Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 9:14 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? "I don't care what you think you have deduced from formal logic, if you jump whe

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

ritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > -----Original Message- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of u?l? ? > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 6:30 PM > To:

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 6:30 PM To: FriAM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? So, to be clear, are you also making fun of reasoning like this? I ask because it's equal in idealism to the trolley problem. On 07/11/2018 07:4

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

So, to be clear, are you also making fun of reasoning like this? I ask because it's equal in idealism to the trolley problem. On 07/11/2018 07:48 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Jones is in a gunfight > Jones Knows that his opponent has only a six shooter > Jones knows that his opponent has just

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

t it's not a value. > > N > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > -Original Message- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of u?l? ? &

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

son/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 10:31 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Sci

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 10:31 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? De gustibus non est disputandum Frank Wimberly www.amazon.com/author/frankwi

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

..@redfish.com] On Behalf Of u?l? ? > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 3:14 PM > To: FriAM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? > > Aha! That's good to know. Like deeply parsing Liz Phair lyrics, you > *cannot* rely on me to infer what you imply. I'm just not smart en

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 3:14 PM To: FriAM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? Aha! That's good to know. Like deeply parsing Liz Phair lyrics, you *cannot* rely on me to infer what you imply. I'm just not smart enough. On 07

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Aha! That's good to know. Like deeply parsing Liz Phair lyrics, you *cannot* rely on me to infer what you imply. I'm just not smart enough. On 07/11/2018 12:10 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > I was making FUN of the trolley game. I don't want to play it any more than > you do! -- ☣ uǝlƃ

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Re: Decision Paralysis.  A sage friend of mine used to say "sometimes the most you can do is nothing".  I'm also lead to think of "Symmetry Breaking" in dynamical systems. Re: Gil's question of whether this list is dead or not...  I certainly have dialed back my participation in the psuedo

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Glen writes: "If some action will be required *anyway*, common to a wide array of potential actions and consequences, then do that." Another form would be "I'm lost, so I'll follow another car." These kinds of damage-limiting default actions (when actions are *required*) need not be

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

This brings to mind the dimensionality of the space of possible actions. I don't play the Trolley Game Nick wants to play because the space is absurdly, artificially small ... presented by sophists who care little about the real world. The real world (usually) presents a very high dimensional

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

on behalf of Nick Thompson Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Date: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 9:21 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? Fascinating response, Marcus. Does this mean you cannot imagine

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

“*You are the man in charge of a track switch beyond which tied to the tracks, on one side, four French Poodles and on the other side your beloved Aunt Susie. Incidentally, you should also know that the passenger cars on the train are loaded with a thousand pregnant girl scouts. (So don’t try

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

. Marcus From: Friam on behalf of Nick Thompson Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Date: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 9:21 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? Fascinating response, Marcus. Does

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 11:34 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? Of you kill Aunt Susie in order to save French poodles, you're going to prison. Frank Wimberly www.amazon.com/author/frankwi

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

ickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Marcus > Daniels > *Sent:* Saturday, July 07, 2018 12:10 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] What

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2018 12:10 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? “By doubt, here, I don't mean entertained doubt. I mean doubt sufficiently profound that one cannot, wh

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

son/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 2:54 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? p

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

p.s. I also said that the probability of heads for a fair coin is 0.5. Of course, that's a definition but since he was denying the reality of probability I think that cut some ice. Frank Wimberly www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Actually Nick is competitive with you for skepticism. We were discussing probabilities and he said you can't know the probability of an event based on past observations. He basically said just because the probability of an event has always been P, how do you know it still is? Is that a fair

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Sorry for the extra post. But it occurred to me you might be asking whether *my* autonomous nervous system believes in the utility of these measurements. If so, I can give a full-throated "No." My doubt comes from listening to my S.O. (Renee') talk about things like blood pressure and how

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Interesting insertion of "utility", a kind of meta-variable to be considered. To be clear, I'd say the organism believes in heartbeats, lung pumping, etc. But to ask whether the organism believes in the usability/utility of (subjective) measurements of such things smacks of a hidden

