Vertical spacing inconsistencies
At 08:36 -0600 2/8/07, Combs, Richard wrote: >Are you sure you don't have Baseline Synchronization or Feather turned >on (in Format > Page Layout > Line Layout)? I've never used those >features (or Balance Columns in Column Layout), so I'm guessing -- but >they're my primary suspects (actually, my only suspects) for causing >variable vertical spacing. And they'd be imported with the Document >Properties (an unfortunate grab-bag of settings, IMHO). You've got it! I looked at this before and it was not turned on in the 'bad' layout, but I was looking at it in Master Page view, where these options are off [and presumably a nonsense for a one-column layout anyway, unless FrameMaker is trying to synchronize across adjacent pages]. However, when I look at Format > Page Layout > Line Layout in Body Page view, which I failed to do before, they are on. Presumably therefore they are on as a master page override. It will come as no surprise to hear that turning these options off fixes the bad vertical spacings [it was actually the 'Feather' setting that was causing the problem]. SANITY IS RESTORED! Thanks everyone. -- Steve
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Anyone following this thread may remember that I was suffering from inconsistent vertical spacing between headings and following paras when no overrides were active, and that I found that creating a new document and copying selected contents to it removed the problem. I did not find the cause of the problem. I now know that with old document [bad] and new cut/paste document [good], the good document goes bad - i.e. starts to re-manifest the bad spacing - when I import document properties from the good to the bad. This means that I now know what not to do, but not why. If anyone has any guesses, I'd be interested. -- Steve
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Hi, Steve: On 8/2/07, Steve Rickaby wrote: > Anyone following this thread may remember that I was suffering from > inconsistent vertical spacing between headings and following paras when no > overrides were active, and that I found that creating a new document and > copying selected contents to it removed the problem. I did not find the cause > of the problem. > > I now know that with old document [bad] and new cut/paste document [good], > the good document goes bad - i.e. starts to re-manifest the bad spacing - > when I import document properties from the good to the bad. > > This means that I now know what not to do, but not why. If anyone has any > guesses, I'd be interested. There's some confusion about what properties are controlled by the "document properties" property. Try Google searches for framemaker document properties and similar phrases, to find old threads. Another approach might be to search a MIF file; perhaps it would be slightly "scientific" if you create a new blank document, save it to MIF, then import document properties only from the bad file, save that to another MIF, open the two MIF files as text files in FM, and use File > Utilities > Compare Documents to look for differences. If this works, we could name the technique after ourselves and place it in public domain for the whole FM-er community. HTH Regards, Peter ___ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Steve Rickaby wrote: > Anyone following this thread may remember that I was > suffering from inconsistent vertical spacing between headings > and following paras when no overrides were active, and that I > found that creating a new document and copying selected > contents to it removed the problem. I did not find the cause > of the problem. > > I now know that with old document [bad] and new cut/paste > document [good], the good document goes bad - i.e. starts to > re-manifest the bad spacing - when I import document > properties from the good to the bad. Are you sure you don't have Baseline Synchronization or Feather turned on (in Format > Page Layout > Line Layout)? I've never used those features (or Balance Columns in Column Layout), so I'm guessing -- but they're my primary suspects (actually, my only suspects) for causing variable vertical spacing. And they'd be imported with the Document Properties (an unfortunate grab-bag of settings, IMHO). HTH! Richard -- Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 --
RE: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
At 08:36 -0600 2/8/07, Combs, Richard wrote: >Are you sure you don't have Baseline Synchronization or Feather turned >on (in Format > Page Layout > Line Layout)? I've never used those >features (or Balance Columns in Column Layout), so I'm guessing -- but >they're my primary suspects (actually, my only suspects) for causing >variable vertical spacing. And they'd be imported with the Document >Properties (an unfortunate grab-bag of settings, IMHO). You've got it! I looked at this before and it was not turned on in the 'bad' layout, but I was looking at it in Master Page view, where these options are off [and presumably a nonsense for a one-column layout anyway, unless FrameMaker is trying to synchronize across adjacent pages]. However, when I look at Format > Page Layout > Line Layout in Body Page view, which I failed to do before, they are on. Presumably therefore they are on as a master page override. It will come as no surprise to hear that turning these options off fixes the bad vertical spacings [it was actually the 'Feather' setting that was causing the problem]. SANITY IS RESTORED! Thanks everyone. -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Hi, Steve: On 8/2/07, Steve Rickaby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Anyone following this thread may remember that I was suffering from > inconsistent vertical spacing between headings and following paras when no > overrides were active, and that I found that creating a new document and > copying selected contents to it removed the problem. I did not find the cause > of the problem. > > I now know that with old document [bad] and new cut/paste document [good], > the good document goes bad - i.e. starts to re-manifest