Re: BSD Question's.
Miguel Saturnino wrote: On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 07:34 -0800, Danial Thom wrote: Well, that's your opinion. For me, FreeBSD is a much better desktop than Windows -- it runs solid and fast and enables me to be more productive in my work. Of course, what is good for me might not be so good for someone else, I guess it depends on your needs. Some Linux distros are much easier to setup than FreeBSD, so they might be a more recommendable desktop for someone with less technical knowledge. Ever tried DesktopBSD (www.desktopbsd.org) or PcBSD (www.pcbsd.org)? Unless the Linux-distros provides you with a geek that does the installation for you, I can possible see how they could be easier to setup. Yes, you talk about FreeBSD, but after all both DesktopBSD and PcBSD are basically just preconfigured and pre-packaged versions of FreeBSD. For anyone looking for a BSD-based desktop OS, I highly recommend the two mentioned above. I was surprised to see how extremely userfriendly they were despite being relatively new projects. -- R ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On 12/24/05, Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop, and that there is no perfect solution that works perfectly in every scenario? FreeBSD and Linux *should* focus on server functions, because that is where MS is weak and that is where its needed. There will likely never be a solid reason to use BSD or linux as a desktop other than religion; while there are many compelling reasons to use BSD and/or linux servers. I've been using FreeBSD on my desktop since 1997 because I found it to be superior to either Windows or Linux. In 1997 it was easier to install than either (well, configuring X was still a trick back then, but the basic OS install was easier). Now they are all pretty much the same, any of them can give you problems on a specific system. The important thing for a desktop system is the user interface (the GUI), and in FreeBSD (and many versions of Linux), you have many choices in that regard. I use KDE, in part because it is easy to use if you are used to Windows. Others prefer Gnome, apparently because it is as much unlike Windows as its designers can manage. And there are literally dozens of others, but most of them are probably not good choices for beginners (because they often require a lot of customization to take advantage of their individual features). At the present time I cringe every time I have to use Windows. My wife has an XP system at home that she uses for her job, so we are sort if stuck with it. All users must share the same default email program, so I'm stuck with Outlook. All users must share the same screen resolution, so I'm stuck with the low resolution that my wife prefers. The video drivers (I've tried both ATI and nVidia cards) are constantly locking up the system -- anyone who tries to tell me Windows XP is stable gets a big laugh from me. In dozens of little ways, the Windows user interface is junk. Yes, by sheer brute force they manage to keep it usable for most people, but when you've used alternatives, it's flaws are far more visible. KDE running on FreeBSD, on the other hand, lets each user pick their own preferences for basically everything. Certainly it has its own flaws, and yes, you could run KDE on Linux instead of FreeBSD and avoid a few quirks the combination exhibits, and perhaps a non-computer type should do so, but every time I read local Linux support list I marvel at how much trouble the Linux people have doing things that seem easy in FreeBSD, so I'm happy where I am. And this list provides excellent support for those who need help. The big disadvantage of FreeBSD (and Linux)? Fewer hardware drivers. For example, I have a film scanner that I haven't figured out how to use in FreeBSD, so to use it I have to use Windows (with the aforementioned low screen resolution!). If you have specific hardware you need to use, be sure it is supported by the operating system you choose. One caution: Linux isn't an operating system. It is a family of operating systems. Some of them are oriented toward professional users, others are oriented toward ease of use by computer beginners, etc. If you decide to go with Linux, selecting the right one will be important. When you try to be everything to everyone and you don't have the resources of a MS, then you end up with mediocre results. Decide what you want to be, and be the best at it. That should be the mantra of any product development team, regardless of the genre. And Microsoft has proven that even with their resources, you still get mediocre results. For the most part, a good server operating system is also a good desktop operating system if you add a good user interface, so you can add KDE (or any of several other choices) to FreeBSD and get a good desktop system. On the other hand, a system designed to be a desktop operating system is unlikely to perform well as a server, hence Microsoft's lack of impressiveness in that regard. - Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
If you want to try an different Desktop replacement OS over Windows XP I would say you would have better luck with something like Linspire. But the truth is there isn't much difference at all between any Linux distribution or FreeBSD and when I see the latest Linux review on some of those so called professional OS review sites I sometimes laugh my ass off, heres why. Firstly they give you screen shots of the latest KDE, this always makes chuckle since KDE is KDE, its the same on any OS even in Windows XP, why bother doing it at all, it just shows that these reviews aren't reviews of the OS at all rather then just reviewing free software you can install on anything. Then they show you screen shots of other things such as Gaim, and various multimedia players, OpenOffice etc, all of them that do work in FreeBSD as well. When you review an OS thats built on OTHER peoples free software you don't really have much to show at all. Normally the only differences are the installer / configurator and the package management system. It could be RPM, debian or gentoo based. Or some other system thats ultimately just as a tarball with a few text files in them to allow you to know what it is and its dependencies. These are the only things that most open source based OS's have to show thats any different, and the day I see an OS review that just shows you there package management system and there installer/configurator then I know why are looking at a proper free software OS review. I use FreeBSD as my desktop on my Laptop as its best for me because I connect to a lot of Unix boxes via ssh, and to me when you spend a lot of time dealing with Unix servers then the best way to deal with them is via Unix its self. (BTW when I say Unix I mean it in the generic way just like Apple and most non-lost people do. http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/06/11/2231244tid=130tid=3 ) The reason I use FreeBSD as my desktop is that I believe I have the most flexibility via cvsup and ports, but this comes at the cost of more manual configuration. I can install/upgrade the latest KDE with a simple command like below, and I can also easily deal with any problems it puts in front of me, but others can't, this would be the biggest problem for new users. portupgrade -N /usr/ports/x11/kde3 If you not comfortable with that then you need something more auto magic like Linspire but face the fact you might not have an easy upgrade path or even have one at all. I enjoy using the latest versions of all the free software that is available to a free OS such as FreeBSD or Linux and don't like being stuck on old versions. Windows XP is the result of years of investment (billion $) and work at MS and you dont hear people complain about it nearly as much as older versions of Windows, this is due to a variety of reasons from the need for high end hardware vs stable OS. You can even download white papers/benchmarks from MS saying how it takes 10million CPU cycles to load a single simple process over it taking 900,000 CPU cycles on FreeBSD and 2million in Linux and MS will explain to you why their OS is better then the others in every way but its always up to you. Mike Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). On 12/24/05, Andy Sjostrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To whom this may concern, H-E-L-P! LOL! I've been online since 1992( the windows 3.1 days for me.) I'm 48 yrs.old. and also a windows XP user. Because of recent issue I have had with Mr. William Gates and his product. about every 6 months I have had to overhaul my windows XP. during the last up grade I was told that my XP product code was invaild, then when is made the repair up grades something in my registory changed, and when that auto updater downloaded the new security patches it somehow downloaded 2969 trojans as well. I have decided to start the search for a new OS. In my case the new OS must be completely 100 percent user friendly. Please bare in mind that 100 percent means NO CODE writting. I'm not a programer...LOL! I run a very small one man company at, http://www.geocities.com/andy_sjostrom/index.html From time to time I also like to rip and burn a CD as well, Publish articles to my yahoo 360 blog. edit a few images from time to to time. surf the net, copy and paste, chat with friends in my favorite yahoo chat room. fold protiens for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] project at stanford U.
