Re: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[David Creamer]

In my opinion, the Character Designer should have From Style rather than
As Is. 
The As Is setting impedes experimentation with the settings.
 
I agree with Matt: I teach never to edit character tags with text selected.
There is a method to do it safely with text selected, but it requires more
clicks of the mouse.
 
David Creamer
IDEAS Training
 http://www.ideastraining.com http://www.ideastraining.com
Adobe Authorized Instructor  Certified Expert since 1995
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RE: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[Craig Ede]

Hey Matt,

I think some of the confusion on this topic stems from a misunderstanding about 
what As-Is means. It doesn't mean as the paragraph is defined but instead 
means at the current setting as it sits in the file.” That current setting can 
be different that the setting for the current paragraph tag. It may be the 
current setting because you had a previous character tag define the size. In 
that case applying a character tag with an As-Is size setting will result in 
no change in the (incorrect) size of the text.

I agree with you about the dangers of updating within a text flow, but it's not 
impossible to do that reliably. The scenario described below uses FM11, but I'm 
pretty sure FM10 (and below) allow the same thing and it also allows 
more-or-less global changing of a wrong text size within a file (see below for 
the caveat).

If you call up the Character Designer from within a text flow by using Ctrl-D 
and then select your named Character Tag from the drop down list the interface 
shows only those elements the Char Tag is set to change (for example: Bold and 
everything else As-Is.)

Selecting another characteristic and hitting Update All then applies only that 
new selection and the Bold. To all occurrences of the tag. You can check this 
by again doing a Ctrl-D and selecting the same Character Tag from the drop down 
list.

I've had to do this a lot lately in converting a series of Word files to a FM 
template. For some reason Bold and Italic text in the Word doc comes over as 12 
pt text within a 10.5 pt Body Text paragraph format even though the char 
formats don't touch the text size. Redefining the Bold and Italic char formats 
to include setting the text to 10.5, Updating All and then immediately setting 
them back to As-Is (so they again only affect the bolding or italicizing) and 
again Updating All gets me the result I need without having to find each 
occurrence of the char tag, manually resetting the text to Default Font and 
then applying the clean char tag. But here's the caveat: If you have paragraph 
formats that have different point sizes your reset to the chosen point size 
will affect those as well. Those will have to be hunted down and changed via 
the manual method of Default Font and clean tag application. Luckily in the 
case of my Word docs that is a rare occurrence.

One thing we should all be learning from this is that you should never apply a 
character tag that sets the font size unless it really needs to do that. In 
those cases I put the point size in the Char Tag name so that it is clear what 
it is doing. Oh yeah, and don't overlay char tags. Only the final one will be 
shown as a named tag, but the effects of previous tags will affect the text in 
ways that might baffle who think the text ought not to have the previously 
applied characteristics. Instead use a tag that names all the elements you want 
to change (like Bold-Italic) and use that instead.

Thanks.

Craig
Subject: Re: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't
From: m...@mattrsullivan.com
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 22:48:01 -0800
To: david.da...@invensys.com
CC: framers@lists.frameusers.com

Hi David, 
I agree with your thoughts on the subject, but I believe the engineers would 
call this as designed…
I know it could be better, but given that the Character Designer hasn't changed 
since, well, ever.
As such, I'm betting it's not at the top of the To-Do list for the engineers.














-Matt
Matt R. Sullivan co-author Publishing Fundamentals: Unstructured FrameMaker 11 
P: 714.798.7596 | C: 714.585.2335 | m...@mattrsullivan.com @mattrsullivan 
LinkedIn facebook mattrsullivan.com 


On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:53 AM, Davis, David david.da...@invensys.com 
wrote:Cheers Matt,Yes I totally agree with your ‘bottom line’ –But surely this 
is a bug? The Character Designer dialog box (or “pod” as they seem to want to 
call it now) just simply isn’t behaving consistently and doing what it says it 
does.There is nothing I can see about this issue in the user 
docshttp://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WSB9594AD8-4282-4fbe-AE5A-3A3A4C9CC813.html
 David  From: Matt Sullivan [mailto:m...@mattrsullivan.com] 
Sent: 20 November 2013 03:58

Bottom line: Never update a character tag with your cursor in the text flow. 
Unless you like screwed up tags.

