Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
calm down tim you're getting too excited .. #boring On Mar 31, 2015 10:35 PM, Tim Halloran televis...@hotmail.com wrote: I just want to unsubscribe from you. Tim Sent from my iPad On Mar 31, 2015, at 9:34 PM, Cari Machet carimac...@gmail.com wrote: you cant unsubscribe this way and why do people do this kind of 'pronouncement' - its like acting out? dont open the emails in a thread if its so horrific - what would you fuckers do in a war zone for fuck sake? i dont care if you leave the list really if you are so whiny -- Cari Machet NYC 646-436-7795 carimac...@gmail.com AIM carismachet Syria +963-099 277 3243 Amman +962 077 636 9407 Berlin +49 152 11779219 Reykjavik +354 894 8650 Twitter: @carimachet https://twitter.com/carimachet 7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187 Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without permission is strictly prohibited. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Tim - You can (and should)! Just set up a filter to have emails from anyone you'd rather not hear from sent directly to your trash. Problem solved, listserv members reduced by one. Separates the good stuff from the vitrol. Sasha - as a long-time member of this list, and more importantly, and artist and a teacher, I whole-heartedly support your response in this thread. It is one thing to offer a disagreement over the merits of presenting one work or another in a class, as well as to offer different strategies that have been successful in the past when presenting this work, but someone who seems to not know you personally did exactly what you named: attacked your ability as a teacher, and dictated your responsibility to your students. You have every right to respond directly, and publicly, to this criticism, not matter who it's coming from (though you don't need me, or anyone else to tell you that). I find it shameful that your response has been made out to be the cause of the return to flameworks. Jason Halprin jihalp...@gmail.com On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Tim Halloran televis...@hotmail.com wrote: I just want to unsubscribe from you. Tim Sent from my iPad ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
I think Sasha knows the spirit of her comments is supported both on and off this list, but I wanted to openly add my voice to the chorus of supporters. And I say this as someone who counts Wavelength among my very favorite films, and who has shown it to students with all the passion, fervor, and sense of curiosity I can muster, and who still has had students say they wanted to set themselves on fire watching it. :/ P.S. I have pre-emptively told myself to heartily fuck off. On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 8:08 AM, Jason Halprin jihalp...@gmail.com wrote: Tim - You can (and should)! Just set up a filter to have emails from anyone you'd rather not hear from sent directly to your trash. Problem solved, listserv members reduced by one. Separates the good stuff from the vitrol. Sasha - as a long-time member of this list, and more importantly, and artist and a teacher, I whole-heartedly support your response in this thread. It is one thing to offer a disagreement over the merits of presenting one work or another in a class, as well as to offer different strategies that have been successful in the past when presenting this work, but someone who seems to not know you personally did exactly what you named: attacked your ability as a teacher, and dictated your responsibility to your students. You have every right to respond directly, and publicly, to this criticism, not matter who it's coming from (though you don't need me, or anyone else to tell you that). I find it shameful that your response has been made out to be the cause of the return to flameworks. Jason Halprin jihalp...@gmail.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Thanks, Pip! Cyber-bullying is such a Western cowardice activity... it's a little ironic to see it positioned as righteous. On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Pip Chodorov framewo...@re-voir.com wrote: Yes, the accounts of the subscribers who are posting off topic are now being moderated. - Pip Chodorov At 11:38 -0400 1/04/15, Edward Choi wrote: Can whoever moderates/administers this list please intervene? This got out of hand 24 hours ago. edo ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Yes, the accounts of the subscribers who are posting off topic are now being moderated. - Pip Chodorov At 11:38 -0400 1/04/15, Edward Choi wrote: Can whoever moderates/administers this list please intervene? This got out of hand 24 hours ago. edo ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Jen you have no clue why those people were told to fuck off ?? try in future to parse information please Is it dificult to understand ethics violations or you just dont even bother to consider ethics at all because you comfortably had a fucking cup of tea this morning with goddamn sugar and cream in it and woman can do whatever the fuck they want if they are western Your little whiny western school children maybe should be shown footage of monks self immulating in order to get a clue and maybe you yourself should look at some war footage of what your precious west has done to vietnam or iraqi men woman children plants animals art books world heritage sites and consider ethics for 2 fucking seconds of your blip of a life The unconsciousness of babbling support of a whiny western priviledged fuck is repulsive On Apr 1, 2015 6:39 AM, Jen Proctor proctor.jenni...@gmail.com wrote: I think Sasha knows the spirit of her comments is supported both on and off this list, but I wanted to openly add my voice to the chorus of supporters. And I say this as someone who counts Wavelength among my very favorite films, and who has shown it to students with all the passion, fervor, and sense of curiosity I can muster, and who still has had students say they wanted to set themselves on fire watching it. :/ P.S. I have pre-emptively told myself to heartily fuck off. On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 8:08 AM, Jason Halprin jihalp...@gmail.com wrote: Tim - You can (and should)! Just set up a filter to have emails from anyone you'd rather not hear from sent directly to your trash. Problem solved, listserv members reduced by one. Separates the good stuff from the vitrol. Sasha - as a long-time member of this list, and more importantly, and artist and a teacher, I whole-heartedly support your response in this thread. It is one thing to offer a disagreement over the merits of presenting one work or another in a class, as well as to offer different strategies that have been successful in the past when presenting this work, but someone who seems to not know you personally did exactly what you named: attacked your ability as a teacher, and dictated your responsibility to your students. You have every right to respond directly, and publicly, to this criticism, not matter who it's coming from (though you don't need me, or anyone else to tell you that). I find it shameful that your response has been made out to be the cause of the return to flameworks. Jason Halprin jihalp...@gmail.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
agreed kindly, e On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Edward Choi e...@uchicago.edu wrote: Can whoever moderates/administers this list please intervene? This got out of hand 24 hours ago. edo On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Cari Machet carimac...@gmail.com wrote: Jen you have no clue why those people were told to fuck off ?? try in future to parse information please Is it dificult to understand ethics violations or you just dont even bother to consider ethics at all because you comfortably had a fucking cup of tea this morning with goddamn sugar and cream in it and woman can do whatever the fuck they want if they are western Your little whiny western school children maybe should be shown footage of monks self immulating in order to get a clue and maybe you yourself should look at some war footage of what your precious west has done to vietnam or iraqi men woman children plants animals art books world heritage sites and consider ethics for 2 fucking seconds of your blip of a life The unconsciousness of babbling support of a whiny western priviledged fuck is repulsive On Apr 1, 2015 6:39 AM, Jen Proctor proctor.jenni...@gmail.com wrote: I think Sasha knows the spirit of her comments is supported both on and off this list, but I wanted to openly add my voice to the chorus of supporters. And I say this as someone who counts Wavelength among my very favorite films, and who has shown it to students with all the passion, fervor, and sense of curiosity I can muster, and who still has had students say they wanted to set themselves on fire watching it. :/ P.S. I have pre-emptively told myself to heartily fuck off. On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 8:08 AM, Jason Halprin jihalp...@gmail.com wrote: Tim - You can (and should)! Just set up a filter to have emails from anyone you'd rather not hear from sent directly to your trash. Problem solved, listserv members reduced by one. Separates the good stuff from the vitrol. Sasha - as a long-time member of this list, and more importantly, and artist and a teacher, I whole-heartedly support your response in this thread. It is one thing to offer a disagreement over the merits of presenting one work or another in a class, as well as to offer different strategies that have been successful in the past when presenting this work, but someone who seems to not know you personally did exactly what you named: attacked your ability as a teacher, and dictated your responsibility to your students. You have every right to respond directly, and publicly, to this criticism, not matter who it's coming from (though you don't need me, or anyone else to tell you that). I find it shameful that your response has been made out to be the cause of the return to flameworks. Jason Halprin jihalp...@gmail.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks -- mobile. 917.704.5664 musicofthehemispheres.com elisadaprato.com *“I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal.” *- Groucho Marx ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
