walk Arounds
Lee Elliott wrote: On Monday 19 April 2004 14:52, Erik Hofman wrote: Hi, For everyone interested in photos revealing a lot of detail of various aircraft, please take a look at: http://s96920072.onlinehome.us/walk.htm For Lee Elliot, it also contains 13 sections for the A-10. Excellent source of data - just means I have to start all over again;) Hehe, you're welcome :) Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Building FlightGear / getting some errors
Hi Giles Giles Robertson writes Ah. Thanks. I'll try that. I was hoping to try and get along with something slightly less stodgy than Cygwin, though. I was also hoping to use MSYS so that I didn't need to use Cygwin or a windows IDE to produce the makefile. I've always thought that Cygwin was a little heavy for something that should be quite simple :) With ref MSYS I tried this about two weeks back but the MSYS shell does not have a USR directory which means Simgear can't find Plib.If you are interested I asked over on the MSYS list about two weeks ago. But the answers went right over my head.But from what I could gather it cant be done.But you might beable to make more sense of it. Cheers Innis Giles _ Personalise your phone with chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Building FlightGear / getting some errors
Innis Cunningham writes: Giles Robertson writes Ah. Thanks. I'll try that. I was hoping to try and get along with something slightly less stodgy than Cygwin, though. I was also hoping to use MSYS so that I didn't need to use Cygwin or a windows IDE to produce the makefile. I've always thought that Cygwin was a little heavy for something that should be quite simple :) With ref MSYS I tried this about two weeks back but the MSYS shell does not have a USR directory which means Simgear can't find Plib.If you are interested I asked over on the MSYS list about two weeks ago. But the answers went right over my head.But from what I could gather it cant be done.But you might beable to make more sense of it. You should be able to mount a /usr directory in MSYS but even if you can't you can always instal PLib to a different directory i.e use the configure --prefix argument or by using the make install prefix=XX construct HTH Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my
For the life of me, I can't get my sliced images to appear in a table without padding and borders, etc. Does anyone know if images have to be sized any particular way to get this to work, i.e. an even number of pixels or something? Jon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my
Assuming that you are talking about HTML here... Open the table with: table cellpadding=0 borders=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding is the space between adjacent cells borders is the width of the border around each cell cellspacing is the space between the border and the content of the cell You can also specify the size of each cell in the table with td height=... width=..., and this should match the size of the graphic, which should also have its size specified in the img tag. Some browsers (old Netscapes in particular) render empty cells as the background colour even if there is nothing in them, so you may need to make a 1 pixel square graphic of the appropriate colour to coax it into filling any empty cells. Richard -Original Message- From: Jon Berndt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 April 2004 1:47 pm To: Flightgear-Devel Subject: [Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my For the life of me, I can't get my sliced images to appear in a table without padding and borders, etc. Does anyone know if images have to be sized any particular way to get this to work, i.e. an even number of pixels or something? Jon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel __ __ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk __ __ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Spitfire Hurricane manuals
Vivia Meazza wrote: As does this (2): cruise-speed=308 cruise-rpm=2850 This does not (3): cruise-speed=308 cruise-rpm=1360 Again, these are *wildly* different propoellers you are specifying. The second one is going to end up with four (!) times the force coefficient. In general, multiplying any number in the configuration file by a factor of two and expecting the aircraft to perform similarly just isn't going to work. Is there another typo? What are you trying to accomplish? Andy ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Spitfire Hurricane manuals
Vivian, Are you aware of this data I once sent to the list: http://baron.flightgear.org/pipermail/flightgear-flightmodel/2003-March/002130.html Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:07:28 +0100 Richard Bytheway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Assuming that you are talking about HTML here... Open the table with: table cellpadding=0 borders=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding is the space between adjacent cells borders is the width of the border around each cell cellspacing is the space between the border and the content of the cell You can also specify the size of each cell in the table with td height=... width=..., and this should match the size of the graphic, which should also have its size specified in the img tag. Done that. One thing that helped was to set the font size used in teh table to a small number. But, still, I can't get my cut images in the cells with no borders and no padding to line up. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my
