Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
Hello everybody, Please, note that this thread (already very long) will become moderated now and no further posts will be let through unless I or some other list moderator believe that there"s a very good reason for it. Thanks for your understanding Tomas (one of FPC mailing list moderators) ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 29/04/2023 12:24, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: I find it very odd the way you write above, and that you insist on defending Nikolay/Joanna. Nikolay is a member of the FPC core team. As a result, we know him fairly well. He really is not Joanna. Jonas ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
Hi Tomas, On 4/29/23 08:33, Tomas Hajny wrote: On 29 April 2023 0:05:53 +0200, Jacob Kroon wrote: On 4/28/23 23:49, Tomas Hajny via fpc-other wrote: Hi Jacob, responding just privately this time... ^^^ I think that is an odd decision; for transparency I think its better to have the conversation on the mailing list. Please, stop this witch hunting game. No, Nikolay isn"t Joanna. I thought that there was only one person throwing accusations without any evidence in this whole discussion, but it seems that I was wrong. :-( Please, be better at least by being able to admit your mistake. Asking Nikolay for an excusing you would be the right thing to do if you want to know my opinion No, I object to "without any evidence": I posted the evidence is here: https://justpaste.it/cfh0e If you take the time to read the logs, I *think* you will see that I was not being confrontational at all. If you think I am wrong, please explain where and why, I meant your statement that Nikolay = Joanna. Remember that it was one of Joanna's claims that people try to use different nicks to fool her and one of stated reasons for interviewing newcomers, etc. You didn't provide any evidence for that statement. It couldn't be derived reasonable from the mail nor from the IRC logs (and it's pure nonsense). On top of that, Nikolay's e-mail was very objective from my point of view. I understand that you may be upset by the situation, but I suggest that you read it again without prejudice and without making any assumptions. I find it very odd the way you write above, and that you insist on defending Nikolay/Joanna. Jacob ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other said on Sat, 29 Apr 2023 09:40:03 +0300 >On 4/29/23 09:02, Steve Litt via fpc-other wrote: >1.5) In 2020, Freenode's #fpc channel was being ruined by a troll, who >was flooding the channel with crap, offtopic links and misinformation >about Pascal and would hijack and steer every real Pascal discussion >to absurd topics, like, for example, whether the moon landings were >faked. It's not like offtopic discussion was banned, but he was >disrupting any regular and meaningful talk. It was horrible, I have >described it several times as a burning trash can. The FPC moderators >at the time didn't do anything, even though Joanna complained on the >forums: It's true. There are people who deliberately sow discord. They ruin formerly good communication venues, and they should be immediately kicked out of the venue. I once saw a flame war tear apart a wonderful Linux group: It was horrible. You have my word that on #fpc-alt and ##fpc-alt, I'll remove anyone who is just trying to start trouble for trouble's sake. I didn't put that in the topic yet, but when it becomes necessary, I will, and I'll also give the troublemaker a warning before banning him or her if the deliberate troublemaking continues. I've done this before, on a mailing list I controlled. It's amazing how few people you have to ban to have a civilized and productive venue. I banned three people, two of whom never knew they were banned. In the 19 year history of the GoLUG (Greater Orlando Linux User Group) I probably had to issue about 10 warnings, and once I put every single person under moderation to stop a rapidly developing flame war. It never happened again. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 10:49:06PM +, HSN via fpc-other wrote: > [...] > Now that they have for the time being given up on the goal of hijacking > #fpc, it seems to be just the colo account in there saying things to make > Lazarus ide look like it has problems. > [...] I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. Thank you very much in advance. As a reminder, already in October 2022, two of the IRC network operators of the libera IRC network you registered the fpc-related channels on judged your moderation actions after having observed them for a while as (I quote) the following: [16:26:37] colo: Vote with your feet. This channel is, unfortunately, quite toxic and there looks to be no one that cares enough to address it. [16:27:10] This is now the third user that this particular op has forced out of the channel in the few days I've been present. [16:27:53] I completely agree. Nobody should stay in a channel where they are unhappy. [16:28:17] You are, as always, missing the very obvious point. [16:28:28] What is that? [16:28:39] that you're running the channel quite toxicly [16:28:41] _YOU_ are the common denominator in this. [16:29:42] there's nothing staff can or should do about that, channels are free to run themselves how they want, but my opinion is you're running this channel with unnecessary and arbitrary use of power [16:38:45] colo: This channel is inarguably in the wrong namespace. We don't enforce the rule but it does exist. You are free to create ##fpc if you'd like and perhaps others will feel as you do that this channel is toxic and move elsewhere if they had a suitable place to go. [16:40:00] Boohumbug I agree [16:40:16] I'm not looking for your agreement. [16:40:19] Boohumbug, I do understand that option, but I have no standing whatsoever in the free pascal community (only started engaging with it a few weeks ago), and I don't feel like I could be an appropriate steward of that community (or channel) as a result [16:40:50] ## channels are first-come first-serve. They don't need to represent a project, they just need someone to watch over them. [16:41:32] But the suggestion stands. As jess pointed out there is nothing we can do to try to address this issue here; the powers that be have made their stance known and nothing is going to change. (More context, for anyone who cares: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1273023) -- with best regards: - Johannes Truschnigg ( johan...