RE: BSD Question's.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Danial Thom Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 6:28 PM To: Beech Rintoul; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Question's. --- Beech Rintoul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 26 December 2005 07:24 am, Danial Thom wrote: --- dick hoogendijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24 Dec Kent Stewart wrote: There is also the problem that some sites are designed to work with Internet Explorer. You can try to visit with firefox but that doesn't always work even with firefox on XP. NO site should be designed to work with IExplorer. I know it's done, but it should not! Why do we have W3C? If we could all just do things by the book the internet would be a much nicer place to visit. People who design for IExplorer are bad! They have microsoft in mind and _not_ the visitors. I hate it when choice gets violated! It should be called a crime against freedom. No, you're wrong here. You're letting your religious philosophy cloud your business sense. You develop to service the highest percentage of your expected viewer base. The truth is that the vast majority of visitors to most web sites are going to be using IE. While using unnecessary features as a primary component of your site that ONLY work with IE is foolish, you can't compromise your design just so that it will work with the 3% of religious fanatics that refuse to install IE on thier machines. Business is about numbers, and the numbers say that your site HAS to work with IE, and its nice if it works with others. I generally test with IE, Firefox and Netscape and I don't care much about much else. I have a friend in the travel biz who gets an unusual amount of traffic from AOL, because most of his customers are not computer people. His site needs to be well tested on AOL, where I couldn't really give a rat's behind if my commercial site works with AOL or not. You have to make sure your site works with the greatest majority of browsers available that will be accessing any given site. Its unfortunate that MS does what they want rather than following the standards, but in reality the standards should follow MS, because its really the only way to make everything work. Much of Microsoft's extra stuff is pretty useful and arguably better; its time the unix geeks get over it and stop whining about the big bad bully for the good of the big picture. MS isn't going away anytime soon. The truth is that anything MS does is a de-facto standard, whether you like it or not. DT I guess we should just throw out w3c and assign the task to microsoft. While wer'e at it lets get rid of all net standards. After all microsoft is so far ahead we'll never catch up. Beech Cisco makes their own standards for networking, and if you want to play in the game you have to be compatible. They do - however they clearly delineate between their standard (for example IGRP) and the public standard (ie: OSPF) and when they support both, they endeavor to adhere to the public standard, in their implementation of it. There would not be a problem if Microsoft inserted a switch in IE where the user could select M-HTML (Microsoft HTML) or W3C-HTML (actual HTML). The problem is that Microsoft intermixes the two. It doesn't really matter what the accepted standard is; its the one that *most* people are using. If W3C adopted all the Microsoft changes to HTML it would not help, Microsoft would break them in future versions. Even in the Microsoft way, there is no consistency in Microsoft's own so-called standards. A guy I used to work with used to say at least once a day The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. I think a lot of people would be happy to go with the Microsoft standard if it wasn't a constantly changing target. It defeats the purpose of a standard to begin with. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On 26 Dec Danial Thom wrote: It doesn't really matter what the accepted standard is; its the one that *most* people are using. Bring this rule to society and it won't take all that much time before we'll live in a jungle (happely ever after ? ;-) It's the decease of this era that lost of people find it diffcult to honor rules except their own. I know the saying money makes the world turn around I disagree. -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 6.0 +++ The Power to Serve ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 09:27 am, Danial Thom wrote: Schwab Streetsmart Accounting Software (CA) Quicken Photoshop Adobe Acrobat (for creating PDFs) Those are the ones I use daily. Surely there are some half-assed alternatives for some of these, but if I have to use something inferior to use FreeBSD then thats a point against it. This is all a question of the applications you need. My game is full custom integrated circuit design and suitable CAD software is available, at a price, on most unix style systems including Solaris, HP-UX, various Linux distributions and FreeBSD. In this field it is the Windows half-assed alternatives that are distinctly inferior. Also, what you missed, was that I mentioned that you can be relatively sure that any hardware will have drivers for windows, while with FreeBSD you're never quite sure. Its also nice when you get a new printer or scanner to not have a 3 day project to get it to work. For sure Windows has drivers such as the WNT postscript driver that stuffs up scaling calculations for certain target resolutions of the photolithography machines so that art work generated from PCB layout packages is several percent out in size, and is therfore of course useless. It took much more than 3 days to track down the problem and generate a utility to post process the Microsoft postscript output to turn it into something usable. Eventually we discovered the problem was admitted somewhere in the Microsoft Knowledge Base and had been known for sometime without any upgrade or work around offered. Such simple known problems just do not persist in FreeBSD. The only point I made was that FreeBSD is focused on server functions and that is justified by the simple fact that it will never be as useful as windows; if for no other reason than there simply aren't the resources for FreeBSD to be a good server and also a competitive desktop. The Windows resources are really applied over a rather narrow range of popular applications. Go outside that range and and other systems are more than competitive. Malcolm Kay ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 01:03 am, Danial Thom wrote: --- Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2005-12-24 14:01, Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don Hinton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For me, FreeBSD is about twice as fast/easy to install/configure, and infinitely cheaper. Considering that WinXP usually comes on the computer, I don't see how installing and configuring FreeBSD can be easier than having to do nothing at all? Windows XP comes preinstalled, yes. Not preconfigured too. It so happens that configuring a Windows XP system to match one's preferences has the potential to: a) Screw the machine up so completely and utterly that a reinstall is required. b) Take a lot of time. A huge lot of time, because of all the different 'driver' installation processes. I have installed numerous sytems including various versions of MS-DOS and Windows, OS/2, OS/9, Linux distributions and large range of FreeBSD releases. There have been some difficulties from time to time but with one exception these all yielded to study+reason. The one exception was an XP diagnostic build on which I eventually admitted defeat. Ate you claiming that someone not familiar with how to configure FreeBSD can't screw it up beyond usefulness? I can point you at about 10% of my customers who've spent weeks just trying to compile a kernel and get basic networking working, much less a desktop with X. I would claim that XP is quite capable of screwing up its system without any real help from the user. I installed a HP all-in-one scanner-plotter on my a NEC laptop running XP professional and this worked fairly well until HP suggested I should update the software. Thereafter some minor annoyances/bugs appeared. I decided that I should go back to the original so I activated the system unistall utility on the HP software. After partly removing the software the utility reported errors; that it could not complete the uninstall. Nor would the original installation rerun because it thought it was already there. So now I don't have access to the all-in-one. Removing all the directories on the machine identified as from HP and registry entries in identified as HP allowed some reintallation to proceed but it is incomplete and doesn't run. I have never experienced this sort of lockout on a FreeBSD system. It is looking as though I will need to do a completely new XP installation -- which I am not looking forward to. It has been said before Windows is OK until something goes wrong; but then it is mostly unfixable. Malcolm Kay ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2005 8:35:04 AM Malcolm Kay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: BSD Question's. Wrote these words of wisdom: I would claim that XP is quite capable of screwing up its system without any real help from the user. I installed a HP all-in-one scanner-plotter on my a NEC laptop running XP professional and this worked fairly well until HP suggested I should update the software. Thereafter some minor annoyances/bugs appeared. I decided that I should go back to the original so I activated the system unistall utility on the HP software. After partly removing the software the utility reported errors; that it could not complete the uninstall. Nor would the original installation rerun because it thought it was already there. So now I don't have access to the all-in-one. Removing all the directories on the machine identified as from HP and registry entries in identified as HP allowed some reintallation to proceed but it is incomplete and doesn't run. I have never experienced this sort of lockout on a FreeBSD system. It is looking as though I will need to do a completely new XP installation -- which I am not looking forward to. It has been said before Windows is OK until something goes wrong; but then it is mostly unfixable. Malcolm Kay * REPLY SEPARATOR * On 10/11/2005 5:29:42 PM, Gerard Replied: Get a copy of JV16 Power Tools and run that. Then check the HP site for specific programs that DO totally uninstall their software. HP is notorious for this behavior. Even Symantec on occasion pulls this stunt. -- Gerard Seibert [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- dick hoogendijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26 Dec Danial Thom wrote: It doesn't really matter what the accepted standard is; its the one that *most* people are using. Bring this rule to society and it won't take all that much time before we'll live in a jungle (happely ever after ? ;-) It's the decease of this era that lost of people find it diffcult to honor rules except their own. I know the saying money makes the world turn around I disagree. Well if you're going to snip all of the context out then you can't possibly have a credible argument. You might as well go work for a newspaper. __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On 27 Dec Danial Thom wrote: --- dick hoogendijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26 Dec Danial Thom wrote: It doesn't really matter what the accepted standard is; its the one that *most* people are using. Bring this rule to society and it won't take all that much time before we'll live in a jungle (happely ever after ? ;-) It's the decease of this era that lost of people find it diffcult to honor rules except their own. I know the saying money makes the world turn around I disagree. Well if you're going to snip all of the context out then you can't possibly have a credible argument. You might as well go work for a newspaper. I think my argument stands. The context is in the threat (as you well know, because it's been written by you). Furthermore you don't seem to think highly of people working for newspapers. Personally I don't look down on people, no matter their work nor social status. -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 6.0 ++ The Power to Serve ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- Malcolm Kay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 09:27 am, Danial Thom wrote: Schwab Streetsmart Accounting Software (CA) Quicken Photoshop Adobe Acrobat (for creating PDFs) Those are the ones I use daily. Surely there are some half-assed alternatives for some of these, but if I have to use something inferior to use FreeBSD then thats a point against it. This is all a question of the applications you need. My game is full custom integrated circuit design and suitable CAD software is available, at a price, on most unix style systems including Solaris, HP-UX, various Linux distributions and FreeBSD. In this field it is the Windows