the bad spacing - > when I import document properties from the good to the bad. > > This means that I now know what not to do, but not why. If anyone has any > guesses, I'd be interested. There's some confusion about what properties are controlled by the "document properties" property. Try Google searches for framemaker document properties and similar phrases, to find old threads. Another approach might be to search a MIF file; perhaps it would be slightly "scientific" if you create a new blank document, save it to MIF, then import document properties only from the bad file, save that to another MIF, open the two MIF files as text files in FM, and use File > Utilities > Compare Documents to look for differences. If this works, we could name the technique after ourselves and place it in public domain for the whole FM-er community. HTH Regards, Peter ___ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Steve Rickaby wrote: > Anyone following this thread may remember that I was > suffering from inconsistent vertical spacing between headings > and following paras when no overrides were active, and that I > found that creating a new document and copying selected > contents to it removed the problem. I did not find the cause > of the problem. > > I now know that with old document [bad] and new cut/paste > document [good], the good document goes bad - i.e. starts to > re-manifest the bad spacing - when I import document > properties from the good to the bad. Are you sure you don't have Baseline Synchronization or Feather turned on (in Format > Page Layout > Line Layout)? I've never used those features (or Balance Columns in Column Layout), so I'm guessing -- but they're my primary suspects (actually, my only suspects) for causing variable vertical spacing. And they'd be imported with the Document Properties (an unfortunate grab-bag of settings, IMHO). HTH! Richard -- Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Anyone following this thread may remember that I was suffering from inconsistent vertical spacing between headings and following paras when no overrides were active, and that I found that creating a new document and copying selected contents to it removed the problem. I did not find the cause of the problem. I now know that with old document [bad] and new cut/paste document [good], the good document goes bad - i.e. starts to re-manifest the bad spacing - when I import document properties from the good to the bad. This means that I now know what not to do, but not why. If anyone has any guesses, I'd be interested. -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Hi Peter At 17:33 -0500 27/7/07, Peter Gold wrote: >The Friday thing also struck me, it seems. I never got around to >suggesting what to ACTUALLY DO at the end of my long analytic look at >what possible combined workings of idiosyncratic font height >calculation, line height settings there might be to consider. Just ran >out of gas. Yeah, right, it gets me like that too. >I think I intended to say something like, "so, take a look >at these things, good luck, and Cheerio!" Ok. >Your solution to do an internal-organ transplant to a new corpus is a >good approach, especially because it works. The WHY and HOW aspects of >the problem's appearing could return little useful information, unless >it's quick and easy to perform a few steps that can recreate the >problems. Um, yeah, you're probably right. Unfortunately, doing the organ transplant means that I'll have to copy/realign all the delicate precision page decorations like reverse-out folios, but it's do-able. But I need to UNDERSTAND! ;-) One thing I forgot to mention is that the source arrived as a single-sided document, all pages identical. I set it to double-sided and created the missing master page by copying the contents of the existing one to the new one [left -> right or the other way around, I forget]. That might be a factor. Ah, no, I remember... it isn't, because the originals, all one-sided, different font, show the same bug. Scratch that. >If you try the MIF "wash" technique (save to MIF, open the MIF, save >to FM) and that fixes the problem, the assumption is that there was >corruption that came out in the wash. Good idea: now tried, and mif-washing didn't have an effect on the problem. Rats. >While transplanting to a new file steps nicely away from the annoying >settings, it's not informative about the cause. Quite so. >Try this: > >Create a circle in FM, copy it. Create text on one side that says >"Meet Deadline, Go Home Happy and Have a Beer to Celebrate." On the >other side, create text that says "Drink Lots of Beers While Searching >all Possible Causes of Problem, be Happy as You Wave 'Bye-bye to the >Passing Deadline, Go Home Mellow, Avoid Despondence Over Missed >Deadline." Print to heavy stock. Cut out the circles. Glue >back-to-back. Flip in the air. Observe the text on visible side. If >you don't like it, try best two out of three flips, or, maybe three >out of five, or.! The part of this solution that I like is the beer involvement factor. I will return to this on Monday. Or possible Tuesday. Thanks for your thoughts. -- Steve
Re: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Hi Peter At 17:33 -0500 27/7/07, Peter Gold wrote: >The Friday thing also struck me, it seems. I never got around to >suggesting what to ACTUALLY DO at the end of my long analytic look at >what possible combined workings of idiosyncratic font height >calculation, line height settings there might be to consider. Just ran >out of gas. Yeah, right, it gets me like that too. >I think I intended to say something like, "so, take a look >at these things, good luck, and Cheerio!" Ok. >Your solution to do an internal-organ transplant to a new corpus is a >good approach, especially because it works. The WHY and HOW aspects of >the problem's appearing could return little useful information, unless >it's quick and easy to perform a few steps that can recreate the >problems. Um, yeah, you're probably right. Unfortunately, doing the organ transplant means that I'll have to copy/realign all the delicate