@truschnigg.info ) signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/29/23 09:02, Steve Litt via fpc-other wrote: Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other said on Fri, 28 Apr 2023 21:39:04 +0300 Maybe #fpc-alt will become a better unofficial IRC channel? So far, I've joined the #fpc-alt channel (without leaving #fpc), to support an alternative channel as well, but I'm not very impressed, not only due to the lack of people (only 3 people, including me), but also due to the fact that there's not even a topic. Today at about 7PM New York time, prompted by a suggestion on ##fpc-alt, I added the following /topic to #fpc-alt: === Topic for #fpc-alt is: Ontopic list for Free Pascal. Offtopic channel is ##fpc-alt. Rules: Treat your fellow channel inhabitants like you'd like to be treated. === I also created a similar /topic for ##fpc-alt , which is the offtopic FPC channel. I know growing a channel takes time, Yes. Also, these are the first two IRC channels I've ever managed. I've managed mailing lists, but never IRC channels. So I have a lot to learn. My first choice would be for somebody like you or Tomas to be in charge of #fpc. My second choice would be for somebody like you or Tomas to take over #fpc-alt. The only reason I registered and run #fpc-alt is because people who are genuinely using or thinking about using FreePascal need a place they can listen, ask or help without fear of banning. I have lots of ambitions, but believe me, being king of an IRC channel isn't one of them. :-) [snip] maybe #fpc-alt will grow a large community as well, and will allow a more free and welcoming to newcomers environment. I hope so, and I hope that later somebody more invested in FreePascal will take over #fpc-alt. And of course, there's also #lazarus, where moderation was taken up by giantm (a Lazarus developer). Even though #lazarus has only about 20 people, they managed to give me some help on sound issues. There's also a lot of documentation on the Libera Chat website: https://libera.chat/guides/#running-a-channel So, plenty of alternative places to talk, if you're not happy about #fpc. I wouldn't call it "plenty", because there are a few hundred on #fpc, and it's my opinion that a lot of them would be more forthcoming with help if they weren't worried about the possibility of being censured for giving the help using the wrong phrases. [snip] Technically speaking, she didn't "hijack" the channel. She is the channel owner, by virtue of being the first person to register it on this IRC network. Speaking *only* of #fpc and not #pascal, my understanding of the events is: 1) Freenode's #fpc was an official FreePascal venue. Yes, and: 1.5) In 2020, Freenode's #fpc channel was being ruined by a troll, who was flooding the channel with crap, offtopic links and misinformation about Pascal and would hijack and steer every real Pascal discussion to absurd topics, like, for example, whether the moon landings were faked. It's not like offtopic discussion was banned, but he was disrupting any regular and meaningful talk. It was horrible, I have described it several times as a burning trash can. The FPC moderators at the time didn't do anything, even though Joanna complained on the forums: https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=51491.0 As a result, I was given access to the #fpc channel. Joanna was not given access, but I banned the troll, and things went better. However, Joanna would often advise me when she thinks someone is a troll and ask me to ban him/her. She was always suspicious of newcomers. She didn't like it, when a new users comes and starts lurking, etc. However, I would exercise my own judgement. I'll admit that, there were several occasions, where it looked like an overreaction, but it turned out that her intuition was right. Eventually, due to real life issues, I started having less and less time to spend on IRC, so Joanna would contact me on the forums, if she thinks someone needs to be banned. I would then look at the channel logs and exercise my own judgement. 2) Freenode went bad. Yes. 3) Joanna registered #fpc on before anyone else. Yes. At the time, none of the FPC developers had any time to spend on IRC moderation. I asked Joanna for access to the channel, and then I gave access to Karoly Balogh, who was also on IRC, so that we have some official FPC people as moderator. However, in practice, none of us had any time to watch the channel. 4) Joanna banned 42 people and, in my informed opinion, made the rules all about her personal preferences. Apparently, yes. Although I suspect some of them are legit users, who got banned, but there were also genuine trolls, who often use sock puppet accounts. So, some of these 42 accounts are actually fewer people. However, who is a troll and who isn't - I don't know. At this point, I wasn't really moderating the channel anymore. I suspect it's maybe 2 or 3 trolls using
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
Jacob, First let me say that I am someone who has been in your position, I have some applications that I wrote in Turbo Pascal for DOS that I wanted to get working on a modern PC, and I came across FreePascal. Many times things just don't work the way they used to and I needed quite a bit of help, and I can say I am extremely impressed and thankful for the help I have received from the FPC mailing list. Nikolay has helped me tremendously and has even modified PTCPAS to work with my application, something which I am also very grateful for. My current version of my old Turbo Pascal program now does amazing things that I would have never even dreamed of back in the day. Also I do not use IRC at all, not just #FPC, I do not use IRC. So I do not know Joanna. You asked for an opinion on your trasnscript so I read it and I am offering you an impartial third party opinion. I see your point and it's frustrating when you can't make something work that used to work on another system, but the people who have helped me have taken the time to explain ways to work around whatever the issues are.. yes I did need to re-write some of my code to make it work, but that was time well spend. It's not always easy to just change a system as complicated as FreePascal... but in any case, the IRC is not the place to discuss such things, and the ban message you received was to go get help in the forums. The forums make much more sense to