Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
2012/2/23 Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net: Apparently I've been too ambitious and idealistic. I know that voluntary OpenSource development is primarily ego-driven, but there's a strong indication that I've still under-estimated the average Scenery- developers narcism: Scenery development is nowadays diverging into more different (and contradicting) branches than ever before - and almost no one cares. 2012/3/2 Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net: The one and only 'random' item in the entire discussion seems to be your misguided comment. Martin, Sorry but I can't help myself to make a connection between these 2 statements. You can't have it both ways : you can't expect others to be collaborative and helpful while giving the hell to those who are making errors or misunderstandings. Project management is as much about having social skills as it is about having technical skills. And the Open Source world is no exception. I am not saying that the difficulties you mentioned about scenery development are linked but I am certain that such behaviours do not help. Bertrand. -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
Salut Bertrand, thanks for your balanced statement. There's a lot I could explain and you deserve a proper response, if you like. Anyhow I've been with this project for long enough to know that I'm not going to change anything, not matter what I'd be resond (and how). Therefore I'm inclined to simply close this chapter, if you agree. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
Ron Jensen wrote: On Monday 27 February 2012 13:15:39 Martin Spott wrote: Martin Spott wrote: I don't have an idea, why - maybe that's been the default in PPE, AC3D or whichever tool. Jon made me aware of this issue many years ago (when we started filling the scenery objects database) and, as far as I remeber, I found evidence that Jon is right. BTW, from my perspective AC3D orientation in FlightGear is another issue worth fixing, but I'm uncertain wether it's clever to do both at the same time. There might be reasons to leave the AC3D oriantation the way it is, reasons which I'm completely unaware of. Please don't randomly change things. The model orientation, +X aft, +Z left and +Y up is a very common aerodynamic orientation. You probably haven't read my and/or the other postings in this thread before replying, therefore I'll repeat the context for you: The discussion is about model orientation in .stg-files, which, as most of us are aware of, are part of the FlightGear scenery, thus they relate to constructions on the ground. In the same context - of .stg-files - I was referring to the orientation of AC3D models. I agree that the schema you describe above is actually being used in aircraft manufacturing, but it's just one of several, contradictory schemes. Even the term aerodynamic orientation is generalizing because the choice depends on the use case (academic vs. industry, engineering, design, drawing vs. simulation, ) and, last but not least, on the manufacturer. But all this is irrelevant here, because we're talking about Scenery models on the ground. The one and only 'random' item in the entire discussion seems to be your misguided comment. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
Martin Spott wrote: But all this is irrelevant here, because we're talking about Scenery models on the ground. BTW, as a simple illustration for those who are unfamiliar with the topic, this is what you get by loading FlightGear's native orientation into OpenSceneGraph: http://foxtrot.mgras.net/bitmap/FGFS/ggb-ive.png In order to make things look well-behaved, all the Scenery models are getting rotated accordingly - a requirement which doesn't have much of a positive effect on streamlining Scenery distribution. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind direction
Whatever you do to fix it, please note that there is more than one windturbine model ;) E.g. this one I created recently: http://scenemodels.flightgear.org/modeledit.php?id=2418 IIRC it has the same animation setup, just different numbers. -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind direction
On 29/02/12 17:06, Gijs de Rooy wrote: Whatever you do to fix it, please note that there is more than one windturbine model ;) E.g. this one I created recently: http://scenemodels.flightgear.org/modeledit.php?id=2418 IIRC it has the same animation setup, just different numbers. It seems there was some weirdness in the db: landcover= select count(*),ob_heading from fgs_objects where ob_model=33 group by ob_heading; count | ob_heading ---+ 1 | 200.00 2 | 210.00 1 | 230.00 1 | 240.00 789 | 180.00 24262 | 0.00 (6 rows) So I've updated it, and we now have: landcover= select count(*),ob_heading from fgs_objects where ob_model=33 group by ob_heading; count | ob_heading ---+ 25056 | 0.00 (1 row) I'll do the same for model 2418 - then once everything is consistent we can see if any changes need to be made (they certainly used to work properly). -- Jon Stockill li...@stockill.net -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
On Monday 27 February 2012 13:15:39 Martin Spott wrote: Martin Spott wrote: I don't have an idea, why - maybe that's been the default in PPE, AC3D or whichever tool. Jon made me aware of this issue many years ago (when we started filling the scenery objects database) and, as far as I remeber, I found evidence that Jon is right. BTW, from my perspective AC3D orientation in FlightGear is another issue worth fixing, but I'm uncertain wether it's clever to do both at the same time. There might be reasons to leave the AC3D oriantation the way it is, reasons which I'm completely unaware of. Cheers, Martin. Please don't randomly change things. The model orientation, +X aft, +Z left and +Y up is a very common aerodynamic orientation. Ron -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind direction
Hi Martin and Olivier, I thought that windturbine orientation was correct in the past -- so please use due diligence to identify if the problem is just a misorientaiton of the base model, or if one of the components of the wind vector was reversed (or the code that takes the wind(east) and wind(north) components and derives the heading is correct.) If only east/west component is reversed, I don't think changing the base model orientation will actually fix the problem for all wind directions. Regards, Curt. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Olivier wrote: -- *De :* Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net *À :* flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net *Envoyé le :* Dimanche 26 février 2012 13h48 *Objet :* Re: [Flightgear-devel] Windturbines facing in wrong wind direction To make them work properly the orientation has to be changed to 0! That's rather strange. I thought the model would correct this by itself. If anybody verifies and tells me the ID of the affected model in Scenemodels, I'd fix the orientation of all of them - that's just a very simple one-liner in SQL, I don't have FG under the hand - should put it on a USB key. However, the model number is 33 : http://scenemodels.flightgear.org/modeledit.php?id=33 Olivier. -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Curtis Olson: http://www.atiak.com - http://aem.umn.edu/~uav/ http://www.flightgear.org - http://gallinazo.flightgear.org -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