half-assed alternatives that are distinctly inferior. No, its a point of applications that one would reasonably need to run a business. I can't run a business from your CAD workstation. I can't live without accounting software. I would hardly call apps such as Cadence half-assed, even if you prefer something else. In fact, Candence runs on Windows, Linux and Solaris but NOT FreeBSD, and its by far the most used product the market in that genre. DT __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- dick hoogendijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 27 Dec Danial Thom wrote: --- dick hoogendijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26 Dec Danial Thom wrote: It doesn't really matter what the accepted standard is; its the one that *most* people are using. Bring this rule to society and it won't take all that much time before we'll live in a jungle (happely ever after ? ;-) It's the decease of this era that lost of people find it diffcult to honor rules except their own. I know the saying money makes the world turn around I disagree. Well if you're going to snip all of the context out then you can't possibly have a credible argument. You might as well go work for a newspaper. I think my argument stands. The context is in the threat (as you well know, because it's been written by you). I think you mean thread here? I didn't start the thread. But you can't ignore reality. Reality is that most people use IE. So if you ignore that fact, then you are not good at your job of designing websites, because it is a key factor. They don't make seats in busses 3' wide because some people are really fat. They make them so that the majority of people can fit comfortably in them (well, reasonably comfortably anyway). If you worry about every case, then you cheat the majority, and your product is less useful. Furthermore you don't seem to think highly of people working for newspapers. Personally I don't look down on people, no matter their work nor social status. My point is that newspapers are spinsters, as they often take a word or phrase out of context to make a story fit their agenda. It has nothing to do with the status of the people who work there, only their ethics and motivations, which are to make things appear the way they think will generate the most interest; not the truth. DT __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 02:15 am, Danial Thom wrote: --- Malcolm Kay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 09:27 am, Danial Thom wrote: Schwab Streetsmart Accounting Software (CA) Quicken Photoshop Adobe Acrobat (for creating PDFs) Those are the ones I use daily. Surely there are some half-assed alternatives for some of these, but if I have to use something inferior to use FreeBSD then thats a point against it. This is all a question of the applications you need. My game is full custom integrated circuit design and suitable CAD software is available, at a price, on most unix style systems including Solaris, HP-UX, various Linux distributions and FreeBSD. In this field it is the Windows half-assed alternatives that are distinctly inferior. No, its a point of applications that one would reasonably need to run a business. I can't run a business from your CAD workstation. I can't live without accounting software. I would hardly call apps such as Cadence half-assed, even if you prefer something else. In fact, Candence runs on Windows, Linux and Solaris but NOT FreeBSD, and its by far the most used product the market in that genre. Cadence have a wide range of products some of which run on Windows platforms. But you will be struggling to do much with Full Custom on XP. There are some alternatives offered on FreeBSD -- admittedly inferior to the top Cadence products but also at less than 10% of the licensing costs. I thought the discussion was about desktop software not business software; but even so if your business is IC design then I would think a good CAD suite was pretty essential. Malcolm Kay DT __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: BSD Question's.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Malcolm Kay Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 3:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: rod person; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Question's. Cadence have a wide range of products some of which run on Windows platforms. But you will be struggling to do much with Full Custom on XP. There are some alternatives offered on FreeBSD -- admittedly inferior to the top Cadence products but also at less than 10% of the licensing costs. I thought the discussion was about desktop software not business software; but even so if your business is IC design then I would think a good CAD suite was pretty essential. Frankly, Malcolm, I find it far more interesting to learn about the niche software that runs poorly on Windows and well on UNIX. Talking about programs like Acrobat that everyone uses is a pretty dull and worn out subject. We all know Acrobat works better on Windows, ho hum, can we please move on? As you so eloquently reminded us here, not every task done on a computer is done with the top 20 most popular programs in the world. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: BSD Question's.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andy Sjostrom Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 12:11 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: BSD Question's. To whom this may concern, H-E-L-P! [diatribe against Windows deleted] I have decided to start the search for a new OS. In my case the new OS must be completely 100 percent user friendly. Impossible. Is there any thing you can do to help me. Such as point me in the right direction. Yes, stay with Windows. Andy, here is the fundamental issue about operating system software. In a nutshell, the OS exists for 3 main tasks: 1) To provide a library of functions that an application developer can use to avoid having to reinvent the wheel when he is writing his applications. 2) To interface between raw computer hardware and the application programs, so that the application developer does not need to know how to program the 100+ soundcards out there for example. 3) To facilitate basic non-application tasks for the computer user, such as organizing files, connecting to the Internet, etc. Both the free OS's and the commercial OS's do item #1 well. But item's #2 and #3 are where the commercial operating systems like Windows are really advanced. Now, a user can get around #2 easily by simply swapping the hardware out, if the free OS of his choice does not play well with the hardware he has. But, # 3 is a big problem under any kind of UNIX because of a simple fact: UNIX allows you to solve a problem multiple different ways. It gives you a choice in how you want to solve a problem. Windows does not. Now, consider the process of buying a car. You go into Toyota and they have 3 kinds of cars. Cheap, medium, expensive. You just choose the one that fits your budget and drive away. You don't have to know anything about a car to do this. By contrast you go into a Chevy dealer and buy a car. You are given a list of 50 options that you can choose the car to have. The cost of the car is determined by what options you order. Well, now guess what, you actually have to know something about cars to buy one of those Chevys. It makes the process of buying a car a lot harder. Sure, you can get a Chevy tailored to exactly what you want - but you have to understand how to use the options you order, before you know if you want them or not. The Windows world is like a Toyota. You do things the way that Bill Gates has decided you need to do them. This makes it very easy to learn to use Windows because there is only 1 way to do something. Thus it is very user friendly, because anybody can just jump on and start using it. The Free OS world is like the Chevy. You really have to know a lot to get the value out of it. Once you do know a lot then you get a great deal of value from it, and you will not need the software to be user friendly But, getting to that point means a lot of work with what seems like little return. Windows has a low learning curve. It is easy to get to learn how to use it, but once you have learned the easy stuff and need to do more sophisticated stuff, you have to spend considerable time learning the intracies of an application. (like a spreadsheet) And none of that considerable knowledge is usable with any other application because all the apps do the sophisticated stuff differently. UNIX has a high learning curve. It is hard to learn how to use it, but once you have learned how to do the easy stuff in UNIX then you have to spend less and less time learning how to do the sophisticated stuff, because everything builds on each other, and all the apps take a similar approach in their intracies. Anyway, getting back to your situation. The stuff you have listed that you need to do with the computer is not sophisticated. So what will happen to you is you will start on that UNIX learning curve, get about 20% along, and realize that it would be easier to learn how to get Windows XP to work properly then do what you want to do, than to finish the UNIX learning curve. Consider that in your diatribe not once have you listed a problem with an APPLICATION. All your problems are with Windows. Yet, when you listed all the stuff you use the computer for, nothing in that list was operating system stuff If I could drop a version of Windows on your desk that ran perfectly, you would probably put all your apps on it like a shot and never look at a Free OS again. And to be perfectly honest about it, I -COULD- do such a thing, and so could a lot of other people. And, so could you if you spent the time learning how to run your Windows properly, from someone who knows, rather than just clicking away at things. Another way of saying this is your not running TO a system like FreeBSD, your running AWAY from a system like Windows. Nothing in the Free OS market is attracting you other than the possible thought you might not have as many problems with it, a thought which just shows you don't know
RE: BSD Question's.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Danial Thom Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 7:34 AM To: Michael C. Shultz; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Daniel A.; Andy Sjostrom Subject: Re: BSD Question's. --- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop, and that there is no perfect solution that works perfectly in every scenario? This ignores a very important fact: the needs of a home user for a desktop OS are rapidly becoming very different than the needs of a corporation for a desktop OS. Windows XP is the best desktop OS you can have on the $499.99 computers that they sell with the operating system preloaded down at Best Buy, and that are purchased by the typical home user. But it is a serious problem for the average corporation. Many of them are deploying Microsoft Terminal Server and using Winterms, or Linux systems running remote desktop, terminal served into the TS. In this manner they can provide the user with access to the apps that they are trained on, such as Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc. in a controlled fashion that does not permit the user to download the latest virus-of-the-month, or crap-up their system with the latest screen-saver from the Weather channel that tanks the Internet connection every 3 minutes downloading a 1MB jpg file of the weather in San Francisco. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: BSD Question's.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gerard Seibert Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 8:07 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Question's. I have to agree with that statement. I have witnessed all too many products start out with a good idea, build a solid product, and then waste time and resources on trying to be all things to all people. In the end they end up with a mediocre product. You mean like Windows? Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: BSD Question's.