precision page decorations like reverse-out folios, but it's do-able. But I need to UNDERSTAND! ;-) One thing I forgot to mention is that the source arrived as a single-sided document, all pages identical. I set it to double-sided and created the missing master page by copying the contents of the existing one to the new one [left -> right or the other way around, I forget]. That might be a factor. Ah, no, I remember... it isn't, because the originals, all one-sided, different font, show the same bug. Scratch that. >If you try the MIF "wash" technique (save to MIF, open the MIF, save >to FM) and that fixes the problem, the assumption is that there was >corruption that came out in the wash. Good idea: now tried, and mif-washing didn't have an effect on the problem. Rats. >While transplanting to a new file steps nicely away from the annoying >settings, it's not informative about the cause. Quite so. >Try this: > >Create a circle in FM, copy it. Create text on one side that says >"Meet Deadline, Go Home Happy and Have a Beer to Celebrate." On the >other side, create text that says "Drink Lots of Beers While Searching >all Possible Causes of Problem, be Happy as You Wave 'Bye-bye to the >Passing Deadline, Go Home Mellow, Avoid Despondence Over Missed >Deadline." Print to heavy stock. Cut out the circles. Glue >back-to-back. Flip in the air. Observe the text on visible side. If >you don't like it, try best two out of three flips, or, maybe three >out of five, or.! The part of this solution that I like is the beer involvement factor. I will return to this on Monday. Or possible Tuesday. Thanks for your thoughts. -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Vertical spacing inconsistencies [more]
At 12:19 -0500 27/7/07, Peter Gold wrote: >I hope I understand your meaning. If you mean that the inter-paragraph >space varies for the same consecutive paragraphs formats, depending on >where they are within a column or text frame, perhaps one or more of >these options are turned on: Format > Customize Layout > Customize >Text Frame > Balance Columns or Format > Customize Layout > Line >Layout > Baseline Synchronization. I have found a fix for the problem, but I don't know why it fixes it. If I create a new double-sided document and copy/paste the body page contents from the template into it, the vertical leading issue goes away. This strongly suggests that it may be something to do with the master page text frames, but I'm not sure what. -- Steve
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
At 12:19 -0500 27/7/07, Peter Gold wrote:
>I'm not aware of bugs in this area (but there could be).
>
>I hope I understand your meaning. If you mean that the inter-paragraph
>space varies for the same consecutive paragraphs formats, depending on
>where they are within a column or text frame,...
Is what I mean, yes...
>... perhaps one or more of these options are turned on: Format > Customize
>Layout > Customize Text Frame > Balance Columns or Format > Customize Layout >
>Line Layout > Baseline Synchronization.
Wow, bang on. Although the Left / Right masters are only one column, 'Balance
Columns' was enabled.
That's the good news. The bad news is that turning it off didn't fix the bug.
Baseline sync was off, though... and shouldn't affect a one-column layout
anyway?
Now here's a thing. If I select Format > Page Layout > Column Layout on a Left
or Right master page, FrameMaker says 'This document's Left/Right master pages
have an irregular column layout. Using the Column Layout command will remove
this layout. Are you sure you want to do this?'. I can't recall having seen
this warning before, but it's maybe warning me about custom margins. Updating
the entire flow sets margins as mirror images.
I don't think this relates to the problem I'm seeing, though. Allowing this
command loose on the master pages moves things around, but it does not fix the
vertical leading bug.
>If you mean simply that the spacing between all paragraphs isn't the
>identical, then try this tack:
>
>I'm sure you're aware that FrameMaker space between paragraphs is
>controlled by the larger of space below and space above. That is, it's
>not additive, as in nearly all other publishing and word-processing
>tools.
Yes. However, surely the spacing between all instances of a specific heading
and the following para should be the same if they all have the same pair of
tags and none of the paras have overrides, though? The fact that this is not
working here is a singularity in my FrameMaker universe, and it's making me
distinctly unhappy :-(
>The Fixed line spacing truncates any character that exceeds the
>setting's height. This is supposed to keep all lines in the paragraph
>from being pushed out of the leading setting by too-tall characters.
.. on inline graphics.
>The point size and line-height (leading) of the Fruitiger are the same
>("solid"), but the Revival leading is about the standard-amount larger
>than the type's point size.
Ok... but I see the same problem with the original files in which the body font
was Times New Roman.
Just checked, and for 9.8 point Revival, 11.8 point is what FrameMaker
considers to be single line spacing. That's how it got to be 11.8 points, I
guess - it's tracking the font size. If I set the Revival to 10 points, the
line spacing goes to 12 points, as you'd expect.
>Depending on the individual type font, point size isn't always what
>you think it is. Different fonts name the point size by referring to a
>dimension of a letter in the font. It's common to use the height of a
>lowercase "x" (x-height), but it's a flexible standard across type
>foundries; sometimes it's a different letter, sometimes it's a
>different dimension (width, rather than height, etc.), and in novel
>font designs, sometimes the reference for point size may be unique to
>that font.
>
>I agree that any fragment or all of this is probably too much for a
>Friday, anywhere in the FrameMaker universe.
Not at all. But I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting I try here. Make the
fixed line spacing of the Revival bigger? Smaller? Not fixed?