 *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached 
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Re: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[Matt Sullivan]

Hi David,I agree with your thoughts on the subject, but I believe the engineers would call this "as designed"…I know it could be better, but given that the Character Designer hasn't changed since, well, ever.As such, I'm betting it's not at the top of the To-Do list for the engineers.
-MattMatt R. Sullivanco-authorPublishing Fundamentals: Unstructured FrameMaker 11P:714.798.7596 |C:714.585.2335 |m...@mattrsullivan.com@mattrsullivanLinkedInfacebookmattrsullivan.com

On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:53 AM, "Davis, David" david.da...@invensys.com wrote:Cheers Matt,Yes I totally agree with your ‘bottom line’ –But surely this is a bug? The Character Designer dialog box (or “pod” as they seem to want to call it now) just simply isn’t behaving consistently and doing what it says it does.There is nothing I can see about this issue in the user docshttp://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WSB9594AD8-4282-4fbe-AE5A-3A3A4C9CC813.htmlDavidFrom:Matt Sullivan [mailto:matt@mattrsullivan.com]Sent:20 November 2013 03:58Bottom line: Never update a character tag with your cursor in the text flow. Unless you like screwed up tags.*** Confidentiality Notice:This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys plc, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com.You may contact Invensys plc on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates).___You are currently subscribed to framers as m...@mattrsullivan.com.Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.To unsubscribe send a blank email toframers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.comor visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/matt%40mattrsullivan.comSend administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visithttp://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.___


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RE: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[Davis, David]

Cheers Matt,
Yes I totally agree with your 'bottom line' -
But surely this is a bug? The Character Designer dialog box (or pod as they 
seem to want to call it now) just simply isn't behaving consistently and doing 
what it says it does.
There is nothing I can see about this issue in the user docs
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WSB9594AD8-4282-4fbe-AE5A-3A3A4C9CC813.html

David


From: Matt Sullivan [mailto:m...@mattrsullivan.com]
Sent: 20 November 2013 03:58

Bottom line: Never update a character tag with your cursor in the text flow. 
Unless you like screwed up tags.





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notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from 
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contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys 
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Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 
7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within 
the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com.


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Subject: Re: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[Wim Hooghwinkel - idtp]

Try this one: while you're in the character designer press Shift+F8. 

All values will be set to As Is. You can modify the format and apply - or 
update all.

But Matt is right: when you first click 'Apply', all current values of the 
selected text will be shown and if you next click 'update all' , these values 
will be stored. So the correct order of working is, even with text selected, 
press Shift+F8, make only the necessary changes and click 'Update All', not 
apply.

You can test this by selecting some text, apply a character format, press 
Shift+F8 and then without modifying choose 'Update All'. Next time you apply 
the same format nothing happens: all is set to as is.

But I second Matts workflow tip: click outside the text flow to create or 
modify character tags. Only then you'll be sure to get what you want.  

Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
 
Wim Hooghwinkel


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Subject: Re: Character Tag "As Is" setting--isn't

[Wim Hooghwinkel - idtp]

Try this one: while you're in the character designer press Shift+F8. 

All values will be set to As Is. You can modify the format and apply - or 
update all.

But Matt is right: when you first click 'Apply', all current values of the 
selected text will be shown and if you next click 'update all' , these values 
will be stored. So the correct order of working is, even with text selected, 
press Shift+F8, make only the necessary changes and click 'Update All', not 
apply.

You can test this by selecting some text, apply a character format, press 
Shift+F8 and then without modifying choose 'Update All'. Next time you apply 
the same format nothing happens: all is set to as is.

But I second Matts workflow tip: click outside the text flow to create or 
modify character tags. Only then you'll be sure to get what you want.  

Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,

Wim Hooghwinkel


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RE: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[Davis, David]

This issue that Beverly has run into has been the bane of my life several times 
now. 
The As Is thing in Character Styles just doesn't work for font size if it's 
ever been applied to any existing paragraph style - instead it keeps applying 
the font size of that paragraph.
The only way I've been able to get these kind of character styles to work (i.e. 
ones which just change the font or colour of text, without changing font size) 
is to create them from scratch when the cursor isn't currently within any 
existing paragraph style - otherwise you're lumbered with the wrong font size.

David


Message: 3
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 17:31:04 -0500
From: Fred Ridder docu...@hotmail.com
To: Beverly Robinson beverly_robin...@datacard.com,
framers@lists.frameusers.com framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't
Message-ID: bay171-w28c10933876ab50261f6b5ba...@phx.gbl
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

You've identified one of the long-standing inconsistencies in the FrameMaker 
UI.  In the Size box of the Character Designer dialog, the as is state is 
indicated by emptiness. Same with Spread and Stretch. All three of these 
properties allow a continuous range of values rather than being picked from a 
finite list, and I suspect that this fact complicated the ability to explicitly 
indicate As Is in the box for some reason. 

If you have already applied the Hyperlink tag to anything when it had a 
specified size of 11 pt, that size is now a property of the text. It will not 
change when you redefine the character format of the tag to be as is because 
the as is size is 11 pt. If the character tag is applied within the 
cross-reference format, I believe you'll need to reinsert the cross-reference 
to get the oversize characters to revert to the underlying paragraph 
specification for your table footnote. 

-Fred Ridder 

From: beverly_robin...@datacard.com
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:05:22 -0600
Subject: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

FrameMaker 10.0.2.419 on Windows 7 64-bit My template has a  character tag, 
Hyperlink, that makes text blue. The Size setting had been at 11 pt, the size 
for Body paragraphs. Recently I needed to use the tag in a cross-reference in a 
table footnote. Table footnotes are 9 pt. So I changed the Size setting to As 
Is but:? After clicking As Is, the Size control doesn?t say ?As 
Is??it?s blank.? Hyperlink text in table footnotes is larger than 9 pt. 
FrameMaker help says nothing about this anomaly and I didn?t see anything 
similar in the first 5 pages on the FrameMaker user forum. Has anyone else run 
into this? Found a solution? Thanks for your help,Beverly
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7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within 
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Re: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[Matt Sullivan]

Sorry David, but it's your workflow that's tripping you up.I'm sure there are other methods, but here's how I've consistently and confidently defined/updated character tags for many years:Click outside the text flowOpen the Character DesignerChoose your tag from the drop down menuDefine properties as neededIf a point size, or any other unwanted property is defined, set it to As Is, and hit Update All.From now on, it'll work as expected. For any bolloxed formatting, reset to the Default ParaTag, and reapply the Character Tag.But... if you try to change properties of the character tag while your cursor is in a text flow, the Character Designer will display all values for all properties at that position in the text. Thus, if you change something and hit Update All, it'll take you at your word, and replace all your lovely As Is properties with actual values.Bottom line: Never update a character tag with your cursor in the text flow. Unless you like screwed up tags.
-MattMatt R. Sullivanco-authorPublishing Fundamentals: Unstructured FrameMaker 11P:714.798.7596 |C:714.585.2335 |m...@mattrsullivan.com@mattrsullivanLinkedInfacebookmattrsullivan.com

