quote who=Behdad Esfahbod
[/me removes board hat]
Hi everyone,
I like to ask for your support in my petition for referendum to make
foundation-list archives private and membership limited to actual
Foundation members. If we make that change we would be able to discuss
matters freely
quote who=Gregory Leblanc
On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 2:37 AM, Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The board had meetings on the 14th and 21st to discuss a confidential
matter which the board hopes to disclose in the near future. No minutes
were taken because of the confidential nature of the
quote who=Johannes Schmid
Sorry, to step into this discussion, but I would really like to point out
that every part of the world may have a gnome conference, even an
important or *the* GNOME conference. But why can we keep GUADEC the
european conference?
If you want to do a GUAD*C at any
quote who=Claudio Saavedra
I currently don't like the fact that no one can even consider working in
such a proposal.
I think it's possible, but there's little incentive to right now, because
it seems so unlikely that it would succeed. If there was a bid that might
succeed, it would be a cheap
quote who=Thomas Thurman
Is the rule about having GUADEC in Europe rather than, say, in Bangalore
still in play, by the way?
The 'E' still stands for Europe, yeah. ;-)
- Jeff
--
GUADEC 2008: Istanbul, Turkey http://www.guadec.org/
The two [separate] UIs are both
quote who=Jeff Waugh
quote who=Thomas Thurman
Is the rule about having GUADEC in Europe rather than, say, in Bangalore
still in play, by the way?
The 'E' still stands for Europe, yeah. ;-)
Aha, was this more in reference to the text of the CfH? In that case, it's a
minor disconnect
quote who=BJörn Lindqvist
Americans might feel that it is a little unfair that guadec always is in
Europe. Couldn't there be two conferences?
GUADEC and the Boston Summit. :-)
- Jeff
--
OSCON 2008: Portland OR, USA http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/
Imagine a four
quote who=Clare So
Where in the world with the highest concentration of GNOME and KDE
community? This thread has so far been considering the GNOME community
only.
Both communities have their strongest presence in Europe.
- Jeff
--
GUADEC 2008: Istanbul, Turkey
quote who=Dave Neary
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
No further proof needed...
The Reply-To header was actually set to your own address, not to that of the
list. :-)
- Jeff
--
OSCON 2008: Portland OR, USA http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/
The cool stuff
quote who=Jeff Waugh
No further proof needed...
The Reply-To header was actually set to your own address, not to that of the
list. :-)
[ Dave points out that the offending Reply-To was of course on the announce
list email. While entirely intentional, and more effective than setting
quote who=Ani Peter
I have heard a lot of people pronouncing GNOME as Ga-nome and I feel Nome
is the correct pronunciation.
Appreciate if someone please advise me which is the correct pronunciation.
When folks ask me about this at conferences and such, I always say, doesn't
matter how you
quote who=Federico Mena Quintero
What I want to resolve is this:
So do I, as already noted.
Sucking guidelines out of my head --- that's exactly the kind of problem
we need to solve.
That's why I mentioned it.
- Jeff
--
linux.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australia
quote who=Og Maciel
Federico,
Thank you for spearheading this.
Please don't turn this into something it is not. I had already been working
on this before threads on this list, and before Federico's recent mails. It
is not particularly motivating to see the issue approached in this way.
-
quote who=Federico Mena Quintero
But please don't ignore the question I asked:
Who's on the potential maintainership team for PGO, so that we may
inquire them about the progress?
Sorry, but I'm not going to get caught up in pointless crap like this. Some
folks may think it's okay to treat
quote who=Julien PUYDT
You've been asked to be more open, don't get annoyed if people are pissed
by closed non-answers!
I'm mostly annoyed at the attitude rather than the questions (even the ones
that have already been answered). I don't really feel an obligation to give
answers to people who
quote who=Federico Mena Quintero
It's somewhat more intricate than that -- I'm writing it up atm, so
people can understand the decision making process (guidelines). That's
the first step. :-)
Ping. Any progress on this, so the editorial policy can be linked from
Planet?