--
Steve
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
At 13:03 -0400 27/7/07, Art Campbell wrote: >Is the page that you're working on imported from another program? Nope. >Could it have hidden characters? (You have view all text characters >turned on?) Yep. Nothing odd visible. >Does the page print with the same inconsistencies? Not tried. >Is your ini file set to use printer metrics on the display? (And is Adobe PDF >set as the default printer?) Mac FrameMaker, so no .ini file ;-) >Any chance that any of the tags are calling for a frame above / below? The A head uses a line above, but the other two don't call for anything. All three heading levels show this problem. -- Steve
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
I'm probably breaking rules here by posting two queries in succession. Sorry. Today is not a good day with FrameMaker. TGIF. I am working up a template, and am seeing visibly inconsistent vertical spacing between headings and body paras in the same document despite the fact that there are no overrides. Here are the relevant specs: A Heading space above 19 pt, space below 6 pt, line spacing 16 pt fixed, 16 point Frutiger bold uppercase, left justified B Heading space above 18 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 14 pt fixed, 14 point Frutiger bold, left justified C Heading space above 13.5 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 13.5 pt fixed, 13.5 point Frutiger bold italic, left justified BodyFirst [follows all headings] Space above 0 pt, space below 0 pt, line spacing 11.8 pt fixed, 9.8 pt Revival 565 Roman, full justified What I see is visibly different, over-large, vertical leading between some, but not all, A, B and C headings and the BodyFirst paras that follow them. To reiterate, there are *no* para overrides. There are no master page overrides either. [I inherited some of these specs, in case you think they're odd because of me. I have dickered with the originals, changing fonts and spacings, but the original files, which mostly used Times New Roman, show the same oddity.] Are there any known FrameMaker bugs in this area? Is there perhaps some sort of thing going on with the differing fixed line spacing? -- Steve
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Hi, Steve:
The Friday thing also struck me, it seems. I never got around to
suggesting what to ACTUALLY DO at the end of my long analytic look at
what possible combined workings of idiosyncratic font height
calculation, line height settings there might be to consider. Just ran
out of gas. I think I intended to say something like, "so, take a look
at these things, good luck, and Cheerio!"
Your solution to do an internal-organ transplant to a new corpus is a
good approach, especially because it works. The WHY and HOW aspects of
the problem's appearing could return little useful information, unless
it's quick and easy to perform a few steps that can recreate the
problems.
If you try the MIF "wash" technique (save to MIF, open the MIF, save
to FM) and that fixes the problem, the assumption is that there was
corruption that came out in the wash. While transplanting to a new
file steps nicely away from the annoying settings, it's not
informative about the cause.
Try this:
Create a circle in FM, copy it. Create text on one side that says
"Meet Deadline, Go Home Happy and Have a Beer to Celebrate." On the
other side, create text that says "Drink Lots of Beers While Searching
all Possible Causes of Problem, be Happy as You Wave 'Bye-bye to the
Passing Deadline, Go Home Mellow, Avoid Despondence Over Missed
Deadline." Print to heavy stock. Cut out the circles. Glue
back-to-back. Flip in the air. Observe the text on visible side. If
you don't like it, try best two out of three flips, or, maybe three
out of five, or.!
HTH
Regards,
Peter
___
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
PS: You're correct about inline frames; they obey line height settings
because they're considered text.
On 7/27/07, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> At 12:19 -0500 27/7/07, Peter Gold wrote:
>
> >I'm not aware of bugs in this area (but there could be).
> >
> >I hope I understand your meaning. If you mean that the inter-paragraph
> >space varies for the same consecutive paragraphs formats, depending on
> >where they are within a column or text frame,...
>
> Is what I mean, yes...
>
> >... perhaps one or more of these options are turned on: Format > Customize
> >Layout > Customize Text Frame > Balance Columns or Format > Customize Layout
> >> Line Layout > Baseline Synchronization.
>
> Wow, bang on. Although the Left / Right masters are only one column, 'Balance
> Columns' was enabled.
>
> That's the good news. The bad news is that turning it off didn't fix the bug.
>
> Baseline sync was off, though... and shouldn't affect a one-column layout
> anyway?
>
> Now here's a thing. If I select Format > Page Layout > Column Layout on a
> Left or Right master page, FrameMaker says 'This document's Left/Right master
> pages have an irregular column layout. Using the Column Layout command will
> remove this layout. Are you sure you want to do this?'. I can't recall having
> seen this warning before, but it's maybe warning me about custom margins.
> Updating the entire flow sets margins as mirror images.
>
> I don't think this relates to the problem I'm seeing, though. Allowing this
> command loose on the master pages moves things around, but it does not fix
> the vertical leading bug.
>
> >If you mean simply that the spacing between all paragraphs isn't the
> >identical, then try this tack:
> >
> >I'm sure you're aware that FrameMaker space between paragraphs is
> >controlled by the larger of space below and space above. That is, it's
> >not additive, as in nearly all other publishing and word-processing
> >tools.
>
> Yes. However, surely the spacing between all instances of a specific heading
> and the following para should be the same if they all have the same pair of
> tags and none of the paras have overrides, though? The fact that this is not
> working here is a singularity in my FrameMaker universe, and it's making me
> distinctly unhappy :-(
>
> >The Fixed line spacing truncates any character that exceeds the
> >setting's height. This is supposed to keep all lines in the paragraph
> >from being pushed out of the leading setting by too-tall characters.
>
> .. on inline graphics.
>
> >The point size and line-height (leading) of the Fruitiger are the same
> >("solid"), but the Revival leading is about the standard-amount larger
> >than the type's point size.
>
> Ok... but I see the same problem with the original files in which the body
> font was Times New Roman.