I'm with you Kelly and everything you're saying, even though I have only followed this thread intermittently. A bit more maturity and understanding on all sides seems like it would not hurt. For what it is worth, and in my humble opinion, Sadie Benning's It Wasn't Love is one of the greatest works of cinema I have ever seen, barring no one and nothing. It will always have a special place in my own personal canon, which I only hope is out of step with accepted/entrenched/official ones. Cordially, Greg de Cuir, JrSelector/Curator, Alternative Film/Video Belgrade From: Kelly Gallagher ke...@purpleriot.com To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood Sasha, I appreciate your intelligent and helpful response bringing some radical women filmmakers into the original post. Sometimes many people in this space seem to get very stuck on notions of the canon which means that important work like that of Sadie Benning and Hito Steyerl gets swiped aside. As a young woman experimental filmmaker I appreciate your challenging and provoking comments in your original post. As a young woman experimental filmmaker I also stand fervently and explicitly against sexist and patronizing comments, tone, and antagonizing. I'm a little taken aback that more people haven't loudly and explicitly critiqued the sexism and sexist patronizing/condescension that was thrown at Sasha and I'm kind of surprised and disappointed. Frameworks will continue to lose many radical and important filmmakers, thinkers, and feminists, especially many young filmmakers, over deplorable vitriol such as what's played out here in this incident.In solidarity with Sasha, Kim, and all women filmmakers in experimental spaces who demand to stop being condescended to. -Kelly On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Tim Halloran televis...@hotmail.com wrote: Calm down. Thanks for adding nothing to the conversation. Tim Sent from my iPad On Mar 31, 2015, at 8:09 AM, Cari Machet carimac...@gmail.com wrote: gene owes no fucking apology in any way you on the other hand need to do some hefty work on yourself - obliviousness to self critique is a frightening place to even witness a hearty fuck off to you sasha On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 4:08 PM, chris bravo iamdir...@gmail.com wrote: Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength your rhetoric wasn't excessive it was offensive. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Sasha Waters Freyer swfre...@vcu.edu wrote: Mr. Youngblood, Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength offended you. However, turning a critical disagreement over a 48-year-old film is no excuse to attack my ability as a teacher or to dictate my responsibility to my students. I will chalk this exchange up to your passion for Snow's work, and not an inherent rudeness of your character. I accept your apology in advance. Yours, Sasha Waters Freyer On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:02 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote: Send FrameWorks mailing list submissions to frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com You can reach the person managing the list at frameworks-ow...@jonasmekasfilms.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of FrameWorks digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Bernard Roddy) 2. Looking to purchase a JK Optical Printer (Christopher Harris) 3. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Bernard Roddy) 4. 3 sound works (Bernard Roddy) 5. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (direc...@lift.on.ca) 6. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Amanda Christie) 7. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Kelly Gallagher) 8. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Francisco Torres) 9. TONIGHT 3.30 7pm - Jonas Mekas 365 Day Project - Part 3 - March at Microscope, Mekas in person w. pizza and rootbeer (LBurchill) 10. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (George, Sherman) 11. New photo essay posted to flickr (Emile Tobenfeld) 12. ed Reflections of Life: American Indian and Indigenous filmmaker screening series this week at California Institute of the Arts
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
More critical debate about what films to recommend to be introduced to, and discussed and less affected fallacies. But … Sam Taylor-Wood - glossy Warhol derived, made easy for the international art market, and what has she made recently? that great call to feminism with her 50 shades of what? (and its not even monochrome). Rob On 1 Apr 2015, at 19:01, Greg DeCuir g dec...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm with you Kelly and everything you're saying, even though I have only followed this thread intermittently. A bit more maturity and understanding on all sides seems like it would not hurt. For what it is worth, and in my humble opinion, Sadie Benning's It Wasn't Love is one of the greatest works of cinema I have ever seen, barring no one and nothing. It will always have a special place in my own personal canon, which I only hope is out of step with accepted/entrenched/official ones. Cordially, Greg de Cuir, Jr Selector/Curator, Alternative Film/Video Belgrade From: Kelly Gallagher ke...@purpleriot.com To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood Sasha, I appreciate your intelligent and helpful response bringing some radical women filmmakers into the original post. Sometimes many people in this space seem to get very stuck on notions of the canon which means that important work like that of Sadie Benning and Hito Steyerl gets swiped aside. As a young woman experimental filmmaker I appreciate your challenging and provoking comments in your original post. As a young woman experimental filmmaker I also stand fervently and explicitly against sexist and patronizing comments, tone, and antagonizing. I'm a little taken aback that more people haven't loudly and explicitly critiqued the sexism and sexist patronizing/condescension that was thrown at Sasha and I'm kind of surprised and disappointed. Frameworks will continue to lose many radical and important filmmakers, thinkers, and feminists, especially many young filmmakers, over deplorable vitriol such as what's played out here in this incident. In solidarity with Sasha, Kim, and all women filmmakers in experimental spaces who demand to stop being condescended to. -Kelly On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Tim Halloran televis...@hotmail.com wrote: Calm down. Thanks for adding nothing to the conversation. Tim Sent from my iPad On Mar 31, 2015, at 8:09 AM, Cari Machet carimac...@gmail.com wrote: gene owes no fucking apology in any way you on the other hand need to do some hefty work on yourself - obliviousness to self critique is a frightening place to even witness a hearty fuck off to you sasha On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 4:08 PM, chris bravo iamdir...@gmail.com wrote: Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength your rhetoric wasn't excessive it was offensive. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Sasha Waters Freyer swfre...@vcu.edu wrote: Mr. Youngblood, Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength offended you. However, turning a critical disagreement over a 48-year-old film is no excuse to attack my ability as a teacher or to dictate my responsibility to my students. I will chalk this exchange up to your passion for Snow's work, and not an inherent rudeness of your character. I accept your apology in advance. Yours, Sasha Waters Freyer On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:02 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote: Send FrameWorks mailing list submissions to frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com You can reach the person managing the list at frameworks-ow...@jonasmekasfilms.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of FrameWorks digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Bernard Roddy) 2. Looking to purchase a JK Optical Printer (Christopher Harris) 3. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Bernard Roddy) 4. 3 sound works (Bernard Roddy) 5. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (direc...@lift.on.ca) 6. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Amanda Christie) 7. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Kelly Gallagher) 8. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Please unsubscribe me from the list. I thank everyone for the knowledge and wisdom they have shared. The current tone is unfortunate. Perhaps people could email each other privately or meet for coffee to discuss their differences? I have very much appreciated all the knowledge that wisdom shared over the years, thank you again to this generous community. gisele On 15-03-31 10:59 PM, Cari Machet carimac...