Also, Dave's
quote who=Richard Stallman
I don't recall that any candidate explicily rejected supporting the free
software movement by means other than improving the attractiveness and
success of GNOME. But several candidates answered in a way that seemed to
pointedly imply a rejection of any such form of
quote who=Elijah Newren
What will you as a candidate do to make sure we avoid this mess in the
future?
Work with the Membership Committee to document their practices and make sure
they perform them more consistently in future years.
During the current term, I have already made that you won't
quote who=Jeff Waugh
Work with the Membership Committee to document their practices and make
sure they perform them more consistently in future years.
Miss one word and it changes the entire tone... and help make sure. They
have done a great job this year, though as a result of numerous
quote who=Shaun McCance
And all of this could have been explained just as simply if the folks at
boycottnovell.com had simply emailed us and asked for details, instead of
posting unsubstantiated drivel.
Pretty much the crux of the issue with that website. Despite transparency
into the
quote who=Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
I think you're way too harsh on people who actually concluded things like:
Sorry, but the negativity of that site greatly outweighs the positive. It
takes more than a little sucking up to earn back my respect after the crap
they've been spewing.
- Jeff
--
quote who=Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
Yelp has had an optional Beagle dependency for at least 2 years. It's
optional, and it's not news.
We need a new RPM in some distributions, as optional dependencies are not
part of current RPM in Fedora, for instance :)
libbeagle does not depend on Mono.
quote who=Bastien Nocera
libbeagle does not depend on Mono. Perhaps, if the Fedora RPM of
libbeagle actually depends on Mono, it needs to be fixed.
It doesn't.
I am Jack's abject lack of surprise. :-)
- Jeff
--
linux.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australiahttp://lca2008.linux.org.au/
quote who=Richard Stallman
The reason this is not so is that Microsoft is trying to spin the apparent
support of GNOME into proof that OOXML is not bad for free software.
Microsoft haven't done so publicly thus far, but the risk is there, and we
will endeavour to make it absolutely clear that
quote who=Joe Shaw
It's been frustrating over the past few years that GNOME hasn't taken a
firm position on the issue.
Agree.
I suspect there hasn't been anything firm because (a) there is quite a bit
of division within the community on the issue and (b) there is some
element of walking on
quote who=Og Maciel
On Nov 29, 2007 5:40 PM, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If these programs are important enough to deserve the term miss out
on, then I think they should be written in another language.
Note that the above quote is misattributed, and was stated by Richard, not
me
quote who=Behdad Esfahbod
But if you look, I asked for help about Boston Summit on the boston-social
list as early as June:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/boston-social/2007-June/msg0.html
and got no reply. I mailed at least three Boston residents directly and
got no reply either.
quote who=Ghee Teo
Have the board paused and thought why the Summit has to be Boston? Is it
because most hackers work around Boston? May be it was the case.
Because there's a critical mass of developers there -- most of both the Red
Hat and Novell desktop teams.
- Jeff
--
GNOME.conf.au
quote who=Jeff Waugh
quote who=Ghee Teo
Have the board paused and thought why the Summit has to be Boston? Is it
because most hackers work around Boston? May be it was the case.
Because there's a critical mass of developers there -- most of both the
Red Hat and Novell desktop teams
quote who=Gregory Leblanc
While this is all technically true, I think it's somewhat misleading,
based on my recollections, and what I could find in a brief browse of
the mailing list archives.
There was much clearer leadership in the community then, but I do not
believe that the community
quote who=Jeff Waugh
quote who=Richard Stallman
1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
OOXML?
I'd probably include a message about not fighting OOXML on political
grounds because they have no impact on the ISO standardisation process. To
succeed, we need
quote who=Vincent Untz
Jeff is right: it's not all rollercoasters and martinis. There's ice cream
too.
I heartily endorse this strategy. /quimby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/garrett/858313114/
- Jeff
--
linux.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australiahttp://lca2008.linux.org.au/
quote who=Richard Stallman
1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
OOXML?
I'd probably include a message about not fighting OOXML on political grounds
because they have no impact on the ISO standardisation process. To succeed,
we need to fight OOXML under the terms
quote who=jamie
I can see MS spinning this to their advantage and I believe playing safe
here would be better for us in the short term
Thing is, Microsoft haven't spun it to their advantage. They've mentioned
that Gnumeric is implementing OOXML, but that actually works against them
(due to the
quote who=jamie
In any event I dont understand why the gnome foundation was pulled into
this - cant you do your work with ECMA without foundation backing?