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of dick hoogendijk Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 5:54 AM To: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: BSD Question's. On 24 Dec Danial Thom wrote: Schwab Streetsmart Accounting Software (CA) Quicken Photoshop Adobe Acrobat (for creating PDFs) Those are the ones I use daily. Surely there are some half-assed alternatives for some of these, but if I have to use something inferior to use FreeBSD then thats a point against it. NO. It's not a point against the OS. It merely demonstrates why lots of people stay with windows. NOT because the OS is better, but its support by *third party soft-hardware* is better. Windows itself (the OS) is worse than FreeBSD (imho). Those 3th party people are responsable for the leading role of microsoft. Not MS itself. No, not really. It's circumstances that are responsible for the leading role of Microsoft. Remember, Windows still has DOS in it, and DOS is about 10 years older than FreeBSD. Microsoft got a big head start at the right time. I wouldn't worry about it, though. Truth is that the computer market has fundamentally changed. It's now a market that caters to the unwashed masses, and such markets naturally fall into either a monopoly, or a level of standardization that there's minor product differentiation between the leaders, so they may as well be a monopoly. Take the automobile market, fundamentally most passenger vehicles look and act the same, burn the same fuel, use the same tires/batteries/ etc. and cost the same. Same with the soft drink market, same with the cell phone market, etc. etc. In order for UNIX to become the dominant OS it would have to change to be almost exactly like Windows, and would certainly have to be completely compatible, able to run Windows binaries out of the box, etc. OS/2 was like this at one time, if you remember. You would end up with 2 similar operating systems, one made by Microsoft the other made by RedHat (or whoever) and essentially the same thing. If Digital Research had caught on early enough, we would have had DOS and DR-DOS pretty much equivalent markets. That would have ended up with equivalent Windows 3.1's and later Windows 95's. We really are better off with UNIX in the minority, that gives it a freedom to explore new ideas that Windows lacks. It's no surprise that most of the eye candy in Windows today was ripped off of various X window managers. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Sunday 25 December 2005 02:16 pm, dick hoogendijk wrote: On 24 Dec Kent Stewart wrote: There is also the problem that some sites are designed to work with Internet Explorer. You can try to visit with firefox but that doesn't always work even with firefox on XP. NO site should be designed to work with IExplorer. I know it's done, but it should not! Why do we have W3C? If we could all just do things by the book the internet would be a much nicer place to visit. People who design for IExplorer are bad! They have microsoft in mind and _not_ the visitors. I hate it when choice gets violated! It should be called a crime against freedom. I have seen some that don't work properly except with IE but the only sites I have encountered that demand IE are online banking. They seem to only understand how to let you login securely using IE. There are some sites such as Tyco that only work with Mozilla style browsers. It depends on the push techology built into Mozilla style browsers. You can see what the Navy Observatory time is but the automated gif only works with the mozilla products. See http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/what1.html Each browser has some technology that they depend on and you have to use that browser before you can use their services. The 80/20 rule probably applies because the banks can program for IE and get 85% of the people without trippling their web development costs. Kent imho: sites designed for 'iexplorer only' should be banned ;-) -- Kent Stewart Richland, WA Nunca te acostarás sin saber una cosa más http://users.owt.com/kstewart/index.html ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Monday, December 26, 2005 8:28:13 AM Kent Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: BSD Question's. Wrote these words of wisdom: On Sunday 25 December 2005 02:16 pm, dick hoogendijk wrote: On 24 Dec Kent Stewart wrote: There is also the problem that some sites are designed to work with Internet Explorer. You can try to visit with firefox but that doesn't always work even with firefox on XP. NO site should be designed to work with IExplorer. I know it's done, but it should not! Why do we have W3C? If we could all just do things by the book the internet would be a much nicer place to visit. People who design for IExplorer are bad! They have microsoft in mind and _not_ the visitors. I hate it when choice gets violated! It should be called a crime against freedom. I have seen some that don't work properly except with IE but the only sites I have encountered that demand IE are online banking. They seem to only understand how to let you login securely using IE. There are some sites such as Tyco that only work with Mozilla style browsers. It depends on the push techology built into Mozilla style browsers. You can see what the Navy Observatory time is but the automated gif only works with the mozilla products. See http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/what1.html Each browser has some technology that they depend on and you have to use that browser before you can use their services. The 80/20 rule probably applies because the banks can program for IE and get 85% of the people without trippling their web development costs. Kent imho: sites designed for 'iexplorer only' should be banned ;-) -- Kent Stewart Richland, WA * REPLY SEPARATOR * On 10/11/2005 5:29:42 PM, Gerard Replied: I belong to a HS Officials Association. The entire BOCES site, where I can confirm assignments, etc., is written in VB. I can only use IE to access that site. I have spoken to the director of BOCES operations, and they informed me that there was no way they were going to change the site. It cost them many $thousands$ of dollars to have set up. I do have to admit that it works flawlessly though. -- Gerard Seibert [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- dick hoogendijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24 Dec Kent Stewart wrote: There is also the problem that some sites are designed to work with Internet Explorer. You can try to visit with firefox but that doesn't always work even with firefox on XP. NO site should be designed to work with IExplorer. I know it's done, but it should not! Why do we have W3C? If we could all just do things by the book the internet would be a much nicer place to visit. People who design for IExplorer are bad! They have microsoft in mind and _not_ the visitors. I hate it when choice gets violated! It should be called a crime against freedom. No, you're wrong here. You're letting your religious philosophy cloud your business sense. You develop to service the highest percentage of your expected viewer base. The truth is that the vast majority of visitors to most web sites are going to be using IE. While using unnecessary features as a primary component of your site that ONLY work with IE is foolish, you can't compromise your design just so that it will work with the 3% of religious fanatics that refuse to install IE on thier machines. Business is about numbers, and the numbers say that your site HAS to work with IE, and its nice if it works with others. I generally test with IE, Firefox and Netscape and I don't care much about much else. I have a friend in the travel biz who gets an unusual amount of traffic from AOL, because most of his customers are not computer people. His site needs to be well tested on AOL, where I couldn't really give a rat's behind if my commercial site works with AOL or not. You have to make sure your site works with the greatest majority of browsers available that will be accessing any given site. Its unfortunate that MS does what they want rather than following the standards, but in reality the standards should follow MS, because its really the only way to make everything work. Much of Microsoft's extra stuff is pretty useful and arguably better; its time the unix geeks get over it and stop whining about the big bad bully for the good of the big picture. MS isn't going away anytime soon. The truth is that anything MS does is a de-facto standard, whether you like it or not. DT __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: BSD Question's.
--- Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Danial Thom Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 7:34 AM To: Michael C. Shultz; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Daniel A.; Andy Sjostrom Subject: Re: BSD Question's. --- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop, and that there is no perfect solution that works perfectly in every scenario? This ignores a very important fact: the needs of a home user for a desktop OS are rapidly becoming very different than the needs of a corporation for a desktop OS. Windows XP is the best desktop OS you can have on the $499.99 computers that they sell with the operating system preloaded down at Best Buy, and that are purchased by the typical home user. But it is a serious problem for the average corporation. Many of them are deploying Microsoft Terminal Server and using Winterms, or Linux systems running remote desktop, terminal served into the TS. In this manner they can provide the user with access to the apps that they are trained on, such as Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc. in a controlled fashion that does not permit the user to download the latest virus-of-the-month, or crap-up their system with the latest screen-saver from the Weather channel that tanks the Internet connection every 3 minutes downloading a 1MB jpg file of the weather in San Francisco. This thinking is more about the lack of innovation of consultants and network staff than necessity. There are simple filters and bandwidth management that can manage networks at the egress without having to adulterate your network with a lot of crap like this. What you do on the intranet and how you interact outside of your local network are mutually exclusive components. With laptops being so prevalent now; the ability to allow users to pop a standard machine onto a corporate network is absolutely ESSENTIAL for maximum productivity. The ability to transparently protect your users without having to deploy different equipment than standard XP-type desktops is what separates the men from the boys. Something important to understand is that what corporations do is a function of the talent that they have making recommendations. Its not necessarily the right thing; in fact is almost never is. What's ironic is that corporations hire cheaper consultants who end up making them spend much more in the long run because of their lack of innovation. DT __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Monday 26 December 2005 07:24 am, Danial Thom wrote: --- dick hoogendijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24 Dec Kent Stewart wrote: There is also the problem that some sites are designed to work with Internet Explorer. You can try to visit with firefox but that doesn't always work even with firefox on XP. NO site should be designed to work with IExplorer. I know it's done, but it should not! Why do we have W3C? If we could all just do things by the book the internet would be a much nicer place to visit. People who design for IExplorer are bad! They have microsoft in mind and _not_ the visitors. I hate it when choice gets violated! It should be called a crime against freedom. No, you're wrong here. You're letting your religious philosophy cloud your business sense. You develop to service the highest percentage of your expected viewer base. The truth is that the vast majority of visitors to most web sites are going to be using IE. While using unnecessary features as a primary component of your site that ONLY work with IE is foolish, you can't compromise your design just so that it will work with the 3% of religious fanatics that refuse to install IE on thier machines. Business is about numbers, and the numbers say that your site HAS to work with IE, and its nice if it works with others. I generally test with IE, Firefox and Netscape and I don't care much about much else. I have a friend in the travel biz who gets an unusual amount of traffic from AOL, because most of his customers are not computer people. His site needs to be well tested on AOL, where I couldn't really give a rat's behind if my commercial site works with AOL or not. You have to make sure your site works with the greatest majority of browsers available that will be accessing any given site. Its unfortunate that MS does what they want rather than following the standards, but in reality the standards should follow MS, because its really the only way to make everything work. Much of Microsoft's extra stuff is pretty useful and arguably better; its time the unix geeks get over it and stop whining about the big bad bully for the good of the big picture. MS isn't going away anytime soon. The truth is that anything MS does is a de-facto standard, whether you like it or not. DT I guess we should just throw out w3c and assign the task to microsoft. While wer'e at it lets get rid of all net standards. After all microsoft is so far ahead we'll never catch up. Beech -- --- Beech Rintoul - System Administrator - [EMAIL PROTECTED] /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | NorthWind Communications \ / - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail | 201 East 9th Avenue Ste.310 X - NO Word docs in e-mail | Anchorage, AK 99501 / \ - Please visit Alaska Paradise - http://akparadise.byethost33.com --- pgpAEM7Zer9up.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: BSD Question's.
