Re: [Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0

[Erik Rose]

One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern  
along the way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm  
currently applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from  
the plone.org redesign along with a color-neutral design for the  
navigation and other UI elements. The goal is to make something that  
you can put the company logo on, and it looks relatively decent, no  
matter what your company colors are.


+1. A change in look effects a preception of progress way out of  
proportion with its technical significance. This should keep the  
shallow people happy so the rest of us can have our small but  
important fixes before 2010. :-)


Erik
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Re: [Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0

[Ricardo Alves]

Alexander Limi wrote:
On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:36 -0700, Ricardo Alves  
wrote:



Steve McMahon wrote:

My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.


This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor 
set of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity.


I agree — this is the biggest risk in terms of calling it 4.0 instead 
of 3.5. The consensus to call the 2009 release 4.0 makes sense to me — 
so +1 on that decision.


One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern along 
the way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm 
currently applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from 
the plone.org redesign along with a color-neutral design for the 
navigation and other UI elements. The goal is to make something that 
you can put the company logo on, and it looks relatively decent, no 
matter what your company colors are.




+1. A refreshed visual theme plus several new features, like blob 
support or commenting improvements, have the potential to make 4.0 an 
appealing release.



Ricardo

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Re: [Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0

[Raphael Ritz]

Alexander Limi wrote:
On Sat, 09 May 2009 05:09:07 -0700, Martin Aspeli  


[..]

We'd also need to find a way to not break all existing themes.



It will "break" (ie. slightly change) themes that reuse parts of the  
original Plone CSS as part of their theme. Luckily, the fix is easy: make a copy of the old CSS in your product.
  


Or, even easier: use our underlying technologies
theming capabilities and simply ship with two themes. ;-)

Make the new one the default for new sites but leave
existing ones alone.

Other than that: +1 on the idea

Raphael


Few themes do this anymore though — it's mostly for the editing/authoring  
bits, which would still work (although they will change slightly too).  
Again, very easy to copy the old CSS into your theme if you want to keep  
the old style.


It's a x.0 release, so slight breakage like this shouldn't be a big issue.

  
A small visual refresh would be welcome, though. Plone is looking a bit  
last millenium. :-/



Yup.

  



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[Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0

[Alexander Limi]

On Sat, 09 May 2009 05:09:07 -0700, Martin Aspeli  
 wrote:


I'd support this, *if* it follows the usual PLIP process and we actively  
encourage outside review from the get-go. That process may mean the  
theme change gets a thumbs-down.


Of course.


We'd also need to find a way to not break all existing themes.


It will "break" (ie. slightly change) themes that reuse parts of the  
original Plone CSS as part of their theme. Luckily, the fix is easy: make  
a copy of the old CSS in your product.


Few themes do this anymore though — it's mostly for the editing/authoring  
bits, which would still work (although they will change slightly too).  
Again, very easy to copy the old CSS into your theme if you want to keep  
the old style.


It's a x.0 release, so slight breakage like this shouldn't be a big issue.

A small visual refresh would be welcome, though. Plone is looking a bit  
last millenium. :-/


Yup.

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Re: [Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0

[Francesco Ciriaci]

There was already quite a lot of work done in this precise direction  
during the Plone Conference 2007 Theme sprint.

http://www.openplans.org/projects/plone3-example-themes/capri-theme

accessibility and more stuff where considered, also. I don't  
particulary like the final (uncomplete) design of Capri Theme which  
is, obviously, at least two years old now, but there are work,  
experience and ideas there.


I'd be glad to help for this new theme; I asked to the developers list  
already, a few months ago, but did not get any feedback.


Cheers,
Francesco.


Il giorno 09/mag/09, alle ore 11:50, Alexander Limi ha scritto:

On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:36 -0700, Ricardo Alves   
wrote:



Steve McMahon wrote:

My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.


This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor  
set of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity.


I agree — this is the biggest risk in terms of calling it 4.0  
instead of 3.5. The consensus to call the 2009 release 4.0 makes  
sense to me — so +1 on that decision.


One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern  
along the way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm  
currently applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from  
the plone.org redesign along with a color-neutral design for the  
navigation and other UI elements. The goal is to make something that  
you can put the company logo on, and it looks relatively decent, no  
matter what your company colors are.


This would make 4.0 seem "fresh" out of the box, make it look like  
an application from 2009, and let us ship with considerably more  
efficient/smaller CSS files.


The risk would be that we need to do some IE6 testing on it, but  
that might not be a bad thing, since we know much more about IE6  
workarounds at this point than we did when the original CSS was  
written.


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Re: [Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0

[Wichert Akkerman]

Can we please stop the cc-o-rama? Seeing the entire thread tree times is
a bit much..

Previously Martin Aspeli wrote:
> I'd support this, *if* it follows the usual PLIP process and we actively 
> encourage outside review from the get-go. That process may mean the 
> theme change gets a thumbs-down.
> 
> Personally, I think it's a good idea, but in the past, we've had a lack 
> of commitment/follow-up with CSS/theme stuff, and a last-minute rush to 
> put in dozens of template and CSS changes which then cause breakage in 
> release candidates.

