Re: [Flightgear-devel] bo105 + patch
Alex Romosan wrote: [...] i use the keyboard mappings and a mouse to fly and i noticed that the collective is mapped backwards (up goes down and down goes up). which very much resembles the controls of a real heli ! A helicopter has sort of a parking brake handle to control the collective: Pulling the handle increases the collective angle of attack. I after updating from CVS I realized that the collective controls via the keyboard interface have changed and I must admit that I'm pretty much disappointed, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:57:24 +0200, Melchior wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. ..heh, precicely this is done by many R/C heli pilots. ;-) R/C pilots use to have a long standing culture discussing how to to do it 'right' :-) To my knowledge there are mostly two parties: Those who know at least a little bit how things work on a real helicopter and thos who don't. You even can convince some of the second group to try a change by letting them sit im a real heli Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Newbee
Al West said: There are plenty of friendly folks hanging out on IRC always ready to help, That's best after you've got some experience. I used to have to advise certain people to stay away from certain #unix/#linux irc channels. Back in the early/mid 90's when home internet was just making it to parts of Maine I had this guy from one of the fledgling ISPs call me and tell me that he typed cd /;rm -rf * on his mail server after asking how to solve some minor problem on IRC. I guess that did get rid of the problem. Looking recommended commands up in the manual (e.g. typing man rm) before using them is a very good idea. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
* Martin Spott -- Monday 09 August 2004 14:37: Alex Romosan wrote: [...] i use the keyboard mappings and a mouse to fly and i noticed that the collective is mapped backwards (up goes down and down goes up). which very much resembles the controls of a real heli ! A helicopter has sort of a parking brake handle to control the collective: Pulling the handle increases the collective angle of attack. I after updating from CVS I realized that the collective controls via the keyboard interface have changed and I must admit that I'm pretty much disappointed, Hmmm ... so was Erik. That makes 2:1 for the old (reversed) behavior. Any other votes? Personally, I do only insist on correct js behavior -- I don't care much about the keyboard behavior. I'll happily switch back. (All other helicopters should then be consistent with that.) m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
Martin Spott said: Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:57:24 +0200, Melchior wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. ..heh, precicely this is done by many R/C heli pilots. ;-) R/C pilots use to have a long standing culture discussing how to to do it 'right' :-) To my knowledge there are mostly two parties: Those who know at least a little bit how things work on a real helicopter and thos who don't. You even can convince some of the second group to try a change by letting them sit im a real heli Mostly, but how about a third party that knows what a collective lever looks like, realizes that the joystick looks nothing remotely like one and thinks that binding the keyboard one way and the joystick the other way is not a good idea. My preference would probably be Alex's original patch. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] bo105 + patch
On Monday 09 August 2004 14:37, Martin Spott wrote: Alex Romosan wrote: [...] i use the keyboard mappings and a mouse to fly and i noticed that the collective is mapped backwards (up goes down and down goes up). which very much resembles the controls of a real heli ! How? If pulling the collective up makes the heli go up, then I would expect the keyboard to behave in the same way: press up/pageup to go up. (If he meant mouse up, then I might agree) A helicopter has sort of a parking brake handle to control the collective: Pulling the handle increases the collective angle of attack. I after updating from CVS I realized that the collective controls via the keyboard interface have changed and I must admit that I'm pretty much disappointed, Martin. -- best regards, Gunnstein Lye Systems engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] | eZ systems | ez.no ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
On Monday 09 August 2004 15:22, Jim Wilson wrote: Martin Spott said: Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:57:24 +0200, Melchior wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. ..heh, precicely this is done by many R/C heli pilots. ;-) R/C pilots use to have a long standing culture discussing how to to do it 'right' :-) To my knowledge there are mostly two parties: Those who know at least a little bit how things work on a real helicopter and thos who don't. You even can convince some of the second group to try a change by letting them sit im a real heli Mostly, but how about a third party that knows what a collective lever looks like, realizes that the joystick looks nothing remotely like one and thinks that binding the keyboard one way and the joystick the other way is not a good idea. My preference would probably be Alex's original patch. Buy a second joystick, and mount it horizontally next to your chair. It should make a decent collective, and would double as a hand brake for rally sims =) Seriously though, it seems the problem here is that most, but not all, find it logical to map the up/down behaviour of a collective to the backward/forward motion of a joystick (or joystick throttle). There is no right or wrong here, as there is no logical way to translate Y-axis movement to the Z-axis. Solution: make the default whatever most people agree on, but make it easy to invert, as in X-Plane where you have an invert button next to each joystick axis. -- best regards, Gunnstein Lye Systems engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] | eZ systems | ez.no ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:49:37 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:57:24 +0200, Melchior wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. ..heh, precicely this is done by many R/C heli pilots. ;-) R/C pilots use to have a long standing culture discussing how to to do it 'right' :-) To my knowledge there are mostly two parties: Those who know at least a little bit how things work on a real helicopter and thos who don't. You even can convince some of the second group to try a change by letting them sit im a real heli ...like we didn't have enough wars already. ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