have a discussion of this nature because you can't expect the development team to be on your schedule to chat with you live about it on IRC.. IRC is a TERRIBLE place to discuss complicated issues like getting your code to compile on FPC, it assumes that the people who could help you have nothing better to do than to sit there waiting to help you. I read the 'Evidence' and in that format it is very hard to follow, but it seems to me that Joanna was genuinely trying to help, and just wanted to see an example of the code. I think it is COMPLETELY unreasonable for you not to send some kind of example code that illustrates what you are trying to compile. If you are asking for someone to help you and they want information that will help them see what you are trying to do, then YOU comply and send them what they ask for, to not send some sample code is very rude. I do technical support and if one of my PAYING customers asked me to help with, something but refused to send me an example of the problem, then I would just tell them, sorry I can't help you if I don't have an example of this. You didn't need to send the whole application, that is no help at all, just a simple snippet that illustrates what you are trying to get working. Who knows maybe someone could help you with some workaround to make it work.. but without seeing the code you are making it difficult for people to help you. Also it seemed to me that when Joanna asked you who you were on the forums, it was so you could get help there, perhaps it was so she could continue the discussion with you there, I don't see any reason why you should take offense to her asking you for your user ID on the forums. The Ban message was: You have been kicked from #fpc by Joanna (please go get help in forums) I don't see that as being offensive... it's simply saying 'this is not the place for this, please pose your question on the forums' She obviously banned you so you would be forced to use the forum, which is the correct place to discuss such things, if she did not ban you, I guarantee you would have just logged right back in. So instead of coming to the forums and posting your questions, you went on this rampage about being banned. You were the one overreacting. In my opinion. IRC is completely the wrong place to discuss such things, as Nikolay mentioned, the FPC developers have other things to do that sit and chat on IRC, posting questions on the forums gives the people who could help you a chance to get to it on a schedule that works for them, it is unreasonable for you to expect them to be available to chat with you live to help you with your issues. If you want help getting something to work, you really need to provide some sample code. I can't understand why you would refuse to send some code.. just type out a few lines to illustrate what you are trying to compile and explain how it used to work on this other system. When people keep asking for information and you refuse to provide it, you can't expect them not to get frustrated with you. They don't owe you a thing, if you want their help, you should comply with their requests. I found it EXTREMELY rude of you not to provide some kind of sample code. I would NEVER post a request for help and then refuse to comply with such a simple request. And I must point out that requesting code to me seemed a genuine attempt to help you with your issue. Apr 11 11:15:25 Kroon can we see your code ? Apr 11 11:16:24 Joanna, no I find this alone a
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
Jacob Kroon via fpc-other said on Fri, 28 Apr 2023 23:31:02 +0200 >No, this is what it looks like to me, you are "Joanna". > >But I encourage everyone else to make their own conclusion given the >information provided. > >Jacob Come join us on #fpc-alt and ##fpc-alt. You'll be striking a blow for a helpful FreePascal environment. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other said on Fri, 28 Apr 2023 21:39:04 +0300 >Maybe #fpc-alt will become a better unofficial IRC channel? So far, >I've joined the #fpc-alt channel (without leaving #fpc), to support an >alternative channel as well, but I'm not very impressed, not only due >to the lack of people (only 3 people, including me), but also due to >the fact that there's not even a topic. Today at about 7PM New York time, prompted by a suggestion on ##fpc-alt, I added the following /topic to #fpc-alt: === Topic for #fpc-alt is: Ontopic list for Free Pascal. Offtopic channel is ##fpc-alt. Rules: Treat your fellow channel inhabitants like you'd like to be treated. === I also created a similar /topic for ##fpc-alt , which is the offtopic FPC channel. >I know growing a channel takes >time, Yes. Also, these are the first two IRC channels I've ever managed. I've managed mailing lists, but never IRC channels. So I have a lot to learn. My first choice would be for somebody like you or Tomas to be in charge of #fpc. My second choice would be for somebody like you or Tomas to take over #fpc-alt. The only reason I registered and run #fpc-alt is because people who are genuinely using or thinking about using FreePascal need a place they can listen, ask or help without fear of banning. I have lots of ambitions, but believe me, being king of an IRC channel isn't one of them. :-) [snip] > maybe #fpc-alt will grow a large >community as well, and will allow a more free and welcoming to >newcomers environment. I hope so, and I hope that later somebody more invested in FreePascal will take over #fpc-alt. > >And of course, there's also #lazarus, where moderation was taken up by >giantm (a Lazarus developer). Even though #lazarus has only about 20 people, they managed to give me some help on sound issues. > >So, plenty of alternative places to talk, if you're not happy about >#fpc. I wouldn't call it "plenty", because there are a few hundred on #fpc, and it's my opinion that a lot of them would be more forthcoming with help if they weren't worried about the possibility of being censured for giving the help using the wrong phrases. [snip] >Technically speaking, she didn't "hijack" the channel. She is the >channel owner, by virtue of being the first person to register it on >this IRC network. Speaking *only* of #fpc and not #pascal, my understanding of the events is: 1) Freenode's #fpc was an official FreePascal venue. 