[Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
On the main flightgear page there is a screen shot of our rendition of the original 1903 Wright Flyer: http://www.flightgear.org/images/flyer.jpg I just ran across the following image of the real thing: http://www.first-to-fly.com/History%20Images/1903_Flyer_in_SI.GIF After careful study, I can spot a few minor differences, but the longer I look, the more I am impressed at how closely they match! I think it was Jim Wilson who did the 3d model and the UIUC folks that did the flight model. Good job to all. :-) Curt. -- Curtis Olson HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Citiescurt 'at' me.umn.edu curt 'at' flightgear.org Minnesota http://www.flightgear.org/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On the main flightgear page there is a screen shot of our rendition of the original 1903 Wright Flyer: http://www.flightgear.org/images/flyer.jpg I just ran across the following image of the real thing: http://www.first-to-fly.com/History%20Images/1903_Flyer_in_SI.GIF After careful study, I can spot a few minor differences, but the longer I look, the more I am impressed at how closely they match! Thanks! Coincidently, earlier today I was actually thinking about revisiting the model to fix a couple things...learned a few tricks in the last year. Originally I started with an msfs model that was donated, but ended up replacing everything except maybe Orville's face texture. Fortunately there is a museum nearby that had a full scale model on display... http://web.archive.org/web/2523102513/www.ohtm.org/harness.html ..so I headed down with camera and took lots of photos. The most noticable things that aren't quite right are the wing and elevator surfaces. The wings are the wrong shape chordwise and the edges are a little odd. It'd be nice to do a little better with the wing warping too. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
Thanks! Coincidently, earlier today I was actually thinking about revisiting the model to fix a couple things...learned a few tricks in the last year. Originally I started with an msfs model that was donated, but ended up replacing everything except maybe Orville's face texture. You need to give him an expression of sheer terror ... ;-) ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer progress
At 11/9/02, you wrote: Progress has been slow, mostly because of real work getting in the way, but the Wright Flyer is getting much closer to completion. Most of the detail and animation is done. Here's a shot from the front with the elevator mechanism tilted up for initial ascent.: http://www.spiderbark.com/fgfs/wrightflyer-starting.png From the earlier discussion and pictures available I took a guess on the wing warping. For now the animation is pretty crude (only three positions), but better than nothing. This is a shot from behind showing the wings warped for a roll toward the left: http://www.spiderbark.com/fgfs/wrightflyer-warp.png This is the startup line I'm using. The location and heading is based on a best guess from various accounts. Pictures of the Wright National Monument and a scan of a guide brochure from the Park helped a lot in at least matching reasonably close to the best guess that was arrived at in 1928 by a contingent of witnesses to the original event: fgfs --aircraft=wrightFlyer1903-v1-nl-uiuc --lat=36.020247 --lon=-75.669041 --heading=5 --disable-random-objects --enable-auto-coordination I have included the flag --enable-auto-coordination inside the -set.xml file and committed that to the cvs, so it's not needed on the command line anymore. Regards, Michael Crazy details left on my todo list: - Adding control cables/chains and blocks for all the control surfaces. - Animating Orville's hips and the cradle. - As soon as I figure out the exact shape, adding the foot stop that kept Orville from sliding off the back of the wing at startup. - As soon as I get some more information (a good picture or diagram), modeling the instrument cluster that was mounted just to the right of Orville's right arm. - Correct the elevator animation once information on its actual range is learned (anyone know this?) - Modeling the rail. - Modeling the rear skid (this is tricky because it gets dropped and left behind when the aircraft becomes airborn). I'm really not up to speed on scenery modeling, but if someone wants to it'd be great to have a tiny bit of territory covering just Kill Devil Hills, NC and the Outer Banks, that was simply covered with a nice beach sand texture as it was back in 1903. Another idea: if we had that little chunk of sandy scenery we might want to put together a special release (that included a binary and a tiny subset of the base package) for school teachers and whoever else to download during the centennial year. Might be kind of cool to release it next month on December 17th, the 99th aniversary of the first flight. Sounds like a potential promotional thing for the FlightGear project too, I'd think. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ** Prof. Michael S. Selig Dept. of Aero/Astro Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 306 Talbot Laboratory 104 South Wright Street Urbana, IL 61801-2935 (217) 244-5757 (o), (509) 691-1373 (fax) mailto:m-selig;uiuc.edu http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/faq.html (FAQ) ** ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer progress
