Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 3.0 dates
+1 for me !
vds
On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 11:44 +0100, Martin Aspeli wrote:
> This is a good point. Why don't we try to push these dates (it's
> end-of-August after all), but let people know that if they are on
> holiday etc they should let it be known, so that we can either shift
> the dates or give some people a bit more time (we'll need to "stagger"
> the review of bundles anyway, so it may be possible to take some of
> them later).
>
> Martin
>
> On 7/31/06, Vincenzo Di Somma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm just worried that in August most people will be in
> holidays and they
> will not be able to provide the bundle.
>
> Maybe it is not a "real" issue but I just wanted to raise the
> problem.
> Thanks,
>
> vds
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 10:24 +0100, Martin Aspeli wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > - August 28: proposal freeze, fwt starts reviewing
> bundles
> > - September 25: fwt finished reviewing bundles
> > - Sep 25 - October 8: two week period during which
> bundles can
> > be
> > updated and re-reviewed based on the initial
> review
> >
> > I expect bundles will be worked on during the whole Aug
> 28-Oct 8
> > period. For that to work, we ought to give some initial
> feedback
> > quickly, so that we say "yes, this is a good idea" and make
> ourselves
> > (or this list or just plone-developers) available for people
> to get a
> > bit of coaching. The knowledge that someone is actively
> pushing a
> > bundle, and actively seeking ways of making it better and
> getting it
> > done is just as important as the completeness of the bundle
> on August
> > 28th!
> >
> >
> > - October 9:
> >
> > Did you miss one out? I assume you meant merge date?
> >
> >
> > - November 30: first beta release
> > - January 22: first release candidate
> > - March 12: release
> >
> > +1 for those dates *if* we can agree on them now and start
> hounding
> > people for bundles *this week*.
> >
> >
> > The basic idea behind these dates is that we need
> some extra
> > time to get
> > people moving on 3.0 and take the time needed to
> properly
> > integrate
> > the bundles. If we make some more noise about late
> betas and
> > rc1
> > hopefully we can get more upgrade feedback sooner.
> >
> > Indeed. Speaking from personal experience, I held up on
> trying 2.5
> > until it was quite late in the day, mostly from my own
> laziness. We
> > ought to make it as easy for people to evaluate as possible,
> by
> > providing installers (I guess we have nightly builds now)
> and bundles
> > that are known to work
> >
> > I'd also suggest that we have a rolling "Coming in 3.0"
> overview
> > document that gives people some tasters and some specifics
> ("to test
> > this feature now, download this and click here and here").
> >
> >
> >
> > And of course, we should be noisy on the lists to let people
> know
> > there is momentum, but that's my job :)
> >
> > Martin
> > ___
> > Framework-Team mailing list
> > Framework-Team@lists.plone.org
> > http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
> --
> Vincenzo Di Somma
> REFLAB (Studio Associato)
> design, development and consulting
> T: +39 349 756 54 60 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: www.reflab.com
> Weblog: http://www.reflab.com/blogs/vdsblog
>
>
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> ___
> Framework-Team mailing list
> Framework-Team@lists.plone.org
> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
>
>
>
--
Vincenzo Di Somma
REFLAB (Studio Associato)
design, development and consulting
T: +39 349 756 54 60 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: www.reflab.com
Weblog: http://www.reflab.com/blogs/vdsblog
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Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 3.0 dates
This is a good point. Why don't we try to push these dates (it's end-of-August after all), but let people know that if they are on holiday etc they should let it be known, so that we can either shift the dates or give some people a bit more time (we'll need to "stagger" the review of bundles anyway, so it may be possible to take some of them later).