--- Beech Rintoul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 26 December 2005 07:24 am, Danial Thom wrote: --- dick hoogendijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24 Dec Kent Stewart wrote: There is also the problem that some sites are designed to work with Internet Explorer. You can try to visit with firefox but that doesn't always work even with firefox on XP. NO site should be designed to work with IExplorer. I know it's done, but it should not! Why do we have W3C? If we could all just do things by the book the internet would be a much nicer place to visit. People who design for IExplorer are bad! They have microsoft in mind and _not_ the visitors. I hate it when choice gets violated! It should be called a crime against freedom. No, you're wrong here. You're letting your religious philosophy cloud your business sense. You develop to service the highest percentage of your expected viewer base. The truth is that the vast majority of visitors to most web sites are going to be using IE. While using unnecessary features as a primary component of your site that ONLY work with IE is foolish, you can't compromise your design just so that it will work with the 3% of religious fanatics that refuse to install IE on thier machines. Business is about numbers, and the numbers say that your site HAS to work with IE, and its nice if it works with others. I generally test with IE, Firefox and Netscape and I don't care much about much else. I have a friend in the travel biz who gets an unusual amount of traffic from AOL, because most of his customers are not computer people. His site needs to be well tested on AOL, where I couldn't really give a rat's behind if my commercial site works with AOL or not. You have to make sure your site works with the greatest majority of browsers available that will be accessing any given site. Its unfortunate that MS does what they want rather than following the standards, but in reality the standards should follow MS, because its really the only way to make everything work. Much of Microsoft's extra stuff is pretty useful and arguably better; its time the unix geeks get over it and stop whining about the big bad bully for the good of the big picture. MS isn't going away anytime soon. The truth is that anything MS does is a de-facto standard, whether you like it or not. DT I guess we should just throw out w3c and assign the task to microsoft. While wer'e at it lets get rid of all net standards. After all microsoft is so far ahead we'll never catch up. Beech Cisco makes their own standards for networking, and if you want to play in the game you have to be compatible. It doesn't really matter what the accepted standard is; its the one that *most* people are using. A guy I used to work with used to say at least once a day The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. You can choose to be a hard-ass or you can do what works. I like to do what works, because thats the best way to be successful. DT __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: BSD Question's.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kent Stewart Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 5:28 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Question's. Each browser has some technology that they depend on and you have to use that browser before you can use their services. The 80/20 rule probably applies because the banks can program for IE and get 85% of the people without trippling their web development costs. No, it is because banks historically are taken advantage of by IT providers. And why not - nobody likes them, if you were lucky enough to get a bank contract you would do it too. It's kind of like doing work for the IRS. Banks always get way overcharged and get the most inapplicable and expensive technology possible. The web dev. houses that get bank contracts overcharge mightily, and put their neophyte designers on the jobs. They have to, by the time the bank pays them it has cost more in legwork to get the money than the job is worth, most times. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: BSD Question's.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gerard Seibert Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 5:38 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Question's. I belong to a HS Officials Association. The entire BOCES site, where I can confirm assignments, etc., is written in VB. I can only use IE to access that site. I have spoken to the director of BOCES operations, and they informed me that there was no way they were going to change the site. It cost them many $thousands$ of dollars to have set up. The last permanent web developer we had on staff wrote lots of sites like this in VB, he never had any trouble in getting them to come up in all browsers. There is no inherent property in VB that when you use it to build a site that it will require IE. The issue is the web developer that put the BOCES site together might have been a good progrmamer but didn't know much about web development. In short, the BOCES opereation got taken, the director probably knows by now that he screwed up when he wrote the contract with the web dev firm, but he's not going to admit it to you. I do have to admit that it works flawlessly though. For now. The problem is that when the next version of IE comes out the onus is on Microsoft to make it compliant with standards first, and make it work with the previous IE versions idiosyncracies later. Without requiring the web developer to deliver a site that's compliant to the published standards, what your going to get is a site that only works with one specific version of IE, and no guarentees it will continue to work with future versions. Eventually it will break, by then you could put a bug in the directors ear that he might write in html standards compliance in the contract he will have to write then to get the site fixed. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: BSD Question's.
-Original Message- From: Danial Thom [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 9:00 AM To: Ted Mittelstaedt; Michael C. Shultz; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Daniel A.; Andy Sjostrom Subject: RE: BSD Question's. --- Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Danial Thom Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 7:34 AM To: Michael C. Shultz; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Daniel A.; Andy Sjostrom Subject: Re: BSD Question's. --- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop, and that there is no perfect solution that works perfectly in every scenario? This ignores a very important fact: the needs of a home user for a desktop OS are rapidly becoming very different than the needs of a corporation for a desktop OS. Windows XP is the best desktop OS you can have on the $499.99 computers that they sell with the operating system preloaded down at Best Buy, and that are purchased by the typical home user. But it is a serious problem for the average corporation. Many of them are deploying Microsoft Terminal Server and using Winterms, or Linux systems running remote desktop, terminal served into the TS. In this manner they can provide the user with access to the apps that they are trained on, such as Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc. in a controlled fashion that does not permit the user to download the latest virus-of-the-month, or crap-up their system with the latest screen-saver from the Weather channel that tanks the Internet connection every 3 minutes downloading a 1MB jpg file of the weather in San Francisco. This thinking is more about the lack of innovation of consultants and network staff than necessity. There are simple filters and bandwidth management that can manage networks at the egress without having to adulterate your network with a lot of crap like this. What you do on the intranet and how you interact outside of your local network are mutually exclusive components. It depends on the business. If your running a call center in Punjab, India you can pretty well lock down access to the Internet because your employees are supposed to be answering the telephone, not surfing Ebay. But if your running a modern office then it is a lot harder for businesses to deny access to the Internet, websurfing, etcetera, espically when the person demaning access happens to be, for example, the Director of Marketing who's pulling down 6 figures and is ordering you to permit unfettered Internet access to himself, and all his employees that work under him. And he's one of the CEO's golfing buddies to boot. The other issue is suppose the corporation decided a while back to outsource every last man-dog IT person they had. Now they are paying some outsourcing firm to manage their desktops. That firm charges quadruple if they have to send a warm body to a desktop to fix something vs if they can fix it remotely. If everyone is terminal served in, then the outsourcing firm can have a guy in Punjab, India, remote into the terminal server and fix it. I'm not saying that terminal server is a solution for all offices, or even a good solution for any of them. But, there are very different issues that become important for a corporation supporting a lot of Windows desktops, that aren't an issue for a single Windows
Re: BSD Question's.
On 24 Dec Danial Thom wrote: Schwab Streetsmart Accounting Software (CA) Quicken Photoshop Adobe Acrobat (for creating PDFs) Those are the ones I use daily. Surely there are some half-assed alternatives for some of these, but if I have to use something inferior to use FreeBSD then thats a point against it. NO. It's not a point against the OS. It merely demonstrates why lots of people stay with windows. NOT because the OS is better, but its support by *third party soft-hardware* is better. Windows itself (the OS) is worse than FreeBSD (imho). Those 3th party people are responsable for the leading role of microsoft. Not MS itself. I'm convinced (though not proven yet) that the software you mentioned above will run on FreeBSD (if ported natively to the OS) at least as good, but I guess even better, then it does on windows. -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 6.0 +++ The Power to Serve ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- dick hoogendijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24 Dec Danial Thom wrote: Schwab Streetsmart Accounting Software (CA) Quicken Photoshop Adobe Acrobat (for creating PDFs) Those are the ones I use daily. Surely there are some half-assed alternatives for some of these, but if I have to use something inferior to use FreeBSD then thats a point against it. NO. It's not a point against the OS. It merely demonstrates why lots of people stay with windows. NOT because the OS is better, but its support by *third party soft-hardware* is better. Windows itself (the OS) is worse than FreeBSD (imho). Those 3th party people are responsable for the leading role of microsoft. Not MS itself. I'm convinced (though not proven yet) that the software you mentioned above will run on FreeBSD (if ported natively to the OS) at least as good, but I guess even better, then it does on windows. worse and more useful are different criteria. A harley davidson may be a better built machine than any given SUV, but its not as practical or useful. Its usefulness is limited to enthusiasts and those with disdain for society, much like the un*x desktop. __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2005-12-24 14:01, Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don Hinton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For me, FreeBSD is about twice as fast/easy to install/configure, and infinitely cheaper. Considering that WinXP usually comes on the computer, I don't see how installing and configuring FreeBSD can be easier than having to do nothing at all? Windows XP comes preinstalled, yes. Not preconfigured too. It so happens that configuring a Windows XP system to match one's preferences has the potential to: a) Screw the machine up so completely and utterly that a reinstall is required. b) Take a lot of time. A huge lot of time, because of all the different 'driver' installation processes. Ate you claiming that someone not familiar with how to configure FreeBSD can't screw it up beyond usefulness? I can point you at about 10% of my customers who've spent weeks just trying to compile a kernel and get basic networking working, much less a desktop with X. DT __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