@gmail.com wrote: listen i am NOT a white person i dont react with a smile when i am faced with someone that doesnt even think about humility and self critique i would NEVER tell other people to 'calm down' it also lacks humility i went to art school where thankfully i was taught the art of critique and self critique which i think is an incredible gift - may others find this profound tool or even remotely think about the concept kelly you can also fuck off for playing the gender card and in such an offhanded way - disgusting and one of the many reasons i despise the very word feminist On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 10:08 PM, Elizabeth McMahon elizmcma...@gmail.com wrote: I apologize, in general, for whatever. I don't want to add to polemics that disdain and dissuade an inclusive environment. Like Sasha, I barely contribute, to most listservs, for fear of attack and ridicule, and yet I did apparently myself, however, depending on your POV, regarding her remarks directed at Gene Youngblood, which really irked me, and I do not apologize for them. I hope their tone was professional, but if not, then I was wrong. I know I can be a smart ass, but I did have fundamental problems with Sasha's public comments of Gene's remarks, and I make no apology for them. Elizabeth McMahon On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 2:41 PM, chris bravo iamdir...@gmail.com wrote: Saying that a film makes students want to commit suicide isn't a critique, its an offensive derogatory statement, which is directed not just towards the filmmaker, but towards her students especially. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 1:27 PM Dave Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com wrote: Chill out, people! This is a Listserv. People write short posts quickly, and hit 'Send'. Rhetorical excess comes with the territory as we dash off our thoughts w/o reflecting deeply about whether our wording will read to others with the meanings they had for us when they popped into our heads. I took Sasha's OP as meant to advocate for films that have a sort of perspective not-yet presented in the thread -- works one perhaps could call more 'post-modern' engagements with culture and identity. I took the crack about Wavelength as essentially tangential and polemic -- an observation that many contemporary students are not much engaged with the aesthetic concerns of that work. It's not clear whether Sasha's pique was directed at Wavelength specifically or 'mid-century High modernism' in general -- i.e. maybe all 'structural film' and/or Brakhage abstractions etc.?? Regardless, intentionally or not, her language was destined to stir the pot, make some folks feel poked with a stick, and fire off testy replies. No film is beyond criticism, including observations that whatever it's merits for other situations, it's a poor choice for a given programmer or teacher's goals in addressing the specific audiences they have at hand. Sasha's snark was phrased as too universal: seeming to suggest Wavelength is no longer any good to ANY group of curious, excited young artists. But, indeed, I'm sure there ARE groups of curious, excited young artists without a background in cinema who would find Wavelength alienating, at least initially, and it's perfectly valid to pass on that film for an introduction to experimental film in favor of something more immediately engaging to the group at hand. As Gene so pungently observed, the problem starts with the absurdity of Donal's original query. First, the 3 films concept makes no sense, since experimental films range in length from a few minutes to several hours. (My gag 3: Star Spangled to Death, Sleep, The Extravagent Shadows... no intermissions or bathroom breaks!) Second, essential is just silly and off-point. Unlike Hollywood films directed at mass audiences and respecting a common set of conventions, experimental works are often very personal, and incredibly varied in form and content. Thus, what works are and aren't essential is not remotely universal, but conditional and contingent on for whom? and for what purpose? Third, this variety and specificity means trying to crowd-source a list of '3 essentials' is utter folly, that can only lead to unproductive arguments if people play along. In the thread OP, Donal didn't tell us anything about his own approach to the realm of the moving image or what kinds of art practices and aesthetics the folks attending the workshops will be coming from. For all we know, the attendees could all be middle-aged ceramicists or landscape painters.
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
listen i am NOT a white person i dont react with a smile when i am faced with someone that doesnt even think about humility and self critique i would NEVER tell other people to 'calm down' it also lacks humility i went to art school where thankfully i was taught the art of critique and self critique which i think is an incredible gift - may others find this profound tool or even remotely think about the concept kelly you can also fuck off for playing the gender card and in such an offhanded way - disgusting and one of the many reasons i despise the very word feminist On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 10:08 PM, Elizabeth McMahon elizmcma...@gmail.com wrote: I apologize, in general, for whatever. I don't want to add to polemics that disdain and dissuade an inclusive environment. Like Sasha, I barely contribute, to most listservs, for fear of attack and ridicule, and yet I did apparently myself, however, depending on your POV, regarding her remarks directed at Gene Youngblood, which really irked me, and I do not apologize for them. I hope their tone was professional, but if not, then I was wrong. I know I can be a smart ass, but I did have fundamental problems with Sasha's public comments of Gene's remarks, and I make no apology for them. Elizabeth McMahon On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 2:41 PM, chris bravo iamdir...@gmail.com wrote: Saying that a film makes students want to commit suicide isn't a critique, its an offensive derogatory statement, which is directed not just towards the filmmaker, but towards her students especially. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 1:27 PM Dave Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com wrote: Chill out, people! This is a Listserv. People write short posts quickly, and hit 'Send'. Rhetorical excess comes with the territory as we dash off our thoughts w/o reflecting deeply about whether our wording will read to others with the meanings they had for us when they popped into our heads. I took Sasha's OP as meant to advocate for films that have a sort of perspective not-yet presented in the thread -- works one perhaps could call more 'post-modern' engagements with culture and identity. I took the crack about Wavelength as essentially tangential and polemic -- an observation that many contemporary students are not much engaged with the aesthetic concerns of that work. It's not clear whether Sasha's pique was directed at Wavelength specifically or 'mid-century High modernism' in general -- i.e. maybe all 'structural film' and/or Brakhage abstractions etc.?? Regardless, intentionally or not, her language was destined to stir the pot, make some folks feel poked with a stick, and fire off testy replies. No film is beyond criticism, including observations that whatever it's merits for other situations, it's a poor choice for a given programmer or teacher's goals in addressing the specific audiences they have at hand. Sasha's snark was phrased as too universal: seeming to suggest Wavelength is no longer any good to ANY group of curious, excited young artists. But, indeed, I'm sure there ARE groups of curious, excited young artists without a background in cinema who would find Wavelength alienating, at least initially, and it's perfectly valid to pass on that film for an introduction to experimental film in favor of something more immediately engaging to the group at hand. As Gene so pungently observed, the problem starts with the absurdity of Donal's original query. First, the 3 films concept makes no sense, since experimental films range in length from a few minutes to several hours. (My gag 3: Star Spangled to Death, Sleep, The Extravagent Shadows... no intermissions or bathroom breaks!) Second, essential is just silly and off-point. Unlike Hollywood films directed at mass audiences and respecting a common set of conventions, experimental works are often very personal, and incredibly varied in form and content. Thus, what works are and aren't essential is not remotely universal, but conditional and contingent on for whom? and for what purpose? Third, this variety and specificity means trying to crowd-source a list of '3 essentials' is utter folly, that can only lead to unproductive arguments if people play along. In the thread OP, Donal didn't tell us anything about his own approach to the realm of the moving image or what kinds of art practices and aesthetics the folks attending the workshops will be coming from. For all we know, the attendees could all be middle-aged ceramicists or landscape painters. Ultimately, he needs to pick works that speak to him in some way he thinks will enable him to use them to engage 'noobs'. So it is with any instance of programming films. The work must 'fit' the programmer, the audience, and the purpose. Given the lack of info in the query, responses have (as one would expect) presumed teaching or exhibition situations with which the posters are familiar: Andy and Gene spoke of their students; Sasha referred to YOUNG