MartinOn 7/31/06, Vincenzo Di Somma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm just worried that in August most people will be in holidays and theywill not be able to provide the bundle.Maybe it is not a "real" issue but I just wanted to raise the problem.Thanks,
vdsOn Mon, 2006-07-31 at 10:24 +0100, Martin Aspeli wrote:> Hi guys,>> - August 28: proposal freeze, fwt starts reviewing bundles> - September 25: fwt finished reviewing bundles
> - Sep 25 - October 8: two week period during which bundles can> be> updated and re-reviewed based on the initial review>> I expect bundles will be worked on during the whole Aug 28-Oct 8
> period. For that to work, we ought to give some initial feedback> quickly, so that we say "yes, this is a good idea" and make ourselves> (or this list or just plone-developers) available for people to get a
> bit of coaching. The knowledge that someone is actively pushing a> bundle, and actively seeking ways of making it better and getting it> done is just as important as the completeness of the bundle on August
> 28th!>>> - October 9:>> Did you miss one out? I assume you meant merge date?>>> - November 30: first beta release> - January 22: first release candidate
> - March 12: release>> +1 for those dates *if* we can agree on them now and start hounding> people for bundles *this week*.>>> The basic idea behind these dates is that we need some extra
> time to get> people moving on 3.0 and take the time needed to properly> integrate> the bundles. If we make some more noise about late betas and> rc1
> hopefully we can get more upgrade feedback sooner.>> Indeed. Speaking from personal experience, I held up on trying 2.5> until it was quite late in the day, mostly from my own laziness. We
> ought to make it as easy for people to evaluate as possible, by> providing installers (I guess we have nightly builds now) and bundles> that are known to work>> I'd also suggest that we have a rolling "Coming in
3.0" overview> document that gives people some tasters and some specifics ("to test> this feature now, download this and click here and here"). And of course, we should be noisy on the lists to let people know
> there is momentum, but that's my job :)>> Martin> ___> Framework-Team mailing list> Framework-Team@lists.plone.org
> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team--Vincenzo Di SommaREFLAB (Studio Associato)design, development and consulting
T: +39 349 756 54 60 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: www.reflab.comWeblog: http://www.reflab.com/blogs/vdsblog
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Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 3.0 dates
I'm just worried that in August most people will be in holidays and they
will not be able to provide the bundle.
Maybe it is not a "real" issue but I just wanted to raise the problem.
Thanks,
vds
On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 10:24 +0100, Martin Aspeli wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> - August 28: proposal freeze, fwt starts reviewing bundles
> - September 25: fwt finished reviewing bundles
> - Sep 25 - October 8: two week period during which bundles can
> be
> updated and re-reviewed based on the initial review
>
> I expect bundles will be worked on during the whole Aug 28-Oct 8
> period. For that to work, we ought to give some initial feedback
> quickly, so that we say "yes, this is a good idea" and make ourselves
> (or this list or just plone-developers) available for people to get a
> bit of coaching. The knowledge that someone is actively pushing a
> bundle, and actively seeking ways of making it better and getting it
> done is just as important as the completeness of the bundle on August
> 28th!
>
>
> - October 9:
>
> Did you miss one out? I assume you meant merge date?
>
>
> - November 30: first beta release
> - January 22: first release candidate
> - March 12: release
>
> +1 for those dates *if* we can agree on them now and start hounding
> people for bundles *this week*.
>
>
> The basic idea behind these dates is that we need some extra
> time to get
> people moving on 3.0 and take the time needed to properly
> integrate
> the bundles. If we make some more noise about late betas and
> rc1
> hopefully we can get more upgrade feedback sooner.
>
> Indeed. Speaking from personal experience, I held up on trying 2.5
> until it was quite late in the day, mostly from my own laziness. We
> ought to make it as easy for people to evaluate as possible, by
> providing installers (I guess we have nightly builds now) and bundles
> that are known to work
>
> I'd also suggest that we have a rolling "Coming in 3.0" overview
> document that gives people some tasters and some specifics ("to test
> this feature now, download this and click here and here").
>
>
>
> And of course, we should be noisy on the lists to let people know
> there is momentum, but that's my job :)
>
> Martin
> ___
> Framework-Team mailing list
> Framework-Team@lists.plone.org
> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
--
Vincenzo Di Somma
REFLAB (Studio Associato)
design, development and consulting
T: +39 349 756 54 60 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: www.reflab.com
Weblog: http://www.reflab.com/blogs/vdsblog
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Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 3.0 dates
Hi guys,- August 28: proposal freeze, fwt starts reviewing bundles- September 25: fwt finished reviewing bundles
- Sep 25 - October 8: two week period during which bundles can be updated and re-reviewed based on the initial reviewI expect bundles will be worked on during the whole Aug 28-Oct 8 period. For that to work, we ought to give some initial feedback quickly, so that we say "yes, this is a good idea" and make ourselves (or this list or just plone-developers) available for people to get a bit of coaching. The knowledge that someone is actively pushing a bundle, and actively seeking ways of making it better and getting it done is just as important as the completeness of the bundle on August 28th!
- October 9:Did you miss one out? I assume you meant merge date?