As explained in the statement, the GNOME Foundation joined ECMA as a
non-profit to allow Jody to continue his work sucking the
quote who=jamie
On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 04:45 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote:
quote who=jamie
In any event I dont understand why the gnome foundation was pulled
into this - cant you do your work with ECMA without foundation
backing?
As explained in the statement, the GNOME Foundation
quote who=Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
The more you guys keep playing the neutral game, the more you'll get
abused like this.
There is no neutral game being played here. Concerns were raised that the
GNOME Foundation's participation in EMCA TC45-M suggested that we supported
OOXML becoming an ISO
quote who=Andrew Cowie
On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 06:34 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote:
* This year has been pretty tough for me as a Board member, as I've
been starting a new business which has required a lot of time, I have
been travelling a lot, and conference calls have been at a particularly
quote who=Murray Cumming
This is generally caused by the habit of only making decisions in
meetings, instead of making decisions on the mailing list. And a tendency
to think that all decisions must be unanimous.
A majority of the decisions this year were made on the mailing list, with a
quote who=Vincent Untz
(also I'm not sure why you mention GTK+ developers never requested a GTK+
summit: it seems to me they did)
It's sort of in the middle -- they wanted to do one, but never really came
to the Board for support. We've always been 100% behind helping though! I'm
going to
quote who=Anne Østergaard
Will you apply for the position as new Executive Director for GNOME?
Will you apply for any paid position within GNOME while serving as board
member?
Unlikely, although I have considered it in the past. It would be foolish to
rule anything out. Enough people have
quote who=Bruno Boaventura
[1] How much impact would being a member of the GNOME Foundation Board
have on your current contributions to GNOME ?
Not a huge amount -- most of what I do these days is either related in some
way to the Board, or keeping things ticking as maintenance. While I've
quote who=George Kraft
On Fri, 2007-11-16 at 02:49 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote:
No director represents their affiliation -- they're elected to represent
the GNOME Foundation membership after all -- but it must be documented
(least of all because of the maximum representation rule).
Should I
quote who=George Kraft
Great to see you running. So, you are not with IBM anymore? In that
case your Bio page is outdated.
I still work for IBM, but I would not officially represent them with
respect to GNOME.
No director represents their affiliation -- they're elected to represent the
quote who=Vincent Untz
+ small meetings/hackfests:
As mentioned to the Board previously, I'd like to put a GNOME Mobile (maybe
also GTK+ if they're keen [1]) summit on the budget agenda for March/April
2008, in Europe. It's far enough away from both the Boston Summit and GUADEC
that I think
quote who=Vincent Untz
Also, people tend to forget what they wrote in their introduction after a
few months :-) Again, as Quim said, it's not because they're bad people.
It's just really easy to forget the original plan when many new things
have appeared in the meantime!
(I'm sure I'd be
quote who=Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak
Did the foundation come out against bounties on principal, or has the idea
just not gone anywhere?
Given that you've read previous threads here, I'll just briefly summarise
where I think we stand with regards to bounties:
We've had some success and some
quote who=David Bolter
It is perhaps of interest to some that the Mozilla Foundation has not
found it easy to find a new Executive Director (see
http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/executive-director-search.html). Note
the Mozilla position comes with salary and benefits. Are we thinking the
quote who=Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay
That in effect perhaps raises the important question So who would be a
good member of the Board?.
Above all else, I hope you vote for people you know and trust to represent
what you value about GNOME. To put it in a clunky but simple way, if GNOME
is People,
quote who=Quim Gil
Also, looking backwards we also see that our time and issues could have
been invested much better.
I think that's probably true, but I strongly disagree with your examples. I
also think that with such high expectations, we can beat ourselves up pretty
badly even when we do
quote who=Dave Neary
Jeff Waugh wrote:
Things change -- what was taken for granted while you were on the Board
may not be the case now.