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
you cant unsubscribe this way and why do people do this kind of 'pronouncement' - its like acting out? dont open the emails in a thread if its so horrific - what would you fuckers do in a war zone for fuck sake? i dont care if you leave the list really if you are so whiny On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Gisèle Gordon gis...@urbannation.com wrote: Please unsubscribe me from the list. I thank everyone for the knowledge and wisdom they have shared. The current tone is unfortunate. Perhaps people could email each other privately or meet for coffee to discuss their differences? I have very much appreciated all the knowledge that wisdom shared over the years, thank you again to this generous community. gisele On 15-03-31 10:59 PM, Cari Machet carimac...@gmail.com wrote: listen i am NOT a white person i dont react with a smile when i am faced with someone that doesnt even think about humility and self critique i would NEVER tell other people to 'calm down' it also lacks humility i went to art school where thankfully i was taught the art of critique and self critique which i think is an incredible gift - may others find this profound tool or even remotely think about the concept kelly you can also fuck off for playing the gender card and in such an offhanded way - disgusting and one of the many reasons i despise the very word feminist On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 10:08 PM, Elizabeth McMahon elizmcma...@gmail.com wrote: I apologize, in general, for whatever. I don't want to add to polemics that disdain and dissuade an inclusive environment. Like Sasha, I barely contribute, to most listservs, for fear of attack and ridicule, and yet I did apparently myself, however, depending on your POV, regarding her remarks directed at Gene Youngblood, which really irked me, and I do not apologize for them. I hope their tone was professional, but if not, then I was wrong. I know I can be a smart ass, but I did have fundamental problems with Sasha's public comments of Gene's remarks, and I make no apology for them. Elizabeth McMahon On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 2:41 PM, chris bravo iamdir...@gmail.com wrote: Saying that a film makes students want to commit suicide isn't a critique, its an offensive derogatory statement, which is directed not just towards the filmmaker, but towards her students especially. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 1:27 PM Dave Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com wrote: Chill out, people! This is a Listserv. People write short posts quickly, and hit 'Send'. Rhetorical excess comes with the territory as we dash off our thoughts w/o reflecting deeply about whether our wording will read to others with the meanings they had for us when they popped into our heads. I took Sasha's OP as meant to advocate for films that have a sort of perspective not-yet presented in the thread -- works one perhaps could call more 'post-modern' engagements with culture and identity. I took the crack about Wavelength as essentially tangential and polemic -- an observation that many contemporary students are not much engaged with the aesthetic concerns of that work. It's not clear whether Sasha's pique was directed at Wavelength specifically or 'mid-century High modernism' in general -- i.e. maybe all 'structural film' and/or Brakhage abstractions etc.?? Regardless, intentionally or not, her language was destined to stir the pot, make some folks feel poked with a stick, and fire off testy replies. No film is beyond criticism, including observations that whatever it's merits for other situations, it's a poor choice for a given programmer or teacher's goals in addressing the specific audiences they have at hand. Sasha's snark was phrased as too universal: seeming to suggest Wavelength is no longer any good to ANY group of curious, excited young artists. But, indeed, I'm sure there ARE groups of curious, excited young artists without a background in cinema who would find Wavelength alienating, at least initially, and it's perfectly valid to pass on that film for an introduction to experimental film in favor of something more immediately engaging to the group at hand. As Gene so pungently observed, the problem starts with the absurdity of Donal's original query. First, the 3 films concept makes no sense, since experimental films range in length from a few minutes to several hours. (My gag 3: Star Spangled to Death, Sleep, The Extravagent Shadows... no intermissions or bathroom breaks!) Second, essential is just silly and off-point. Unlike Hollywood films directed at mass audiences and respecting a common set of conventions, experimental works are often very personal, and incredibly varied in form and content. Thus, what works are and aren't essential is not remotely universal, but conditional and contingent on for whom? and for what purpose? Third, this variety and specificity means trying to crowd-source a list of '3 essentials' is utter folly, that can only lead to
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Gene owes no apology. Presuming the need for one is what is rude, as is your inability to edit your comment so it is just his and your remarks. I could care less to seen the history of your digest that you've carelessly (thoughtlessly?) allowed attached. Elizabeth On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Sasha Waters Freyer swfre...@vcu.edu wrote: Mr. Youngblood, Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength offended you. However, turning a critical disagreement over a 48-year-old film is no excuse to attack my ability as a teacher or to dictate my responsibility to my students. I will chalk this exchange up to your passion for Snow's work, and not an inherent rudeness of your character. I accept your apology in advance. Yours, Sasha Waters Freyer On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:02 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote: Send FrameWorks mailing list submissions to frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com You can reach the person managing the list at frameworks-ow...@jonasmekasfilms.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of FrameWorks digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Bernard Roddy) 2. Looking to purchase a JK Optical Printer (Christopher Harris) 3. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Bernard Roddy) 4. 3 sound works (Bernard Roddy) 5. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (direc...@lift.on.ca) 6. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Amanda Christie) 7. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Kelly Gallagher) 8. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Francisco Torres) 9. TONIGHT 3.30 7pm - Jonas Mekas 365 Day Project - Part 3 - March at Microscope, Mekas in person w. pizza and rootbeer (LBurchill) 10. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (George, Sherman) 11. New photo essay posted to flickr (Emile Tobenfeld) 12. ed Reflections of Life: American Indian and Indigenous filmmaker screening series this week at California Institute of the Arts. (Nate Cummings) -- Forwarded message -- From: Bernard Roddy rodd...@yahoo.com To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Cc: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:51:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] VSW - to your attention! Squeaky Wheel in Buffalo. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Amanda Christie ama...@amandadawnchristie.ca wrote: Thanks for sharing Walter! I also have a question on a similar subject for the group. I'm going to be doing a radio-art residency in upstate new york next fall (late October), and I was thinking of driving down with a few 16mm projectors and a bunch of my prints... I thought it might be nice to set up a sort of mini-road-trip-style-film-tour while I'm in the region (either on my way to or from the residency). I can do screenings, performances, and / or teach some workshops. In addition to films, I will also be travelling with theremins, radio gear, and basic electronics, so I could also teach workshops in those fields too if anyone is interested. I'll definitely get in touch with Tara at VSW. Does anyone on the list have other recommendations of places or people to talk to? I've never set anything like this up before, but I figure, that since I'll have a car, and films, and projectors... why not? Any suggestions of places or people to contact in the New York state or surrounding areas would be much appreciated. Thanks so much! Amanda Dawn Christie 506-871-2062 www.amandadawnchristie.ca ama...@amandadawnchristie.ca ___ On 2015-03-29, at 3:56 PM, Walter Ungerer wrote: Dear Frameworkers, I’d like to draw your attention to the Visual Studies Workshop in Rochester, New York. It’s a study facility for film and photography. Last week I had a film showing there of my more recent work. First, I’d like to thank Tara Nelson for offering the venue to me to show my work. Quite wonderful. The facility has excellent projection and sound equipment and a large screen. Tara’s husband Gordon Nelson (audio engineer), and Tara’s assistant Ray Ray Mitrano (public relations) effectively completed the staff . I’ll