Jim Wilson wrote: My preference would probably be Alex's original patch. _My_ preference would be to put as default what the BO-maintainer prefers as his _personal_ choice and add an optional property, reverting the default behaviour, that every user can put into his ~/.fgfsrc When we've got this done we can start a second discussion on how the hud should behave like :-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] bo105 + patch
Gunnstein Lye wrote: How? If pulling the collective up makes the heli go up, then I would expect the keyboard to behave in the same way: press up/pageup to go up. (If he meant mouse up, then I might agree) When you control the collective pitch of a heli flight sim you usually don't look on what's written on the keys - at least _I_ don't ;-)) To my sense the two keys substitute a little stick that has a flexible mounting between them. When you pull the stick, the PgDown key gets pressed down by the stick due to the flexible mounting. Then you could adapt the action of pulling the lever from the real heli, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
* Gunnstein Lye -- Monday 09 August 2004 16:35: Seriously though, it seems the problem here is that most, but not all, find it logical to map the up/down behaviour of a collective to the backward/forward motion of a joystick (or joystick throttle). There is no right or wrong here, as there is no logical way to translate Y-axis movement to the Z-axis. Yes, there is: pull - raise, push - sink. It doesn't matter how the joystick is mounted. This is the right and realistic way. The other may be consistent with fixed wing and newbie friendly, but fgfs' goal is realism. It's not a game, but a simulator after all. I'm tending more and more to revert today's patch. Solution: make the default whatever most people agree on, but make it easy to invert, as in X-Plane where you have an invert button next to each joystick axis. That was my first solution, but the patch was rejected (please not yet another property). I inverted the collective axis in the YASim config then. m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
* Martin Spott -- Monday 09 August 2004 17:07: _My_ preference would be to put as default what the BO-maintainer prefers as his _personal_ My preference would be that this is consistent with all future helicopters, so it wouldn't really my choice alone. But our main goal is and should be realism (i.e. inverted throttle for the collective). auto-coordination is also more user friendly than a separate rudder, but nobody would argue that auto-coordination should be the default. So far we have only one user who disagrees with realistic collective, so we might not even need a property. Just revert part of today's patch. :-) m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FMC
Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: I think newer Airbus aircrafts have CDU's that have a more advanced GUI. http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRHeft04/FRH0401/FR0401c1.JPG Most current images seem really to be mainly computer created, but check out: http://www.airbus.com/MultimediaElements/139.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/b/ba/A380.flightdeck.750pix.jpg What's interesting though, is the integrated Chart-Database with LCD screens on either side of the cockpit ! Unfortunately, there were not any images of the A380's MCDU - but I did read that it's supposed to be controlled by a simple stick/mouse replacement ... I wonder, how easy this will be to be done in-flight, though :-/ But a multi-color display (well, at least tri-color) would certainly be a good idea for the CDUs of the future. I was talking about having a libary-like interface that can allow the user to implement basic and advanced animations really easily. Okay, I think we agree here - Harald suggested already a basic framework for it, so it might make sense for those instrument designers to also make some suggestions about what exactly might be needed in such a library. P.S.: Harald, you might want to check this page, too: http://users.pandora.be/B737/serv03.htm - Boris ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo104 - patch
Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So far we have only one user who disagrees with realistic collective, so we might not even need a property. Just revert part of today's patch. :-) i am not the only one who disagrees with the realistic collective (but you can choose to ignore any messages you don't agree with). but to tell you the truth, i don't really care. i know enough to configure fgfs to do what _i_ want. one could argue that flying a helicopter using the keyboard is not realistic. nevertheless, i find it very confusing pressing PageUp to go down, and vice versa. also, i always use the HUD and to see the throttle indicator go down when i want to go up is one more source of confusion. sorry to have brought this up. --alex-- -- | I believe the moment is at hand when, by a paranoiac and active | | advance of the mind, it will be possible (simultaneously with | | automatism and other passive states) to systematize confusion | | and thus to help to discredit completely the world of reality. | ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FMC
Boris Koenig wrote: Most current images seem really to be mainly computer created, but check out: http://www.airbus.com/MultimediaElements/139.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/b/ba/A380.flightdeck.750pix.jpg What's interesting though, is the integrated Chart-Database with LCD screens on either side of the cockpit ! I think this is just the weather radar. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FMC