- November 30: first beta release- January 22: first release candidate
- March 12: release+1 for those dates *if* we can agree on them now and start hounding people for bundles *this week*.
The basic idea behind these dates is that we need some extra time to getpeople moving on 3.0 and take the time needed to properly integratethe bundles. If we make some more noise about late betas and rc1hopefully we can get more upgrade feedback sooner.
Indeed. Speaking from personal experience, I held up on trying 2.5 until it was quite late in the day, mostly from my own laziness. We ought to make it as easy for people to evaluate as possible, by providing installers (I guess we have nightly builds now) and bundles that are known to work
I'd also suggest that we have a rolling "Coming in 3.0" overview document that gives people some tasters and some specifics ("to test this feature now, download this and click here and here").
And of course, we should be noisy on the lists to let people know there is momentum, but that's my job :)Martin
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Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 3.0 dates
Based on earlier discussions I'm thinking of the following dates: - August 28: proposal freeze, fwt starts reviewing bundles - September 25: fwt finished reviewing bundles - Sep 25 - October 8: two week period during which bundles can be updated and re-reviewed based on the initial review - October 9: - November 30: first beta release - January 22: first release candidate - March 12: release The basic idea behind these dates is that we need some extra time to get people moving on 3.0 and take the time needed to properly integrate the bundles. If we make some more noise about late betas and rc1 hopefully we can get more upgrade feedback sooner. Wichert. Previously Martin Aspeli wrote: > Alexander Limi wrote: > > >+100. It can't be timed the way it is currently suggested, nothing will > >be ready by that measure. > > Also note that we the framework team probably need 2-4 weeks just to > look at the bundles and make some initial assessment. If we're going to > be merging them one month after bundle date... :) > > I still think an end-of-August bundle date is good. But the longer we > discuss this, the more we have to push it back. > > I'd say a decent measure is to give people one month from when we start > announcing and pushing dates to get bundles in order, and set the right > expectations for how complete a bundle must be. > > The end goal is actually quite simple - make sure we can get stable code > into Plone 3.0. Work backwards from that, and let people plead their > case on how much time they have, when, and how much remains, and we can > take a decision. > > But we need to give them some time, since at least I would be much more > motivated to push forward with some code if I knew there was a good > chance it'd land in 3.0 (it's been reviewed and accepted in principle) > than if it was all just unsure (maybe the framework team don't even want > it in 3.0, finished or not?). We can't expect that people will produce > stellar code in isolation without our guidance and encouragement. :) > > Martin > > > ___ > Framework-Team mailing list > Framework-Team@lists.plone.org > http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team -- Wichert Akkerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>It is simple to make things. http://www.wiggy.net/ It is hard to make things simple. ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 3.0 dates
Alexander Limi wrote: +100. It can't be timed the way it is currently suggested, nothing will be ready by that measure. Also note that we the framework team probably need 2-4 weeks just to look at the bundles and make some initial assessment. If we're going to be merging them one month after bundle date... :) I still think an end-of-August bundle date is good. But the longer we discuss this, the more we have to push it back. I'd say a decent measure is to give people one month from when we start announcing and pushing dates to get bundles in order, and set the right expectations for how complete a bundle must be. The end goal is actually quite simple - make sure we can get stable code into Plone 3.0. Work backwards from that, and let people plead their case on how much time they have, when, and how much remains, and we can take a decision. But we need to give them some time, since at least I would be much more motivated to push forward with some code if I knew there was a good chance it'd land in 3.0 (it's been reviewed and accepted in principle) than if it was all just unsure (maybe the framework team don't even want it in 3.0, finished or not?). We can't expect that people will produce stellar code in isolation without our guidance and encouragement. :) Martin ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 3.0 dates
On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 03:49:43 -0700, Martin Aspeli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: September 25, feature freeze (all features have been merged) This worries me more. How complete must a review bundle be? I'd like to put the bar at "useful and achievable". That is, we should recommend a bundle if it looks like the functionality is architectually sound and meets a real use case in a good way, and if we believe it can be done in time for the release. That will probably be dependent on the author producing a plausible plan for how it will get done. So maybe what I'm suggesting is that we put a bit more of the gap inbetween bundle and merge, rather than put it before bundles are going in, and encourage people to submit bundles that contain a clear plan, not just near-finished code. +100. It can't be timed the way it is currently suggested, nothing will be ready by that measure. The idea is that people work on the bundles. Bundles can be rejected if they are found to be lacking, before the merge. I do agree that an early bundle date is good, since it makes it possible for people like me (who will likely be working on the UI for most of the bundles where needed) to participate much more easily. http://plone.org/products/plone/roadmap suggests Wichert may have something to do with that ;-) Wichert is officially the release manager for 3.0, yes. -- _ Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com _ Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 3.0 dates