Way to make a guy feel like his opinion is worth something Jeff.
Huh? Of course your opinion is worth something, but the issue is not static.
Would
quote who=Alan Cox
As for trashing you, it seems any comment about the boards actions or
activities that is the slighest bit negative or in disagreement with
yourself you take as a personal insult and follow up in flowery language
attempting to supress the dissent by acting hurt.
I pointed
quote who=Luis Villa
I volunteered to take leadership on this position months ago.
We chose to have a Board member as liaison to the Legal team, which was very
clearly delegated the responsibility to provide legal support and advice to
the Foundation. This is the same model as other teams, but
quote who=Luis Villa
I am frustrated, and so I will be running for the board again.
If elected, my almost-exclusive focus will be handling legal and
secretarial issues for the board. So I can't guarantee that my being on
the board would necessarily have prevented this particular problem,
quote who=Andy Tai
Maybe Jody's involvement can be just his personal activity and totally
separated from, and have nothing to do with, GNOME.
His involvement is facilitated by our membership of ECMA. We were entirely
willing to do so.
- Jeff
--
GNOME.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australia
quote who=Luis Villa
I'm hesitant to declare it a failure until I see more evidence that
delegation has been tried and failed. For example, I could do this sort of
thing without being on the board at all- no need to appoint me to the
board. But frankly I have not felt like my attempts to help
quote who=Dave Neary
What we've shown is not having a full-time director has been a mistake
It has actually been a very helpful learning experience -- understanding
what the purpose of that role should be, by grokking the gaps. It's less
obvious what that role ought to be now that we're so far
quote who=Andy Tai
For the future the board should really consider not sponsoring anyone to
work on the OOXML format
No one was sponsored to work on the OOXML format.
(and withdraw existing involvement on the behalf of the GNOME Foundation),
as many people in the free software/FOSS
quote who=Luis Villa
So, uh... this apparently didn't happen, and now we're getting flamed
(rightfully) for appearing to give a stamp of approval to a deeply flawed
standard. So... when is the board making this happen?
Although I disagree with the tone and content of your email, an
quote who=Luis Villa
This flaming was completely and utterly predictable. I'm disappointed that
the board took the time to approve an action that obviously exposed GNOME
to PR problems without taking the (very obvious) PR steps to reduce that
impact.
Based on the genesis of the open letter,
quote who=Dave Neary
Voting in referenda is generally not very high, and there was 0 debate on
this issue on the list (I did see some grumbling on IRC, but nothing
concrete), so it's hardly an initiative that's going to mobilise the
troops.
There was buttloads of discussion around the
quote who=Dave Neary
Quim Gil wrote:
What happens when you get less than 7 people with votes?
I don't understand - you mean if there are fewer than 7 candidates?
Quim meant fewer than seven who receive votes at all (implying that there
would be other candidates running who received none).
quote who=Vincent Untz
But I'm 100% fine with this since we still didn't change most of the world
to understand French; hopefully we will get there soon! ;-)
This would be an entirely reasonable catalyst for applying censorship to
Planet GNOME.
- Jeff
--
GNOME.conf.au 2008: Melbourne,
quote who=Alvaro Lopez Ortega
The planet is not a newspaper or a magazine, it is just a planet. That
censorship / editorial line idea doesn't make any sense to me.
I hope that this is a similar effect to that of great design -- you don't
notice the editorship because Planet is highly readable
quote who=Alvaro Lopez Ortega
Jeff Waugh wrote, On 13/09/07 11:43:
The planet is not a newspaper or a magazine, it is just a planet.
That censorship / editorial line idea doesn't make any sense to me.
I hope that this is a similar effect to that of great design -- you
don't
quote who=Tristan Van Berkom
*sigh*, I wonder what you are basing this claim on, maybe there's an
archived thread that you could reffer us to which details that ?
Unfortunately my blog didn't have comments at the time, so most of the
responses to this were on IRC or by mail. It's mentioned
quote who=Steve Frécinaux
I'd even go one step further saying than most people care about gnome and
gnome apps, and not about one's cats and the other's culinar niceties.
Because despite Gnome is people, I think that for most people, Planet
Gnome is primarily about Gnome.
