Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
In a message dated 06/28/2001 12:23:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally I don't care much about BSD vs. GPL and am annoyed by Microsoft's hypocricy (sp?). The fact that they're using open source software is great. That was the point I was trying to make. Rather than be annoyed by this, it should be splashed across /., lwn, etc. But I'm not gonna do it. Maybe ESR will if you tell him. I dont think that microsoft is being hypocritical. They dont generally say that open source has no value, only that they dont agree that its a viable strategy for marketing commercial products. I dont think that the fact that they use some code as a base for their products contradicts that position at all. Bryan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
anyone seen this yet or am I slow as usual? http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html Ak To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Rik van Riel wrote: On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Wes Peters wrote: Rik van Riel wrote: On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: Wes Peters said on Jun 23, 2001 at 23:28:42: Plenty of GNU stuff there, though it doesn't say so explicitly. Of course, they say it's all meant only for legacy Unix stuff. Can you substantiate your claim there is plenty of GNU stuff in Interix, or are you just talking out your ass as usual? gcc, gdb, bash, gnu emacs and a bunch more. Out of several hundred utilities? [snip troll] /taunt weenies=Linux I hope you're having fun receiving flames from more impressionable people ;) Personally I don't care much about BSD vs. GPL and am annoyed by Microsoft's hypocricy (sp?). The fact that they're using open source software is great. That was the point I was trying to make. Rather than be annoyed by this, it should be splashed across /., lwn, etc. But I'm not gonna do it. Maybe ESR will if you tell him. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters Softweyr LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Rik van Riel wrote: On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: Wes Peters said on Jun 23, 2001 at 23:28:42: Plenty of GNU stuff there, though it doesn't say so explicitly. Of course, they say it's all meant only for legacy Unix stuff. Can you substantiate your claim there is plenty of GNU stuff in Interix, or are you just talking out your ass as usual? gcc, gdb, bash, gnu emacs and a bunch more. Out of several hundred utilities? Gimme a break. Yeah, it's probably half the binary distribution, but that just goes to show the difference in bloat between the GPL and BSD derived bits. They even have a download the source page right on the Interix product page. You Linux weenies would cry over being hung with a brand new, GPL'd rope. /taunt weenies=Linux -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters Softweyr LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Wes Peters wrote: Rik van Riel wrote: On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: Wes Peters said on Jun 23, 2001 at 23:28:42: Plenty of GNU stuff there, though it doesn't say so explicitly. Of course, they say it's all meant only for legacy Unix stuff. Can you substantiate your claim there is plenty of GNU stuff in Interix, or are you just talking out your ass as usual? gcc, gdb, bash, gnu emacs and a bunch more. Out of several hundred utilities? [snip troll] /taunt weenies=Linux I hope you're having fun receiving flames from more impressionable people ;) Personally I don't care much about BSD vs. GPL and am annoyed by Microsoft's hypocricy (sp?). The fact that they're using open source software is great. cheers, Rik -- Virtual memory is like a game you can't win; However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose... http://www.surriel.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ Send all your spam to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (spam digging piggy) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Can you substantiate your claim there is plenty of GNU stuff in Interix, or are you just talking out your ass as usual? Substantiate? Look at the component list: http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/interix/features.asp Why should I substantiate it? Do it yourself if it bothers you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Rahul Siddharthan wrote: http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/interix/interixinc.asp Plenty of GNU stuff there, though it doesn't say so explicitly. Of course, they say it's all meant only for legacy Unix stuff. Can you substantiate your claim there is plenty of GNU stuff in Interix, or are you just talking out your ass as usual? -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters Softweyr LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Mark Valentine wrote: No. The core SpiderTCP protocol implementation is _not_ derived from BSD. Some of the utilities which were added as the product was developed came from Net/1 or Net/2 (hence the FTP.EXE copyright string), but others such as route and netstat were written from scratch, and the BSD utilities were modified to work over TLI and STREAMS (SpiderTCP is a STREAMS implementation, which is why NT had STREAMS at least until 4.0; they also used it for their OSI and X.500 implementation, even though that was not Spider's). The STREAMS TCP/IP implementation was later replaced (the way Microsoft wedged SpiderSTREAMS into NT was not pretty), but large chunks of the utilities remain. THAT was the stack that was reportedly based on NetBSD 1.3.3. The NT 5.0 (nee Windows 2000) Beta5 TCP/IP stack would be reported by various network scanners as the NetBSD 1.3.3 stack, which led to widespread rumors that the code was a port from NetBSD. I suspect you would need to look at the code itself to determine that is true, or get someone at Microsoft to tell the truth. Yeah, like that's gonna happen. (NOTE: this was never sockets over TLI like the stuff some UNIX vendors bought from a Spider competitor!) *Cough*Lachman*cough*. SpiderTCP sockets used an old BSD API, but was a rewrite to work over a kernel STREAMS socket interface to the kernel TCP/IP drivers. Neat hack. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters Softweyr LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Wes Peters writes: Mark Valentine wrote: No. The core SpiderTCP protocol implementation is _not_ derived from BSD. [...] (NOTE: this was never sockets over TLI like the stuff some UNIX vendors bought from a Spider competitor!) *Cough*Lachman*cough*. *Cough*Wollongong*cough*hack*wheeze* (THUD!) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/interix/interixinc.asp Plenty of GNU stuff there, though it doesn't say so explicitly. Of course, they say it's all meant only for legacy Unix stuff. Can you substantiate your claim there is plenty of GNU stuff in Interix, or are you just talking out your ass as usual? That's uncalled for Wes. Interix contains *lots* of GNU code, but to be fair to M$, the company that developed Interix was acquired by M$ long before Linux was as big of a threat to it's business as it is now. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