Hi Daniel I have not forgotten Ubuntu. I did try it last spring in a vain attempt and on the advisement of my computer tech and slackware guru (in my eye's only of cousre) to find a better OS. My tech keeps tring to push me toward the slackware. and he doesn't understand that many of my clients are windows user's and they have voice and cams. several of them have made it clear that if I did not have the cam and voice they would have gone to someone else that did. While I'm sure that Ubuntu is an excelent program and I will give it another look. at the present time I'm leaning more toward the ALinux OS. Like the PC BSD it looks like a great program. everything I have been told and read about it make is sound alot like window. which for me at the present time is a good thing. The only reason I'm leaning more toward the Alinux is becauseof the voice and cam opitions with the chat program. If the PC BSD had that option I would be looking more closely at the PC BSD. The PC BSD is a excellent looking program. and Ilove what they did with the screen shots. That in it self was very impressive. For me though it will not workout as it does not have the voice or cam opitions that I require for my needs. The only down side I have seen of the ALinux is that they are asking for either a donation or a straight up front price tag of $39.95. Don't get me wrong here compared to what the knit wit that owns Microsoft is charging for XP thats nothing to worry about. and I'm more then willing to pay the price for the program. (Besides I know that man does not live my kilabytes alone.) and freebies don't put food on the table or pay the bills. I am going to try all three OS to decide which OS I like and then file my findings in my yahoo 360 blog. Have a merry christmas and a very happy new year. --- Daniel A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do not forget Ubuntu Linux. I am hearing good about it from a lot of people, so you should try to run the LiveCD and see if you like it. On 12/25/05, Andy Sjostrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People please, I did not come in search of a debate as to which OS was better. I came in Search of a newer or if you will, another choice in an OS. Two OS's which have been pointed out to me and look very promising are. 1. PC BSD 2. ALinux Both offer a lot, and I know as many people do that there is on one single OS that offers the perfect solution for everything. However I also know now something I did not know 24 hours ago. and that was that there are a wide range of choices that are availible and contrey to popular belief not all BSD and linux OS's are created the same. I also know now that William Gate is single individual who believes that the word team has an I in it some place. Something that BSD Linux knows does not exsist. After what William Gates and his Windows have put me through over the last three years. You can be sure that which ever OS choose will be desined by a TEAM and not by some knit wit that works for team Gates. Now can someone put me in touch with The Insane clown Posie. I have a project in mind...LOL! Merry christmas to all and thank you for your help. . DA Consultants George A. Sjostrom II Helping those who can help them selves http://www.geocities.com/andy_sjostrom/index.html __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . DA Consultants George A. Sjostrom II Helping those who can help them selves http://www.geocities.com/andy_sjostrom/index.html __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On 2005-12-25 06:33, Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2005-12-24 14:01, Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don Hinton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For me, FreeBSD is about twice as fast - easy to install - configure, and infinitely cheaper. Considering that WinXP usually comes on the computer, I don't see how installing and configuring FreeBSD can be easier than having to do nothing at all? Windows XP comes preinstalled, yes. Not preconfigured too. It so happens that configuring a Windows XP system to match one's preferences has the potential to: a) Screw the machine up so completely and utterly that a reinstall is required. b) Take a lot of time. A huge lot of time, because of all the different 'driver' installation processes. Ate you claiming that someone not familiar with how to configure FreeBSD can't screw it up beyond usefulness? No, I'm claiming that your Holy Grail of an OS is also flawed, in many of the ways that FreeBSD may be, in your opinion, flawed too. Since the original poster has explicitly stated that he is *NOT* interested in hearing why you think Windows is good for him, can we drop the subject already? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On 24 Dec Kent Stewart wrote: There is also the problem that some sites are designed to work with Internet Explorer. You can try to visit with firefox but that doesn't always work even with firefox on XP. NO site should be designed to work with IExplorer. I know it's done, but it should not! Why do we have W3C? If we could all just do things by the book the internet would be a much nicer place to visit. People who design for IExplorer are bad! They have microsoft in mind and _not_ the visitors. I hate it when choice gets violated! It should be called a crime against freedom. imho: sites designed for 'iexplorer only' should be banned ;-) -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 6.0 +++ The Power to Serve ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 08:10, Andy Sjostrom wrote: To whom this may concern, H-E-L-P! LOL! I've been online since 1992( the windows 3.1 days for me.) I'm 48 yrs.old. and also a windows XP user. Because of recent issue I have had with Mr. William Gates and his product. about every 6 months I have had to overhaul my windows XP. during the last up grade I was told that my XP product code was invaild, then when is made the repair up grades something in my registory changed, and when that auto updater downloaded the new security patches it somehow downloaded 2969 trojans as well. I have decided to start the search for a new OS. In my case the new OS must be completely 100 percent user friendly. Please bare in mind that 100 percent means NO CODE writting. I'm not a programer...LOL! I run a very small one man company at, http://www.geocities.com/andy_sjostrom/index.html From time to time I also like to rip and burn a CD as well, Publish articles to my yahoo 360 blog. edit a few images from time to to time. surf the net, copy and paste, chat with friends in my favorite yahoo chat room. fold protiens for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] project at stanford U. (I'm on team #40154.) I also have a logitech Clicksmart420 that the new OS must be willing to accept. I've been doing some reading and every thing I have been able to find for OS's boils down to three basic choices. BSD Unix Linux A windows Hybird like ReactOS. There is one other very important thing Because I'm on a fixed income and things with me are very tight money wise the new OS must be free. Is there any thing you can do to help me. Such as point me in the right direction. . DA Consultants George A. Sjostrom II Helping those who can help them selves http://www.geocities.com/andy_sjostrom/index.html Andy, Welcome. I understand your position, and if you will accept some thoughts from someone older than you by 10 years. Very few of the alternatives to Windows have the ability to run on any platform and it is likely that you will run into compatibility problems so you will need to be more aware of the hardware you are using including editing scripts etc. You are probably more used to doing things via a GUI. Whilst BSD does run either gnome or KDE etc, you will still need to do a fair amount via the command line even if it is just to get the GUI working. There is one tip here - read the handbook. The Linux Distributions are in general more suited to running a GUI and some install one as the default. I have not used any of the other versions of BSD (Net and Open) but FreeBSD is more suited to server applications although that is changing and it will run as a desktop machine. I would suggest that you try some to the Linux distributions - you can get or download live CD's which will run without being installed so you can try them before committing to an installation. ISTR that there is a FreeBSD live CD available. You can find out more about the various distributions at: http://distrowatch.com/ BTW, I used to say I'm no programmer but . Let me know if you have any questions. Rob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). On 12/24/05, Andy Sjostrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To whom this may concern, H-E-L-P! LOL! I've been online since 1992( the windows 3.1 days for me.) I'm 48 yrs.old. and also a windows XP user. Because of recent issue I have had with Mr. William Gates and his product. about every 6 months I have had to overhaul my windows XP. during the last up grade I was told that my XP product code was invaild, then when is made the repair up grades something in my registory changed, and when that auto updater downloaded the new security patches it somehow downloaded 2969 trojans as well. I have decided to start the search for a new OS. In my case the new OS must be completely 100 percent user friendly. Please bare in mind that 100 percent means NO CODE writting. I'm not a programer...LOL! I run a very small one man company at, http://www.geocities.com/andy_sjostrom/index.html From time to time I also like to rip and burn a CD as well, Publish articles to my yahoo 360 blog. edit a few images from time to to time. surf the net, copy and paste, chat with friends in my favorite yahoo chat room. fold protiens for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] project at stanford U. (I'm on team #40154.) I also have a logitech Clicksmart420 that the new OS must be willing to accept. I've been doing some reading and every thing I have been able to find for OS's boils down to three basic choices. BSD Unix Linux A windows Hybird like ReactOS. There is one other very important thing Because I'm on a fixed income and things with me are very tight money wise the new OS must be free. Is there any thing you can do to help me. Such as point me in the right direction. . DA Consultants George A. Sjostrom II Helping those who can help them selves http://www.geocities.com/andy_sjostrom/index.html __ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop, and that there is no perfect solution that works perfectly in every scenario? FreeBSD and Linux *should* focus on server functions, because that is where MS is weak and that is where its needed. There will likely never be a solid reason to use BSD or linux as a desktop other than religion; while there are many compelling reasons to use BSD and/or linux servers. When you try to be everything to everyone and you don't have the resources of a MS, then you end up with mediocre results. Decide what you want to be, and be the best at it. That should be the mantra of any product development team, regardless of the genre. DT __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 07:19 -0800, Michael C. Shultz wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have used FreeBSD as my desktop since 2.1.5, and have been very satisfied with it. Now that KDE has matured, it is an excellent choice for a desktop environment, and runs just as well on FreeBSD as Linux. (I am not a GNOME fan, personally). I have tried several different Linux distributions, and my current favourite is Suse 10.0, given a copy on a DVD to avoid shuffling CDs in and out of the drive. They have done a great job - but I still come back to FreeBSD for all serious work. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
Michael C. Shultz wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike I use FreeBSD as a desktop system, once it's setup it's a much nicer system to maintain than any Linux I've tried (haven't tried Gentoo yet). Setting it up is harder than some of the auto-config-everything Linux distros though. My suggestion is to read through the handbook to see if you are comfortible with what it is describing. If it seems okay, give FreeBSD a try, if not, try a Linux distro. Handbook: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html HTH, Micah ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Saturday 24 December 2005 07:34, Danial Thom wrote: --- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop, and that there is no perfect solution that works perfectly in every scenario? What I suppose you really mean is why don't I just agree with you ;) FreeBSD and Linux *should* focus on server functions, because that is where MS is weak and that is where its needed. There will likely never be a solid reason to use BSD or linux as a desktop other than religion; while there are many compelling reasons to use BSD and/or linux servers. Your opinion. Mine is FreeBSD has the potential to be a better desktop than either ms or Linux. The big problem at the moment is with web browser plugins. Desktop users coming from ms land demand these and FreeBSD simply comes up short in supporting them. I have faith that will change eventually. When you try to be everything to everyone and you don't have the resources of a MS, then you end up with mediocre results. This is the key, how to get the FreeBSD teams resources for focusing developent towards desktop users? I believe if given proper resources they will do it. -Mike Decide what you want to be, and be the best at it. That should be the mantra of any product development team, regardless of the genre. DT __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Saturday, December 24, 2005 10:34:12 AM
Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: BSD Question's.
Wrote these words of wisdom:
When you try to be everything to everyone and you
don't have the resources of a MS, then you end up
with mediocre results. Decide what you want to
be, and be the best at it. That should be the
mantra of any product development team,
regardless of the genre.
* REPLY SEPARATOR *
On 10/11/2005 5:29:42 PM, Gerard Replied:
I have to agree with that statement. I have witnessed all too many
products start out with a good idea, build a solid product, and then
waste time and resources on trying to be all things to all people. In
the end they end up with a mediocre product.
--
Gerard Seibert
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: BSD Question's.
