Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

But when you say "single entity", you're also implying a universe in which that single entity sits. I think in one of your posts, you put off talking about where the inputs/outputs come from/go to. We don't have to go all the way to multiple entities in order to continue the comparison of the

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

o stable purchase point beyond >> > what I>> > would call, "individual belief". When a group of people >> coalesces >> > around>> > a belief, what would you call that? (Shared belief?) Are all >> > shared>> > beli

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

glen,I should have been more specific - lower case truth is nothing more than one of those three specific types of failure, i.e. sensor fatigue, sensor or effector lock, or channelization of a circuit through the web. My model is deliberately simple and not intended to say anything about systems

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

< The only structures that could possibly satisfy the extreme embedded/responsive constraints you've put in place for "non-failure" will be completely "ordered" in the sense of having no depth or structure, including faster than light communication. This makes your definition a bit useless

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

But hailing back to the "doubt" thread, we *all* "mail it in" all the time. As Nick argues, when you get out of bed in the morning, you're "mailing it in" to some (or other) extent. When a jazz musician relies on muscle memory to do its job ("mail it in") so that a more reflective neural

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

But, as Marcus indirectly points out, your defn of truth as a capability failure, then holds everywhere, all the time. Any system with any temporal delay will exhibit it. E.g. the inputs come at time t0 and the reaction comes at time t1, during that delay Δt, the system is failing ...

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Thanks. I'm quite relieved to read this, since I think it to be "true." And the term "mail in" is now part of my lexicon. On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 1:15 AM, Prof David West wrote: > Quite the opposite. The system at the root of my definition is optimized > for 'all improv,

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

t; > of the moment I have made no argument for the EXISTENCE of anything > > beyond local truth. > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > &g

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Quite the opposite. The system at the root of my definition is optimized for 'all improv, all the time'. When that 'improv' ability is diminished by fixed, rote, performance, that is when the system fails. When you listen to a really good jazz group, or an orchestra learning a new piece (or

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

riam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David > West > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 12:59 PM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely > Nothing!” > > Steve, > > My definition refers to a single system - a sing

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Dave writes: It is not a system fault if the signal is irrelevant to survival. It could be good to dispose of the need to keep the sensor running, and reallocate the axons for combining other, more relevant signals. < Similarly, a particular pathway (set of pathways) are utilized more often

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Fans of Radiohead, for example, probably would not agree. From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 2:09 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Are you suggesting that if individuals begin to--shall we say--"improvise" that it disturbs the potential emergence of an harmonic system? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "mail in their part of the overall performance." On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 12:58 PM, Prof David West

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 12:59 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Steve, My definition refers to a single system - a single system and is not intended to suggest anything about interacting systems, nor anything external to itself. I do assume that this system is contained within a complex system which is the source of the input signals detected by the sensors.

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Dave sez: It is certainly possible for one sensor-web-effector state machine to "infect" another, i.e. stimulate a second machine to replicate the behavior. If that happens we have 'convergence' which is nothing more than collective 'fault'/ 'defectiveness'. It sounds as if you believe that

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Well, to be clear, I think the idea of your sensor-web-effector individuals squirming in a machine is perfectly consistent with Peirce's conception of reality. The disconnect lies in the extent to which that machine (in which the sensor-web-effector individuals squirm) is "fixed once and for

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

ychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:19 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “H

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

truth is — the persistence of a particular wiring path in an immensely complicated, and otherwise dynamic, web of connections among billions of sensors capturing input and hundreds of thousands of effectors generating output from one state of the sensors-web-effectors to another.truth is a

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Excellent! So, now, if we listen to Dave with some empathy, we can ask him if his "local truth" is similar to the naive realist's "with respect to what you or I think"? Dave? FWIW, I predict Dave will respond with something like the assertion that locality (scope) is set by the language.