2) Freenode went bad. 3) Joanna registered #fpc on before anyone else. 4) Joanna banned 42 people and, in my informed opinion, made the rules all about her personal preferences. Smarter people than I could argue whether this constitutes "hijacking", but her taking channel name #fpc, a channel that used to be an official project channel, has caused, is continuing to cause, and will continue to cause in the future serious confusion. So I say to everyone, whether you're banned on #fpc or not, join us on #fpc-alt, and if you want, the offtopic ##fpc-alt. I'm not asking you to stop using #fpc, I'm just saying get on both and see which you like better. May the better channel win. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/29/23 01:05, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:49, Tomas Hajny via fpc-other wrote: On 28 April 2023 23:31:02 +0200, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:20, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:48, Jacob Kroon wrote: After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna". Are you joking? No, this is what it looks like to me, you are "Joanna". But I encourage everyone else to make their own conclusion given the information provided. Please, stop this witch hunting game. No, Nikolay isn"t Joanna. I thought that there was only one person throwing accusations without any evidence in this whole discussion, but it seems that I was wrong. :-( Please, be better at least by being able to admit your mistake. Asking Nikolay for an excusing you would be the right thing to do if you want to know my opinion No, I object to "without any evidence": I posted the evidence is here: https://justpaste.it/cfh0e If you take the time to read the logs, I *think* you will see that I was not being confrontational at all. If you think I am wrong, please explain where and why, What more do you want? I'm not Joanna and I didn't ban you. The channel is run by her, because none of the FPC developers (including me) have time. Therefore, it's not an official FPC channel. You're free to join the alternative channel #fpc-alt, or create your own. I called you confrontational, because you went on a crusade against her, on the mailing list, instead of trying to talk to her and cooperate and gain her trust. I understand it's annoying for new users to be interrogated. I don't think it's the right approach, but I don't have time to try to do a better job at moderation. However, 2 years ago, the channel on FreeNode was practically unmoderated, and was overrun by trolls and the experience was horrible for both new users as well as for old users. Now, at least, the existing users are fine and it's possible to discuss normal things about Pascal, but unfortunately new users have to jump through hoops, until they gain Joanna's trust. It's not exactly a dictatorship, it's probably better compared to a "visa regime". But 2 years ago, it was a burning trash can/landfill. I'm afraid that without moderation the channel will turn back to what it was back then. Moderating a channel is not that easy. I think the solution to no longer endorse #fpc as an official channel is fair. Since FPC developers don't have the time to moderate an official channel, anybody can join any unofficial channel that they want. If you don't like Joanna's policies, you can join #fpc-alt, make it a better and more welcoming to new users place and, if you're doing a better job it will eventually grow bigger than #fpc and most people will prefer it. Or, if you're unhappy with #fpc-alt's moderation, you can create another unofficial channel and do an even better job. Also, things like your issues are probably better discussed on a mailing list or forum anyway. On IRC, in a single channel, there can usually be only one discussion at a time, and it's necessary for the people in this moment to be interested in the topic. On a forum or mailing list, you can post a topic and wait for an answer and it doesn't interfere with people, who discuss other topics. On IRC, posting a question, while other people are talking about something else can be perceived at trying to hijack the conversation and shut it down. I'm not saying you were doing that, but it can be perceived that way, while that's less likely to happen in forums and mailing lists. I won't comment much on your accusations of me being Joanna's sock puppet account. All I'm going to say, it's at best a very bad judgement on your part, at worst - a very lame attempt at trolling. I won't necessarily assume malicious intent on your part, however it's bordering on being very suspicious. So let's pretend you never said it. Nikolay ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/28/23 23:49, Tomas Hajny via fpc-other wrote: On 28 April 2023 23:31:02 +0200, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:20, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:48, Jacob Kroon wrote: After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna". Are you joking? No, this is what it looks like to me, you are "Joanna". But I encourage everyone else to make their own conclusion given the information provided. Please, stop this witch hunting game. No, Nikolay isn"t Joanna. I thought that there was only one person throwing accusations without any evidence in this whole discussion, but it seems that I was wrong. :-( Please, be better at least by being able to admit your mistake. Asking Nikolay for an excusing you would be the right thing to do if you want to know my opinion No, I object to "without any evidence": I posted the evidence is here: https://justpaste.it/cfh0e If you take the time to read the logs, I *think* you will see that I was not being confrontational at all. If you think I am wrong, please explain where and why, Jacob ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 28 April 2023 23:31:02 +0200, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: >On 4/28/23 23:20, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: >> On 4/28/23 23:48, Jacob Kroon wrote: >>> After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the >>> #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == >>> "Joanna". >> >> Are you joking? > >No, this is what it looks like to me, you are "Joanna". > >But I encourage everyone else to make their own conclusion given the >information provided. Please, stop this witch hunting game. No, Nikolay isn"t Joanna. I thought that there was only one person throwing accusations without any evidence in this whole discussion, but it seems that I was wrong. :-( Please, be better at least by being able to admit your mistake. Asking Nikolay for an excusing you would be the right thing to do if you want to know my opinion Tomas ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 28-4-2023 23:20, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna". Are you joking? I actually smiled. Let's just say that what I see from Joanna doesn't resonate at all with knowing Nikolay IRL. ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/28/23 23:20, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:48, Jacob Kroon wrote: After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna". Are you joking? No, this is what it looks like to me, you are "Joanna". But I encourage everyone else to make their own conclusion given the information provided. Jacob ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/28/23 23:48, Jacob Kroon wrote: After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna". Are you joking? Nikolay ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/28/23 20:39, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: On 4/26/23 21:27, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: On 4/26/23 13:58, HSN via fpc-other wrote: Hi Nickolay Thanks for helping explain. I imagine that his new channel is now thriving with the list of excellent prospects in the ban list that I provided. It’s always good to see a new irc channel get off to a good start with some talented people on board ;) ^^^ The comment above says it all. I understand why no fpc developer wants to be associated with #fpc. This is not true. The *real* reason is that none of the current FPC developers has the time and dedication to moderate an IRC channel. Note that there are two people from the FPC team (me and Karoly) who were given moderator access by Joanna, who registered the channel. That's how it became an official channel. However, unfortunately, it turned out that in practice neither me, nor Karoly has the time to moderate the channel, so it's de facto not moderated by the FPC team. That was the reason for the decision to no longer list it as an "official" channel. Note that if someone from the FPC team (e.g. fpk, oliebol, Tomas Hajny, etc.) wants to moderate the channel, I will give them access. However, I will not remove Joanna's access, because this will make the channel effectively unmoderated and we saw how well that worked in 2020 on freenode, when the channel was turned into a burning trash can by trolls and it was impossible to talk about Pascal at all. Back then, I had to intervene and ban a few people, because the FPC moderators back then weren't doing their job, due to lack of time. Now, at least, there is a group of people, who talk about Pascal. In fact, I looked at the channel logs. There were people (not Joanna!), who cheered after your ban. Apparently people in the channel were discussing something else (Pascal-related) and overall weren't very interested in talking about using C-style bitwise operators in Pascal. I'm sorry to say that, but when there are people, who are happy about your ban, this shows it's not just Joanna, but also others, so maybe #fpc was not the best place to discuss your problem anyway and it's good that you found help on the mailing lists. Maybe a ban was an overreaction, but you probably wouldn't have found much help on the channel anyway. To be fair, I will say that there were also people, who questioned your ban, and I probably wouldn't have banned you, if I were there, moderating the channel (I'm online, but most of time I'm afk, just recording logs). However, there's a majority of people, who are happy with Joanna's moderation and are not disgruntled and eager to leave. Maybe #fpc-alt will become a better unofficial IRC channel? So far, I've joined the #fpc-alt channel (without leaving #fpc), to support an alternative channel as well, but I'm not very impressed, not only due to the lack of people (only 3 people, including me), but also due to the fact that there's not even a topic. I know growing a channel takes time, but if you're serious about providing an alternative channel, you should at least set the topic. It doesn't take that much effort. Of course, there are only first impressions, and in the long term, they can turn out to be wrong, and maybe #fpc-alt will grow a large community as well, and will allow a more free and welcoming to newcomers environment. And of course, there's also #lazarus, where moderation was taken up by giantm (a Lazarus developer). So, plenty of alternative places to talk, if you're not happy about #fpc. As already mentioned, better to use the mailing list for technical questions. Sure! The mailing lists are great! I'm happy to hear that they are working for you! I think the bigger problem is that #pascal, which is more general, has *also* been hijacked by "Joanna". Technically speaking, she didn't "hijack" the channel. She is the channel owner, by virtue of being the first person to register it on this IRC network. That's how IRC works. I don't think #pascal was ever an official FPC channel. In fact, I got founder access there too, just by asking her nicely. Many times, this approach works much better, compared to the confrontational approach. Once again, if someone wants to moderate the channel, I can give them access to #pascal. The only condition is, it needs to be someone trusted, from the FPC community, and not some newcomer (we're talking channel operator access here). I have uploaded all the #fpc logs I have before I got banned here: https://justpaste.it/cfh0e (I am "kroon" in the logs) In short, the conversation starts with me talking to "nickysn", Nikolay Nikolov, the person I am replying to in this email, and after a while he gets silent, and user "Joanna" joins and starts interrogating me. I don't think anyone who reads those logs would consider me "confrontational". After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/26/23 21:27, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: On 4/26/23 13:58, HSN via fpc-other wrote: Hi Nickolay Thanks for helping explain. I imagine that his new channel is now thriving with the list of excellent prospects in the ban list that I provided. It’s always good to see a new irc channel get off to a good start with some talented people on board ;) ^^^ The comment above says it all. I understand why no fpc developer wants to be associated with #fpc. This is not true. The *real* reason is that none of the current FPC developers has the time and dedication