On Nov 19, 2013, at 1:56 AM, "Davis, David" david.da...@invensys.com wrote:This issue that Beverly has run into has been the bane of my life several times now. The "As Is" thing in Character Styles just doesn't work for font size if it's ever been applied to any existing paragraph style - instead it keeps applying the font size of that paragraph.The only way I've been able to get these kind of character styles to work (i.e. ones which just change the font or colour of text, without changing font size) is to create them from scratch when the cursor isn't currently within any existing paragraph style - otherwise you're lumbered with the wrong font size.DavidMessage: 3Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 17:31:04 -0500From: Fred Ridder docu...@hotmail.comTo: Beverly Robinson beverly_robin...@datacard.com,	"framers@lists.frameusers.com" framers@lists.frameusers.comSubject: RE: Character Tag "As Is" setting--isn'tMessage-ID: bay171-w28c10933876ab50261f6b5ba...@phx.gblContent-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"You've identified one of the long-standing inconsistencies in the FrameMaker UI. In the Size box of the Character Designer dialog, the "as is" state is indicated by emptiness. Same with Spread and Stretch. All three of these properties allow a continuous range of values rather than being picked from a finite list, and I suspect that this fact complicated the ability to explicitly indicate "As Is" in the box for some reason. If you have already applied the Hyperlink tag to anything when it had a specified size of 11 pt, that size is now a property of the text. It will not change when you redefine the character format of the tag to be "as is" because the "as is" size is 11 pt. If the character tag is applied within the cross-reference format, I believe you'll need to reinsert the cross-reference to get the oversize characters to revert to the underlying paragraph specification for your table footnote. -Fred Ridder From: beverly_robin...@datacard.comTo: framers@lists.frameusers.comDate: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:05:22 -0600Subject: Character Tag "As Is" setting--isn'tFrameMaker 10.0.2.419 on Windows 7 64-bit My template has a character tag, Hyperlink, that makes text blue. The Size setting had been at 11 pt, the size for Body paragraphs. Recently I needed to use the tag in a cross-reference in a table footnote. Table footnotes are 9 pt. So I changed the Size setting to As Is but:? After clicking As Is, the Size control doesn?t say ?As Is??it?s blank.? Hyperlink text in table footnotes is larger than 9 pt. FrameMaker help says nothing about this anomaly and I didn?t see anything similar in the first 5 pages on the FrameMaker user forum. Has anyone else run into this? Found a solution? Thanks for your help,Beverly___You are currently subscribed to framers as docu...@hotmail.com.Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.To unsubscribe send a blank email toframers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.comor visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/docudoc%40hotmail.comSend administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visithttp://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. 		 	 		 -- next part --An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers/attachments/20131113/2862138e/attachment-0001.html--*** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, 

Re: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[Shmuel Wolfson]

This is a very old FrameMaker bug. When you set everything to As Is, the 
text size doesn't show As Is, but it does function as As Is. It's just a 
display problem.


Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 14-Nov-13 12:05 AM, Beverly Robinson wrote:


FrameMaker 10.0.2.419 on Windows 7 64-bit

My template has a character tag, Hyperlink, that makes text blue. The 
Size setting had been at 11 pt, the size for Body paragraphs. Recently 
I needed to use the tag in a cross-reference in a table footnote. 
Table footnotes are 9 pt. So I changed the Size setting to As Is but:


·After clicking As Is, the Size control doesn’t say “As Is”—it’s blank.

·Hyperlink text in table footnotes is larger than 9 pt.

FrameMaker help says nothing about this anomaly and I didn’t see 
anything similar in the first 5 pages on the FrameMaker user forum.


Has anyone else run into this? Found a solution?

Thanks for your help,

Beverly



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RE: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[Beverly Robinson]

As often is the case, Fred came through with a thorough, understandable 
explanation and the process for fixing my problem. Thanks, Fred-and others who 
responded on- and off-list.

Beverly

From: Fred Ridder [mailto:docu...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 4:31 PM
To: Beverly Robinson; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

You've identified one of the long-standing inconsistencies in the FrameMaker 
UI.  In the Size box of the Character Designer dialog, the as is state is 
indicated by emptiness. Same with Spread and Stretch. All three of these 
properties allow a continuous range of values rather than being picked from a 
finite list, and I suspect that this fact complicated the ability to explicitly 
indicate As Is in the box for some reason.

If you have already applied the Hyperlink tag to anything when it had a 
specified size of 11 pt, that size is now a property of the text. It will not 
change when you redefine the character format of the tag to be as is because 
the as is size is 11 pt. If the character tag is applied within the 
cross-reference format, I believe you'll need to reinsert the cross-reference 
to get the oversize characters to revert to the underlying paragraph 
specification for your table footnote.