It's looking good! (I look forward to flying or crashing it as the case may be). Chris On Sat, 2002-11-09 at 01:41, Jim Wilson wrote: Progress has been slow, mostly because of real work getting in the way, but the Wright Flyer is getting much closer to completion. Most of the detail and animation is done. Here's a shot from the front with the elevator mechanism tilted up for initial ascent.: http://www.spiderbark.com/fgfs/wrightflyer-starting.png From the earlier discussion and pictures available I took a guess on the wing warping. For now the animation is pretty crude (only three positions), but better than nothing. This is a shot from behind showing the wings warped for a roll toward the left: http://www.spiderbark.com/fgfs/wrightflyer-warp.png This is the startup line I'm using. The location and heading is based on a best guess from various accounts. Pictures of the Wright National Monument and a scan of a guide brochure from the Park helped a lot in at least matching reasonably close to the best guess that was arrived at in 1928 by a contingent of witnesses to the original event: fgfs --aircraft=wrightFlyer1903-v1-nl-uiuc --lat=36.020247 --lon=-75.669041 --heading=5 --disable-random-objects --enable-auto-coordination Crazy details left on my todo list: - Adding control cables/chains and blocks for all the control surfaces. - Animating Orville's hips and the cradle. - As soon as I figure out the exact shape, adding the foot stop that kept Orville from sliding off the back of the wing at startup. - As soon as I get some more information (a good picture or diagram), modeling the instrument cluster that was mounted just to the right of Orville's right arm. - Correct the elevator animation once information on its actual range is learned (anyone know this?) - Modeling the rail. - Modeling the rear skid (this is tricky because it gets dropped and left behind when the aircraft becomes airborn). I'm really not up to speed on scenery modeling, but if someone wants to it'd be great to have a tiny bit of territory covering just Kill Devil Hills, NC and the Outer Banks, that was simply covered with a nice beach sand texture as it was back in 1903. Another idea: if we had that little chunk of sandy scenery we might want to put together a special release (that included a binary and a tiny subset of the base package) for school teachers and whoever else to download during the centennial year. Might be kind of cool to release it next month on December 17th, the 99th aniversary of the first flight. Sounds like a potential promotional thing for the FlightGear project too, I'd think. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer progress
It's looking really good! On the aero side, I have few tweaks that I want to make before it's announced in whatever fashion. It should not take me too much longer to get to that. As for the elevator animation, I have use +-20 deg deflection on my model, but from pictures it looks like more elevator throw was possible. The update will include the wide elevator range w/ particulars to be determined. Regards, Michael At 11/9/02, Jim Wilson wrote: Progress has been slow, mostly because of real work getting in the way, but the Wright Flyer is getting much closer to completion. Most of the detail and animation is done. Here's a shot from the front with the elevator mechanism tilted up for initial ascent.: http://www.spiderbark.com/fgfs/wrightflyer-starting.png From the earlier discussion and pictures available I took a guess on the wing warping. For now the animation is pretty crude (only three positions), but better than nothing. This is a shot from behind showing the wings warped for a roll toward the left: http://www.spiderbark.com/fgfs/wrightflyer-warp.png This is the startup line I'm using. The location and heading is based on a best guess from various accounts. Pictures of the Wright National Monument and a scan of a guide brochure from the Park helped a lot in at least matching reasonably close to the best guess that was arrived at in 1928 by a contingent of witnesses to the original event: fgfs --aircraft=wrightFlyer1903-v1-nl-uiuc --lat=36.020247 --lon=-75.669041 --heading=5 --disable-random-objects --enable-auto-coordination Crazy details left on my todo list: - Adding control cables/chains and blocks for all the control surfaces. - Animating Orville's hips and the cradle. - As soon as I figure out the exact shape, adding the foot stop that kept Orville from sliding off the back of the wing at startup. - As soon as I get some more information (a good picture or diagram), modeling the instrument cluster that was mounted just to the right of Orville's right arm. - Correct the elevator animation once information on its actual range is learned (anyone know this?) - Modeling the rail. - Modeling the rear skid (this is tricky because it gets dropped and left behind when the aircraft becomes airborn). I'm really not up to speed on scenery modeling, but if someone wants to it'd be great to have a tiny bit of territory covering just Kill Devil Hills, NC and the Outer Banks, that was simply covered with a nice beach sand texture as it was back in 1903. Another idea: if we had that little chunk of sandy scenery we might want to put together a special release (that included a binary and a tiny subset of the base package) for school teachers and whoever else to download during the centennial year. Might be kind of cool to release it next month on December 17th, the 99th aniversary of the first flight. Sounds like a potential promotional thing for the FlightGear project too, I'd think. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ** Prof. Michael S. Selig Dept. of Aero/Astro Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 306 Talbot Laboratory 104 South Wright Street Urbana, IL 61801-2935 (217) 244-5757 (o), (509) 691-1373 (fax) mailto:m-selig;uiuc.edu http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/faq.html (FAQ) ** ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
Jim Wilson writes: I was actualyl joking, but now you come to mention it, it probably would have been quite handy for them keeping the wing level :-) I know, so was I ;-) They did have some instrumentation though. Here's an annotation from Orville's book: Just for the record, a spirit level wouldn't tell you whether the wings were level; it would only tell you whether you were slipping or skidding. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer wing warping
Very interesting, but from the photos there seems to be much more movement than that. Are you sure you are scaled correctly? Also remember that Orville claims the leading edges stayed parallel (although I suppose at 0.8mm it'd be hard to tell). Best, Jim Marcel Wittebrood [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Sorry, I made a mistake, =20 I contour plotted the beam bending moment in the last mail and wrote = some nonsense to talk the large deflection value straight.:-)) =20 This picture is probably correct=20 =20 Only 6.011 mm at the back spar tip, 0.8 mm at the front spar tip. So for = 80 N force input you get about atan((6.011-0.8) /1180) =3D 0.25 deg (The = aerodynamic forces are working against this value, so the real warping = is less !!). =20 The 40 N force input translates to about 300 N at the hip saddle if I am = correct (There are 4 wings) =20 kind regards, =20 =20 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer wing warping
Dear Jim, you state that "With the 1903 they trussed it all up so that only the trailing edges warped, making it even more aileron like." We also have the smithsonian museum drawings from the 1903 flyer. The inboard wing is trussed up but the outboard wing does not have any truss cables and is thus free to warp when the pilot is moving his hip saddle. Because there is no torsional stiffness, the tip of the outboard wing is fully rotated. kind regards, Marcel Wittebrood ADSE _ ADSE Consultancy and Engineering B.V. Tel. +31 (0) 23 554 2255 Fax +31 (0) 23 557 1069 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website http://www.adse.nl P.O.Box 3083 2130 KB Hoofddorp Saturnusstraat 12 2132 HB Hoofddorp The Netherlands
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer wing warping
Marcel Wittebrood [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Dear Jim, you state that With the 1903 they trussed it all up so that only the trailing edges warped, making it even more aileron like. We also have the smithsonian museum drawings from the 1903 flyer. The inboard wing is trussed up but the outboard wing does not have any truss cables and is thus free to warp when the pilot is moving his hip saddle. Because there is no torsional stiffness, the tip of the outboard wing is fully rotated. Yes, what you are saying about the trussing is true. The intention was to create a stiff platform for the engine. But Orville states that the entire leading edge of the upper and lower planes (wings) remained parallel due to the way the control wire was configured (and probably the rigidity of the leading edge framing). One of the things that I have trouble with is visualizing the warping movement on this particular machine. There aren't many photographs of it and I haven't seen anything that illustrates the degree to which it warps and the shape of the fully warped wing. The rear lateral wing member must have some effect as well so that the warping isn't uniform across the area that moves. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
Jim Wilson writes: Thanks. It's getting there. I'm still trying to figure out from Orville's description how the elevator mecahnism works (for animation). Might need to go down to Owl's head again to take a another look at their replica. Still thinking about wing warping... (hints to the animation code guru :-)) You will need to make two versions of the wings, one fully warped in each direction, with exactly the same number of vertices in exactly the same order. Given that, it will be trivially to add support in FlightGear for the SSG tween animation. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