In mailinglist.freebsd.hackers, you wrote: This is a good reference, but sadly it only really refers to the sockets paradigm as first popularized by BSD, which means they could have followed the API without touching a single line of BSD code. To reiterate: What I'm looking for is some true, hard evidence that Microsoft has used BSD code in any of their operating systems. A I assume you've carefully examined the NT 3.51 (and 4.0) license agreement? If they did use anything that's from a BSD socket layer there should be a clause 3 statement there[1][2]. I think I've got a NT 3.5 server kit at the office somewhere... [1] I mention this because I sware I've seen an actual NT 3.51 manual, the front cover if which DID contain the Bezerkly license agreement. Unfortunatly I've lost it. [2] And knowing Microsoft's lawyers, it really is there even if they were trying to cover the fact up. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Wes Peters said on Jun 23, 2001 at 23:28:42: Plenty of GNU stuff there, though it doesn't say so explicitly. Of course, they say it's all meant only for legacy Unix stuff. Can you substantiate your claim there is plenty of GNU stuff in Interix, or are you just talking out your ass as usual? Why should I substantiate it? Do it yourself if it bothers you. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: Wes Peters said on Jun 23, 2001 at 23:28:42: Plenty of GNU stuff there, though it doesn't say so explicitly. Of course, they say it's all meant only for legacy Unix stuff. Can you substantiate your claim there is plenty of GNU stuff in Interix, or are you just talking out your ass as usual? gcc, gdb, bash, gnu emacs and a bunch more. Rik -- Virtual memory is like a game you can't win; However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose... http://www.surriel.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ Send all your spam to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (spam digging piggy) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Dear Jordan, Bill Gates has jumped in to clarify OS vs. GPL surprisingly quickly after the publication in WSJ. Lee is my hero. Sort of the other way around. We were the several FreeBSD volunteers referenced in the article. Lee's my press contact at the WSJ and he's done a number of pieces favorable to us in the past. Perhaps Lee can consider tracking down how much GLP lisenced software is used in companies in close proximity to Microsoft. While Microsoft is not going to be caught dead using it, there must be companies that are married to Microsoft on one end, but happily use Linux on the other. Kees Jan You are only young once, but you can stay immature all your life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Koster, K.J. said on Jun 21, 2001 at 10:24:24: Perhaps Lee can consider tracking down how much GLP lisenced software is used in companies in close proximity to Microsoft. While Microsoft is not going to be caught dead using it, http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/interix/interixinc.asp Plenty of GNU stuff there, though it doesn't say so explicitly. Of course, they say it's all meant only for legacy Unix stuff. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
OOPs ;) check http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-06-20-018-20-NW-MS-SW Ak Koster, K.J. said on Jun 21, 2001 at 10:24:24: Perhaps Lee can consider tracking down how much GLP lisenced software is used in companies in close proximity to Microsoft. While Microsoft is not going to be caught dead using it, http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/interix/interixinc.asp Plenty of GNU stuff there, though it doesn't say so explicitly. Of course, they say it's all meant only for legacy Unix stuff. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-06-20-018-20-NW-MS-SW Doesn't this mean software developed with Microsoft's SDK is viral? And doesn't *that* mean you're not allowed to develop it with Microsoft's SDK? And doesn't this sound a bit circular? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
On 21 Jun 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-06-20-018-20-NW-MS-SW Doesn't this mean software developed with Microsoft's SDK is viral? And doesn't *that* mean you're not allowed to develop it with Microsoft's SDK? And doesn't this sound a bit circular? http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdn-files/027/001/516/eula_mit.htm Particularly clause 1 (c). What was it again about a cat in a corner making weird jumps? ;) Rik -- Executive summary of a recent Microsoft press release: we are concerned about the GNU General Public License (GPL) http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Rahul Siddharthan [EMAIL PROTECTED] types: http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/interix/interixinc.asp Plenty of GNU stuff there, though it doesn't say so explicitly. Of course, they say it's all meant only for legacy Unix stuff. Legacy being industry jargon for working. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Jordan Hubbard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: From: Jeroen Massar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:16:20 +0200 It all sounds really odd to me but alas a cat does stupid things when it gets cornered... I sincerely hope that you BSD guysgals stay far far away from the microsoft is evil, we can't win it easily so let's bash it to hell-attitude. 1. We're not cornered. 2. We're not bashing Microsoft here. We're just trying to figure out if their recently published comments that Open Source is bad and inimical to our interests is really just marketspeak which contradicts their own engineering position. I believe that Microsoft is against the GPL. Prolly won't find too much Linux code in Windows. The TCP/IP stacks (i've heard) are pretty close. Windows has added a few things, but essentially they are the same. The BSD licence and the GPL, as we all know, are very different. BSD good GPL bad. -- Dave McKay (i work for no one) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
* Dave McKay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [010620 15:26] wrote: Jordan Hubbard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: From: Jeroen Massar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:16:20 +0200 It all sounds really odd to me but alas a cat does stupid things when it gets cornered... I sincerely hope that you BSD guysgals stay far far away from the microsoft is evil, we can't win it easily so let's bash it to hell-attitude. 1. We're not cornered. 