On Saturday 24 December 2005 08:02, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Mike, On 12/24/05, Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice This is the same kind of response I got when I asked for screen alternatives. My grind is against Linux. Honestly, I hate linux. I dont have any real reasons for hating it, I just do, because Linux has a very loud-mouthed userbase that hates M$ and Winblows. I ordered 200 (Yes, 200!) Ubuntu CD's just for the priceless joy of sitting in my room and laughing once I opened the box with the 200 CD's that cost some people real money. Also, I am absolutely a FreeBSD fanboy. Imagine the priceless joy you could have had by donating the cost of those 200 cd's to the authors of your favorite OS. Not to mention the extra space in your room without 200 CD's laying about. -Mike So the advice I was giving actually _was_ the kind of advice that the OP asked for. Disregard the fact that this is a freebsd mailing list. He was asking for advice on a dekstop OS that would be cheap, and that is exactly what I gave him, based on the information that I've gathered through my interaction with people. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 07:34 -0800, Danial Thom wrote: --- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop Well, that's your opinion. For me, FreeBSD is a much better desktop than Windows -- it runs solid and fast and enables me to be more productive in my work. Of course, what is good for me might not be so good for someone else, I guess it depends on your needs. Some Linux distros are much easier to setup than FreeBSD, so they might be a more recommendable desktop for someone with less technical knowledge. -- Miguel Saturnino [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- Miguel Saturnino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 07:34 -0800, Danial Thom wrote: --- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop Well, that's your opinion. For me, FreeBSD is a much better desktop than Windows -- it runs solid and fast and enables me to be more productive in my work. Of course, what is good for me might not be so good for someone else, I guess it depends on your needs. more productive in what way? Without considering all of the programs I use that only run in windows (such as my investment analysis tools, camera interface and photo editing programs), outline the productivity advantages of FreeBSD in terms of: 1) Time from unwrapping the computer to having a functional and usable system. 2) General productivity advantages in a typical day. ie: what can you do with FreeBSD that you can't do in WinXP, and what is faster or more productive in FreeBSD And please don't take this as an adversarial post: I haven't looked at the desktop in a while so I'd really like to know the answers, if in fact your opinion is objective. DT __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
Daniel A. wrote: One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Seconded. I put Ubuntu on my laptop after FreeBSD 5 wouldn't behave. It's Debian-based, so it's technically sensible, and Ubuntu work VERY hard to have stuff Just Work. I routinely recommend it to people who want to try something else because they're bloody sick of Windows sucking. I also recommend anyone working on the FreeBSD ports/packages system to try Ubuntu and the Synaptic Package Manager (a nice graphical frontend to apt). It's RIDICULOUSLY easy to use and there's little excuse for doing any less well. - d. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 07:34, Danial Thom wrote: --- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop, and that there is no perfect solution that works perfectly in every scenario? What I suppose you really mean is why don't I just agree with you ;) FreeBSD and Linux *should* focus on server functions, because that is where MS is weak and that is where its needed. There will likely never be a solid reason to use BSD or linux as a desktop other than religion; while there are many compelling reasons to use BSD and/or linux servers. Your opinion. Mine is FreeBSD has the potential to be a better desktop than either ms or Linux. The big problem at the moment is with web browser plugins. Desktop users coming from ms land demand these and FreeBSD simply comes up short in supporting them. I have faith that will change eventually. You're pretty much admitting here that FreeBSD desktop is not as functional as windows. Which was exactly the point I was making. FreeBSD has the potential to be a very good MP OS. Currently it is not, so I don't use it. I need to run a business. Potential only means that I monitor its progress; I use what is the best available at the time for any given function. The reality is that there are a lot more things available for WinXP than FreeBSD. This to me defines productivity. I don't know what I'll need next month. If something new becomes available that I want to use, its much more likely to run in WinXP than FreeBSD. So even if they were equal at the moment, I have to choose windows. Motherboards are tested on Windows, not FreeBSD. With FreeBSD I never know when I buy a new MB if everything will work properly. With WinXP I know it will. Being able to chose a system based on what hardware I need, rather than what hardware will work with FreeBSD, is a big productivity advantage IMO. DT __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
Hi Danial: On Saturday 24 December 2005 10:44, Danial Thom wrote: --- Miguel Saturnino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 07:34 -0800, Danial Thom wrote: --- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop Well, that's your opinion. For me, FreeBSD is a much better desktop than Windows -- it runs solid and fast and enables me to be more productive in my work. Of course, what is good for me might not be so good for someone else, I guess it depends on your needs. more productive in what way? Without considering all of the programs I use that only run in windows (such as my investment analysis tools, camera interface and photo editing programs), outline the productivity advantages of FreeBSD in terms of: 1) Time from unwrapping the computer to having a functional and usable system. For me, FreeBSD is about twice as fast/easy to install/configure, and infinitely cheaper. 2) General productivity advantages in a typical day. ie: what can you do with FreeBSD that you can't do in WinXP, and what is faster or more productive in FreeBSD Depends on what you use it for. I'm a C++ developer, and have a need to examine/search/manipulate text files quite often, Windows, out of the box, is inappropriate for this type of work. I'd have to install all sorts of applications, e.g., cygwin, et al, to get the applications/capabilities that come out of the box on a typical *nix system, FreeBSD, Linux, etc... If, on the other hand, you are wedded to an application that only runs on windows, then the question is moot. Unfortunately, there is one windows program I'm forced to use, so I have a cheap laptop that sits on my desk for that purpose. Though I never use it directly, except to reboot it when it hangs, say once a week, I access it via rdesktop in a window from one of my FreeBSD systems, typically my new HP laptop. But no one can convince you of which OS you should use. If you want to try one, try it. If not, don't. I couldn't care less which OS other people use, just as I couldn't care less which car you drive. happy holidays--I'm off to finish my shopping... don And please don't take this as an adversarial post: I haven't looked at the desktop in a while so I'd really like to know the answers, if in fact your opinion is objective. DT __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Don Hinton don.hinton at vanderbilt.edu615.480.5667 ISIS, Vanderbilt University pgpCN2StR619C.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: BSD Question's.
It is not clear to me who said this; whoever did gets my vote for cheapest trick of the year. This is the same kind of response I got when I asked for screen alternatives. My grind is against Linux. Honestly, I hate linux. I dont have any real reasons for hating it, I just do, because Linux has a very loud-mouthed userbase that hates M$ and Winblows. I ordered 200 (Yes, 200!) Ubuntu CD's just for the priceless joy of sitting in my room and laughing once I opened the box with the 200 CD's that cost some people real money. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's
One good alternative that no one has mentioned is PC-BSD. It is FreeBSD that makes it very easy to set up a KDE desktop and install software. It works very well indeed. Yes, it has issues with some of the plugins at the moment (like FreeBSD) and java still has to be compiled. But the installation is painless, and overall it is nicely done. It is well worth considering. www.pcbsd.org. Frank ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- Don Hinton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Danial: On Saturday 24 December 2005 10:44, Danial Thom wrote: --- Miguel Saturnino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 07:34 -0800, Danial Thom wrote: --- Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 06:54, Daniel A. wrote: Hi Andy, I am sorry for the trouble you have had with Windows XP. I suggest that you use Linux, as FreeBSD really is not targeted at people who want to use graphical user interfaces. In a few key areas FreeBSD is a better desktop OS than Linux: Easier to keep the kernel/world and installed ports up to date for example without having to resort to the microsoft/Linux fixall method of removing and reinstalling everything every now and again. Your opinion is correct IMO that FreeBSD managers put most emphasis on FreeBSD as a server and little as a desktop. My guess is because donations(cash) and hardware support for developers come from people who want servers while people who want a desktop OS tend to donate squat The linux developers really have been trying to make a valuable replacement for Windows, as they somehow have experienced the same issues with Windows (And Microsoft products in general) that you have. One Linux distribution in particular that I think you might like, is Ubuntu. You can download it at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/, or order a CD (Free shipping, free CD, you pay nothing). Advertising Linux in a FreeBSD mailing list? Sounds like you may have more of axe to grind against the FreeBSD management folk than a desire to offer sound advice -Mike Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop Well, that's your opinion. For me, FreeBSD is a much better desktop than Windows -- it runs solid and fast and enables me to be more productive in my work. Of course, what is good for me might not be so good for someone else, I guess it depends on your needs. more productive in what way? Without considering all of the programs I use that only run in windows (such as my investment analysis tools, camera interface and photo editing programs), outline the productivity advantages of FreeBSD in terms of: 1) Time from unwrapping the computer to having a functional and usable system. For me, FreeBSD is about twice as fast/easy to install/configure, and infinitely cheaper. Considering that WinXP usually comes on the computer, I don't see how installing and configuring FreeBSD can be easier than having to do nothing at all? 2) General productivity advantages in a typical day. ie: what can you do with FreeBSD that you can't do in WinXP, and what is faster or more productive in FreeBSD Depends on what you use it for. I'm a C++ developer, and have a need to examine/search/manipulate text files quite often, Windows, out of the box, is inappropriate for this type of work. I'd have to install all sorts of applications, e.g., cygwin, et al, to get the applications/capabilities that come out of the box on a typical *nix system, FreeBSD, Linux, etc... I'm a developer also, but I don't use the FreeBSD desktop for this, I log into my freeBSD server with my desktop browser or telnet/ssh. I don't see how such things are relevent to using one desktop over the other. If, on the other hand, you are wedded to an application that only runs on windows, then the question is moot. Unfortunately, there is one windows program I'm forced to use, so I have a cheap laptop that sits on my desk for that purpose. Though I never use it directly, except to reboot it when it hangs, say once a week, I access it via rdesktop in a window from one of my FreeBSD systems, typically my new HP laptop. Being weded to an application and needing to do practical things are separate matters to me. With Windows i have choices of which apps I like better. With Freebsd, I usually have 1 choice or maybe no choices. But no one can convince you of which OS you should use. If you want to try one, try it. If not, don't. I couldn't care less which OS other people use, just as I couldn't care less which car you drive. I don't expect you to care, but saying you prefer FreeBSD and saying FreeBSD is better are different animals. I just wanted to know what you could do with FreeBSD that you can't do with Windows. I already know what I can do with Windows that I can't do with FreeBSD. DT
Re: BSD Question's.