>
> Just checked, and for 9.8 point Revival, 11.8 point is what FrameMaker
> considers to be single line spacing. That's how it got to be 11.8 points, I
> guess - it's tracking the font size. If I set the Revival to 10 points, the
> line spacing goes to 12 points, as you'd expect.
>
> >Depending on the individual type font, point size isn't always what
> >you think it is. Different fonts name the point size by referring to a
> >dimension of a letter in the font. It's common to use the height of a
> >lowercase "x" (x-height), but it's a flexible stan
Re: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Hi, Steve:
The Friday thing also struck me, it seems. I never got around to
suggesting what to ACTUALLY DO at the end of my long analytic look at
what possible combined workings of idiosyncratic font height
calculation, line height settings there might be to consider. Just ran
out of gas. I think I intended to say something like, "so, take a look
at these things, good luck, and Cheerio!"
Your solution to do an internal-organ transplant to a new corpus is a
good approach, especially because it works. The WHY and HOW aspects of
the problem's appearing could return little useful information, unless
it's quick and easy to perform a few steps that can recreate the
problems.
If you try the MIF "wash" technique (save to MIF, open the MIF, save
to FM) and that fixes the problem, the assumption is that there was
corruption that came out in the wash. While transplanting to a new
file steps nicely away from the annoying settings, it's not
informative about the cause.
Try this:
Create a circle in FM, copy it. Create text on one side that says
"Meet Deadline, Go Home Happy and Have a Beer to Celebrate." On the
other side, create text that says "Drink Lots of Beers While Searching
all Possible Causes of Problem, be Happy as You Wave 'Bye-bye to the
Passing Deadline, Go Home Mellow, Avoid Despondence Over Missed
Deadline." Print to heavy stock. Cut out the circles. Glue
back-to-back. Flip in the air. Observe the text on visible side. If
you don't like it, try best two out of three flips, or, maybe three
out of five, or.!
HTH
Regards,
Peter
___
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
PS: You're correct about inline frames; they obey line height settings
because they're considered text.
On 7/27/07, Steve Rickaby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 12:19 -0500 27/7/07, Peter Gold wrote:
>
> >I'm not aware of bugs in this area (but there could be).
> >
> >I hope I understand your meaning. If you mean that the inter-paragraph
> >space varies for the same consecutive paragraphs formats, depending on
> >where they are within a column or text frame,...
>
> Is what I mean, yes...
>
> >... perhaps one or more of these options are turned on: Format > Customize
> >Layout > Customize Text Frame > Balance Columns or Format > Customize Layout
> >> Line Layout > Baseline Synchronization.
>
> Wow, bang on. Although the Left / Right masters are only one column, 'Balance
> Columns' was enabled.
>
> That's the good news. The bad news is that turning it off didn't fix the bug.
>
> Baseline sync was off, though... and shouldn't affect a one-column layout
> anyway?
>
> Now here's a thing. If I select Format > Page Layout > Column Layout on a
> Left or Right master page, FrameMaker says 'This document's Left/Right master
> pages have an irregular column layout. Using the Column Layout command will
> remove this layout. Are you sure you want to do this?'. I can't recall having
> seen this warning before, but it's maybe warning me about custom margins.
> Updating the entire flow sets margins as mirror images.
>
> I don't think this relates to the problem I'm seeing, though. Allowing this
> command loose on the master pages moves things around, but it does not fix
> the vertical leading bug.
>
> >If you mean simply that the spacing between all paragraphs isn't the
> >identical, then try this tack:
> >
> >I'm sure you're aware that FrameMaker space between paragraphs is
> >controlled by the larger of space below and space above. That is, it's
> >not additive, as in nearly all other publishing and word-processing
> >tools.
>
> Yes. However, surely the spacing between all instances of a specific heading
> and the following para should be the same if they all have the same pair of
> tags and none of the paras have overrides, though? The fact that this is not
> working here is a singularity in my FrameMaker universe, and it's making me
> distinctly unhappy :-(
>
> >The Fixed line spacing truncates any character that exceeds the
> >setting's height. This is supposed to keep all lines in the paragraph
> >from being pushed out of the leading setting by too-tall characters.
>
> .. on inline graphics.
>
> >The point size and line-height (leading) of the Fruitiger are the same
> >("solid"), but the Revival leading is about the standard-amount larger
> >than the type's point size.
>
> Ok... but I see the same problem with the original files in which the body
> font was Times New Roman.
>
> Just checked, and for 9.8 point Revival, 11.8 point is what FrameMaker
> considers to be single line spacing. That's how it got to be 11.8 points, I
> guess - it's tracking the font size. If I set the Revival to 10 points, the
> line spacing goes to 12 points, as you'd expect.