2. We're not bashing Microsoft here. We're just trying to figure out if their recently published comments that Open Source is bad and inimical to our interests is really just marketspeak which contradicts their own engineering position. I believe that Microsoft is against the GPL. Prolly won't find too much Linux code in Windows. The TCP/IP stacks (i've heard) are pretty close. Windows has added a few things, but essentially they are the same. The BSD licence and the GPL, as we all know, are very different. BSD good GPL bad. Microsoft can't include any GPL code in thier OS, as it would force them to open source it. I think when Microsoft says: We don't use open source because it's dangerous they mean GPL'd open source, because all _true_ open source is contaminated by the GPL (*) making it useless for engaging in any sort of competition. This is because the minute you make your first sale you have to give up the code. Wouldn't it be somewhat eerie to have all your competitors signed up as your first customers? Espcially if they knew they were going to get a source CDrom with thier purchase? :) Of course we (BSD) get lumped in with open source, well because we are open source. And it's always fun to poke MS people with a pointy stick and taunt them about thier utilization of BSD code. Of course using BSD code doesn't force you to do anything except be honest about using it, something that MS's press dude seems to have missed. (*) yes, i'm entitiled to be sarcastic. :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6322264.html?tag=tp_pr Gates talks about GPL and being against it. ---Quote: In an interview Tuesday with CNET News.com at the TechEd 2001 conference, Gates observed that Microsoft routinely shares the source code for its Windows operating system with its partners. In addition, the company uses some open-source software in its Hotmail e-mail service. However, Gates said, there are problems for commercial users relative to the (GNU General Public License), and we are just making sure people understand the GPL. end Quote. Miscrosoft isn't anti open-source, it's anti GPL. GPL is great for simple things, that don't create any standard, but work upon one. But as even RMS [I think it was RMS] agreed, BSD license is much better for 'standards'. -- ie the oog format was BSD licensed and the GPL people endorsed it because this would allow oog to grow, as now corps can [try to] make money off a format in their proprietary devices, unlike if oog was GPLed, it would die as no one would support it except for the linux folks. On 06/20/2001 3:16:23 PM, Alfred Perlstein is quoted as saying: [snip] . . . .| I believe that Microsoft is against the GPL. Prolly won't find . . . .| too much Linux code in Windows. The TCP/IP stacks (i've heard) . . . .| are pretty close. Windows has added a few things, but essentially . . . .| they are the same. The BSD licence and the GPL, as we all know, . . . .| are very different. BSD good GPL bad. . . . .| . . . .|Microsoft can't include any GPL code in thier OS, as it would force . . . .|them to open source it. . . . .| . . . .|I think when Microsoft says: We don't use open source because it's . . . .|dangerous they mean GPL'd open source, because all _true_ open . . . .|source is contaminated by the GPL (*) making it useless for engaging . . . .|in any sort of competition. This is because the minute you make . . . .|your first sale you have to give up the code. . . . .| . . . .|Wouldn't it be somewhat eerie to have all your competitors signed . . . .|up as your first customers? Espcially if they knew they were going . . . .|to get a source CDrom with thier purchase? :) . . . .| . . . .|Of course we (BSD) get lumped in with open source, well because we . . . .|are open source. And it's always fun to poke MS people with a pointy . . . .|stick and taunt them about thier utilization of BSD code. . . . .| . . . .|Of course using BSD code doesn't force you to do anything except be . . . .|honest about using it, something that MS's press dude seems to have . . . .|missed. . . . .| . . . .|(*) yes, i'm entitiled to be sarcastic. :) . . . .| . . . .|-Alfred . . . .| . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . . . .|with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Peter wrote: However, Gates said, there are problems for commercial users relative to the (GNU General Public License), and we are just making sure people understand the GPL. end Quote. But the issue is that wasn't the end of the quotation. Later on, Bubba says, And so people should understand the GPL. When people say open source, they often mean the GPL. In the past, the line from Microsoft has been reduced publicly to Open source is bad because the GPL is viral. They are trying to tar non-GPLed open source projects with the same FUDdy brush. So I think pointing out areas where they don't live by their own FUD is a very important thing to do. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: GPL is great for simple things, that don't create any standard, but work upon one. But as even RMS [I think it was RMS] agreed, BSD license is much better for 'standards'. -- ie the oog format was BSD licensed and the GPL people endorsed it because this would allow oog to grow, as now corps can [try to] make money off a format in their proprietary devices, unlike if oog was GPLed, it would die as no one would support it except for the linux folks. Beware. Richard Stallman also advocates changing to more restrictive licenses once the software (in general, not ogg in particular) has gather sufficient momentum. He wrote a diatribe a year or two back where he argued that the time had come to switch glibc (IIRC) from LPGL to GPL so that all the commercial software vendors who had become dependent on Linux would be forced to GPL their software or fold. Talk about bait-and-switch! It's for this reason, by the way, that the LGPL has been renamed from Library GPL to Lesser GPL. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:55:06PM -0400, Sergey Babkin wrote: Josef Karthauser wrote: On Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:16:28PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is BSDI's stack so superior to any of the other BSDs that MS would pay BSDI for it, particularly at a time when BSDI was trying to compete with MS in the server market? Seems like something that a bunch of BSD fanatics conjured up after a few beers. Are you sure that this was Microsoft. The press release that I remember from last year was a Compaq one (or was it SCO), but not Microsoft. Definitely not SCO. Though SCO's Great Networking Achievement of year 2000 was an implementation of in-kernel sockets (as opposed to the user-level library over TLI) so there is a chance that you had it confused with this. The one last year was Compaq. I think it was actually Tandem. Followups set to -chat. -- Ben An art scene of delight I created this to be ... -- Sun Ra To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Jordan Hubbard wrote: I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. Thanks! BSDI or CSRG did the contract work, according to my sources; so you might want to ask Kirk or Mike Karels, since you are more connected to them than we are (e.g. same building, etc.). My sources are a former BSDI employee from way back (lawsuit days and before), and another person. The FTP utility contains the copyright string (run strings on it). Several other standard tools have similar copyright strings in them. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Dan Nelson wrote: In the last episode (Jun 15), Jordan Hubbard said: Thanks, that represents the first hard hit I've seen yet: root@winston- strings FTP.EXE |grep University of California @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. But this probably just means that FTP.EXE is based off the BSD ftp source; you're looking for evidence that the kernel itself has BSD stack code in it, right? I doubt it. The stack was in user space until NT/2000; that's why sockets could not be treated as file descriptors. Actually, you can allocate anonymous completion ports, and use aprtment model threading to get the same effect in 95/98, but who's counting? 8-). The file you are looking for is WSOCK32.DLL, the 32 bit WinSock library. Preferrably, you will use the version from the developer CD, since it has debugging information and many more unstripped strings. If you have a copy of Visual InterDev or even just a vanilla Visual C++, it should be an easy find. Also I suggest looking at the Early Availability Technology Preview for their IPv4+IPSEC/IPv6 stack. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