Hehe, if you start out with a fairly stable approach and are pretty close already, the autopilot seems to hold the Wright Flyer right on the glide slope. ATC was complaining a bit about my 33 kt. (full throttle) approach speed though ... Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hehe, if you start out with a fairly stable approach and are pretty close already, the autopilot seems to hold the Wright Flyer right on the glide slope. ATC was complaining a bit about my 33 kt. (full throttle) approach speed though ... Hmmm...maybe we should do a full glass cockpit with GPS? Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
On Thursday 17 October 2002 10:34 am, Jim Wilson wrote: Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hehe, if you start out with a fairly stable approach and are pretty close already, the autopilot seems to hold the Wright Flyer right on the glide slope. ATC was complaining a bit about my 33 kt. (full throttle) approach speed though ... Hmmm...maybe we should do a full glass cockpit with GPS? Best, Jim Hahah, a GC for that would be an hour glass ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, John Check wrote: Hahah, a GC for that would be an hour glass and a spirit level. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
On Thursday 17 October 2002 2:43 pm, Jon Stockill wrote: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, John Check wrote: Hahah, a GC for that would be an hour glass and a spirit level. Thanks, I knew there had to be another peice. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, John Check wrote: Hahah, a GC for that would be an hour glass and a spirit level. Hmmm... I did a google on spirit level wright flyer and nothing came up. Any idea what it looks like? Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Jim Wilson wrote: Hmmm... I did a google on spirit level wright flyer and nothing came up. Any idea what it looks like? I was actualyl joking, but now you come to mention it, it probably would have been quite handy for them keeping the wing level :-) -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
John Check [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thursday 17 October 2002 10:34 am, Jim Wilson wrote: Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hehe, if you start out with a fairly stable approach and are pretty close already, the autopilot seems to hold the Wright Flyer right on the glide slope. ATC was complaining a bit about my 33 kt. (full throttle) approach speed though ... Hmmm...maybe we should do a full glass cockpit with GPS? Hahah, a GC for that would be an hour glass Now come on John, it wasn't THAT long ago! Besides, an hour glass would never work on that thing. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
On Thursday 17 October 2002 3:46 pm, Jim Wilson wrote: John Check [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thursday 17 October 2002 10:34 am, Jim Wilson wrote: Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hehe, if you start out with a fairly stable approach and are pretty close already, the autopilot seems to hold the Wright Flyer right on the glide slope. ATC was complaining a bit about my 33 kt. (full throttle) approach speed though ... Hmmm...maybe we should do a full glass cockpit with GPS? Hahah, a GC for that would be an hour glass Now come on John, it wasn't THAT long ago! Besides, an hour glass would never work on that thing. Best, Jim You're right, let's go analog. Sundial and a plumb bob ;D ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
Jim Wilson writes: Hmmm... I did a google on spirit level wright flyer and nothing came up. Any idea what it looks like? Probably like one oops two of these one aligned with the wing and one aligned with the body http://www.stanleylondon.com/inclinometer.htm Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
On Thursday 17 October 2002 3:50 pm, Jim Wilson wrote: Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, John Check wrote: Hahah, a GC for that would be an hour glass and a spirit level. Hmmm... I did a google on spirit level wright flyer and nothing came up. Any idea what it looks like? Best, Jim Just your regular run of the mill glass tube filled with mineral spirits and an air bubble. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
The UIUC folks did a very good job on the flight dynamics. My gut feeling is that this is probably very close in terms of performance to the original. Yep, you have no chance to gain terrain with '--random-wind' enabled ;-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:31:08 +0100 (BST), Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Jim Wilson wrote: Hmmm... I did a google on spirit level wright flyer and nothing came up. Any idea what it looks like? I was actualyl joking, but now you come to mention it, it probably would have been quite handy for them keeping the wing level :-) ..reminds me of a neighbor, who _knew_ he was _drunk_, so, to get home, he bought himself a level. It worked. ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, John Check wrote: You're right, let's go analog. Sundial and a plumb bob ;D I think you'd have problems setting your sundial from the sun compass, or the sun compass from the sundial, or oh dear I'd suggest damping the plumb bob too - a large water tank should do. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
