Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Scott
One of the key things I'm thinking about is, independent of total space on the drive, it looks like physical sector sizes larger than 512b may be all that is available at some point in the not too distant future. Of course the drives will continue to appear as 512b to OSs/apps that don't know

Re: [Freedos-user] How to install kernel XXXX?

2011-04-10 Thread escape
In fact there is appinfo directory with fdkernel.lsm packaged within those zips. So, I believe, there is a way to actually install it with fdupdate. But as for me, it is much more straightforward to just unzip\overwrite. As for ISO editor it depends on OS you're using. For building ISOs in DOS

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread escape
Vote with your wallet. I'm personally not buying any 4k drives nor for myself nor for companies I'm working for. When you need more than 2Tb of space you always can add another 2Tb drive instead of replacing old drive with bigger (3Tb) one. On 10.04.11 10:10, Scott wrote: One of the key things

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Michael B. Brutman
On 4/10/2011 5:20 AM, escape wrote: Vote with your wallet. I'm personally not buying any 4k drives nor for myself nor for companies I'm working for. When you need more than 2Tb of space you always can add another 2Tb drive instead of replacing old drive with bigger (3Tb) one. I think that is

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread escape
Please get it right. I'm not arguing against support of new technologies. But now it's often when manufacturers trying to disguise cost cutting and marketing rubbish as prominent new technology. Look at monitors as an example. Getting 16:10 aspect along with 4:3 was not a bad idea. While for some

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Michael B. Brutman
On 4/10/2011 12:08 PM, escape wrote: Please get it right. I'm not arguing against support of new technologies. But now it's often when manufacturers trying to disguise cost cutting and marketing rubbish as prominent new technology. Look at monitors as an example. Getting 16:10 aspect along

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread escape
On 10.04.11 20:51, Michael B. Brutman wrote: I don't think I misread you. But the market is geared to the current problems, not the past problems. For some strange reason people like widescreen monitors even though most of our reading would benefit from portrait monitors. I'm agree with

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Jack
I shall add my two-cents worth to the current philosophical discussion about 4K sectors as follows -- To me, the most disturbing thing about modern PC systems is their ABSOLUTE LACK of concern for backward compatibility! We really did NOT need the PCI bus in 1994, except that Intel wanted to

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Michael B. Brutman
Jack, I love a good rant as much as anybody, but some context is needed. PCI was desperately needed by server class hardware. The ISA bus and the extensions to the ISA bus were failing for several reasons: - Inability to share interrupt lines - Three fragmented standards (ISA, VL, and EISA)

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Scott
Consumers (home and business) for the most part buy the bulk of their storage on $/GB type of decisions. Buying multiple lower capacity HDDs does not meet this model. The 2.5 and 3.5 form factors are such an embedded standard that making your drives a different size to get more platter area is

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Jack
Michael, You missed my point about backward compatibility, which has been notoriously ABSENT from the historical events I noted. PCI was desperately needed by server class hardware ... Fine, let them have it. But why did ORDINARY users have to be forced into buying newer mainboards, which

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Zbigniew B.
2011/4/10, Jack: Or, in fact, could this maybe [... just MAYBE!] be another case of the Wintel Consortium software BRATS being UNABLE to achieve their targets, using only their college-professors' and bosses' much-beloved C, and it is actually THOSE brats who are asking for such help?? This

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Mike Eriksen
On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 11:55 PM, Jack gykazequ...@earthlink.net wrote: A REAL BUS, you say??   If so, then explain to me why, on so many Intel-based systems, there are so many PCI BRIDGES!!   If it were a real bus, there would be only ONE bus, NOT so many bridges to yet-another set of wires

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Felix Miata
On 2011/04/10 14:55 (GMT-0700) Scott composed: more efficient use of the space, and that is what 4k sectors gets us. http://www.anandtech.com/Show/Index/2888 One estimate for 4K sector technology puts this at 100 bytes of ECC data needed for a 4K sector, versus 320 (40x8) for 8 512B

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Jack
Scott, Consumers (home and business) for the most part buy the bulk of their storage on $/GB type of decisions. Buying multiple lower capacity HDDs does not meet this model. A lot of Internet vendor websites, such as NewEgg, just may prove you wrong. Every time I look at NewEgg and

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Jack
Scott, My apologies (age 65 again!); in my last post about disk ECC sizes, I meant to say 10 byte and 16 byte ECCs, not bit. Jack R. Ellis -- Xperia(TM) PLAY It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming smartphone

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Jack
Zbigniew, This reminds me somewhat a Forth's Dillemma rant: ... Which I read, and I do not regard it as any rant but a statement of fact, especially as I suffered the same -- In 1968, when I still did 360/DOS mainframe work, IBM added job-stack capability for the DOS foreground-1 and -2

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Zbigniew B.
2011/4/10, Jack gykazequ...@earthlink.net: Your Forth's Dilemma is not any sort of rant but really a statement of fact. I know, since I have BEEN there and DONE that!, as we in the U.S.A. might say. Well, actually it's not mine - but I've found it interesting, and (as I wrote) your opinion

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Jack
Zbigniew, Your Forth's Dilemma is not any sort of rant but really a statement of fact. I know, since I have BEEN there and DONE that!, as we in the U.S.A. might say. Well, actually it's not mine - but I've found it interesting, and (as I wrote) your opinion brought it back to my mind.

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Scott
On 4/10/11 3:56 PM, Jack wrote: A lot of Internet vendor websites, such as NewEgg, just may prove you wrong. Every time I look at NewEgg and others, the latest- and-greatest hard disk has a price premium far WORSE than buying 2 hard disks of 1/2 the size. Most people don't buy the latest and

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Michael B. Brutman
Jack, There are so many inaccuracies and distortions in the reply that you sent, I'm going to assume you are just irritated or in a bad mood. The world moves on ... it doesn't make sense to support existing standards forever. You can have eternal support, or affordable prices, but not both.

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread Jack
There are so many inaccuracies and distortions in the reply that you sent, I'm going to assume you are just irritated or in a bad mood. In fact, I was neither, until reading what you post below. Once again you choose only to pick nits at the technical examples I mention, but flatly REFUSE to

Re: [Freedos-user] Large drives with 4k sectors presenting as 512b?

2011-04-10 Thread escape
On 11.04.11 00:55, Scott wrote: One estimate for 4K sector technology puts this at 100 bytes of ECC data needed for a 4K sector, versus 320 (40x8) for 8 512B sectors. Yes, that's about 5% (5,37% to be exact) you'll gain from 4k sectors. For 2Tb drive it will be equal to 100Gb of space. The