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

logy Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? ? Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 12:25 PM To: FriAM <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

On 10/17/2017 10:50 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > by asserting another definition of Truth, but so far nobody has done that.  Heh, now you're playing a new game! 8^) Plenty of us *have* provided other definitions of truth. As in active listening exercises, perhaps you could make an attempt to

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Perfectly stated, Marcus! It might also be useful to note that drugs like LSD, whether Dave meant them this way or not, are VERY good belief demolishers. This is, I think, the heart of why psilocybin helps some terminally ill finish their lives in a happier state. I also think it's why

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? ? Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:21 AM To: FriAM <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!” Whew! Fantastic thread! I'm gr

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Roger writes: “This brought me to the idea that our primary form of social interaction is gas lighting each other. Not in the sense that we are trying to drive each other crazy by hiding evidence of the truth, but because we are continually trying to persuade each other of truths.” We hear

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

edfish.com] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:27 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!” I looked at Dave's listicle of truths about tru

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Whew! Fantastic thread! I'm grateful to be able to witness it. I'd like to point out that Peirce (and as Dave points out, many of us) are what I'd call "Grand Unified Modelers" (GUMmers): those who think there is, in R. Rosen's terms a "largest model" ... a penultimate language that if we

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Dave writes: “3- It is not a pose. My antipathy for rule, convention, certitude in almost any form is very real and very essential to my sense of self. You have no comprehension of the sense of alienation this conviction engenders.” And yet the From line says “Prof David West”. Back to

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

ompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert > Wall > *Sent:* Sunday, October 15, 2017 1:20 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “H

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

t;> >> Nick >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology >> Clark University >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Friam [m

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 12:27 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!” Naw back at ya. I am not picking a fight or being contentious just to be contentious. I am

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

son > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > -Original Message- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David > West > Sent: Sunday, October 15, 20

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

esigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Robert Wall Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 1:20 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!” Steven writes: What

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

pretation of computer programs as > artifacts. After years of working on such programs, I'd go so far as to > say I could some infer things about the author's personality, and I can say > I've been right after meeting them too. It is important to note what is > not done as much as what

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

;mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Prof David West <mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm> <profw...@fastmail.fm> Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:44:27 AM To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! Wh

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

nk.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 8:39 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!” Dave writes: > Specifically that

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of gepr ? Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 8:08 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Abso

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

sh.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:59 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!” Nick writes: "Try this: Imagine that you hav

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

al Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:44 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!” Hi Nick,I write from Vienna. I will be back in Utah next week an

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

of life on earth. Marcus From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Steven A Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 9:41:52 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

doing and why. The only thing that really holds them together are consequential logical constraints in their work products. Marcus From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:44:27

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

--- *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> *Sent:* Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:44:27 AM *To:* friam@redfish.com *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!” Hi Nick,I write fro

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

t what they are doing and why. The only > thing that really holds them together are consequential logical > constraints in their work products.> > Marcus > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Prof David West > <profw...@fastmail.fm> *Sent:* S

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

traints in their work products. Marcus From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:44:27 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

And that's the God's Honest Truth :-) Sorry, couldn't resist. On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 8:53 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Nick, David: you are both correct. > > Frank > > Frank Wimberly > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > On Oct 15, 2017 12:44 AM, "Prof David West"

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Well, Peirce's work in modal logics demonstrates his methodological pluralism. So it seems to me he would agree with Dave to a large extent. Nick seems to focus on Peirce's metaphysics, of which I'm largely ignorant. But it seems like Peirce's distinction between reality and existence might

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Nick, David: you are both correct. Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Oct 15, 2017 12:44 AM, "Prof David West" wrote: Hi Nick,I write from Vienna. I will be back in Utah next week and at FRIAM for a couple of weeks starting in mid-December. You can apply cold

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

ent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 11:50:17 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!” David, Somebody has obviously riled you up, wherever you have gone to. Please come back so I can administer cold compre

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Hi Nick,I write from Vienna. I will be back in Utah next week and at FRIAM for a couple of weeks starting in mid-December. You can apply cold compresses then, or just toss me in a snow bank. The "edge" that you do not recognize is present in your response. First, you propose a

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

David, Somebody has obviously riled you up, wherever you have gone to. Please come back so I can administer cold compresses. I can recognize in what you write below the vague outlines of things I have said about Peirce, but your representation of me has a kind of edge I don't think I ever

Re: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Dave writes: "Nothing IS except in context and therefore only local – situated - ‘truths’ are possible." This is why imperative programming is a bad idea. Identify all possible dependencies, even if they don't seem relevant. Those extra bits with name the different local situations.