Jon Stockill wrote: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Jim Wilson wrote: Hmmm... I did a google on spirit level wright flyer and nothing came up. Any idea what it looks like? A glass of brandy? I was actualyl joking, but now you come to mention it, it probably would have been quite handy for them keeping the wing level :-) Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
Martin Spott writes: The UIUC folks did a very good job on the flight dynamics. My gut feeling is that this is probably very close in terms of performance to the original. Yep, you have no chance to gain terrain with '--random-wind' enabled ;-) I'll grant that crosswind landings are a challenge without a rudder. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
Norman Vine [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Jim Wilson writes: Hmmm... I did a google on spirit level wright flyer and nothing came up. Any idea what it looks like? Probably like one oops two of these one aligned with the wing and one aligned with the body http://www.stanleylondon.com/inclinometer.htm Err...umm...body? You mean the pilot? Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright Flyer
Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Jim Wilson wrote: Hmmm... I did a google on spirit level wright flyer and nothing came up. Any idea what it looks like? I was actualyl joking, but now you come to mention it, it probably would have been quite handy for them keeping the wing level :-) I know, so was I ;-) They did have some instrumentation though. Here's an annotation from Orville's book: Devices for obtaining records of the time, the distance through the air, and the engine speed were arrainged almost as ingeniously as the machine itself. An anemometer, a revolution counter, and a stop watch, all of which started and stopped simultaneously, were installed on the machine. Apparently they had some trouble with the stop watch, which would qualify as the first instance of flight instrumentation failure. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
Jim, Your Wright flyer model is really starting to look sharp! Good work. :-) People need to check this out if they haven't already: fgfs --aircraft=wrightFlyer1903-v1-nl-uiuc You definitely need to stay on your toes (so to speak) to keep this thing in the air. The lack of lateral stability is very apparent. If you get banked a little too much, you'll slide right out of the sky. The UIUC folks did a very good job on the flight dynamics. My gut feeling is that this is probably very close in terms of performance to the original. Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
Curtis L. Olson writes: Your Wright flyer model is really starting to look sharp! Good work. :-) It looks great -- this is the first time I've tried it. With the mouse, at least, it's also quite easy to fly -- I had to work hard to make it overrotate. Jim: you need to make sure that the propellers are drawn last so that they don't obscure the airplane in external view. If you name all of the objects (so that you can tell which is which), you can rearrange them in the *.ac file using an ordinary text editor. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
At 10/16/02, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Jim, Your Wright flyer model is really starting to look sharp! Good work. :-) People need to check this out if they haven't already: fgfs --aircraft=wrightFlyer1903-v1-nl-uiuc The 1903 Wright Flyer has rudder coupled to wing warping. For this to work out right use: fgfs --aircraft=wrightFlyer1903-v1-nl-uiuc --enable-auto-coordination Then be sure to not input any rudder w/ the stick (i.e. don't twist the joystick). With later aircraft, the Wright Brothers de-coupled the wing warping from the rudder ... for good reason as can be deduced from flying the model. My confidence level in terms of the accuracy of the model (sans the engine) is pretty high. It's largely based on NASA Ames data from tests on a replica, which I mention in the readme: ~/fgfsbase/Aircraft/UIUC/wrightFlyer1903-v1-nl/README.wrightFlyer1903.html Sounds like I need to cvs-checkout out the latest stuff! Regards, Michael You definitely need to stay on your toes (so to speak) to keep this thing in the air. The lack of lateral stability is very apparent. If you get banked a little too much, you'll slide right out of the sky. The UIUC folks did a very good job on the flight dynamics. My gut feeling is that this is probably very close in terms of performance to the original. Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ** Prof. Michael S. Selig Dept. of Aero/Astro Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 306 Talbot Laboratory 104 South Wright Street Urbana, IL 61801-2935 (217) 244-5757 (o), (509) 691-1373 (fax) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/faq.html (FAQ) ** ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