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Hi Glen, I think the answer may be in what you just wrote, but a bit of assistance please. If we were to anthropomorphize your autonomous nervous system would you say it 'believed' or 'doubted' the utility of heartbeats, lungs pumping, etc.? My interest arises from studies of Yoga adepts who

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Heh. No, I've been more than fair, explaining my "different understanding of belief" over and over again. 8^) You simply ignore what I write. I'll try once more, I suppose. Belief is a thresholded amount of confidence in one's ability to control an interaction with the environment. Doubt

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2018 6:09 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? I've answered your question so manu times, it doesn't seem worth it to answer again. But such is life, eh? Doubt is uncertainty. Our bodies (including our

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Very interesting! My neighbor had a similar problem after having his hip replaced. Neither he nor his Dr understand the relationship between getting used to his new hip and breathing anxiety. But he has been a Tae Kwon Do master for decades. So it would make some sense to hypothesize an

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

About 18 months ago I had an experience which is perhaps not relevant but it came to mind as I read what you wrote, Glen. As a result of a dream I was in a state of anxiety which persisted for days. One of the symptoms was an irrational fear that I would stop breathing if I didn't consciously

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

I've answered your question so manu times, it doesn't seem worth it to answer again. But such is life, eh? Doubt is uncertainty. Our bodies (including our minds) deal with uncertainty by maintaining feedback with the environment. Such doubting feedback is present even during actions of which

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

orning Applied Complexity Coffee Group ; Nick Thompson Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? OCD <https://psychcentral.com/lib/doubt-ocd-how-do-you-make-a-decision/> is another condition that might explain a fixation on doubt. Perhaps individuals in very narrow specialties ar

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2018 9:57 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? Very funny image. Frank Wimberly www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly <http://www.a

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

noutfarm.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, July 07, 2018 9:01 PM > *To:* Nick Thompson ; 'The Friday Morning > Applied Complexity Coffee Group' > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? > > > > *<*So when you say, “I doubt everything” that MEANS to me that you do > n

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

PM To: Marcus Daniels Cc: Friam Subject: RE: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? Marcus, The doubts you cite are REAL because we will see you act upon them. We will see you test the floor for something furry. Lorenzo allows you to deny him your bed during a thunderstorm! You are a stern

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

lexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism? It just means that memory and perception are provisional or even probabilistic. So, when you put your feet out to the floor in the middle of the night, do you doubt that the floor is there? I do

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

It just means that memory and perception are provisional or even probabilistic. So, when you put your feet out to the floor in the middle of the night, do you doubt that the floor is there? I do doubt that it is safe for me to put my feet down, because I know the floor can be obscured by my

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

OCD is another condition that might explain a fixation on doubt. Perhaps individuals in very narrow specialties are especially concerned with reputation and will go to great lengths to minimize regret or embarrassment, but I

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Well, of course you know where I stand on this. That description of 'doubt' is useless to me because I doubt everything. There is no such thing as 'paralyzing doubt'. I'd lean more towards Marcus answer on that. Similarly, I don't place 'good thought' in opposition to doubt. To me, doubt IS

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

“By doubt, here, I don't mean entertained doubt. I mean doubt sufficiently profound that one cannot, when one needs to, pursue any course of action. REAL doubt. Paralyzing doubt.” That’s a different thing, anxiety and/or depression. Treatable with exercise, medication, or therapy.

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Glen, There is another solution to suicidal skepticism which Is to embrace scientism but broaden the definition of science. This, I think, is CSPeirce's way. We define good thought as any thought that will, in the fullness of time ... the very, very fullness of time .. be agreed upon.

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Yes, exactly! Those damn scientismists are *exactly* like Trumpians. 8^) You have to throw your drink in their face to get their attention. On 07/06/2018 01:30 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > “Given that many of my disagreements with the local atheists hinge on their > cultish and non-skeptical

Re: [FRIAM] What's so bad about Scientism?

Glen writes: “Given that many of my disagreements with the local atheists hinge on their cultish and non-skeptical acceptance of scientific results [..]” I am imagining it went down something like