RE: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
Roland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wrong! Look at iText http://www.lowagie.com/iText/ to see how simple their examples are. They build a complex table with just a few lines of java codes. Try doing the same with the XML/XSLT/XSL:FO approach and I guarantee you that the total outcome will be much more both in lines and complexity. I think to generate PDF with iText is as easy as generating XML from Java. XSLT is just a complicated language. You seem to assume that everyone wants to generates PDF form a Java program, using XML/XSLFO only as intermediate steps. In this case, you would have a point. However, it is possible that 1. The primary source is already XML (file or database), or you get XML from a source you can't control (for example a web service). 2. Apart from PDF, you have to present the same information in another format, in particular (X)HTML, perhaps and/or WML, VoiceXML, SVG ... I have to note we also generate source code in various programming languages as well as DDL and initial databease input from our XML using XSLT. If one of the above is true for a project, XSLT+FO can save some work and ease maintenance. If you have both, it's a very strong case for using XSLT+FO, other approaches are getting unmaintainable quickly. Regards J.Pietschmann - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
At 11:58 AM 2/1/02 -0800, you wrote: I've attached an XSLT stylesheet that we use to create a PDF version of a clinical trial participant's lab report. It uses some fairly Can you please send us an example of the generated pdf file? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
Well since you said please and it is a sunny day (at least in LA)... Roland wrote: At 11:58 AM 2/1/02 -0800, you wrote: I've attached an XSLT stylesheet that we use to create a PDF version of a clinical trial participant's lab report. It uses some fairly Can you please send us an example of the generated pdf file? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] LabReport.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
Our application is a servlet based web application. We have adopted the MVC approach. We found Cacoon over kill, so we implmented our own frame work. Our frame work requires all business components produce XML. We then use XSL:HTML to format HTML output for the browser. It was only a natural next step to use XSL:FO to generate PDF since we already had XML being generated. One of the real blessings of this approach is our clients can customize the look and feel of the application by changing the XSL files without our ever opening a Java source file. It was a BIG investment and learning curve up front to take this approach, but now that we are past that phase, the return on the investment has enabled us to justify the up front expense. Looking back, I think it was a vary sound decission. We are in a position where adding WAP (WML) and a B2b SOAP interface are a natural extension of our framework, not a rewrite. Thank yous go to not only FOP, but Xalan and Xerces for all the XML and XSL support! Jim Urban Product Manager Netsteps Inc. Suite 505E 1 Pierce Pl. Itasca, IL 60143 Voice: (630) 250-3045 x2164 Fax: (630) 250-3046 At 08:58 PM 1/29/02 -0500, you wrote: I would like to know why FOP enthousiast (I am one) are using FO rather than products such as Crystal Reports or other such software (anyone Jetfoms ?). Just for the fun of playing with new technology ? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
At 10:32 AM 2/1/02 -0600, you wrote: step to use XSL:FO to generate PDF since we already had XML being generated. One of the real blessings of this approach is our clients can customize the look and feel of the application by changing the XSL files without our ever opening a Java source file. We also have a web based service here, and currently are using the same approach as you are, but the problems we encouter are the following: If you generate XSL:FO from XML, the XSLT(stylesheet) can become very complicated, at least for us because: We generate a lot of tables, and they are quite different what concerns the formatting/color. That means, there has to be a section in the XSLT for each type of table and complicated if-then-else decisions to decide which formatting to apply and how. Take into account also, that up to now you have to manually code in the column width of each column in every table for FOP, this is a nightmare! In other words, changing the XSLT is much, much, much more painfull than changing a java source file(supposing the use of iText). An alternative for having a simpler XSLT, would be to encode most of the formatting in the XML, but then you would have XML with formatting information, and if you want to change the look and feel you have to change the java source that is generating the XML. I think the use of XSLT is only usefull if you have a standardized look and feel, like every table looks the same way, etc... But even then, if you decide that you need a new table it is very difficult to define a new formatting using XSLT to generate XSL:FO. XSL:FO is a complicated language, and the complexity transfers to the generating XSLT(which is cumbersome enough on its own), which looks like a big messy thing here at the company. Our XSLT files are currently VERY long and MESSY. It would be much simpler to code the same thing in Java, take a look at the iText page and their examples(http://www.lowagie.com/iText/). And if you still need your XML, you can take this approach: 1. Generate XML from Java for whatever you need. 2. Generate the PDF from Java using iText. I think this is probably the approach we are gonna take here... And if you code smartly you can arrange is to also not have to change the java source for a change of look and feel. Just store the formatting information in a '.properties' file like: tableBackGroundColor=red tableFont=Roman8 etc... Then you can change the look and fell by just editing that properties file... I will nail down the weaknesses of the XML-PDF approach: 1. XSL:FO is a very complicated and messy language 2. XSLT is also kinda complicated to use, at least if you have to do complicated formatting... Best regards...Roland - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