At 10/16/02, David Megginson wrote: Curtis L. Olson writes: Your Wright flyer model is really starting to look sharp! Good work. :-) It looks great -- this is the first time I've tried it. With the mouse, at least, it's also quite easy to fly -- I had to work hard to make it overrotate. From the wind tunnel test data, up elevator (canard nose up) does not very quickly lead to a big stall. But if you get the nose moving up, the instability will in 1-2 sec lead to canard stall. That the canard power is pretty weak (i.e. not very effective) is consistent w/ the first flight: http://www.libraries.wright.edu/special/ Note the large amount of canard input. Regards, Michael Jim: you need to make sure that the propellers are drawn last so that they don't obscure the airplane in external view. If you name all of the objects (so that you can tell which is which), you can rearrange them in the *.ac file using an ordinary text editor. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ** Prof. Michael S. Selig Dept. of Aero/Astro Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 306 Talbot Laboratory 104 South Wright Street Urbana, IL 61801-2935 (217) 244-5757 (o), (509) 691-1373 (fax) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/faq.html (FAQ) ** ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Jim, Your Wright flyer model is really starting to look sharp! Good work. :-) Thanks! I was going to do a few more things before announcing it :-) I'm not sure if anyone has tried the java wright brothers sim that's floating around the internet. It seems to have much more severe lateral instability. Takes some practice to keep it in the air more than a few feet. The uiuc model on the other hand can be flown up to 200' AGL for several miles under windless conditions. Note that the actual first flight was done a fairly nasty day with a 15-20 knot headwind, which explains why the 100ft flight took 12 seconds to complete from lift off to touch down. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
David Megginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Curtis L. Olson writes: Your Wright flyer model is really starting to look sharp! Good work. :-) It looks great -- this is the first time I've tried it. With the mouse, at least, it's also quite easy to fly -- I had to work hard to make it overrotate. Thanks. It's getting there. I'm still trying to figure out from Orville's description how the elevator mecahnism works (for animation). Might need to go down to Owl's head again to take a another look at their replica. Still thinking about wing warping... (hints to the animation code guru :-)) Jim: you need to make sure that the propellers are drawn last so that they don't obscure the airplane in external view. If you name all of the objects (so that you can tell which is which), you can rearrange them in the *.ac file using an ordinary text editor. Yes I know about that. You guys just caught a bad revision. After commiting the addition of the drive chain runners I realized I forgot to do that. Actually in ac3d it's pretty easy. Just grouping and ungrouping the transparent objects puts them down the bottom of the list. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
Jim Wilson writes: David Megginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Curtis L. Olson writes: Your Wright flyer model is really starting to look sharp! Good work. :-) It looks great -- this is the first time I've tried it. With the mouse, at least, it's also quite easy to fly -- I had to work hard to make it overrotate. Thanks. It's getting there. I'm still trying to figure out from Orville's description how the elevator mecahnism works (for animation). Might need to go down to Owl's head again to take a another look at their replica. Still thinking about wing warping... (hints to the animation code guru :-)) look at the PLIB exposer demo for how the bones go together :^) Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Wright flyer
Michael Selig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: At 10/16/02, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Jim, Your Wright flyer model is really starting to look sharp! Good work. :-) People need to check this out if they haven't already: fgfs --aircraft=wrightFlyer1903-v1-nl-uiuc The 1903 Wright Flyer has rudder coupled to wing warping. For this to work out right use: fgfs --aircraft=wrightFlyer1903-v1-nl-uiuc --enable-auto-coordination Then be sure to not input any rudder w/ the stick (i.e. don't twist the joystick). Yes, in fact that should be in the *-set.xml file. It'd probably make sense to disable the rudder control and the throttle as well (there was no throttle on the engine). Another thing that was unique about the warping on the 1903 is the earlier glider twisted the entire wing structure. With the 1903 they trussed it all up so that only the trailing edges warped, making it even more aileron like. My confidence level in terms of the accuracy of the model (sans the engine) is pretty high. It's largely based on NASA Ames data from tests on a replica, which I mention in the readme: ~/fgfsbase/Aircraft/UIUC/wrightFlyer1903-v1-nl/README.wrightFlyer1903.html From what I've read it seems pretty accurate. It's hard to imagine what it must have been like for them to fly that aircraft. Wilbur tried it first, yanking hard back on the elevator to get it to lift off which caused a near stall and broken nose (on the aircraft). Attempting the same thing with this model has the identical result, without the damage of course. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