An article over on www.Kuro5hin.org by a someone who claims to be a former MS employee describes the stack used in NT back in the early 90's as code which was liscensed from a company called 'Spider'. In the comp.unix.admin archives I found a post which references Spider QNIX as a *nix variant so I'm pretty sure this is who the article is referencing. Anyway this code in turn was pulled from BSD back in the day... ...Along with Spider's stack came versions of various TCP/IP-related utility programs, such as ftp, rcp and rsh. Those were ported from BSD sockets to winsock (not a huge change) and bundled with NT. I don't know how much faith you can put in it, but its an interesting read. I found the following snippet to be quite curious... And implying that the TCP/IP stack uses BSD code is also false. As I said above there may be small vestiges of it in there, although I doubt it. Anyway the FreeBSD programmers who reported all this to the Wall Street Journal can't see the NT TCP/IP source either, so they can't have been referring to that. Sorry if this belongs in -chat now. Just passing it along. BSDI or CSRG did the contract work, according to my sources; so you might want to ask Kirk or Mike Karels, since you are more connected to them than we are (e.g. same building, etc.). My sources are a former BSDI employee from way back (lawsuit days and before), and another person. The FTP utility contains the copyright string (run strings on it). Several other standard tools have similar copyright strings in them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Adam) Date: Tue 19 Jun, 2001 Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? An article over on www.Kuro5hin.org by a someone who claims to be a former MS employee describes the stack used in NT back in the early 90's as code which was liscensed from a company called 'Spider'. Correct. Spider Systems in those days; that product (SpiderTCP) is still sold by Spider Software http://www.spider.com, primarily targetted at embedded systems. (I was [EMAIL PROTECTED] for quite a while, since the days I was spider!mark...) In the comp.unix.admin archives I found a post which references Spider QNIX as a *nix variant so I'm pretty sure this is who the article is referencing. Hmm, that's a bit muddled. A major Spider customer did use QNX (and still does), but that's not a Spider product (see http://www.qnx.com), just a supported (and neat) platform. Anyway this code in turn was pulled from BSD back in the day... No. The core SpiderTCP protocol implementation is _not_ derived from BSD. Some of the utilities which were added as the product was developed came from Net/1 or Net/2 (hence the FTP.EXE copyright string), but others such as route and netstat were written from scratch, and the BSD utilities were modified to work over TLI and STREAMS (SpiderTCP is a STREAMS implementation, which is why NT had STREAMS at least until 4.0; they also used it for their OSI and X.500 implementation, even though that was not Spider's). The STREAMS TCP/IP implementation was later replaced (the way Microsoft wedged SpiderSTREAMS into NT was not pretty), but large chunks of the utilities remain. ...Along with Spider's stack came versions of various TCP/IP-related utility programs, such as ftp, rcp and rsh. Those were ported from BSD sockets to winsock (not a huge change) and bundled with NT. Near enough. The SpiderTCP utilities still had sockets support (NOTE: this was never sockets over TLI like the stuff some UNIX vendors bought from a Spider competitor!) and -DNO_TLI should have worked, but that TLI code is _still_ there in FTP.EXE! SpiderTCP sockets used an old BSD API, but was a rewrite to work over a kernel STREAMS socket interface to the kernel TCP/IP drivers. I don't know how much faith you can put in it, but its an interesting read. I found the following snippet to be quite curious... And implying that the TCP/IP stack uses BSD code is also false. As I said above there may be small vestiges of it in there, although I doubt it. I can't confirm thatt, but I suspect there's very little, if any, SpiderTCP code left in the TCP/IP drivers after the rewrite, and all other TCP/IP vendors of note in that market would have been using BSD derived code (even those selling STREAMS implementations, though they tended to be less modular than Spider's product). Cheers, mark. -- Mark Valentine, Thuvia Labs [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.thuvia.co.uk Tigers will do ANYTHING for a tuna fish sandwich. Mark Valentine uses We're kind of stupid that way. *munch* *munch*and endorses FreeBSD -- http://www.calvinandhobbes.com http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
On Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:16:28PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is BSDI's stack so superior to any of the other BSDs that MS would pay BSDI for it, particularly at a time when BSDI was trying to compete with MS in the server market? Seems like something that a bunch of BSD fanatics conjured up after a few beers. Are you sure that this was Microsoft. The press release that I remember from last year was a Compaq one (or was it SCO), but not Microsoft. Joe PGP signature
RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Hmm, anyone seen this then in the Wall Street J ?? Or is this what started this thread (if so I musta missed one somewhere along the line). Ak -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Josef Karthauser Sent: 18 June 2001 11:17 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? On Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:16:28PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is BSDI's stack so superior to any of the other BSDs that MS would pay BSDI for it, particularly at a time when BSDI was trying to compete with MS in the server market? Seems like something that a bunch of BSD fanatics conjured up after a few beers. Are you sure that this was Microsoft. The press release that I remember from last year was a Compaq one (or was it SCO), but not Microsoft. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
jeez, forgot the link to WSJ http://public.wsj.com/news/hmc/sb992819157437237260.htm If this is what started this forgive me for being so unobservent, we're a bit slow here in the UK sometimes (well I am that is!) Ak Hmm, anyone seen this then in the Wall Street J ?? Or is this what started this thread (if so I musta missed one somewhere along the line). Ak To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
In a message dated 06/17/2001 2:27:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 2. We're not bashing Microsoft here. We're just trying to figure out if their recently published comments that Open Source is bad and inimical to our interests is really just marketspeak which contradicts their own engineering position. - Jordan It wouldnt contradict their marketing position if they are using BSD code, because they dont make source readily available. Using open source for a commercial product which you modify and customize is not the same as making the source available for others to modify and distribute at will. I dont see how proving the microsoft uses open source code in their product proves that open source is generally good for commercial products or corporate interests. All it proves is that open source has some value as a base for more s, which I dont think that anyone, including Microsoft, disagrees with. Bryan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