>
> >Depending on the individual type font, point size isn't always what
> >you think it is. Different fonts name the point size by referring to a
> >dimension of a letter in the font. It's common to use the height of a
> >lowercase "x" (x-height), but i
Re: Vertical spacing inconsistencies [more]
At 12:19 -0500 27/7/07, Peter Gold wrote: >I hope I understand your meaning. If you mean that the inter-paragraph >space varies for the same consecutive paragraphs formats, depending on >where they are within a column or text frame, perhaps one or more of >these options are turned on: Format > Customize Layout > Customize >Text Frame > Balance Columns or Format > Customize Layout > Line >Layout > Baseline Synchronization. I have found a fix for the problem, but I don't know why it fixes it. If I create a new double-sided document and copy/paste the body page contents from the template into it, the vertical leading issue goes away. This strongly suggests that it may be something to do with the master page text frames, but I'm not sure what. -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
At 12:19 -0500 27/7/07, Peter Gold wrote:
>I'm not aware of bugs in this area (but there could be).
>
>I hope I understand your meaning. If you mean that the inter-paragraph
>space varies for the same consecutive paragraphs formats, depending on
>where they are within a column or text frame,...
Is what I mean, yes...
>... perhaps one or more of these options are turned on: Format > Customize
>Layout > Customize Text Frame > Balance Columns or Format > Customize Layout >
>Line Layout > Baseline Synchronization.
Wow, bang on. Although the Left / Right masters are only one column, 'Balance
Columns' was enabled.
That's the good news. The bad news is that turning it off didn't fix the bug.
Baseline sync was off, though... and shouldn't affect a one-column layout
anyway?
Now here's a thing. If I select Format > Page Layout > Column Layout on a Left
or Right master page, FrameMaker says 'This document's Left/Right master pages
have an irregular column layout. Using the Column Layout command will remove
this layout. Are you sure you want to do this?'. I can't recall having seen
this warning before, but it's maybe warning me about custom margins. Updating
the entire flow sets margins as mirror images.
I don't think this relates to the problem I'm seeing, though. Allowing this
command loose on the master pages moves things around, but it does not fix the
vertical leading bug.
>If you mean simply that the spacing between all paragraphs isn't the
>identical, then try this tack:
>
>I'm sure you're aware that FrameMaker space between paragraphs is
>controlled by the larger of space below and space above. That is, it's
>not additive, as in nearly all other publishing and word-processing
>tools.
Yes. However, surely the spacing between all instances of a specific heading
and the following para should be the same if they all have the same pair of
tags and none of the paras have overrides, though? The fact that this is not
working here is a singularity in my FrameMaker universe, and it's making me
distinctly unhappy :-(
>The Fixed line spacing truncates any character that exceeds the
>setting's height. This is supposed to keep all lines in the paragraph
>from being pushed out of the leading setting by too-tall characters.
.. on inline graphics.
>The point size and line-height (leading) of the Fruitiger are the same
>("solid"), but the Revival leading is about the standard-amount larger
>than the type's point size.
Ok... but I see the same problem with the original files in which the body font
was Times New Roman.
Just checked, and for 9.8 point Revival, 11.8 point is what FrameMaker
considers to be single line spacing. That's how it got to be 11.8 points, I
guess - it's tracking the font size. If I set the Revival to 10 points, the
line spacing goes to 12 points, as you'd expect.
>Depending on the individual type font, point size isn't always what
>you think it is. Different fonts name the point size by referring to a
>dimension of a letter in the font. It's common to use the height of a
>lowercase "x" (x-height), but it's a flexible standard across type
>foundries; sometimes it's a different letter, sometimes it's a
>different dimension (width, rather than height, etc.), and in novel
>font designs, sometimes the reference for point size may be unique to
>that font.
>
>I agree that any fragment or all of this is probably too much for a
>Friday, anywhere in the FrameMaker universe.
Not at all. But I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting I try here. Make the
fixed line spacing of the Revival bigger? Smaller? Not fixed?
--
Steve
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Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Steve Rickaby wrote: > What I see is visibly different, over-large, vertical leading between > some, but not all, A, B and C headings and the BodyFirst paras that > follow them. To reiterate, there are *no* para overrides. There are > no master page overrides either. Have you got Baseline Synchronization or Feathering turned on? (Format > Page Layout > Line Layout). Kenneth Benson Pegasus Type, Inc. www.pegtype.com
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Steve, Is the page that you're working on imported from another program? Could it have hidden characters? (You have view all text characters turned on?) Does the page print with the same inconsistencies? Is your ini file set to use printer metrics on the display? (And is Adobe PDF set as the default printer?) Any chance that any of the tags are calling for a frame above / below? Art On 7/27/07, Steve Rickaby wrote: > I'm probably breaking rules here by posting two queries in succession. Sorry. > Today is not a good day with FrameMaker. TGIF. > > I am working up a template, and am seeing visibly inconsistent vertical > spacing between headings and body paras in the same document despite the fact > that there are no overrides. > > Here are the relevant specs: > > A Heading space above 19 pt, space below 6 pt, line spacing 16 pt fixed, 16 > point Frutiger bold uppercase, left justified > > B Heading space above 18 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 14 pt fixed, 14 > point Frutiger bold, left justified > > C Heading space above 13.5 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 13.5 pt fixed, > 13.5 point Frutiger bold italic, left justified > > BodyFirst [follows all headings] Space above 0 pt, space below 0 pt, line > spacing 11.8 pt fixed, 9.8 pt Revival 565 Roman, full justified > > What I see is visibly different, over-large, vertical leading between some, > but not all, A, B and C headings and the BodyFirst paras that follow them. To > reiterate, there are *no* para overrides. There are no master page overrides > either. > > [I inherited some of these specs, in case you think they're odd because of > me. I have dickered with the originals, changing fonts and spacings, but the > original files, which mostly used Times New Roman, show the same oddity.] > > Are there any known FrameMaker bugs in this area? Is there perhaps some sort > of thing going on with the differing fixed line spacing? > > -- > Steve > ___ > -- Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Hi, Steve:
I'm not aware of bugs in this area (but there could be).