-Fred Ridder

From: beverly_robin...@datacard.commailto:beverly_robin...@datacard.com
To: framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:05:22 -0600
Subject: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't
FrameMaker 10.0.2.419 on Windows 7 64-bit

My template has a  character tag, Hyperlink, that makes text blue. The Size 
setting had been at 11 pt, the size for Body paragraphs. Recently I needed to 
use the tag in a cross-reference in a table footnote. Table footnotes are 9 pt. 
So I changed the Size setting to As Is but:
* After clicking As Is, the Size control doesn't say As Is-it's blank.
* Hyperlink text in table footnotes is larger than 9 pt.

FrameMaker help says nothing about this anomaly and I didn't see anything 
similar in the first 5 pages on the FrameMaker user forum.

Has anyone else run into this? Found a solution?

Thanks for your help,
Beverly

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Re: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[Heiko Haida]

 

Well, it is extremely useful to have character format definitions that
leave certain issues undefined. 

The bug (old, indeed) is, that the as is used here is the same as is
that is used for redefining formats (like for para or table formats). 

It is necessary to keep this in mind when working with character
formats. You always have to put everything in that is intended to be
used. 

My advice: Make character formats as simple as possible, by defining
only the new color (here = Blue), or a new font size, or new weight. The
less properties are defined the better the format can be used. 

Best regards - 

Tino H. Haida, Berlin 

Shmuel Wolfson: 

 This is a very old FrameMaker bug. When you set everything to As Is, the 
 text size doesn't show As Is, but it does function as As Is. It's just a 
 display problem.
 
 Regards,
 Shmuel Wolfson
 Technical Writer
 052-763-7133
 
 On 14-Nov-13 12:05 AM, Beverly Robinson wrote:
 
 FrameMaker 10.0.2.419 on Windows 7 64-bit My template has a character tag, 
 Hyperlink, that makes text blue. The Size setting had been at 11 pt, the 
 size for Body paragraphs. Recently I needed to use the tag in a 
 cross-reference in a table footnote. Table footnotes are 9 pt. So I changed 
 the Size setting to As Is but: ·After clicking As Is, the Size control 
 doesn't say As Is--it's blank. ·Hyperlink text in table footnotes is 
 larger than 9 pt. FrameMaker help says nothing about this anomaly and I 
 didn't see anything similar in the first 5 pages on the FrameMaker user 
 forum. Has anyone else run into this? Found a solution? Thanks for your 
 help, Beverly ___ You are 
 currently subscribed to framers as shmue...@gmail.com. Send list messages to 
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RE: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

[Fred Ridder]

You've identified one of the long-standing inconsistencies in the FrameMaker 
UI.  In the Size box of the Character Designer dialog, the as is state is 
indicated by emptiness. Same with Spread and Stretch. All three of these 
properties allow a continuous range of values rather than being picked from a 
finite list, and I suspect that this fact complicated the ability to explicitly 
indicate As Is in the box for some reason. 

If you have already applied the Hyperlink tag to anything when it had a 
specified size of 11 pt, that size is now a property of the text. It will not 
change when you redefine the character format of the tag to be as is because 
the as is size is 11 pt. If the character tag is applied within the 
cross-reference format, I believe you'll need to reinsert the cross-reference 
to get the oversize characters to revert to the underlying paragraph 
specification for your table footnote. 

-Fred Ridder 

From: beverly_robin...@datacard.com
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:05:22 -0600
Subject: Character Tag As Is setting--isn't

FrameMaker 10.0.2.419 on Windows 7 64-bit My template has a  character tag, 
Hyperlink, that makes text blue. The Size setting had been at 11 pt, the size 
for Body paragraphs. Recently I needed to use the tag in a cross-reference in a 
table footnote. Table footnotes are 9 pt. So I changed the Size setting to As 
Is but:· After clicking As Is, the Size control doesn’t say “As 
Is”—it’s blank.· Hyperlink text in table footnotes is larger than 9 pt. 
FrameMaker help says nothing about this anomaly and I didn’t see anything 
similar in the first 5 pages on the FrameMaker user forum. Has anyone else run 
into this? Found a solution? Thanks for your help,Beverly
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