+1

Wichert.

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http://www.wiggy.net/   It is hard to make things simple.

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[Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0

[Laurence Rowe]

Martin Aspeli wrote:

Alexander Limi wrote:
On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:36 -0700, Ricardo Alves  
 wrote:



Steve McMahon wrote:

My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.
This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor 
set  of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity.


I agree — this is the biggest risk in terms of calling it 4.0 instead 
of  3.5. The consensus to call the 2009 release 4.0 makes sense to me 
— so +1  on that decision.


One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern along 
the  way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm 
currently  applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from 
the plone.org  redesign along with a color-neutral design for the 
navigation and other UI  elements. The goal is to make something that 
you can put the company logo  on, and it looks relatively decent, no 
matter what your company colors are.


This would make 4.0 seem "fresh" out of the box, make it look like an  
application from 2009, and let us ship with considerably more  
efficient/smaller CSS files.


The risk would be that we need to do some IE6 testing on it, but that  
might not be a bad thing, since we know much more about IE6 
workarounds at  this point than we did when the original CSS was written.


I'd support this, *if* it follows the usual PLIP process and we actively 
encourage outside review from the get-go. That process may mean the 
theme change gets a thumbs-down.


Personally, I think it's a good idea, but in the past, we've had a lack 
of commitment/follow-up with CSS/theme stuff, and a last-minute rush to 
put in dozens of template and CSS changes which then cause breakage in 
release candidates.


We'd also need to find a way to not break all existing themes.

A small visual refresh would be welcome, though. Plone is looking a bit 
last millenium. :-/


+1

Laurence


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[Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0

[Martin Aspeli]

Alexander Limi wrote:
On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:36 -0700, Ricardo Alves  
 wrote:



Steve McMahon wrote:

My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.
This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor set  
of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity.


I agree — this is the biggest risk in terms of calling it 4.0 instead of  
3.5. The consensus to call the 2009 release 4.0 makes sense to me — so +1  
on that decision.


One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern along the  
way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm currently  
applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from the plone.org  
redesign along with a color-neutral design for the navigation and other UI  
elements. The goal is to make something that you can put the company logo  
on, and it looks relatively decent, no matter what your company colors are.


This would make 4.0 seem "fresh" out of the box, make it look like an  
application from 2009, and let us ship with considerably more  
efficient/smaller CSS files.


The risk would be that we need to do some IE6 testing on it, but that  
might not be a bad thing, since we know much more about IE6 workarounds at  
this point than we did when the original CSS was written.


I'd support this, *if* it follows the usual PLIP process and we actively 
encourage outside review from the get-go. That process may mean the 
theme change gets a thumbs-down.


Personally, I think it's a good idea, but in the past, we've had a lack 
of commitment/follow-up with CSS/theme stuff, and a last-minute rush to 
put in dozens of template and CSS changes which then cause breakage in 
release candidates.


We'd also need to find a way to not break all existing themes.

A small visual refresh would be welcome, though. Plone is looking a bit 
last millenium. :-/


Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book


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[Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0

[Alexander Limi]

On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:36 -0700, Ricardo Alves  
 wrote:



Steve McMahon wrote:

My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.


This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor set  
of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity.


I agree — this is the biggest risk in terms of calling it 4.0 instead of  
3.5. The consensus to call the 2009 release 4.0 makes sense to me — so +1  
on that decision.


One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern along the  
way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm currently  
applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from the plone.org  
redesign along with a color-neutral design for the navigation and other UI  
elements. The goal is to make something that you can put the company logo  
on, and it looks relatively decent, no matter what your company colors are.


This would make 4.0 seem "fresh" out of the box, make it look like an  
application from 2009, and let us ship with considerably more  
efficient/smaller CSS files.


The risk would be that we need to do some IE6 testing on it, but that  
might not be a bad thing, since we know much more about IE6 workarounds at  
this point than we did when the original CSS was written.


--
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Re: [Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0, was Re: Plone 3.5

[Tom Lazar]

On 05.05.2009, at 23:44, Steve McMahon wrote:


So, a couple of questions for us all:

1) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we restrict ourselves to a modest list
of improvements that will actually get coded this summer and tested
this fall?


that should be the litmus test for any feature IMHO, simple as that.


2) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we resist ourselves to changes that
will not break existing theme products or well-constructed Plone 3 add
ons?


a major release should be 'allowed' to break some things. but it  
should provide migration help for 3rd party devs; this is more a  
social skill than a technical skill. and i'm sure we can pull it off :)


e.g. 4.0 should contain blob support. that *will* break certain 3rd  
party products (mainly, of course, 'homebaked' blob products etc. any  
site that uses those will not work OOTB after upgrading to 4.0. that  
can't be helped per se. but we should make an effort to seek out any  
(sufficiently popular) 3rd party products and contact their developers  
and include them in the 4.0 process.


proactivity is the keyword here. don't call us, we'll call you.

just my €0.02,

tom
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Re: [Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0, was Re: Plone 3.5

[Ricardo Alves]

Steve McMahon wrote:

My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.