I'm not sure if this will help or not but Winsock.h, Winsock2.h, and Ws2spi.h which are shipped with visual studio 6 include the following in the header: * This file includes parts which are Copyright (c) 1982-1986 Regents * of the University of California. All rights reserved. The * Berkeley Software License Agreement specifies the terms and * conditions for redistribution. */ http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/psdk/winsock/apistart_9g1e.htm mentions BSD, not sure if is direct enough. I'm downloading the SDK right now so I can grepmonkey through the latest and greatest headers, etc. HTH -- [ Joseph Mallett[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Joseph A. Mallett wrote: Do you happen to have any of their Winsock propoganda handy (specifically developer materials or winsock.h header file)? I know for a fact that they have said repetedly that some of it was taken directly from Berkely. I'm just not sure where... I'm going to start digging through my stuff to see if I can find anything. -- [ Joseph Mallett[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Sort of the other way around. We were the several FreeBSD volunteers referenced in the article. Lee's my press contact at the WSJ and he's done a number of pieces favorable to us in the past. Again, I'd like to thank the various folks on -hackers who responded (you know who you are) and were a help with this article. If nothing else, it finally got Microsoft to publically admit that we're STILL at Hotmail rather than saying, as they have in the past, that FreeBSD was completely removed and replaced with Windows. :-) - Jordan From: Andy [Tecc Nops] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:37:44 +0100 jeez, forgot the link to WSJ http://public.wsj.com/news/hmc/sb992819157437237260.htm If this is what started this forgive me for being so unobservent, we're a bit slow here in the UK sometimes (well I am that is!) Ak Hmm, anyone seen this then in the Wall Street J ?? Or is this what started this thread (if so I musta missed one somewhere along the line). Ak To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
+ Adam wrote: | I'm not sure if this will help or not but Winsock.h, Winsock2.h, and Ws2spi.h | which are shipped with visual studio 6 include the following in the header: | | * This file includes parts which are Copyright (c) 1982-1986 Regents | * of the University of California. All rights reserved. The | * Berkeley Software License Agreement specifies the terms and | * conditions for redistribution. | */ that only implies that they copied parts of the API - it doesn't give any indication of what code is underneath. -- Steve Tremblett To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Josef Karthauser wrote: On Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:16:28PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is BSDI's stack so superior to any of the other BSDs that MS would pay BSDI for it, particularly at a time when BSDI was trying to compete with MS in the server market? Seems like something that a bunch of BSD fanatics conjured up after a few beers. Are you sure that this was Microsoft. The press release that I remember from last year was a Compaq one (or was it SCO), but not Microsoft. Definitely not SCO. Though SCO's Great Networking Achievement of year 2000 was an implementation of in-kernel sockets (as opposed to the user-level library over TLI) so there is a chance that you had it confused with this. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as
to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user
utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the
community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to
be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and
DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling
proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques
for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be
very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know.
I don't know what you are trying to get from all this,
especially the It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to
know. part.
It all sounds really odd to me but alas a cat does stupid things when it
gets cornered...
I sincerely hope that you BSD guysgals stay far far away from the
microsoft is evil, we can't win it easily so let's bash it to
hell-attitude.
{and that's my opinion, it's a freespeech world so don't start flaming
me all of a sudden)
Now for the hackers@freebsd (and the important) part of this reply:
The easiest and public way to search for evidence is to head over to
http://msdn.microsoft.com which is the
Microsoft Developer Network site and which contains most of the
documentation you'll probably ever need.
The stuff about the BSD *API* which is in use by probably every single
OS having TCP/IP support.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/devprods/vs6/visualc/vccore/_core_wind
ows_sockets.3a_.background.htm
Be glad they use and acknowledge the BSD API Porting socket apps
would be much more difficult then.
8--
The Windows Sockets specification defines a binary-compatible network
programming interface for Microsoft Windows. Windows Sockets are based
on the UNIXR sockets implementation in the Berkeley Software
Distribution (BSD, release 4.3) from the University of California at
Berkeley. The specification includes both BSD-style socket routines and
extensions specific to Windows. Using Windows Sockets permits your
application to communicate across any network that conforms to the
Windows Sockets API. On Win32, Windows Sockets provide for thread
safety.
--8
You should also check:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/devprods/vs6/visualc/vccore/_core_wind
ows_sockets_topics.htm
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/psdk/winsock/apistart_9g1e.htm
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/techart/msdn_wsockets.htm
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/backgrnd/html/tcpipintro.htm
Another nice thing to read is:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/devprods/vs6/visualc/vccore/_core_port
_from_unix_to_win32.htm
Which notes how to port Unix apps to Win32
Now for some nice technical stuff...
Let's run depends over the c:\winnt\system32\drivers\tcpip.sys (version
5.0.2195.2910)
These are the functions:
FreeIprBuff
GetIFAndLink
IPAddInterface
IPAllocBuff
IPDelayedNdisReEnumerateBindings
IPDelInterface
IPDeregisterARP
IPDisableSniffer
IPEnableSniffer
IPFreeBuff
IPGetAddrType
IPGetBestInterface
IPGetInfo
IPInjectPkt
IPProxyNdisRequest
IPRegisterARP
IPRegisterProtocol
IPSetIPSecStatus
IPTransmit
LookupRoute
LookupRouteInformation
LookupRouteInformationWithBuffer
SendICMPErr
SetIPSecPtr
tcpxsum
UnSetIPSecPtr
UnSetIPSecSendPtr
Wow those really look like BSD functions :)
Ofcourse they don't because Windows uses a completely different driver
communication model compared to most other Operating Systems which are
around.
Note that this is documented (ofcourse)
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/psdk/winsock/ovrvw3_9xma.htm
8-
Deviation from Berkeley Sockets
There are a few limited instances where Windows Sockets has had to
divert from strict adherence to the Berkeley conventions, usually due to
implementation difficulties in the MicrosoftR Windows environment.