Well, that's
quote who=Federico Mena Quintero
The current editorial control is simply more or less if you ever did
something peripherally related to GNOME, you can be on Planet, regardless
of what you post.
It's somewhat more intricate than that -- I'm writing it up atm, so people
can understand the
quote who=Pascal Terjan
I think that asking people to have tags/categories on their blogs and not
aggregate everything would be better than having all the content of the
ones who arrived first.
Planet GNOME is about the people moreso than the project. We talk about the
project *all the time*.
quote who=Jeff Waugh
That's why full feeds are preferred over GNOME-specific tags
Minor point: I do mean 'preferred'. If someone has a good reason for wanting
only their GNOME-related posts on Planet I'm cool with that, but I always go
back to ask before putting them up. So no knicker-twisting
quote who=Dave Neary
I think it's a mistake not to have someone in Boston involved early in the
planning process.
This problem would not have been solved by having someone in Boston involved
early in the planning process. It's just rotten luck.
- Jeff
--
Open Source in Mobile 2007: Madrid,
quote who=Dave Neary
I think it's a mistake not to have someone in Boston involved early in
the planning process.
This problem would not have been solved by having someone in Boston
involved early in the planning process. It's just rotten luck.
I didn't say it would have been.
quote who=Dave Neary
You don't have to take this as some kind of challenge to your authority,
and get defensive about it.
I'm objecting to your repeated griping-without-helping (and now in public),
Dave. It's not motivating *or* helpful, particularly following up to this.
- Jeff
--
quote who=Havoc Pennington
Bringing it back to the present, there's stuff on svn.mugshot.org that
really belongs on gnome.org, but it seems it didn't end up there. I don't
think this was a conscious thing, but I think it probably was due to just
enough of a barrier to create a new gnome
quote who=Richard Stallman
To promote software freedom, it is vital to talk about free software,
because the term Open source is most often used to lead attention away
from issues of freedom.
There'll be all kinds of explanation about Software Freedom and Open Source
in the opening of the
quote who=Andy Tai
It still looks strange to have the voting body to vote to extend the term
of the current board, not the same as a general election.
Extending the terms of some leadership tend to happen under situations
where something prevents the holding of regular elections... nothing
quote who=Andy Tai
OK, simply, the stated reason for the extraordinary measure (face to face
meeting timing) is not a strong one to justify touching the term limit of
the board.
In that case -- let's try for productive input here, if possible -- how do
you suggest we solve the problem? (Or
quote who=Quim Gil
1. Make sure that from a legal point of view we can have board mandate not
coinciding with budget terms. If legally we can't do it the rest is
pointless.
I've put it to our legal folks and am waiting for a response.
2. Check if the current board members would be willing
quote who=Quim Gil
The current board was elected for one year and there is no exceptional
reason to change this. The next board can be elected for an extended
period and then voters and electors know what is going on beforehand.
We could do that, and it has been discussed in the past, but it
quote who=Vincent Untz
Sorry, I'm going to dive into boring details...
Is this something from the by-laws (I couldn't find a reference to the
10 days notice there, but I only gave a quick look), or something you
are suggesting?
Yes. See under VII: 3-8.
And by vote, do you mean referendum
quote who=Vincent Untz
Forgot to reply to this: one worry (which is valid, IMHO) is that we don't
know if all current board members will have time for the first six months
of 2008. I know I have absolutely no idea right now if I'll be able to
continue.
Agree, though directors can resign, and
quote who=Jeff Waugh
So really, if we do a referendum, we have two questions:
+ Do you want to shift the election cycle?
+ Do you want to extend the current mandate of the board?
I don't think we should mix them.
Two questions can be the kiss of death for a 'referendum
quote who=Shaun McCance
While this year's and last year's GUADECs were in July, previous GUADECs
have been in April (2001), May (2005), and June (2004). If we have
elections in May and June, then we wouldn't want to have future GUADECs
any earlier than July. I don't know if that's a
quote who=Julien PUYDT
I don't have anything against the current board, BUT extending a term
after the voters cast their vote is very wrong.