to moderate an IRC channel. Note that there are two people from the FPC team (me and Karoly) who were given moderator access by Joanna, who registered the channel. That's how it became an official channel. However, unfortunately, it turned out that in practice neither me, nor Karoly has the time to moderate the channel, so it's de facto not moderated by the FPC team. That was the reason for the decision to no longer list it as an "official" channel. Note that if someone from the FPC team (e.g. fpk, oliebol, Tomas Hajny, etc.) wants to moderate the channel, I will give them access. However, I will not remove Joanna's access, because this will make the channel effectively unmoderated and we saw how well that worked in 2020 on freenode, when the channel was turned into a burning trash can by trolls and it was impossible to talk about Pascal at all. Back then, I had to intervene and ban a few people, because the FPC moderators back then weren't doing their job, due to lack of time. Now, at least, there is a group of people, who talk about Pascal. In fact, I looked at the channel logs. There were people (not Joanna!), who cheered after your ban. Apparently people in the channel were discussing something else (Pascal-related) and overall weren't very interested in talking about using C-style bitwise operators in Pascal. I'm sorry to say that, but when there are people, who are happy about your ban, this shows it's not just Joanna, but also others, so maybe #fpc was not the best place to discuss your problem anyway and it's good that you found help on the mailing lists. Maybe a ban was an overreaction, but you probably wouldn't have found much help on the channel anyway. To be fair, I will say that there were also people, who questioned your ban, and I probably wouldn't have banned you, if I were there, moderating the channel (I'm online, but most of time I'm afk, just recording logs). However, there's a majority of people, who are happy with Joanna's moderation and are not disgruntled and eager to leave. Maybe #fpc-alt will become a better unofficial IRC channel? So far, I've joined the #fpc-alt channel (without leaving #fpc), to support an alternative channel as well, but I'm not very impressed, not only due to the lack of people (only 3 people, including me), but also due to the fact that there's not even a topic. I know growing a channel takes time, but if you're serious about providing an alternative channel, you should at least set the topic. It doesn't take that much effort. Of course, there are only first impressions, and in the long term, they can turn out to be wrong, and maybe #fpc-alt will grow a large community as well, and will allow a more free and welcoming to newcomers environment. And of course, there's also #lazarus, where moderation was taken up by giantm (a Lazarus developer). So, plenty of alternative places to talk, if you're not happy about #fpc. As already mentioned, better to use the mailing list for technical questions. Sure! The mailing lists are great! I'm happy to hear that they are working for you! I think the bigger problem is that #pascal, which is more general, has *also* been hijacked by "Joanna". Technically speaking, she didn't "hijack" the channel. She is the channel owner, by virtue of being the first person to register it on this IRC network. That's how IRC works. I don't think #pascal was ever an official FPC channel. In fact, I got founder access there too, just by asking her nicely. Many times, this approach works much better, compared to the confrontational approach. Once again, if someone wants to moderate the channel, I can give them access to #pascal. The only condition is, it needs to be someone trusted, from the FPC community, and not some newcomer (we're talking channel operator access here). Best regards, Nikolay Jacob ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/27/23 10:08 AM, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: And frankly, although "Joanna" doesn't actually represent fpc development in any way, the encounter with him/her/it has not been in favor of us contributing back to fpc, I'm sorry to say. FWIW: one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole barrel... -- NOTE: No off-list assistance is given without prior approval. *Please keep mailing list traffic on the list where it belongs!* ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/27/23 01:07, HSN via fpc-other wrote: Thank you so much for your concerns Jacob, advocating for the “rights” of pascal developers. That is so kind of you. How long have you been here? A month? Now that definitely takes dedication.. Please take your “help” elsewhere.The people in the channels that I manage don’t want you around can you guess why? Don’t bother trying to sneak in under a new name to spy on us either. I’ve made a private channel for all discussions of any significance . You have helped rid #fpc of two useless lurkers who never contributed anything and I commend you for that. ^^^ This sounds like paranoia to me. Now let’s have a look at your non existent code shall we? Please tell the nice people here about that Fpc not using “&” Instead of “and” problem of yours and that precious “code“ that can’t be defiled by being fixed to work properly with fpc... The code we are using is built with an old Pascal compiler called Pascal/MT+, its an old compiler from around 1983. Again, the code is proprietary, I don't own it, the company I work for does, so I cannot just simply upload it to some public place. If "Joanna" would bother to look in the manual here http://www.cpm.z80.de/manuals/MTplusMan.pdf and look on page 40, "4.3 Logical Expressions", him/her/it would see that the compiler uses C-style operators, like "&", for doing bitwise operations. There are more incompatibilities compared to what fpc can currently parse, like the placement of the "external" keyword, the syntax for units (Pascal/MT+ calls them "modules"), the fact that local variables are *not* allocated on the stack by default, etc. We are considering patching fpc to support a "Pascal/MT+" mode, but so far we've made good enough progress by automatically converting the sources with perl scripts to a dialect of Pascal that fpc can parse. And frankly, although "Joanna" doesn't actually represent fpc development in any way, the encounter with him/her/it has not been in favor of us contributing back to fpc, I'm sorry to say. Jacob ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