This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor set 
of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity.




If we start thinking that 4.0 "has to be big enough" to justify the
numbering jump, and start expanding too much on the "yes" list, we
won't get this out in 2009. And, it won't serve the purpose of
delivering enough new stuff to keep folks excited while waiting for
the big UI items.

So, a couple of questions for us all:

1) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we restrict ourselves to a modest list
of improvements that will actually get coded this summer and tested
this fall?

2) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we resist ourselves to changes that
will not break existing theme products or well-constructed Plone 3 add
ons?


Isn't that already the promise of the 3.x series? I mean, to be keep 
backward compatibility with Plone 3.0 addons? I still think that some of 
these improvements should be included in one or more 3.x releases.




Ricardo



On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Ross Patterson  wrote:

Lennart Regebro 
writes:


On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 22:05, Ross Patterson  wrote:

Sorry if I'm resurrecting an already fairly resolved debate.  None of
the concerns I raise here are enough to vote -1 one calling it
4.0.  But if enough people feel as I do here, maybe we should discuss
a little further.  What about plone 3.9?

3.0.x was very buggy, and I think that has been somewhat saved by the
upgrades to 3.1 and 3.2 being so painless. I think it would be, for
that reason, a big mistake to introduce bigger changes in 3.X unless
we can make sure the upgrade is quite painless and the changes are
*very* stable.

Yeah, I guess trying to have a release line that can grow is trying to
have it both ways.  I'm very concerned about the expectations we've been
developing about Plone 4 and the impact that will have on perceptions
when we say, "Yeah, that's plone 5 now" or worse yet the even less
confidence inducing "Yeah, that's plone trunk now."  But I guess the
right response to that issue is to be more disciplined in our messaging
in the future and *not* talk about release numbers before the release
process has had a chance to weigh in.  IOW, any perceptual/expectation
problems we have from this may be our just desserts.  :)

+1 to calling it 4.0.  +1 to constraining ourselves to not include
additional disruptive changes in the newly established 4.0 line and thus
to only include them in subsequent major versions.  +100 to not talking
about version 5 until the 5 FWT has actually done enough of it's process
to have some formal establishment of expectations.

Then I'll just have to buck up and tell people that a better skinning
story will *not* being Plone 4 afterall and that I can't tell them it
will be in Plone 5 and that somehow they shouldn't be discouraged by
that.  :(

Ross


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[Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0, was Re: Plone 3.5

[Steve McMahon]

My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.

If we start thinking that 4.0 "has to be big enough" to justify the
numbering jump, and start expanding too much on the "yes" list, we
won't get this out in 2009. And, it won't serve the purpose of
delivering enough new stuff to keep folks excited while waiting for
the big UI items.

So, a couple of questions for us all:

1) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we restrict ourselves to a modest list
of improvements that will actually get coded this summer and tested
this fall?

2) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we resist ourselves to changes that
will not break existing theme products or well-constructed Plone 3 add
ons?

If we can agree to that and task Eric with enforcing it, I'm all for
calling "it" 4.0. In any case, Hanno's and collaborators have set us
on a great course.

Steve



On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Ross Patterson  wrote:
> Lennart Regebro 
> writes:
>
>> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 22:05, Ross Patterson  wrote:
>>> Sorry if I'm resurrecting an already fairly resolved debate.  None of
>>> the concerns I raise here are enough to vote -1 one calling it
>>> 4.0.  But if enough people feel as I do here, maybe we should discuss
>>> a little further.  What about plone 3.9?
>>
>> 3.0.x was very buggy, and I think that has been somewhat saved by the
>> upgrades to 3.1 and 3.2 being so painless. I think it would be, for
>> that reason, a big mistake to introduce bigger changes in 3.X unless
>> we can make sure the upgrade is quite painless and the changes are
>> *very* stable.
>
> Yeah, I guess trying to have a release line that can grow is trying to
> have it both ways.  I'm very concerned about the expectations we've been
> developing about Plone 4 and the impact that will have on perceptions
> when we say, "Yeah, that's plone 5 now" or worse yet the even less
> confidence inducing "Yeah, that's plone trunk now."  But I guess the
> right response to that issue is to be more disciplined in our messaging
> in the future and *not* talk about release numbers before the release
> process has had a chance to weigh in.  IOW, any perceptual/expectation
> problems we have from this may be our just desserts.  :)
>
> +1 to calling it 4.0.  +1 to constraining ourselves to not include
> additional disruptive changes in the newly established 4.0 line and thus
> to only include them in subsequent major versions.  +100 to not talking
> about version 5 until the 5 FWT has actually done enough of it's process
> to have some formal establishment of expectations.
>
> Then I'll just have to buck up and tell people that a better skinning
> story will *not* being Plone 4 afterall and that I can't tell them it
> will be in Plone 5 and that somehow they shouldn't be discouraged by
> that.  :(
>
> Ross
>
>
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> production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
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