I will nail down the weaknesses of the XML-PDF approach: 1. XSL:FO is a very complicated and messy language 2. XSLT is also kinda complicated to use, at least if you have to do complicated formatting... I'm replying to my own email adding that of course I would be glad if someone can show me how to make a simpler XSLT. Maybe we just didn't figure out how to make the XSLT simple. But please take a look at the iText http://www.lowagie.com/iText/ examples first. That is what I call simplicity!!! Also keep in mind that we generate many different tables, with different formatting each on a single pdf document. Best regards, Roland - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
At 04:06 PM 2/1/02 -0200, you wrote: I will nail down the weaknesses of the XML-PDF approach: 1. XSL:FO is a very complicated and messy language 2. XSLT is also kinda complicated to use, at least if you have to do complicated formatting... Sometimes it seems folks assume that FO is synomous with pdf, but for some of us, the point of using FO is not to create pdf output but to format and send xml data directly to a printer. ;-) ' Best, -Ralph LaChance - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
Hi Roland, We had the very same prob cause the xsl that translate from our XML content to FO went quite messy as we made all modifications needed to paper export (we're usually building 50-200 pages in our pdfs, with many pictures, tables cause it's made of courses contents). So we made some kind of pre-formatting in a xmlsublanguage of our own then we actually turn everything to fo). That's not a big prob in our context since pdf building is almost an offline task, made by teachers. Cheers, Fred. ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.fr - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
Ralph LaChance wrote: At 04:06 PM 2/1/02 -0200, you wrote: I will nail down the weaknesses of the XML-PDF approach: 1. XSL:FO is a very complicated and messy language 2. XSLT is also kinda complicated to use, at least if you have to do complicated formatting... Sometimes it seems folks assume that FO is synomous with pdf, but for some of us, the point of using FO is not to create pdf output but to format and send xml data directly to a printer. ;-) Well, what does it take to develop an XSL-FO interpreter on a printer ? No need to transform to PDF or PS then. I thought of doing it for some time, but got discouraged when an old Xerox guy told me that Adobe actually supplies (for free ?) their PS interpreter and that developing an interpeter and fine-tuning it takes a LOT of time. Patrick Andries - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
Forgot to say that our fo formatting would be ready in 10 years when we'll have those *good* voice synthetizer that are supposed to *print* our fo code according to the XSL-FO specs. ;) Fred. --- Ralph LaChance [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : At 04:06 PM 2/1/02 -0200, you wrote: I will nail down the weaknesses of the XML-PDF approach: 1. XSL:FO is a very complicated and messy language 2. XSLT is also kinda complicated to use, at least if you have to do complicated formatting... Sometimes it seems folks assume that FO is synomous with pdf, but for some of us, the point of using FO is not to create pdf output but to format and send xml data directly to a printer. ;-) ' Best, -Ralph LaChance - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.fr - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
At 12:59 PM 2/1/02 -0600, you wrote: 2. XSLT is also kinda complicated to use, at least if you have to do complicated formatting... So is any other kind of programming language. The more complex the task, the more lines of coded need to achieve the desired results. Wrong! Look at iText http://www.lowagie.com/iText/ to see how simple their examples are. They build a complex table with just a few lines of java codes. Try doing the same with the XML/XSLT/XSL:FO approach and I guarantee you that the total outcome will be much more both in lines and complexity. I think to generate PDF with iText is as easy as generating XML from Java. XSLT is just a complicated language. But I will take a closer look at our xsl files and see how and if things could be simplified... Roland - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why do you use FOP instead of ...
Well, it wouldn't be off-topic if you pursued this on the fop-user mailing list. :-) Why do people use XSL-FO? Because they need high-quality printing and the formatting vocabulary described in the XSL 1.0 Recommendation suits those needs, AND the data to be formatted is already represented in XML. That's my minimalist view. :-) Regards, Arved Sandstrom -Original Message- From: Patrick Andries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: January 29, 2002 9:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Why do you use FOP instead of ... I would like to know why FOP enthousiast (I am one) are using FO rather than products such as Crystal Reports or other such software (anyone Jetfoms ?). Just for the fun of playing with new technology ? Thanks for any hints (in private since this is off-topic) Patrick Andries - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