Jon S Berndt wrote: Done that. One thing that helped was to set the font size used in teh table to a small number. But, still, I can't get my cut images in the cells with no borders and no padding to line up. Browser bug? Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my
Style sheet? tried something like img name=foo src=/images/foo.jpg border=0 ? All the best, Matt. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:34:29 -0500 Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon S Berndt wrote: Done that. One thing that helped was to set the font size used in teh table to a small number. But, still, I can't get my cut images in the cells with no borders and no padding to line up. Browser bug? Curt. No, I don't think so, because the previous version worked. To be more descriptive, I am redesigning the left hand side panel at the JSBSim web site, because we have a different set of pages now in-place than before, and because all the items were not previously viewable. Each of the buttons was 18 pixels high. Now, the new buttons are 17 pixels high. I have reset the height and width attributes, and so on. But there is still a gap between images. Jon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my
Jon S Berndt wrote: No, I don't think so, because the previous version worked. To be more descriptive, I am redesigning the left hand side panel at the JSBSim web site, because we have a different set of pages now in-place than before, and because all the items were not previously viewable. Each of the buttons was 18 pixels high. Now, the new buttons are 17 pixels high. I have reset the height and width attributes, and so on. But there is still a gap between images. Jon, that sounds like the table has a height attribute which was calculated from the size of the old images, or the height is a percentage which is more than the sum of the image heights... ? All the best, Matt. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my
Some browsers get confused if you have CR/LF between elements. Although they shouldn't render white space (except between words) some do. Try putting the whole td.../td on one line in the HMTL file. Send me the table code if you want me to have a look at it. Richard -Original Message- From: Jon S Berndt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 April 2004 3:27 pm To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:07:28 +0100 Richard Bytheway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Assuming that you are talking about HTML here... Open the table with: table cellpadding=0 borders=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding is the space between adjacent cells borders is the width of the border around each cell cellspacing is the space between the border and the content of the cell You can also specify the size of each cell in the table with td height=... width=..., and this should match the size of the graphic, which should also have its size specified in the img tag. Done that. One thing that helped was to set the font size used in teh table to a small number. But, still, I can't get my cut images in the cells with no borders and no padding to line up. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] High-Quality US Airport Diagrams and Terminal Procedures
I've found very high-quality US airport diagrams available directly from NACO, much clearer than the blurry scans available elsewhere. Here's the site: http://naco.faa.gov/ap_diagrams.asp And, as an example, here's the diagram for KSFO: http://naco.faa.gov/content/naco/online/airportdiagrams/00375AD.pdf You can also get high-resolution terminal procedures (approach plates) here: http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp The visual approaches can be the most fun. For example, try the KSFO TipToe visual approach at minimal (--ceiling=2100 --visibility=8000): http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/published_pdfs/00375TIPPTOE_VIS28L.PDF All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] tables and images and borders ... oh my
Richard Bytheway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some browsers get confused if you have CR/LF between elements. Although they shouldn't render white space (except between words) some do. Try putting the whole td.../td on one line in the HMTL file. Send me the table code if you want me to have a look at it. OK, I'll take another look at it this evening. If that doesn't work, I'll send it to you. Thanks. Jon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Spitfire Hurricane manuals
Andy Ross tried again! Vivian Meazza wrote: As does this (2): cruise-speed=308 cruise-rpm=2850 This does not (3): cruise-speed=308 cruise-rpm=1360 Again, these are *wildly* different propoellers you are specifying. The second one is going to end up with four (!) times the force coefficient. In general, multiplying any number in the configuration file by a factor of two and expecting the aircraft to perform similarly just isn't going to work. Is there another typo? What are you trying to accomplish? Andy The engine I'm trying to specify developed 1140 HP at engine revolutions of 2850 rpm at a boost pressure of 9 psi. It was fitted with 1:0.477 reduction gearing, which I think means that the propeller turned at 1360 rpm. Thus, if I have understood all of the various emails correctly, leads to a specification file: eng-power=1140engine