As mentioned in the original mail: (Note that the Board is unlikely to make
a change like this without formally consulting our membership via a
quote who=The Face of Sun Microsystems
Jeff Waugh wrote:
3. Recommend that future Boards appoint the President and
Vice-President from elected directors annually (instead of Chairman and
Vice-Chairman)
As a slightly confusing nit, are we now saying there will only be
President, Vice
quote who=Claudio Saavedra
If I remember correctly, that's the situation since last year, when we
decided to switch boards with the year change. What I don't remember (and
can't find in the rules you linked), is what was the situation before.
When used the boards to switch before that?
Hi all,
Another administrative issue the Board needs to deal with, but vastly less
interesting or controversial than the one raised in my last email. :-)
The Board is planning to fix a minor but institutionalised problem with the
practice of selecting and current state of Foundation Board
quote who=Dave Neary
I think there's value in having a figurehead president divorced from the
day-to-day running of things
Unfortunately, that is not how the position is defined in the bylaws. Over
the past few years, what we have called the Chairman (for touchy-feely
reaosns) has for all
quote who=Thomas Wood
During discussions about copyright at GUADEC several people mentioned that
developers were not encouraged to assign copyright to the GNOME
Foundation.
Not so much not encouraged as no one's ever done it before and we haven't
created the necessary
quote who=Thomas Wood
We were aware of this, but since contributions mean that there are often a
half a dozen different contributors to one file, we thought it may be
easier to assign copyright and then list the contributors as authors.
Copyright assignment generally doesn't make things for
quote who=Rodrigo Moya
hmm, sorry to say that, but I was under the impression this was suggested
many years ago (2/3 or maybe 4), and indeed I've written some code myself
assigning the copyright to the foundation. Usually small stuff that is not
in GNOME, but I just had a look, and the whole
Adding Amy Jiang to the Cc. Hi Amy! :-)
- Jeff
quote who=Quim Gil
This is a call for volunteers and interested GNOME lovers in Beijing /
China / East Asia. Please forward to friends and contacts that might
be interested.
There is this initial idea of organizing a GNOME event in Beijing
quote who=Ghee Teo
Does this also implies there is a going to be by-election (first one
ever) :) ?
No, according to the GNOME Foundation by-laws, the Board may appoint a new
director in the case of a vacancy (which we did last year under the same
circumstances).
- Jeff
--
GUADEC 2007 in
quote who=Olav Vitters
Mailing list setup is broken. Hiring someone to figure it all out might be
a good idea; because currently I do not setup mailing lists just because I
do not want to figure out how.
I studied the broken setup a couple of weeks ago after doing blogo - I think
I'll be able
quote who=Bruno Boaventura
I think it's time to add more contributors on sysadmin. Me and Diego are
very interested to contribute in many areas on GNOME. We have time,
motivation and love, but we need help to start. I'm a person who can learn
quickly.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, and
quote who=Murray Cumming
So, I think you should please ask the advisory board, and then I think you
should try to find somebody. They might say No, but in the past they've
wanted to be asked more often, because they want to help.
There are plenty of part-time student sysadmins at
quote who=Corey Burger
1. Planet
We absolutely need a team around this. The delays make no sense
There haven't been significant delays recently. Vincent has been managing
the GSoC folks to help out, which has been great. Strong editorship is one
of the reasons why Planet GNOME is more readable
quote who=Olav Vitters
Nice! Please document the new stuff on the wiki.
All fixed. Nothing new, just working without unexpected insanity. Sysadmin
info updated on http://live.gnome.org/NewListRequest
I'm going through the (one or two) remaining list requests in RT now.
- Jeff
--
Ubuntu Live
quote who=Luis Villa
Of course, I'd be more comfortable with it if we put out a press release
saying something to the effect of 'we see no way to avoid implementing
OOXML without screwing our users, so we're joining ECMA to make sure it
sucks as little as possible. All other things being
quote who=Lucas Rocha
I think it would make sense to have both conferences scheduled in way that
it would be easier for us, GNOMErs, to attend both. But I don't think we
should have only one merged KDE/GNOME conference. Even though we aim to
increase the collaboration with KDE, we're still
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