-8
Introduction to NDIS:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/wcedoc/wceddk/ndis_1.htm
Though it states it's for Windows CE it does also apply to WinNT per the
model and such but the DDK isn't online at MS as far as I can see so
fast... but google found this nice link:
http://www.osr.com/ddk/303tdi_7ron.htm.
And finaly for all the people who are well minded enough to read to the
end I've saved the best for last:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/winnt/reskit/sur_tcp2.asp - Chapter 6 -
TCP/IP Implementation Details
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/win2000/win2ksrv/technote/tcpipimp.asp?
a=frame - MS Windows 2000 TCP/IP Implementation Details
And some more reading for all of you:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/win2000/win2ksrv/reskit/tcpch01.asp?a=f
rame - Introduction to TCP/IP
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/win2000/win2ksrv/technote/ispstep.asp?a
=frame - Step-by-Step Guide to Internet Protocol Security (IPSec)
Well here you have your 'facts'
You can bet they've very probably looked at *BSD Linux others TCP/IP
code but only way you ever going to be sure
they are using your code is (to
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:16:20PM +0200, Jeroen Massar wrote:
Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as
to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user
utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the
community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to
be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and
DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling
proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques
for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be
very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know.
I don't know what you are trying to get from all this,
especially the It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to
know. part.
It all sounds really odd to me but alas a cat does stupid things when it
gets cornered...
I sincerely hope that you BSD guysgals stay far far away from the
microsoft is evil, we can't win it easily so let's bash it to
hell-attitude.
{and that's my opinion, it's a freespeech world so don't start flaming
me all of a sudden)
Your technical arguments are very nice and may turn out to be useful.
However, I can't say I agree with your comments. Jordan did NOT say
that he wanted to prove MS had, like, stolen the BSD networking code;
he merely said he was interested in proving or disproving any degree
of BSD-derivation of the Windows TCP/IP stack.
Saying that Solaris, IRIX, AIX and who-not have great parts of the
OS derived from SysV or BSD code is not really 'bashing' those OS's,
is it? There is still a large amount of their own code, created
with a large amount of work put in; the 'derived' part simply means
that they have given credit to others' work by reusing it.
Thus, if it turns out that Microsoft have really derived their TCP/IP
stack from the BSD one, this would not mean they've stolen the BSD stack
for lack of wits to write their own; it would simply means that they have
decided that the BSD stack was a nice piece of code, and it would not have
been worth it to put in all the effort necessary to rewrite it from
the ground up.
G'luck,
Peter
--
What would this sentence be like if it weren't self-referential?
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RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
From: Jeroen Massar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:16:20 +0200 It all sounds really odd to me but alas a cat does stupid things when it gets cornered... I sincerely hope that you BSD guysgals stay far far away from the microsoft is evil, we can't win it easily so let's bash it to hell-attitude. 1. We're not cornered. 2. We're not bashing Microsoft here. We're just trying to figure out if their recently published comments that Open Source is bad and inimical to our interests is really just marketspeak which contradicts their own engineering position. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeroen Massar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It all sounds really odd to me but alas a cat does stupid things when it gets cornered... I sincerely hope that you BSD guysgals stay far far away from the microsoft is evil, we can't win it easily so let's bash it to hell-attitude. ^-- did you notice this piece I hope you did I really didn't take the time of searching for those references, which you asked for (confirming or disproving this assertion) just to kick you down or something. It was also only a figure of speech... I was only warning (big word :) for the stuff that happened to especially all those linux advocates (see slashdot.org for your daily propaganda :) and/or what happened back in the Amiga vs Windows vs Atari etc days. http://www.openbsd.org/goals.html luckily states: Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the basis of technical merit. That goes for OpenBSD and I think/hope for all the other BSD's, I hope you understand what I mean with all of this :) 1. We're not cornered. But you are doing propaganda actions (newpaper :)... which for some people really leeds to think that you are... I am also wondering why you wanted to get a complete press release out so quickly but that we'll all see on Monday :) I am glad you sorted me out on that point, got me a bit worried though. 2. We're not bashing Microsoft here. We're just trying to figure out if their recently published comments that Open Source is bad and inimical to our interests is really just marketspeak which contradicts their own engineering position. Well the marketing division of Microsoft prolly never reported any negative cashflow :) Then again you are kinda indicating here that you are worried as you do respond to something you think is very propaganda alike. And in another thread (Summary: Is Microsoft using the BSD TCP/IP stack?): It's apparently just not possible to really tell for sure without looking at the source code, and it was not possible to get ahold of any of the University licensee's or Microsoft developers in time to go into that level of detail. There were a few telltales, however, such as the TCP initial window in Windows 2000 being exactly the same as FreeBSD and OpenBSD and a few headers in Microsoft Visual studio, as well as various userland utilities, bearing the BSD trademark. You could also have checked out http://research.microsoft.com/msripv6/ which has full source code to the IPv6 stack, though it's the Research version, so it's not exactly what's going production in WinXP (as currently found in the beta's :). And the headers only describe the BSD API which is, I repeat, in use by almost any TCP/IP stack there is, so there is absoletely no conclusion you can take from that. One can very easily port a BSD-socket API using program by adding the openingclosing of the winsock.dll which is the biggest part you'll need to do unless you are using things like raw sockets and such (see http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/devprods/vs6/visualc/vccore/_core_port :) The userland tools are very probably based on the BSD code though but in what extent... that's really hard to say, and they've probabably also been very much altered. In any case, I'd like to thank everyone for their help and suggest that those interested read Monday's (June 18th) Wall Street Journal for some of the results of their research. I'll surelly check it out to see what it states... I hope this at least makes my point clear as I am really not advocating any OS whatsoever... (Amiga Rulez grin :) Greets, Jeroen PS: rest of the discussion can prolly go to /dev/null as it won't have any more impact on the newspaper thingy, I just wanted it straightened from my side. PS2: Jordan... You are ofcourse allowed to bash me with good argumentation for this as you may see fit. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