Erik Hofman wrote: Boris Koenig wrote: Most current images seem really to be mainly computer created, but check out: http://www.airbus.com/MultimediaElements/139.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/b/ba/A380.flightdeck.750pix.jpg What's interesting though, is the integrated Chart-Database with LCD screens on either side of the cockpit ! I think this is just the weather radar. I'm afraid you're wrong (I was referring to the latter image) - this seems actually like an airbus version of Jeppensen's electronic FlightBag - simply not relying on an external notebook anymore, but rather connected to the systems of the aircraft. Check airbus.com for it: it's supposed to enable the flight deck crew to easily display/use charts without the need to look them up in the big paper thing - which will still be available as a backup, though. Also, it's supposed to display a profile view (layered) ON the charts to improve situation awareness. Boris ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FMC
Boris Koenig wrote: I'm afraid you're wrong (I was referring to the latter image) - this seems actually like an airbus version of Jeppensen's electronic FlightBag - simply not relying on an external notebook anymore, but rather connected to the systems of the aircraft. Hmm, it's hard to see, but you could be right. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 - patch
I don't like the way this discussion goes by now. Because I'll finish the second fgfs heli soon, I want to show my point of view in this matter may to finish this argument soon, too...;-) If you choose an input modality which is closer to the reality - eg. using stick, pedals and a 'park-break-style' pitch lever - you are totally bound to its operational manner. Thus the pitch lever should be pulled towards your body to lift...this is the understanding of the heli controls of Melchior and others (body related movements). In contrast you can just only use the keyboard and have the freedom to map controls on keys 'til the doctor's coming. You can look on the keys and map controls due to key's meaning. But you are also able to map it in 'body-related-style'... Between these two extrema everybody have to choose his way of controlling a heli. For the ec130 I'll use the same mapping as Melchior for the bo105, but feel free to change it locally. Let's bury the hatchet and fly together! Regards Ron Alex Romosan schrieb: Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So far we have only one user who disagrees with realistic collective, so we might not even need a property. Just revert part of today's patch. :-) i am not the only one who disagrees with the realistic collective (but you can choose to ignore any messages you don't agree with). but to tell you the truth, i don't really care. i know enough to configure fgfs to do what _i_ want. one could argue that flying a helicopter using the keyboard is not realistic. nevertheless, i find it very confusing pressing PageUp to go down, and vice versa. also, i always use the HUD and to see the throttle indicator go down when i want to go up is one more source of confusion. sorry to have brought this up. --alex-- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FMC
Suggestions, suggestions... if the graphic interface can display most of the static things that can be displayed by a web browser (buttons, fonts, images, tables, etc), then I think we pretty much covered everything. As for animations, the interface should be capable of doing what we can do with XML now. One thing that you may want to give more thoughts on is the methods for rendering the animations in the users' prespective. This may very well be different from the actual implementation, but it will give you an idea as to how to make the life of the users easier. Here is an example: For the user, things are rendered onto an abstract container first before they are displayed on an actual object in the scene. The container acts like a piece of paper with a rectangle cut out: you may have something very big, but the containers will only show what is in the rectangle. In addition, each container can contain other containers, and the user can define the position and orientation of these containers relative to their parent container. This way, the user can combine many relatively simple animations into one complex animation. Regards, Ampere On August 9, 2004 12:14 pm, Boris Koenig wrote: I was talking about having a libary-like interface that can allow the user to implement basic and advanced animations really easily. Okay, I think we agree here - Harald suggested already a basic framework for it, so it might make sense for those instrument designers to also make some suggestions about what exactly might be needed in such a library. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Newbee
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:01:02 - Jim Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are plenty of friendly folks hanging out on IRC always ready to help, That's best after you've got some experience. I used to have to advise certain people to stay away from certain #unix/#linux irc channels. Back in the early/mid 90's when home internet was just making it to parts of Maine I had this guy from one of the fledgling ISPs call me and tell me that he typed cd /;rm -rf * on his mail server after asking how to solve some minor problem on IRC. I guess that did get rid of the problem. Looking recommended commands up in the manual (e.g. typing man rm) before using them is a very good idea. I second this. I love love love Debian, but I'd never recommend a new user to go to #debian on FreeNode, the semi-official IRC channel. There are too many people there who take ESR's indignation with people who won't put in effort to solve problems themselves a little *too* seriously, and thus treat those who ask simple questions like war criminals. I exaggerate very little. It would be so easy to direct the newbie who doesn't seem to have put any effort in him/herself yet to something like ESR's How to Ask Questions the Smart Way, rather than say stuff like sorry, I can't understand idiot-speak, you'll have to try again after growing more brain cells or something like that. There's nothing to be gained from that crap; but there are people whose entire identity seems wrapped up in behaving so. -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove snip-me. to email) As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpg31Qtp2JGh.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Newbee
Hello, Thanks all of you for your help. First of all, I'll try to focus on OpenGL and running FlightGear. :-) Later, go deeply into C++ and Linux. Step by step. David Lavernia ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