Hi guys, > August 21, proposal freeze (review bundles must be ready)I don't think this is too bad - perhaps push back by 2 week or so, but definitely start getting the word out now and make people start acting. > September 25, feature freeze (all features have been merged)This worries me more. How complete must a review bundle be? For example, I'll probably be involved in at least three bundles: - The contentrules stuff that's Markus' SoC project - we'll definitely have the basic infrastructure and tests in place, as well as documentation. But there's more work to be done on the Plone UI and the implementation of more specific rules, that may also need the help of others. - The plone.portlets stuff - Pete Rosales is doing this for SoC, but he's gone AWOL and we're a bit worried about it. Dorneles, Geir and I are planning (hoping) to get this into a similar kind of shape as the contentrules - basic infrastructure and tests in place, but more work around specific portlets and UI integration. - The content menu componentisation - this is mostly done, but needs some merge work and a bit of UI strapping on.so...having one month to complete all that seems very little. Bear in mind most people won't have several hours every day of the week, or even every week. Also, it may be easier to find help if a review bundle is in place. If these bundles are accepted, I certainly intend to get them finished! I'd like to put the bar at "useful and achievable". That is, we should recommend a bundle if it looks like the functionality is architectually sound and meets a real use case in a good way, and if we believe it can be done in time for the release. That will probably be dependent on the author producing a plausible plan for how it will get done. Note that bundle != merge. It may be that some bundle is rejected a bit later in the process if it becomes clear that it's stalled.Another option I'd like to consider, is that sometimes a bundle may be reviewed and nurtured, but we may ask that it lives outside Plone. For example, in some cases we may be able to add a viewlet or an even or a hook in Plone (low-risk) to let some feature live as an add-on component that then isn't time critical for the release. Thus, we could accept a bundle that ended up only containing very small changes to Plone core (and those changes only would be subject to the rest of the roadmap dates as far as we're concerned). October 22, first beta releas December 18, first release candidateJanuary 24, expected releaseSo maybe what I'm suggesting is that we put a bit more of the gap inbetween bundle and merge, rather than put it before bundles are going in, and encourage people to submit bundles that contain a clear plan, not just near-finished code. The main problem with this roadmap is that some of us had a discussionon IRC and we felt that the dates are far too soon. Right now nobody really thinks about Plone 3.0 or puts any time in it, we aren't reallyputting any time into Plone 2.5 right now either... we cannot seriouslystop accepting features in four weeks.Before there's an announcement and before people see a big fat deadline, they will slack (read: do other important things). We also need to not be too arrogant - people have personal lives :) If someone says, I can do this, but I need three more days, I think we should give them three more days, and work with them to get the bundles in the right format etc. It's all about lowering the barrier to contributing as much as possible. The result of our little IRC discussion was that we wanted to shift allthose dates two month back. With the PloneConf at the end of October it might make more sense to only push the deadlines back one month, so wewould have a feature freeze right before PloneConf which would give Limithe option to actually talk about the new shiny features of 3.0 in his Keynote ;)I think he can talk about anything for which there is a review bundle. Some bundles will be further along than others (and easier to show off). Some we may have more confidence in than others. We can work with him to take a view as to what's safe to promise and what's "hopefully-ware". If we would aim for the one-month-back option we would have anothereight weeks until proposal freeze. Actually I'm not sure what the better option is here and think we needsome discussion before proposing anything. Which leads to the nextproblem that we are only meant to propose those dates to the release manager for Plone 3.0 who hasn't been found yet AFAIK.http://plone.org/products/plone/roadmap suggests Wichert may have something to do with that ;-) Martin ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 3.0 dates
Alexander Limi wrote: Hi Framework Team, We haven't seen any official dates for PLIP freeze, bundles, alpha/beta/RC/final from you yet for 3.0. Can you see if you can get some dates down asap, so we can start communicating them to people? Maybe I should be doing that, ey? :) Hanno, as the guardian of dates, could you give us the latest list to make sure we all agree and there's no confusion, and then we'll start getting the word out. Martin ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