I hope I understand your meaning. If you mean that the inter-paragraph
space varies for the same consecutive paragraphs formats, depending on
where they are within a column or text frame, perhaps one or more of
these options are turned on: Format > Customize Layout > Customize
Text Frame > Balance Columns or Format > Customize Layout > Line
Layout > Baseline Synchronization.
If you mean simply that the spacing between all paragraphs isn't the
identical, then try this tack:
I'm sure you're aware that FrameMaker space between paragraphs is
controlled by the larger of space below and space above. That is, it's
not additive, as in nearly all other publishing and word-processing
tools.
The Fixed line spacing truncates any character that exceeds the
setting's height. This is supposed to keep all lines in the paragraph
from being pushed out of the leading setting by too-tall characters.
The point size and line-height (leading) of the Fruitiger are the same
("solid"), but the Revival leading is about the standard-amount larger
than the type's point size.
Depending on the individual type font, point size isn't always what
you think it is. Different fonts name the point size by referring to a
dimension of a letter in the font. It's common to use the height of a
lowercase "x" (x-height), but it's a flexible standard across type
foundries; sometimes it's a different letter, sometimes it's a
different dimension (width, rather than height, etc.), and in novel
font designs, sometimes the reference for point size may be unique to
that font.
I agree that any fragment or all of this is probably too much for a
Friday, anywhere in the FrameMaker universe.
HTH
Regards,
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
On 7/27/07, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> I'm probably breaking rules here by posting two queries in succession. Sorry.
> Today is not a good day with FrameMaker. TGIF.
>
> I am working up a template, and am seeing visibly inconsistent vertical
> spacing between headings and body paras in the same document despite the fact
> that there are no overrides.
>
> Here are the relevant specs:
>
> A Heading space above 19 pt, space below 6 pt, line spacing 16 pt fixed, 16
> point Frutiger bold uppercase, left justified
>
> B Heading space above 18 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 14 pt fixed, 14
> point Frutiger bold, left justified
>
> C Heading space above 13.5 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 13.5 pt fixed,
> 13.5 point Frutiger bold italic, left justified
>
> BodyFirst [follows all headings] Space above 0 pt, space below 0 pt, line
> spacing 11.8 pt fixed, 9.8 pt Revival 565 Roman, full justified
>
> What I see is visibly different, over-large, vertical leading between some,
> but not all, A, B and C headings and the BodyFirst paras that follow them. To
> reiterate, there are *no* para overrides. There are no master page overrides
> either.
>
> [I inherited some of these specs, in case you think they're odd because of
> me. I have dickered with the originals, changing fonts and spacings, but the
> original files, which mostly used Times New Roman, show the same oddity.]
>
> Are there any known FrameMaker bugs in this area? Is there perhaps some sort
> of thing going on with the differing fixed line spacing?
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
>
>
Re: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Hi, Steve:
I'm not aware of bugs in this area (but there could be).
I hope I understand your meaning. If you mean that the inter-paragraph
space varies for the same consecutive paragraphs formats, depending on
where they are within a column or text frame, perhaps one or more of
these options are turned on: Format > Customize Layout > Customize
Text Frame > Balance Columns or Format > Customize Layout > Line
Layout > Baseline Synchronization.
If you mean simply that the spacing between all paragraphs isn't the
identical, then try this tack:
I'm sure you're aware that FrameMaker space between paragraphs is
controlled by the larger of space below and space above. That is, it's
not additive, as in nearly all other publishing and word-processing
tools.
The Fixed line spacing truncates any character that exceeds the
setting's height. This is supposed to keep all lines in the paragraph
from being pushed out of the leading setting by too-tall characters.
The point size and line-height (leading) of the Fruitiger are the same
("solid"), but the Revival leading is about the standard-amount larger
than the type's point size.
Depending on the individual type font, point size isn't always what
you think it is. Different fonts name the point size by referring to a
dimension of a letter in the font. It's common to use the height of a
lowercase "x" (x-height), but it's a flexible standard across type
foundries; sometimes it's a different letter, sometimes it's a
different dimension (width, rather than height, etc.), and in novel
font designs, sometimes the reference for point size may be unique to
that font.
I agree that any fragment or all of this is probably too much for a
Friday, anywhere in the FrameMaker universe.
HTH
Regards,
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
On 7/27/07, Steve Rickaby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm probably breaking rules here by posting two queries in succession. Sorry.
> Today is not a good day with FrameMaker. TGIF.
>
> I am working up a template, and am seeing visibly inconsistent vertical
> spacing between headings and body paras in the same document despite the fact
> that there are no overrides.