Thank you so much for your concerns Jacob, advocating for the “rights” of pascal developers. That is so kind of you. How long have you been here? A month? Now that definitely takes dedication.. Please take your “help” elsewhere.The people in the channels that I manage don’t want you around can you guess why? Don’t bother trying to sneak in under a new name to spy on us either. I’ve made a private channel for all discussions of any significance . You have helped rid #fpc of two useless lurkers who never contributed anything and I commend you for that. Now let’s have a look at your non existent code shall we? Please tell the nice people here about that Fpc not using “&” Instead of “and” problem of yours and that precious “code“ that can’t be defiled by being fixed to work properly with fpc...___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/26/23 13:58, HSN via fpc-other wrote: Hi Nickolay Thanks for helping explain. I imagine that his new channel is now thriving with the list of excellent prospects in the ban list that I provided. It’s always good to see a new irc channel get off to a good start with some talented people on board ;) ^^^ The comment above says it all. I understand why no fpc developer wants to be associated with #fpc. As already mentioned, better to use the mailing list for technical questions. I think the bigger problem is that #pascal, which is more general, has *also* been hijacked by "Joanna". Jacob ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no.
On 4/23/23 12:36, wkitty42--- via fpc-other wrote: I had thought that Joanna meant it when she said she'd step down from her operator status at #fpc to allow for somebody else to take that over, and I thought we were all going to be happy, but obviously I was wrong. i didn't see her say that she was stepping down... what i saw was her saying that she was giving up whatever rights she thought she had to the public and accessible _ban list_... I understood this as, she's offering the ban list, so you can invite these people to the new channel #fpc-alt, if you believe they've been banned unjustly. Nikolay ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no.
On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 05:36:01AM -0400, wkitty42--- via fpc-other wrote: > [...] > > the fact that she is using statements made elsewhere to justify her actions > in some IRC channels that she moderates raises quite a number of red > flags... red flags that should maybe be taken to that IRC network's admins > if anyone cares to really do something about them... Unfortunately, that is not possible, as per libera.chat's network policy (which I consider a net benefit in general -- but as with free speech, there's some nasty side effects to be had). Check out https://paste.debian.net/plain/1273023 for one such failed attempt in particular. The tl;dr version: Joanna interrogates a new user (disso_peach) how/why they were interested in fpc. disso_peach (afaiui) states they are developing a new OS and would like to port fpc to it. After that particular strand of conversation dies down, Joanna takes a while of silence to ban disso_peach ([01:00:45]). I (colo) inquire why disso_peach had been banned, and the reson given reads "[15:21:40] He was trying to discredit our community". Joanna then begins to interrogate me in her usual fashion, and I endure the public ordeal to make my case against her abuse of power. Two IRC network operators present in the channel (Boohumbug and jess-o-lantern) come to the conclusion that "[16:28:39] that you're running the channel quite toxicly", and "[16:28:41] _YOU_ are the common denominator in this." (both adressing Joanna with that). They continue and effectively conclude with "[16:29:42] there's nothing staff can or should do about that, channels are free to run themselves how they want, but my opinion is you're running this channel with unnecessary and arbitrary use of power" -- tl;dr fin -- Therefore, any change regarding #fpc and its moderation style/personnel will have to originate from those who have power over the *channel*, not from those with who have power over the *network* hosting it. -- with best regards: - Johannes Truschnigg ( johan...@truschnigg.info ) signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no.
On 4/22/23 10:16 PM, Steve Litt via fpc-other wrote: Hi all, I was kick-banned from #pascal . See the following: * ChanServ gives channel operator status to Joanna * Joanna sets ban on $a:Stevelitt * You have been kicked from #pascal by Joanna (slander and harrassment) I said nothing about Joanna on #irc or #pascal, so she's basing it on what I said on fpc-other. You guys have read what I said. Did that sound like slander and harassment to you? To me it sounded like an honest critique of her moderation practices. she apparently needs a lesson in English and law... none of what i have seen that you have written qualifies, by definition, as slander and certainly not harassment... from the Oxford Dictionary: "slander: somebody/something to make a false spoken statement about somebody that is intended to damage the good opinion that people have of them." i've seen no false statements made about her. from the Oxford Dictionary: "harassment: 1. the act of annoying or worrying somebody by putting pressure on them or saying or doing unpleasant things to them. 2. the act of making repeated attacks on an enemy." i've seen no "pressure" being put on her, no repeated attacks, and certainly nothing defining her as an "enemy"... IANAL but it certainly appears that she is reaching quite far to justify her actions... if anything, it would appear that she is slandering you by her statement that you are slandering and harassing her... I had thought that Joanna meant it when she said she'd step down from her operator status at #fpc to allow for somebody else to take that over, and I thought we were all going to be happy, but obviously I was wrong. i didn't see her say that she was stepping down... what i saw was her saying that she was giving up whatever rights she thought she had to the public and accessible _ban list_... the fact that she is using statements made elsewhere to justify her actions in some IRC channels that she moderates raises quite a number of red flags... red flags that should maybe be taken to that IRC network's admins if anyone cares to really do something about them... ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no.