Curtis Olson wrote: I thought that windturbine orientation was correct in the past -- so please use due diligence to identify if the problem is just a misorientaiton of the base model, or if one of the components of the wind vector was reversed (or the code that takes the wind(east) and wind(north) components and derives the heading is correct.) Indeed, I was a bit surprised as well by the anonymous claim. But, anyway, I'm not going to make any decision myself, just offering technical assistance. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind direction
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 09:54:40 -0600, Curtis Olson wrote: Hi Martin and Olivier, I thought that windturbine orientation was correct in the past -- so please use due diligence to identify if the problem is just a misorientaiton of the base model, or if one of the components of the wind vector was reversed (or the code that takes the wind(east) and wind(north) components and derives the heading is correct.) If only east/west component is reversed, I dont think changing the base model orientation will actually fix the problem for all wind directions. It may be from people submitting positions with an incorrect heading set. Since the model obviously turns into wind the heading should be 0 in the database, though this appears as 180 in the stg file. If someone's submitted a hand crafted stg file with all the headings set to 0 by mistake then it could explain the problem. I'll have a look when I get home from work. -- Jon Stockill li...@stockill.net -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
Jon Stockill wrote: It may be from people submitting positions with an incorrect heading set. Since the model obviously turns into wind the heading should be 0 in the database, though this appears as 180 in the stg file. If someone's submitted a hand crafted stg file with all the headings set to 0 by mistake then it could explain the problem. What about introducing .ttg as a new file format in FlightGear - t as *t*rue heading and because t is the successor to s :-) This would get rid of a big of annoyance in FG Scenery land. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.netwrote: Jon Stockill wrote: It may be from people submitting positions with an incorrect heading set. Since the model obviously turns into wind the heading should be 0 in the database, though this appears as 180 in the stg file. If someone's submitted a hand crafted stg file with all the headings set to 0 by mistake then it could explain the problem. What about introducing .ttg as a new file format in FlightGear - t as *t*rue heading and because t is the successor to s :-) This would get rid of a big of annoyance in FG Scenery land. What's the annoyance and why would changing the file extension name address it? Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://www.atiak.com - http://aem.umn.edu/~uav/ http://www.flightgear.org - http://gallinazo.flightgear.org -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
Curtis Olson wrote: On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.netwrote: What about introducing .ttg as a new file format in FlightGear - t as *t*rue heading and because t is the successor to s :-) This would get rid of a big of annoyance in FG Scenery land. What's the annoyance and why would changing the file extension name address it? The annoyance is the current orientation of objects in .stg-files. Defining 0 degrees in the south and turning anti-clockwise is not too appropriate in aviation land. A different filename extension would permit a smooth transition, thus introducing true heading and counting clockwise for Scenery objects, without breaking backwards compatibility. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
Really? Originally this was setup to be true heading -- I wonder when that got changed and if it was an intentional change or a mistake that wasn't caught at the time? Curt. On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Martin Spott wrote: Curtis Olson wrote: On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Martin Spott wrote: What about introducing .ttg as a new file format in FlightGear - t as *t*rue heading and because t is the successor to s :-) This would get rid of a big of annoyance in FG Scenery land. What's the annoyance and why would changing the file extension name address it? The annoyance is the current orientation of objects in .stg-files. Defining 0 degrees in the south and turning anti-clockwise is not too appropriate in aviation land. A different filename extension would permit a smooth transition, thus introducing true heading and counting clockwise for Scenery objects, without breaking backwards compatibility. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Curtis Olson: http://www.atiak.com - http://aem.umn.edu/~uav/ http://www.flightgear.org - http://gallinazo.flightgear.org -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
Curtis Olson wrote: Really? Originally this was setup to be true heading -- I wonder when that got changed and if it was an intentional change or a mistake that wasn't caught at the time? I don't have an idea, why - maybe that's been the default in PPE, AC3D or whichever tool. Jon made me aware of this issue many years ago (when we started filling the scenery objects database) and, as far as I remeber, I found evidence that Jon is right. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re : Windturbines facing in wrong wind
Martin Spott wrote: I don't have an idea, why - maybe that's been the default in PPE, AC3D or whichever tool. Jon made me aware of this issue many years ago (when we started filling the scenery objects database) and, as far as I remeber, I found evidence that Jon is right. BTW, from my perspective AC3D orientation in FlightGear is another issue worth fixing, but I'm uncertain wether it's clever to do both at the same time. There might be reasons to leave the AC3D oriantation the way it is, reasons which I'm completely unaware of. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