>
> Here are the relevant specs:
>
> A Heading space above 19 pt, space below 6 pt, line spacing 16 pt fixed, 16
> point Frutiger bold uppercase, left justified
>
> B Heading space above 18 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 14 pt fixed, 14
> point Frutiger bold, left justified
>
> C Heading space above 13.5 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 13.5 pt fixed,
> 13.5 point Frutiger bold italic, left justified
>
> BodyFirst [follows all headings] Space above 0 pt, space below 0 pt, line
> spacing 11.8 pt fixed, 9.8 pt Revival 565 Roman, full justified
>
> What I see is visibly different, over-large, vertical leading between some,
> but not all, A, B and C headings and the BodyFirst paras that follow them. To
> reiterate, there are *no* para overrides. There are no master page overrides
> either.
>
> [I inherited some of these specs, in case you think they're odd because of
> me. I have dickered with the originals, changing fonts and spacings, but the
> original files, which mostly used Times New Roman, show the same oddity.]
>
> Are there any known FrameMaker bugs in this area? Is there perhaps some sort
> of thing going on with the differing fixed line spacing?
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
>
>
___
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Re: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
At 13:03 -0400 27/7/07, Art Campbell wrote: >Is the page that you're working on imported from another program? Nope. >Could it have hidden characters? (You have view all text characters >turned on?) Yep. Nothing odd visible. >Does the page print with the same inconsistencies? Not tried. >Is your ini file set to use printer metrics on the display? (And is Adobe PDF >set as the default printer?) Mac FrameMaker, so no .ini file ;-) >Any chance that any of the tags are calling for a frame above / below? The A head uses a line above, but the other two don't call for anything. All three heading levels show this problem. -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Steve Rickaby wrote: What I see is visibly different, over-large, vertical leading between some, but not all, A, B and C headings and the BodyFirst paras that follow them. To reiterate, there are *no* para overrides. There are no master page overrides either. Have you got Baseline Synchronization or Feathering turned on? (Format > Page Layout > Line Layout). Kenneth Benson Pegasus Type, Inc. www.pegtype.com ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Vertical spacing inconsistencies
Steve, Is the page that you're working on imported from another program? Could it have hidden characters? (You have view all text characters turned on?) Does the page print with the same inconsistencies? Is your ini file set to use printer metrics on the display? (And is Adobe PDF set as the default printer?) Any chance that any of the tags are calling for a frame above / below? Art On 7/27/07, Steve Rickaby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm probably breaking rules here by posting two queries in succession. Sorry. > Today is not a good day with FrameMaker. TGIF. > > I am working up a template, and am seeing visibly inconsistent vertical > spacing between headings and body paras in the same document despite the fact > that there are no overrides. > > Here are the relevant specs: > > A Heading space above 19 pt, space below 6 pt, line spacing 16 pt fixed, 16 > point Frutiger bold uppercase, left justified > > B Heading space above 18 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 14 pt fixed, 14 > point Frutiger bold, left justified > > C Heading space above 13.5 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 13.5 pt fixed, > 13.5 point Frutiger bold italic, left justified > > BodyFirst [follows all headings] Space above 0 pt, space below 0 pt, line > spacing 11.8 pt fixed, 9.8 pt Revival 565 Roman, full justified > > What I see is visibly different, over-large, vertical leading between some, > but not all, A, B and C headings and the BodyFirst paras that follow them. To > reiterate, there are *no* para overrides. There are no master page overrides > either. > > [I inherited some of these specs, in case you think they're odd because of > me. I have dickered with the originals, changing fonts and spacings, but the > original files, which mostly used Times New Roman, show the same oddity.] > > Are there any known FrameMaker bugs in this area? Is there perhaps some sort > of thing going on with the differing fixed line spacing? > > -- > Steve > ___ > -- Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Vertical spacing inconsistencies
I'm probably breaking rules here by posting two queries in succession. Sorry. Today is not a good day with FrameMaker. TGIF. I am working up a template, and am seeing visibly inconsistent vertical spacing between headings and body paras in the same document despite the fact that there are no overrides. Here are the relevant specs: A Heading space above 19 pt, space below 6 pt, line spacing 16 pt fixed, 16 point Frutiger bold uppercase, left justified B Heading space above 18 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 14 pt fixed, 14 point Frutiger bold, left justified C Heading space above 13.5 pt, space below 3 pt, line spacing 13.5 pt fixed, 13.5 point Frutiger bold italic, left justified BodyFirst [follows all headings] Space above 0 pt, space below 0 pt, line spacing 11.8 pt fixed, 9.8 pt Revival 565 Roman, full justified What I see is visibly different, over-large, vertical leading between some, but not all, A, B and C headings and the BodyFirst paras that follow them. To reiterate, there are *no* para overrides. There are no master page overrides either. [I inherited some of these specs, in case you think they're odd because of me. I have dickered with the originals, changing fonts and spacings, but the original files, which mostly used Times New Roman, show the same oddity.] Are there any known FrameMaker bugs in this area? Is there perhaps some sort of thing going on with the differing fixed line spacing? -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