microsoft is evil, we can't win it easily so let's bash it to microsoft /is/ evil. point in fact they're one of the most unethical capitalist organizations you could find as far as their business practices are concerned. unfortunately, the masses are also too stupid to protect themselves. peace, brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Sergey Babkin wrote: | Brian Wolter wrote: | |microsoft is evil, we can't win it easily so let's bash it to | | microsoft /is/ evil. point in fact they're one of the most unethical | ^^^ | capitalist organizations you could find as far as their business | ^^ | | Translation: a socialist/communist organisation. This BS has gone on long enough. It has nothing to do with the hackers list -- take it to chat if you must continue it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Doesn't any one remember Netiquette these days and trim what they are replying to?? [ thread left below to see how bad this is getting.. ] On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:42:35PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: This is a good reference, but sadly it only really refers to the sockets paradigm as first popularized by BSD, which means they could have followed the API without touching a single line of BSD code. To reiterate: What I'm looking for is some true, hard evidence that Microsoft has used BSD code in any of their operating systems. A number of people have sent me anecdotal evidence and I heard from a friend type stories, but sadly I cannot use any of that. What I need is tangible proof - the people working on this story have already heard all the stories and now what they're looking for is the kind of confirmation that can be cited and independently verified. I can't name names, but suffice it to say that it will be a small (and very visible) coup for us if we can help them prove this. Thanks. - Jordan From: Joseph A. Mallett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:06:23 -0400 (EDT) http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/psdk/winsock/apistart_9g1e.htm mentions BSD, not sure if is direct enough. I'm downloading the SDK right now so I can grepmonkey through the latest and greatest headers, etc. HTH -- [ Joseph Mallett[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Joseph A. Mallett wrote: Do you happen to have any of their Winsock propoganda handy (specifically developer materials or winsock.h header file)? I know for a fact that they have said repetedly that some of it was taken directly from Berkely. I'm just not sure where... I'm going to start digging through my stuff to see if I can find anything. -- [ Joseph Mallett[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Doesn't any one remember Netiquette these days and trim what they are replying to?? No. Every month is September. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Hi, I agree with Serger Babkin - strings(1) wouldn't help. Main keywords are: ndis.vxd , vip.386 , vtcp.386 . Any DLL's has nothing common with TCP/IP stack - at least on md 9x. Sergey Babkin wrote: I know one way but it's a hard one: disassemble and manually decomiple the code and compare it with the BSD code. I've once done such a research on the HP-UX pty code (for other reasons) and it matched the BSD code practically exactly except for the added spin locks. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jordan Hubbard) Date: Fri 15 Jun, 2001 Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? root@winston- strings FTP.EXE |grep University of California @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. You can't tell much from the utilities, there are still too many obvious traces of the proprietary product they originally licensed (much of which was not BSD-derived, and the stuff that was ended up less BSD-like - try looking at a few of lines of context around the above grep to see inexplicable traces of TLI interface code). I suspect that not much if anything is left of the kernel code they initially deployed, though (which was definitely very un-BSD in origin --you can see from old NT documentation that it was a STREAMS implementation, but you really don't want to know what form it took prior to that!-- though it gained some BSD code later on - can't recall whether any of that was prior to MS getting it). Microsoft should, however, definitely have been acknowledging BSD code in their documentation right from the start, until that clause was repealed (the documentation they bought did). This includes the Wolverine stuff they gave out as an add-on to Windows for Workgroups, which had a similar FTP.EXE and so on (Wolverine was released after the original NT TCP/IP implementation). However, I can't offer any concrete proof as to whether their core TCP/IP implementation migrated to BSD code (though I would certainly expect it to be so, as there wasn't much else to choose from back then if I remember), and I no longer work alongside folks who might have tracked that stuff better. Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Valentine, Thuvia Labs [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.thuvia.co.uk Tigers will do ANYTHING for a tuna fish sandwich. Mark Valentine uses We're kind of stupid that way. *munch* *munch*and endorses FreeBSD -- http://www.calvinandhobbes.com http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
is BSDI's stack so superior to any of the other BSDs that MS would pay BSDI for it, particularly at a time when BSDI was trying to compete with MS in the server market? Seems like something that a bunch of BSD fanatics conjured up after a few beers. Bryan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
In the previous episode, Jordan Hubbard said: Not really, I don't have any contacts there. Sigh. I didn't think proving this would be quite so hard. :( If you issue the following command on hub: % grep microsoft.com freebsd-* 2/dev/null you may be able to find some contacts there. Any Microsoft employee should be able to find an appropriate contact through their Enterprise Directory or Exchange Global Address List, so locating the group/division should not be a problem. But the question is, are they willing to respond? --dk To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
What I read awhile back was MS licensed from BSDi their TCP/IP stack for use in W2K. Steve B. - Original Message - From: Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Do you have a pointer to what you read? I really need HARD evidence here, not just anecdotal stuff. Thanks! - Jordan From: Steve B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:59:51 -0700 What I read awhile back was MS licensed from BSDi their TCP/IP stack for use in W2K. Steve B. - Original Message - From: Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Do you happen to have any of their Winsock propoganda handy (specifically developer materials or winsock.h header file)? I know for a fact that they have said repetedly that some of it was taken directly from Berkely. I'm just not sure where... I'm going to start digging through my stuff to see if I can find anything. -- [ Joseph Mallett[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. I think the nmap folks noticed that the stack in Win98 (I don't remember if it was in Win2K as wll) behaved almost exactly like the BSD stack in ways that weren't mandatory. Their conclusion was that it had to be based on the BSD code to get such similar behavior, since no other stack behaved in this manner. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/psdk/winsock/apistart_9g1e.htm mentions BSD, not sure if is direct enough. I'm downloading the SDK right now so I can grepmonkey through the latest and greatest headers, etc. HTH -- [ Joseph Mallett[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Joseph A. Mallett wrote: Do you happen to have any of their Winsock propoganda handy (specifically developer materials or winsock.h header file)? I know for a fact that they have said repetedly that some of it was taken directly from Berkely. I'm just not sure where... I'm going to start digging through my stuff to see if I can find anything. -- [ Joseph Mallett[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