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
gene owes no fucking apology in any way you on the other hand need to do some hefty work on yourself - obliviousness to self critique is a frightening place to even witness a hearty fuck off to you sasha On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 4:08 PM, chris bravo iamdir...@gmail.com wrote: Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength your rhetoric wasn't excessive it was offensive. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Sasha Waters Freyer swfre...@vcu.edu wrote: Mr. Youngblood, Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength offended you. However, turning a critical disagreement over a 48-year-old film is no excuse to attack my ability as a teacher or to dictate my responsibility to my students. I will chalk this exchange up to your passion for Snow's work, and not an inherent rudeness of your character. I accept your apology in advance. Yours, Sasha Waters Freyer On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:02 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote: Send FrameWorks mailing list submissions to frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com You can reach the person managing the list at frameworks-ow...@jonasmekasfilms.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of FrameWorks digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Bernard Roddy) 2. Looking to purchase a JK Optical Printer (Christopher Harris) 3. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Bernard Roddy) 4. 3 sound works (Bernard Roddy) 5. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (direc...@lift.on.ca) 6. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Amanda Christie) 7. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Kelly Gallagher) 8. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Francisco Torres) 9. TONIGHT 3.30 7pm - Jonas Mekas 365 Day Project - Part 3 - March at Microscope, Mekas in person w. pizza and rootbeer (LBurchill) 10. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (George, Sherman) 11. New photo essay posted to flickr (Emile Tobenfeld) 12. ed Reflections of Life: American Indian and Indigenous filmmaker screening series this week at California Institute of the Arts. (Nate Cummings) -- Forwarded message -- From: Bernard Roddy rodd...@yahoo.com To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Cc: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:51:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] VSW - to your attention! Squeaky Wheel in Buffalo. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Amanda Christie ama...@amandadawnchristie.ca wrote: Thanks for sharing Walter! I also have a question on a similar subject for the group. I'm going to be doing a radio-art residency in upstate new york next fall (late October), and I was thinking of driving down with a few 16mm projectors and a bunch of my prints... I thought it might be nice to set up a sort of mini-road-trip-style-film-tour while I'm in the region (either on my way to or from the residency). I can do screenings, performances, and / or teach some workshops. In addition to films, I will also be travelling with theremins, radio gear, and basic electronics, so I could also teach workshops in those fields too if anyone is interested. I'll definitely get in touch with Tara at VSW. Does anyone on the list have other recommendations of places or people to talk to? I've never set anything like this up before, but I figure, that since I'll have a car, and films, and projectors... why not? Any suggestions of places or people to contact in the New York state or surrounding areas would be much appreciated. Thanks so much! Amanda Dawn Christie 506-871-2062 www.amandadawnchristie.ca ama...@amandadawnchristie.ca ___ On 2015-03-29, at 3:56 PM, Walter Ungerer wrote: Dear Frameworkers, I’d like to draw your attention to the Visual Studies Workshop in Rochester, New York. It’s a study facility for film and photography. Last week I had a film showing there of my more recent work. First, I’d like to thank Tara Nelson for offering the venue to me to show my work. Quite wonderful. The facility has excellent projection and sound equipment and a large screen. Tara’s husband
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
?This is the kind of vitriol that once made me leave Frameworks. I came back because I missed the otherwise healthy exchanges, the generosity, the sense of community and shared interest. It's disheartening to see it once again descend into hostility and name-calling. People have different opinions - surely there are more productive ways of expressing / negotiating them?? Kim From: FrameWorks frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com on behalf of Cari Machet carimac...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 4:08 PM To: Experimental Film Discussion List Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood gene owes no fucking apology in any way you on the other hand need to do some hefty work on yourself - obliviousness to self critique is a frightening place to even witness a hearty fuck off to you sasha On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 4:08 PM, chris bravo iamdir...@gmail.commailto:iamdir...@gmail.com wrote: Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength your rhetoric wasn't excessive it was offensive. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Sasha Waters Freyer swfre...@vcu.edumailto:swfre...@vcu.edu wrote: Mr. Youngblood, Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength offended you. However, turning a critical disagreement over a 48-year-old film is no excuse to attack my ability as a teacher or to dictate my responsibility to my students. I will chalk this exchange up to your passion for Snow's work, and not an inherent rudeness of your character. I accept your apology in advance. Yours, Sasha Waters Freyer === KEEP IN TOUCH WITH EIFF Become a web member for FREE and receive news and offers: http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk/register Follow EIFF at: https://twitter.com/edfilmfest or http://www.facebook.com/edfilmfest === t. +44(0)131 228 4051 f. +44(0)131 229 5501 w. http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh EH3 9BZ Scotland, United Kingdom The Edinburgh International Film Festival Limited is a subsidiary of the Centre for the Moving Image. Registered in Scotland No: SC132453. VAT No: 502 548861. Registered Office: 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
I just want to unsubscribe from you. Tim Sent from my iPad On Mar 31, 2015, at 9:34 PM, Cari Machet carimac...@gmail.com wrote: you cant unsubscribe this way and why do people do this kind of 'pronouncement' - its like acting out? dont open the emails in a thread if its so horrific - what would you fuckers do in a war zone for fuck sake? i dont care if you leave the list really if you are so whiny -- Cari Machet NYC 646-436-7795 carimac...@gmail.com AIM carismachet Syria +963-099 277 3243 Amman +962 077 636 9407 Berlin +49 152 11779219 Reykjavik +354 894 8650 Twitter: @carimachet https://twitter.com/carimachet 7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187 Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without permission is strictly prohibited. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood-teaching Wavelength
On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Dave Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.commailto:djte...@gmail.com wrote: Chill out, people! Amen! Tell it like it is brother Tetzlaff! I didn’t participate because the initial question seemed very flawed for the reasons David has pointed out, and I was off at a conference (Society for Cinema and Media Studies, with LOTS of presentations on experimental tim and video topics, thank you). But I would say this about teaching Wavelength. For a time back in the 80s I had easy access to a very inexpensive rental of the film and I used it as the first film the first ay of class. This was for a Junior/Senior/MFA/PhD student class at Northwestern’s RadioTV/Film department. We also picked up some arty and boho students from humanities departments, and a bunch of self-styled punks and post-punks who worked on the campus radio station and were into the newest anything. I soon discovered that some undergrads would take the class because the time was convenient for their schedules, but really they were mostly industry oriented and would then be unhappy during most of the course (they did like the more humorous films) and turn in negative evaluations of the course and the prof. Therefore, I needed an audience chaser from the get go, and Wavelength was perfect. I showed it after the intro admin detail and a short intro history to avant garde film, but with no time for discussion after. I did say before the film that I was going to show them a film that was like no other film they had ever seen, and that they had to discuss it with whoever they had dinner with that evening, and their friends wouldn’t believe someone had made such a film. I suggested they try to “explain” to them why this could be the first film in a class on artist films, what it “meant” etc. This worked perfectly. The students who aspired to go to Hollywood and had no other imagination dropped the class. Those who stayed had the opportunity to show just how arty and smarty-pants they really were to their peers. The campus radio kids loved the soundtrack (industrial was big at that time) and immediately got the pun in the title. The tech oriented production oriented students were fascinated with how did he make it?” Above all, those who came to the second class (and sometimes brought a transfer in friend) loved the feeling of insider-elite knowledge, and saw the rest of the course as opening a new door, a Wonderland like rabbit hole for exploring new ideas and experiences. BTW, I would try to show Joyce Weiland’s Water Sark later in the class and use it as a chance to talk about 8mm vs. 16mm, the difference between a prestige male artist having a studio and “his wife” having only a kitchen table top. Sometimes I’d add in Snow’s Breakfast table top dolly film and read it as a misogynist’s attack on the women’s world of Water Sark. Chuck Kleinhans ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Saying that a film makes students want to commit suicide isn't a critique, its an offensive derogatory statement, which is directed not just towards the filmmaker, but towards her students especially. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 1:27 PM Dave Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com wrote: Chill out, people! This is a Listserv. People write short posts quickly, and hit 'Send'. Rhetorical excess comes with the territory as we dash off our thoughts w/o reflecting deeply about whether our wording will read to others with the meanings they had for us when they popped into our heads. I took Sasha's OP as meant to advocate for films that have a sort of perspective not-yet presented in the thread -- works one perhaps could call more 'post-modern' engagements with culture and identity. I took the crack about Wavelength as essentially tangential and polemic -- an observation that many contemporary students are not much engaged with the aesthetic concerns of that work. It's not clear whether Sasha's pique was directed at Wavelength specifically or 'mid-century High modernism' in general -- i.e. maybe all 'structural film' and/or Brakhage abstractions etc.?? Regardless, intentionally or not, her language was destined to stir the pot, make some folks feel poked with a stick, and fire off testy replies. No film is beyond criticism, including observations that whatever it's merits for other situations, it's a poor choice for a given programmer or teacher's goals in addressing the specific audiences they have at hand. Sasha's snark was phrased as too universal: seeming to suggest Wavelength is no longer any good to ANY group of curious, excited young artists. But, indeed, I'm sure there ARE groups of curious, excited young artists without a background in cinema who would find Wavelength alienating, at least initially, and it's perfectly valid to pass on that film for an introduction to experimental film in favor of something more immediately engaging to the group at hand. As Gene so pungently observed, the problem starts with the absurdity of Donal's original query. First, the 3 films concept makes no sense, since experimental films range in length from a few minutes to several hours. (My gag 3: Star Spangled to Death, Sleep, The Extravagent Shadows... no intermissions or bathroom breaks!) Second, essential is just silly and off-point. Unlike Hollywood films directed at mass audiences and respecting a common set of conventions, experimental works are often very personal, and incredibly varied in form and content. Thus, what works are and aren't essential is not remotely universal, but conditional and contingent on for whom? and for what purpose? Third, this variety and specificity means trying to crowd-source a list of '3 essentials' is utter folly, that can only lead to unproductive arguments if people play along. In the thread OP, Donal didn't tell us anything about his own approach to the realm of the moving image or what kinds of art practices and aesthetics the folks attending the workshops will be coming from. For all we know, the attendees could all be middle-aged ceramicists or landscape painters. Ultimately, he needs to pick works that speak to him in some way he thinks will enable him to use them to engage 'noobs'. So it is with any instance of programming films. The work must 'fit' the programmer, the audience, and the purpose. Given the lack of info in the query, responses have (as one would expect) presumed teaching or exhibition situations with which the posters are familiar: Andy and Gene spoke of their students; Sasha referred to YOUNG ARTISTS. But I read the OP as posing an audience of experienced working artists who presumably already have some sort of aesthetic perspective, rather than the sort of student population that would sign up for a studies course in experimental film. Just as there is no universal 3 essential films, there is more than one valid pedagogical approach to introducing noobs to experimental cinema. Sometimes you want to ease folks in, showing work that has some familiar elements. Meshes is probably the most widely used introduction to experimental work, and over the decades so many of its elements have been incorporated into pop culture (advertising, music video, etc.), and it's subject matter (angst at gender roles and domesticity) is so enduring, that it offers a variety of access points. That works. But for some groups being introduced to experimental work, what I call 'deep end of the pool pedagogy' can work as well or better — tossing the initiates into the strangest water possible w/o a life-jacket, then tossing a safety line into the trashing if it's not getting anywhere... Andy and Gene speak of student appreciation of Wavelength, but under what conditions? What courses have they taken before? Is Wavelength the FIRST screening on the syllabus? Sasha's put-down seemed to me to posit Wavelength as a poor choice for
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Chill out, people! This is a Listserv. People write short posts quickly, and hit 'Send'. Rhetorical excess comes with the territory as we dash off our thoughts w/o reflecting deeply about whether our wording will read to others with the meanings they had for us when they popped into our heads. I took Sasha's OP as meant to advocate for films that have a sort of perspective not-yet presented in the thread -- works one perhaps could call more 'post-modern' engagements with culture and identity. I took the crack about Wavelength as essentially tangential and polemic -- an observation that many contemporary students are not much engaged with the aesthetic concerns of that work. It's not clear whether Sasha's pique was directed at Wavelength specifically or 'mid-century High modernism' in general -- i.e. maybe all 'structural film' and/or Brakhage abstractions etc.?? Regardless, intentionally or not, her language was destined to stir the pot, make some folks feel poked with a stick, and fire off testy replies. No film is beyond criticism, including observations that whatever it's merits for other situations, it's a poor choice for a given programmer or teacher's goals in addressing the specific audiences they have at hand. Sasha's snark was phrased as too universal: seeming to suggest Wavelength is no longer any good to ANY group of curious, excited young artists. But, indeed, I'm sure there ARE groups of curious, excited young artists without a background in cinema who would find Wavelength alienating, at least initially, and it's perfectly valid to pass on that film for an introduction to experimental film in favor of something more immediately engaging to the group at hand. As Gene so pungently observed, the problem starts with the absurdity of Donal's original query. First, the 3 films concept makes no sense, since experimental films range in length from a few minutes to several hours. (My gag 3: Star Spangled to Death, Sleep, The Extravagent Shadows... no intermissions or bathroom breaks!) Second, essential is just silly and off-point. Unlike Hollywood films directed at mass audiences and respecting a common set of conventions, experimental works are often very personal, and incredibly varied in form and content. Thus, what works are and aren't essential is not remotely universal, but conditional and contingent on for whom? and for what purpose? Third, this variety and specificity means trying to crowd-source a list of '3 essentials' is utter folly, that can only lead to unproductive arguments if people play along. In the thread OP, Donal didn't tell us anything about his own approach to the realm of the moving image or what kinds of art practices and aesthetics the folks attending the workshops will be coming from. For all we know, the attendees could all be middle-aged ceramicists or landscape painters. Ultimately, he needs to pick works that speak to him in some way he thinks will enable him to use them to engage 'noobs'. So it is with any instance of programming films. The work must 'fit' the programmer, the audience, and the purpose. Given the lack of info in the query, responses have (as one would expect) presumed teaching or exhibition situations with which the posters are familiar: Andy and Gene spoke of their students; Sasha referred to YOUNG ARTISTS. But I read the OP as posing an audience of experienced working artists who presumably already have some sort of aesthetic perspective, rather than the sort of student population that would sign up for a studies course in experimental film. Just as there is no universal 3 essential films, there is more than one valid pedagogical approach to introducing noobs to experimental cinema. Sometimes you want to ease folks in, showing work that has some familiar elements. Meshes is probably the most widely used introduction to experimental work, and over the decades so many of its elements have been incorporated into pop culture (advertising, music video, etc.), and it's subject matter (angst at gender roles and domesticity) is so enduring, that it offers a variety of access points. That works. But for some groups being introduced to experimental work, what I call 'deep end of the pool pedagogy' can work as well or better — tossing the initiates into the strangest water possible w/o a life-jacket, then tossing a safety line into the trashing if it's not getting anywhere... Andy and Gene speak of student appreciation of Wavelength, but under what conditions? What courses have they taken before? Is Wavelength the FIRST screening on the syllabus? Sasha's put-down seemed to me to posit Wavelength as a poor choice for point-of-entry, not something not worth screening at all, and I totally understand that. When I first taught 'experimental' I screened it about half-way through the term, but found the 'bang' too minimal for the screening time, and concluded any pedagogical purpose I had for showing