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:01:53 -0800 (PST) Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't expect you to care, but saying you prefer FreeBSD and saying FreeBSD is better are different animals. I just wanted to know what you could do with FreeBSD that you can't do with Windows. I already know what I can do with Windows that I can't do with FreeBSD. I didn't see the first few emails in this thread so excuse me if you have answered this, but what can you do on Windows that you can't do on FreeBSD. Other than play the latest and greatest games. I'm just wondering. -- Rod http://www.opensourcebeef.net ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
--- rod person [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:01:53 -0800 (PST) Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't expect you to care, but saying you prefer FreeBSD and saying FreeBSD is better are different animals. I just wanted to know what you could do with FreeBSD that you can't do with Windows. I already know what I can do with Windows that I can't do with FreeBSD. I didn't see the first few emails in this thread so excuse me if you have answered this, but what can you do on Windows that you can't do on FreeBSD. Other than play the latest and greatest games. I'm just wondering. Schwab Streetsmart Accounting Software (CA) Quicken Photoshop Adobe Acrobat (for creating PDFs) Those are the ones I use daily. Surely there are some half-assed alternatives for some of these, but if I have to use something inferior to use FreeBSD then thats a point against it. Also, what you missed, was that I mentioned that you can be relatively sure that any hardware will have drivers for windows, while with FreeBSD you're never quite sure. Its also nice when you get a new printer or scanner to not have a 3 day project to get it to work. The only point I made was that FreeBSD is focused on server functions and that is justified by the simple fact that it will never be as useful as windows; if for no other reason than there simply aren't the resources for FreeBSD to be a good server and also a competitive desktop. DT __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Saturday 24 December 2005 02:24 pm, rod person wrote: On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:01:53 -0800 (PST) Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't expect you to care, but saying you prefer FreeBSD and saying FreeBSD is better are different animals. I just wanted to know what you could do with FreeBSD that you can't do with Windows. I already know what I can do with Windows that I can't do with FreeBSD. I didn't see the first few emails in this thread so excuse me if you have answered this, but what can you do on Windows that you can't do on FreeBSD. Other than play the latest and greatest games. I'm just wondering. Get a real development platform that will also build programs on Unix. Microsoft's developer program will use cvs on Unix, and submit scripts to do the builds. On its bad day, there isn't anything on Unix that comes close and that includes the ones you have to pay to use. Just to be fair, I had to do a conversion from Cray Fortran to non-Cray Fortran. It was an old program that allocated arrays and used pointers with offsets in the calls to the subroutines. The debugger on FreeBSD would catch the signal error but wouldn't show you the contents of the arrays. MS debug would just error off; however, if you stuck a breakpoint on the call that was blowing up on Unix, you could examine the arrays on Windows and see what caused the errors. It is handy to have them both around :). Kent Kent -- Kent Stewart Richland, WA Nunca te acostarás sin saber una cosa más http://users.owt.com/kstewart/index.html ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On 2005-12-24 07:34, Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not just tell the truth, which is that Windows XP is the best that you can do for the desktop, and that there is no perfect solution that works perfectly in every scenario? Because it's not the truth. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On 2005-12-24 09:16, Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael C. Shultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 24 December 2005 07:34, Danial Thom wrote: FreeBSD and Linux *should* focus on server functions, because that is where MS is weak and that is where its needed. There will likely never be a solid reason to use BSD or linux as a desktop other than religion; while there are many compelling reasons to use BSD and/or linux servers. Your opinion. Mine is FreeBSD has the potential to be a better desktop than either ms or Linux. The big problem at the moment is with web browser plugins. Desktop users coming from ms land demand these and FreeBSD simply comes up short in supporting them. I have faith that will change eventually. You're pretty much admitting here that FreeBSD desktop is not as functional as windows. Which was exactly the point I was making. No, he's admitting that there is one feature of Windows that some users may miss when they transition to FreeBSD. I can ennumerate at least two that FreeBSD users sorely miss when they are forced to work on Windows too. FreeBSD has the potential to be a very good MP OS. Currently it is not, so I don't use it. I need to run a business. Potential only means that I monitor its progress; I use what is the best available at the time for any given function. Good for you :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On 2005-12-24 14:01, Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don Hinton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For me, FreeBSD is about twice as fast/easy to install/configure, and infinitely cheaper. Considering that WinXP usually comes on the computer, I don't see how installing and configuring FreeBSD can be easier than having to do nothing at all? Windows XP comes preinstalled, yes. Not preconfigured too. It so happens that configuring a Windows XP system to match one's preferences has the potential to: a) Screw the machine up so completely and utterly that a reinstall is required. b) Take a lot of time. A huge lot of time, because of all the different 'driver' installation processes. On 2005-12-24 14:01, Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don Hinton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2) General productivity advantages in a typical day. ie: what can you do with FreeBSD that you can't do in WinXP, and what is faster or more productive in FreeBSD Depends on what you use it for. I'm a C++ developer, and have a need to examine/search/manipulate text files quite often, Windows, out of the box, is inappropriate for this type of work. I'd have to install all sorts of applications, e.g., cygwin, et al, to get the applications/capabilities that come out of the box on a typical *nix system, FreeBSD, Linux, etc... I'm a developer also, but I don't use the FreeBSD desktop for this, I log into my freeBSD server with my desktop browser or telnet/ssh. I don't see how such things are relevent to using one desktop over the other. Why should you have to use remote SSH to a second system, when you can just pop up an xterm and instantly have all the power of the tools you actually *do* use today too? I don't expect you to care, but saying you prefer FreeBSD and saying FreeBSD is better are different animals. I just wanted to know what you could do with FreeBSD that you can't do with Windows. I already know what I can do with Windows that I can't do with FreeBSD. There are a lot of things that can be done with FreeBSD, which are practically impossible or very confusing in Windows. Then there's also the stability issue :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
On Saturday 24 December 2005 02:57 pm, Danial Thom wrote: --- rod person [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:01:53 -0800 (PST) Danial Thom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't expect you to care, but saying you prefer FreeBSD and saying FreeBSD is better are different animals. I just wanted to know what you could do with FreeBSD that you can't do with Windows. I already know what I can do with Windows that I can't do with FreeBSD. I didn't see the first few emails in this thread so excuse me if you have answered this, but what can you do on Windows that you can't do on FreeBSD. Other than play the latest and greatest games. I'm just wondering. Schwab Streetsmart Accounting Software (CA) Quicken Photoshop Adobe Acrobat (for creating PDFs) There are a couple of others. I use Adobe GoLive and haven't found an equivalent. I could do some of the stuff better with a text editor but when I use GoLive, the whole update would be finished before I was hardly started using a text editor on FreeBSD. There is also the problem that some sites are designed to work with Internet Explorer. You can try to visit with firefox but that doesn't always work even with firefox on XP. We are still running flash-6 and 7 is in the works but I think that they have already announced that it has security problems. The fixed multimedia products are always released on Windows and it takes a while for them to get arount to the other OSes. You only have to look at the people recently with problems getting plugins to work on FreeBSD. You won't have any problem getting them to run on XP. They probably wouldn't work properly on Linux either. Now, I wouldn't use Outlook Express unless I was still working and the company demanded it. I am happy using kmail and thunderbird. But I forward some to my internal XP account because the graphics don't work properly with my setup. For a while, I was updating FreeBSD to add security fixes as much as I did my Windows 2K server. Both normally run for months without being rebooted. The OSes usually overlap and as long as I have choices available, I won't have to force a project onto an OS when it is really simple to add it to the one other OSes. That is the advantage of a heterogeneous computing environment. Projects just automagically move onto the OS where it is easiest to work on them. Kent -- Kent Stewart Richland, WA Nunca te acostarás sin saber una cosa más http://users.owt.com/kstewart/index.html ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BSD Question's.
People please, I did not come in search of a debate as to which OS was better. I came in Search of a newer or if you will, another choice in an OS. Two OS's which have been pointed out to me and look very promising are. 1. PC BSD 2. ALinux Both offer a lot, and I know as many people do that there is on one single OS that offers the perfect solution for everything. However I also know now something I did not know 24 hours ago. and that was that there are a wide range of choices that are availible and contrey to popular belief not all BSD and linux OS's are created the same. I also know now that William Gate is single individual who believes that the word team has an I in it some place. Something that BSD Linux knows does not exsist. After what William Gates and his Windows have put me through over the last three years. You can be sure that which ever OS choose will be desined by a TEAM and not by some knit wit that works for team Gates. Now can someone put me in touch with The Insane clown Posie. I have a project in mind...LOL! Merry christmas to all and thank you for your help. . DA Consultants George A. Sjostrom II Helping those who can help them selves http://www.geocities.com/andy_sjostrom/index.html __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