With the full knowledge that what I'm saying will probably be of no use, I have a personal friend who is a Microsoft certified developer, with full access to the source code of most Windows versions and other well-known Microsoft apps. He has told me more than once that, yes, the NT TCP/IP stack is somewhat BSD-derived, but from other conversations I gather that he has had to change things on his personal machines (things that never made it, and probably never will, in any MS official distribution), to make it *more* BSD-like. I'll ask him for details, and for any links, but you shouldn't really expect an answer before Monday.. G'luck, Peter -- When you are not looking at it, this sentence is in Spanish. On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:01:17PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: Do you have a pointer to what you read? I really need HARD evidence here, not just anecdotal stuff. Thanks! - Jordan From: Steve B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:59:51 -0700 What I read awhile back was MS licensed from BSDi their TCP/IP stack for use in W2K. Steve B. - Original Message - From: Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. Thanks! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
According to Jordan Hubbard: Do you have a pointer to what you read? I really need HARD evidence here, not just anecdotal stuff. Thanks! If you do a strings on ftp.exe (at least in win95), you should find some BSD copyright strings. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- [EMAIL PROTECTED] FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #80: Sun Jun 4 22:44:19 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
This is a good reference, but sadly it only really refers to the sockets paradigm as first popularized by BSD, which means they could have followed the API without touching a single line of BSD code. To reiterate: What I'm looking for is some true, hard evidence that Microsoft has used BSD code in any of their operating systems. A number of people have sent me anecdotal evidence and I heard from a friend type stories, but sadly I cannot use any of that. What I need is tangible proof - the people working on this story have already heard all the stories and now what they're looking for is the kind of confirmation that can be cited and independently verified. I can't name names, but suffice it to say that it will be a small (and very visible) coup for us if we can help them prove this. Thanks. - Jordan From: Joseph A. Mallett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:06:23 -0400 (EDT) http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/psdk/winsock/apistart_9g1e.htm mentions BSD, not sure if is direct enough. I'm downloading the SDK right now so I can grepmonkey through the latest and greatest headers, etc. HTH -- [ Joseph Mallett[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Joseph A. Mallett wrote: Do you happen to have any of their Winsock propoganda handy (specifically developer materials or winsock.h header file)? I know for a fact that they have said repetedly that some of it was taken directly from Berkely. I'm just not sure where... I'm going to start digging through my stuff to see if I can find anything. -- [ Joseph Mallett[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Thanks, that represents the first hard hit I've seen yet: root@winston- strings FTP.EXE |grep University of California @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. Now if we can just locate something in the kernel or a well-used DLL.. - Jordan From: Ollivier Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:30:13 +0200 According to Jordan Hubbard: Do you have a pointer to what you read? I really need HARD evidence here, not just anecdotal stuff. Thanks! If you do a strings on ftp.exe (at least in win95), you should find some BSD copyright strings. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- [EMAIL PROTECTED] FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #80: Sun Jun 4 22:44:19 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:05:17PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. I think the nmap folks noticed that the stack in Win98 (I don't remember if it was in Win2K as wll) behaved almost exactly like the BSD stack in ways that weren't mandatory. Their conclusion was that it had to be based on the BSD code to get such similar behavior, since no other stack behaved in this manner. One signature of this might be vulnerability history: there have been a number of corner-case IP stack vulnerabilities over the years which were also shared by Windows and may indicate a common code heritage. Of course, it's still not conclusive. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
From: Joseph Mallett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Well, looking through headers, a lot of stuff says taken from the BSD file..., namely winsock.h and winsock2.h, at the very least it appears they have designed it with some goal of being backwards compatible with BSD sockets by using BSD structures, functions, whatever, but the actual winsock code may or may not be taken from BSD. Is there anyone at Microsoft you could ask? Not really, I don't have any contacts there. Sigh. I didn't think proving this would be quite so hard. :( - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
I'll see if I can dig it up it was awhile back in one of the trade magazines or their ezine. Steve B. - Original Message - From: Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 2:01 PM Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Do you have a pointer to what you read? I really need HARD evidence here, not just anecdotal stuff. Thanks! - Jordan From: Steve B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:59:51 -0700 What I read awhile back was MS licensed from BSDi their TCP/IP stack for use in W2K. Steve B. - Original Message - From: Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:47:21PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: Thanks, that represents the first hard hit I've seen yet: root@winston- strings FTP.EXE |grep University of California @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. Here's one more: (echo) [system32]$ strings NSLOOKUP.EXE | grep -i copyright @(#) Copyright (c) 1985,1989 Regents of the University of California. Now if we can just locate something in the kernel or a well-used DLL.. No similar luck with any of the DLL's on my Windows 2000 file system. -- Jon Parise ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) . Rochester Inst. of Technology http://www.csh.rit.edu/~jon/ : Computer Science House Member To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
In the last episode (Jun 15), Jordan Hubbard said: Thanks, that represents the first hard hit I've seen yet: root@winston- strings FTP.EXE |grep University of California @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. But this probably just means that FTP.EXE is based off the BSD ftp source; you're looking for evidence that the kernel itself has BSD stack code in it, right? -- Dan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code?
Jordan Hubbard wrote: I've had several marketing types approach me recently for details as to whether or not Microsoft was using the BSD TCP/IP stack and/or user utilities, and though it's always been common knowledge in the community that they were, when I set about to prove it I found it to be less easy than I'd thought. I've strings'd various binaries and DLLs in my copy of Windows 98 but have yet to find anything resembling proof. Does anyone out there have any details or discovery techniques for confirming or disproving this assertion either way? It would be very useful (for us) from a PR standpoint to know. I know one way but it's a hard one: disassemble and manually decomiple the code and compare it with the BSD code. I've once done such a research on the HP-UX pty code (for other reasons) and it matched the BSD code practically exactly except for the added spin locks. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-hackers in the body of the message