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Sasha, I appreciate your intelligent and helpful response bringing some radical women filmmakers into the original post. Sometimes many people in this space seem to get very stuck on notions of the canon which means that important work like that of Sadie Benning and Hito Steyerl gets swiped aside. As a young woman experimental filmmaker I appreciate your challenging and provoking comments in your original post. As a young woman experimental filmmaker I also stand fervently and explicitly against sexist and patronizing comments, tone, and antagonizing. I'm a little taken aback that more people haven't loudly and explicitly critiqued the sexism and sexist patronizing/condescension that was thrown at Sasha and I'm kind of surprised and disappointed. Frameworks will continue to lose many radical and important filmmakers, thinkers, and feminists, especially many young filmmakers, over deplorable vitriol such as what's played out here in this incident. In solidarity with Sasha, Kim, and all women filmmakers in experimental spaces who demand to stop being condescended to. -Kelly On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Tim Halloran televis...@hotmail.com wrote: Calm down. Thanks for adding nothing to the conversation. Tim Sent from my iPad On Mar 31, 2015, at 8:09 AM, Cari Machet carimac...@gmail.com wrote: gene owes no fucking apology in any way you on the other hand need to do some hefty work on yourself - obliviousness to self critique is a frightening place to even witness a hearty fuck off to you sasha On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 4:08 PM, chris bravo iamdir...@gmail.com wrote: Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength your rhetoric wasn't excessive it was offensive. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Sasha Waters Freyer swfre...@vcu.edu wrote: Mr. Youngblood, Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength offended you. However, turning a critical disagreement over a 48-year-old film is no excuse to attack my ability as a teacher or to dictate my responsibility to my students. I will chalk this exchange up to your passion for Snow's work, and not an inherent rudeness of your character. I accept your apology in advance. Yours, Sasha Waters Freyer On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:02 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote: Send FrameWorks mailing list submissions to frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com You can reach the person managing the list at frameworks-ow...@jonasmekasfilms.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of FrameWorks digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Bernard Roddy) 2. Looking to purchase a JK Optical Printer (Christopher Harris) 3. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Bernard Roddy) 4. 3 sound works (Bernard Roddy) 5. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (direc...@lift.on.ca) 6. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Amanda Christie) 7. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Kelly Gallagher) 8. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Francisco Torres) 9. TONIGHT 3.30 7pm - Jonas Mekas 365 Day Project - Part 3 - March at Microscope, Mekas in person w. pizza and rootbeer (LBurchill) 10. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (George, Sherman) 11. New photo essay posted to flickr (Emile Tobenfeld) 12. ed Reflections of Life: American Indian and Indigenous filmmaker screening series this week at California Institute of the Arts. (Nate Cummings) -- Forwarded message -- From: Bernard Roddy rodd...@yahoo.com To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Cc: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:51:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] VSW - to your attention! Squeaky Wheel in Buffalo. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Amanda Christie ama...@amandadawnchristie.ca wrote: Thanks for sharing Walter! I also have a question on a similar subject for the group. I'm going to be doing a radio-art residency in upstate new york next fall (late October), and I was thinking of driving down with a few 16mm projectors and a bunch of my prints... I thought it might be nice to set up a sort of mini-road-trip-style-film-tour
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
I apologize, in general, for whatever. I don't want to add to polemics that disdain and dissuade an inclusive environment. Like Sasha, I barely contribute, to most listservs, for fear of attack and ridicule, and yet I did apparently myself, however, depending on your POV, regarding her remarks directed at Gene Youngblood, which really irked me, and I do not apologize for them. I hope their tone was professional, but if not, then I was wrong. I know I can be a smart ass, but I did have fundamental problems with Sasha's public comments of Gene's remarks, and I make no apology for them. Elizabeth McMahon On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 2:41 PM, chris bravo iamdir...@gmail.com wrote: Saying that a film makes students want to commit suicide isn't a critique, its an offensive derogatory statement, which is directed not just towards the filmmaker, but towards her students especially. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 1:27 PM Dave Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com wrote: Chill out, people! This is a Listserv. People write short posts quickly, and hit 'Send'. Rhetorical excess comes with the territory as we dash off our thoughts w/o reflecting deeply about whether our wording will read to others with the meanings they had for us when they popped into our heads. I took Sasha's OP as meant to advocate for films that have a sort of perspective not-yet presented in the thread -- works one perhaps could call more 'post-modern' engagements with culture and identity. I took the crack about Wavelength as essentially tangential and polemic -- an observation that many contemporary students are not much engaged with the aesthetic concerns of that work. It's not clear whether Sasha's pique was directed at Wavelength specifically or 'mid-century High modernism' in general -- i.e. maybe all 'structural film' and/or Brakhage abstractions etc.?? Regardless, intentionally or not, her language was destined to stir the pot, make some folks feel poked with a stick, and fire off testy replies. No film is beyond criticism, including observations that whatever it's merits for other situations, it's a poor choice for a given programmer or teacher's goals in addressing the specific audiences they have at hand. Sasha's snark was phrased as too universal: seeming to suggest Wavelength is no longer any good to ANY group of curious, excited young artists. But, indeed, I'm sure there ARE groups of curious, excited young artists without a background in cinema who would find Wavelength alienating, at least initially, and it's perfectly valid to pass on that film for an introduction to experimental film in favor of something more immediately engaging to the group at hand. As Gene so pungently observed, the problem starts with the absurdity of Donal's original query. First, the 3 films concept makes no sense, since experimental films range in length from a few minutes to several hours. (My gag 3: Star Spangled to Death, Sleep, The Extravagent Shadows... no intermissions or bathroom breaks!) Second, essential is just silly and off-point. Unlike Hollywood films directed at mass audiences and respecting a common set of conventions, experimental works are often very personal, and incredibly varied in form and content. Thus, what works are and aren't essential is not remotely universal, but conditional and contingent on for whom? and for what purpose? Third, this variety and specificity means trying to crowd-source a list of '3 essentials' is utter folly, that can only lead to unproductive arguments if people play along. In the thread OP, Donal didn't tell us anything about his own approach to the realm of the moving image or what kinds of art practices and aesthetics the folks attending the workshops will be coming from. For all we know, the attendees could all be middle-aged ceramicists or landscape painters. Ultimately, he needs to pick works that speak to him in some way he thinks will enable him to use them to engage 'noobs'. So it is with any instance of programming films. The work must 'fit' the programmer, the audience, and the purpose. Given the lack of info in the query, responses have (as one would expect) presumed teaching or exhibition situations with which the posters are familiar: Andy and Gene spoke of their students; Sasha referred to YOUNG ARTISTS. But I read the OP as posing an audience of experienced working artists who presumably already have some sort of aesthetic perspective, rather than the sort of student population that would sign up for a studies course in experimental film. Just as there is no universal 3 essential films, there is more than one valid pedagogical approach to introducing noobs to experimental cinema. Sometimes you want to ease folks in, showing work that has some familiar elements. Meshes is probably the most widely used introduction to experimental work, and over the decades so many of its elements have been incorporated into pop culture (advertising, music