Good day to you all!
On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 07:48:35AM +0200, Tomas Hajny via fpc-other wrote:
> On 23 April 2023 04:16:41 +0200, Steve Litt via fpc-other
> wrote:
> [...]
> Indeed; it's pure revenge. :-( I believe that you might contact the server
> administrators and ask them if they consider this an acceptable behaviour.
The libera.chat network operators actually had their eyes on the #fpc and
#lazarus channels a while back (before I had noticed - and later felt - the
problem with Joanna's excessive use of moderation powers myself... please
check the forum thread at [0] and the transcript at [1] in particular (esp.
around the [17:33:28] timestamp) for details).
However, due to network policy, they cannot and will not meaningfully
interfere.
I approached one of those operators in private after they had gathered some
information concerning the situation in channels managed by Joanna, and one of
them told me (direct quote):
"We wish there was something we could do but we have a hands off policy
unless network policies are being violated and in this case they are not :("
They also told me that they were "frustrated at the whole siutation", which I
can *very* much relate to.
The only ones who can fix the situation are those who can exercise the same or
more powers over the channel(s) as/than Joanna can. For #fpc, those persons'
registered nicknames are, as far as I gather from Chanserv:
- arahael
- nickysn
- Chain|Q
> >I had thought that Joanna meant it when she said she'd step down from her
> >operator status at #fpc to allow for somebody else to take that over, and I
> >thought we were all going to be happy, but obviously I was wrong.
>
> I believe that you misinterpreted her statement. If I understand it
> correctly, she just wrote that somebody could invite the banned people to a
> different channel, but she never considered to free her supposed kingdom.
> :-(
Turns out I had initially misinterpreted her statement to the mailing list in
that very same way as well, but the follow-up in her usual, defiant tone
cleared things up very well...
It's a pity this channel should go to waste because of its mad ruler.
Thankfully, #lazarus has apparently been saved in the meantime.
> >I suggest the FPC project remove channel #fpc from
> >https://wiki.freepascal.org/FPC_IRC_channel . There's no need to subject
> >any FPC using people or people who want to use FPC to the kind of
> >moderation that now happens on #fpc. Like it or not, the extreme moderation
> >practices on #fpc reflect very badly on the FPC project.
>
> I would think that the disclaimer added to those pages should be sufficient?
If it were my decision, I would not endorse any of the channels subject to
Joanna's moderation even by mentioning. But then again I believe to have been
treated _very_ unfairly by her in the past (again, see [0]), so I'm probably
not the best advisor to rely on in the matter ;)
Of course, I will continue using both fpc and lazarus, no matter what comes of
this little tragedy. Both projects are of much too awesome utility to me to
leave them behind just because of some toxic individual's unjust rule over
some project-adjacent IRC property.
[0]: https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,62584.0.html
[1]: https://paste.debian.net/plainh/fdc31280
--
with best regards:
- Johannes Truschnigg ( johan...@truschnigg.info )
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Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no.
On 23 April 2023 04:16:41 +0200, Steve Litt via fpc-other
wrote:
Hi wrote,
.
.
>I said nothing about Joanna on #irc or #pascal, so she's basing it on
>what I said on fpc-other. You guys have read what I said. Did that
>sound like slander and harassment to you? To me it sounded like an
>honest critique of her moderation practices.
Indeed; it's pure revenge. :-( I believe that you might contact the server
administrators and ask them if they consider this an acceptable behaviour.
>I had thought that Joanna meant it when she said she'd step down from
>her operator status at #fpc to allow for somebody else to take that
>over, and I thought we were all going to be happy, but obviously I was
>wrong.
I believe that you misinterpreted her statement. If I understand it correctly,
she just wrote that somebody could invite the banned people to a different
channel, but she never considered to free her supposed kingdom. :-(
.
.
>I suggest the FPC project remove channel #fpc from
>https://wiki.freepascal.org/FPC_IRC_channel . There's no need to
>subject any FPC using people or people who want to use FPC to the kind
>of moderation that now happens on #fpc. Like it or not, the extreme
>moderation practices on #fpc reflect very badly on the FPC project.
I would think that the disclaimer added to those pages should be sufficient?
>Speaking for myself, I'll continue using Lazarus, but I'm setting aside
>my plans to start doing more new construction of regular executables
>using Free Pascal.
Well, it's up to you whether and how you use FPC, but deciding it depending on
somebody's behaviour on an IRC channel is kind of similar thinking to Joanna's
actions ("since somebody wrote something somewhere, I'll do something somewhere
else")...
Tomas
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