power output = 1140 HP eng-rpm=2850 @ 2850 rpm (supercharged) turbo-mul=2 Turbo multiplication factor = 2 wastegate-mp=48 Boost Control Valve = 48 in Hg absolute cruise-alt=17500 Cruise altitude = 17500 ft cruise-speed=308 cruise speed at cruise altitude = 308 kts cruise-power=1140 Power absorbed by propeller at cruise = 1140 HP cruise-rpm=1360 Propeller cruise rpm 2850 * 0.477 = 1360 rpm takeoff-power=900 take off numbers takeoff-rpm=1200 manual-pitch=true gear-ratio = 0.477reduction gear of 1:0.477 I'm reasonably confident that the numbers are in accordance with the published data for the engine. This results in a YASIM output; Iterations: 1 Drag Coefficient: 1000.00 Lift Ratio: 1.00 Cruise AoA: 0.00 Tail Incidence: -0.0 Approach Elevator: 0.00 CG: -2.528, 0.000, -0.270 FGFS locks up attempting to run with these settings, not unexpectedly. I made an alternative assumption as an experiment: that cruise-rpm was the engine rpm at cruise - 2850. They are also about the lowest values for which YASim converges. With these settings, YASim converges with these results: Iterations: 2320 Drag Coefficient: 6.279826 Lift Ratio: 360.380524 Cruise AoA: 0.770977 Tail Incidence: -0.8144328 Approach Elevator: 0.939014 CG: -2.523, 0.000, -0.276 FGFS runs with this input, but when throttle = 1 engine rpm = 6928, which is as expected for a propeller rpm of 2850 and a gear ratio of 0.477. I had hoped to see the engine rpm stay constant, and the propeller rpm to drop, but, as I say, I was just experimenting. Apart from the engine rpm the model performs well with these settings. I think we have to assume that either the published engine parameters are outside YASim's calculations in some way, or that I still have some fundamental misunderstanding of what goes where in the file. Sorry to be a nuisance with all these queries, and thank you for your patience and help. Regards Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] High-Quality US Airport Diagrams and Terminal Procedures
Also: http://www.airnav.com/ Finding data regarding airports in the US isn't hard. Finding data regarding airports in places other than US is the hard part. One site I've found is: http://www.jetphotos.net/ This website has faa diagrams on various non-US airports, but it doesn't have much details regarding radio frequencies. This particular one is the frequencies for Pearson International Airport in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. May be someone will find it useful: http://www.ghu.ca/Docs/freq.txt Regards, Ampere On April 20, 2004 10:59 am, David Megginson wrote: I've found very high-quality US airport diagrams available directly from NACO, much clearer than the blurry scans available elsewhere. Here's the site: http://naco.faa.gov/ap_diagrams.asp And, as an example, here's the diagram for KSFO: http://naco.faa.gov/content/naco/online/airportdiagrams/00375AD.pdf You can also get high-resolution terminal procedures (approach plates) here: http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp The visual approaches can be the most fun. For example, try the KSFO TipToe visual approach at minimal (--ceiling=2100 --visibility=8000): http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/published_pdfs/00375TIPPTOE_VIS28L.PDF All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] High-Quality US Airport Diagrams and Terminal Procedures
Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: This website has faa diagrams on various non-US airports, but it doesn't have much details regarding radio frequencies. The DAFIF has frequencies for all the airports it covers (454 in Canada). It also has world-wide airway data, segment by segment, including minimum altitudes. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] High-Quality US Airport Diagrams and Terminal Procedures
What is DAFIF? Regards, Ampere On April 20, 2004 08:00 pm, David Megginson wrote: Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: This website has faa diagrams on various non-US airports, but it doesn't have much details regarding radio frequencies. The DAFIF has frequencies for all the airports it covers (454 in Canada). It also has world-wide airway data, segment by segment, including minimum altitudes. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Spitfire Propeller vs. YASim
[Starting a new thread. The reply nesting level in my mozilla window was getting freaky.] Vivian Meazza wrote: The engine I'm trying to specify developed 1140 HP at engine revolutions of 2850 rpm at a boost pressure of 9 psi. It was fitted with 1:0.477 reduction gearing, which I think means that the propeller turned at 1360 rpm. Hrm, 1360 RPM is very slow for a cruise value, just over idle speed for a smaller plane. Likewise, 2850 RPM really isn't that fast for a piston engine. It's at the top end of ungeared engines like a Lycoming O-360 or whatnot, but not really very fast for four stroke engines as a whole (my Saturn redlines at 6000, for example). Is it possible that the 2850 number is a *propeller* RPM at max power? Then you'd get a max power engine speed of 5975, which seems plausible to me and avoids the problems with solving for a propeller which cruises at a pitch where normal props would be windmilling. Does anyone have good info on whether the cockpit engine speed gauge in a Spitfire (which is presumably what most sources will quote for RPM) reads engine or propeller speed? Andy ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