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength your rhetoric wasn't excessive it was offensive. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Sasha Waters Freyer swfre...@vcu.edu wrote: Mr. Youngblood, Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength offended you. However, turning a critical disagreement over a 48-year-old film is no excuse to attack my ability as a teacher or to dictate my responsibility to my students. I will chalk this exchange up to your passion for Snow's work, and not an inherent rudeness of your character. I accept your apology in advance. Yours, Sasha Waters Freyer On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:02 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote: Send FrameWorks mailing list submissions to frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com You can reach the person managing the list at frameworks-ow...@jonasmekasfilms.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of FrameWorks digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Bernard Roddy) 2. Looking to purchase a JK Optical Printer (Christopher Harris) 3. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Bernard Roddy) 4. 3 sound works (Bernard Roddy) 5. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (direc...@lift.on.ca) 6. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Amanda Christie) 7. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Kelly Gallagher) 8. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Francisco Torres) 9. TONIGHT 3.30 7pm - Jonas Mekas 365 Day Project - Part 3 - March at Microscope, Mekas in person w. pizza and rootbeer (LBurchill) 10. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (George, Sherman) 11. New photo essay posted to flickr (Emile Tobenfeld) 12. ed Reflections of Life: American Indian and Indigenous filmmaker screening series this week at California Institute of the Arts. (Nate Cummings) -- Forwarded message -- From: Bernard Roddy rodd...@yahoo.com To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Cc: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:51:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] VSW - to your attention! Squeaky Wheel in Buffalo. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Amanda Christie ama...@amandadawnchristie.ca wrote: Thanks for sharing Walter! I also have a question on a similar subject for the group. I'm going to be doing a radio-art residency in upstate new york next fall (late October), and I was thinking of driving down with a few 16mm projectors and a bunch of my prints... I thought it might be nice to set up a sort of mini-road-trip-style-film-tour while I'm in the region (either on my way to or from the residency). I can do screenings, performances, and / or teach some workshops. In addition to films, I will also be travelling with theremins, radio gear, and basic electronics, so I could also teach workshops in those fields too if anyone is interested. I'll definitely get in touch with Tara at VSW. Does anyone on the list have other recommendations of places or people to talk to? I've never set anything like this up before, but I figure, that since I'll have a car, and films, and projectors... why not? Any suggestions of places or people to contact in the New York state or surrounding areas would be much appreciated. Thanks so much! Amanda Dawn Christie 506-871-2062 www.amandadawnchristie.ca ama...@amandadawnchristie.ca ___ On 2015-03-29, at 3:56 PM, Walter Ungerer wrote: Dear Frameworkers, I’d like to draw your attention to the Visual Studies Workshop in Rochester, New York. It’s a study facility for film and photography. Last week I had a film showing there of my more recent work. First, I’d like to thank Tara Nelson for offering the venue to me to show my work. Quite wonderful. The facility has excellent projection and sound equipment and a large screen. Tara’s husband Gordon Nelson (audio engineer), and Tara’s assistant Ray Ray Mitrano (public relations) effectively completed the staff . I’ll add a probing and very appreciative audience to my description, as a culmination of my presentation. I would send this message of appreciation privately to
Re: [Frameworks] Response to Gene Youngblood
Mr. Youngblood, Clearly my rhetorical excesses with regards to Wavelength offended you. However, turning a critical disagreement over a 48-year-old film is no excuse to attack my ability as a teacher or to dictate my responsibility to my students. I will chalk this exchange up to your passion for Snow's work, and not an inherent rudeness of your character. I accept your apology in advance. Yours, Sasha Waters Freyer On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:02 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote: Send FrameWorks mailing list submissions to frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com You can reach the person managing the list at frameworks-ow...@jonasmekasfilms.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of FrameWorks digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Bernard Roddy) 2. Looking to purchase a JK Optical Printer (Christopher Harris) 3. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Bernard Roddy) 4. 3 sound works (Bernard Roddy) 5. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (direc...@lift.on.ca) 6. Re: VSW - to your attention! (Amanda Christie) 7. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Kelly Gallagher) 8. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (Francisco Torres) 9. TONIGHT 3.30 7pm - Jonas Mekas 365 Day Project - Part 3 - March at Microscope, Mekas in person w. pizza and rootbeer (LBurchill) 10. Re: 2. Re: What are the 3 Essential Films that you would show Artists on their first foray into the Moving Image Realm ? (George, Sherman) 11. New photo essay posted to flickr (Emile Tobenfeld) 12. ed Reflections of Life: American Indian and Indigenous filmmaker screening series this week at California Institute of the Arts. (Nate Cummings) -- Forwarded message -- From: Bernard Roddy rodd...@yahoo.com To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Cc: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:51:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] VSW - to your attention! Squeaky Wheel in Buffalo. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Amanda Christie ama...@amandadawnchristie.ca wrote: Thanks for sharing Walter! I also have a question on a similar subject for the group. I'm going to be doing a radio-art residency in upstate new york next fall (late October), and I was thinking of driving down with a few 16mm projectors and a bunch of my prints... I thought it might be nice to set up a sort of mini-road-trip-style-film-tour while I'm in the region (either on my way to or from the residency). I can do screenings, performances, and / or teach some workshops. In addition to films, I will also be travelling with theremins, radio gear, and basic electronics, so I could also teach workshops in those fields too if anyone is interested. I'll definitely get in touch with Tara at VSW. Does anyone on the list have other recommendations of places or people to talk to? I've never set anything like this up before, but I figure, that since I'll have a car, and films, and projectors... why not? Any suggestions of places or people to contact in the New York state or surrounding areas would be much appreciated. Thanks so much! Amanda Dawn Christie 506-871-2062 www.amandadawnchristie.ca ama...@amandadawnchristie.ca ___ On 2015-03-29, at 3:56 PM, Walter Ungerer wrote: Dear Frameworkers, I’d like to draw your attention to the Visual Studies Workshop in Rochester, New York. It’s a study facility for film and photography. Last week I had a film showing there of my more recent work. First, I’d like to thank Tara Nelson for offering the venue to me to show my work. Quite wonderful. The facility has excellent projection and sound equipment and a large screen. Tara’s husband Gordon Nelson (audio engineer), and Tara’s assistant Ray Ray Mitrano (public relations) effectively completed the staff . I’ll add a probing and very appreciative audience to my description, as a culmination of my presentation. I would send this message of appreciation privately to Tara, but it would not draw attention to the Visual Studies Workshop facility for the listserv. As an artist I am always looking for opportunities to exhibit my work, and I imagine many of you on
