Re: [Audyssey] free games was Piracy
Hi Charles, Well, keep in mind that was a ball park figure, a good guess on my part, but I believe David Greenwood said at one time that Shades of Doom 1.0 had sold a little over 200 copies. If you do the math 200 games times $35.00 each is $7,000.00 USD give or take a few for rounding. Then, he also mentioned to me that he had sold about 40 games after releasing version 1.2. That's another $1,400.00 USD on top of the money he made for 1.0. The grose income therefore is about $8,400 for that one game, and I have missed a few as I'm going on memory and not exact figures here. So I place the full potential of that one game somewhere between $8,000 and $10,000 as i figure it. That's not a bad income for an accessible game, but it is still less than minimum wage if we consider that a person's years income for a single product. As I said before that will certainly help pay off some credit cards, a nice down payment on a car, you can buy a new computer, things like that, but it is not any kind of income you can live off of by any means. Plus you have to consider any costs like sounds, music, special licenses, taxes, etc that will reduce your actual take home pay considerably. So if a game does well it isn't very good pay at all as you could get a job at McDonald's and make more. That's the sad truth of it. Charles Rivard wrote: Now I'm curious. What game made, maybe, 8 to 10 thousand bucks? I wonder if I have it? Thanks. --- In God we trust! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] free games was Piracy
While this makes sense Tom, I would however be interested to know what Draconis' or 7-128's overheads are, sinse both, rather than being one man bands, are full companies with a larger staff. does the larger staff, with it's inclusion of actors sound designers and musicians as well as programmers increase the net prophets by decreasing the general cost? Also, of course 7-128 do make other games besides their accessible ones, does this increase their overhead? I'd also be interested to know about subscription or donation projects which have appeal for sighted players as well. On the symple end of the scale there si all in play. then however, there are games like Sryth, which at one time had about 2000 subscribing players (it's probably got more now, that's 38000 dollars a year, and that's at a conservative estimate of the player base. I have friends in supposedly good, full time employment graduate standard jobs who earn less than that. This is also why I have no sympathy with the Sryth Webmasters' more recent money grabbing activities concerning the sale of adventurer tocans, but there you go. would this be a way for a developer to maintain an income while creating accessible games? Of course, it has the aded problem of the developer needing to continually create at least some new content to make the players' subscriptions worth it, - but given the comparative ease of html programming and the fact that if the game already exists, adding extra content should be relatively symple, would this leave time for other projects and yet create sufficient income? I'm not certain myself, I just thought it was an interesting possibility to discuss while considdering games developement and finances. Btw, creating a single player text rpg is something I myself would considder doing in the future once my phd is finished and if I am not taken up with either academic or fiction writing, sinse at that point I could probably devote sufficient time and dedication to learning necessary html programming, - and after Tom's comments about html being the best medium for a text rpg game, it's something I'd give serious consideration to, I already have several ideas. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] free games was Piracy
Hi Dark, Well, I don't know Draconis's or 7-128's financial overhead, but it would be interesting to add to the debate if they would be willing to share or release such information here. All I do know is that game's specifically created for the blind generally don't do well, and the income made off of them isn't enough to make a living. As a result most of us have jobs outside the games we create for fun. Now, as for a game like Sryth it has a large appeal that is not specific to just blind players. As a result Michael has a sizable subscriber base including both blind and sighted players alike. Given that it is a game accessible to the blind and sighted gamers anyone can likely make a living off that type of game as long as there are people willing to pay for a subscription and give donations. Granted in the USA thirty to fourty thousand a year is not considered very good money, but you can live on it if you are careful with your money, aren't a big spender, and manage it well. It is certainly better money than the average person gets running the checkout counter for a store, stocking shelves, or a hundred other entry level jobs here in the USA. To answer your questions more directly a blind game developer probably could make it if he or she did design a very good online based RPG game that would be available to both blind and sighted players alike. Obviously the game would need to be maintained in order to keep the customers coming back, but maintaining it would be much less work than writing it in the first place. He could work on other accessible games in his free time tha would of course add to his over all income, and still be making a living at it. I've thought about doing this myself, but I'm not really sure I'm up to the task of writing a good roll playing game as compelling as Final Fantacy or even as good as Sryth. For me it is a creativity block rather than a technical block. Smile. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] free games was Piracy
That's interesting and brings a new perspective to the debate. I didn't realize the cost of living in the us was quite that high currently. In England, the governmental minimum wage is about £14000 a year, which given current exchange rate is probably something like $21000. A wage of £2, - or about $32000 is considdered a good starting wage, and what many teachers, computer programmers and other professional jobs will be earning when they first qualify (I have various friends in this state currently). I now appreciate the financial situation quite a bit more. I do wonder though, if making an accessible rpg game similar to Sryth, and using the finances from such a game to fund developement of other accessible games would be a viable decision for a programmer. My estimates of the Sryth Gm's income were conservative at best, and there are certainly more subscribing players now. Also, as I said, I think he's got considderably greedy with forced donations as time has continued. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:08 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] free games was Piracy Hi Dark, Well, I don't know Draconis's or 7-128's financial overhead, but it would be interesting to add to the debate if they would be willing to share or release such information here. All I do know is that game's specifically created for the blind generally don't do well, and the income made off of them isn't enough to make a living. As a result most of us have jobs outside the games we create for fun. Now, as for a game like Sryth it has a large appeal that is not specific to just blind players. As a result Michael has a sizable subscriber base including both blind and sighted players alike. Given that it is a game accessible to the blind and sighted gamers anyone can likely make a living off that type of game as long as there are people willing to pay for a subscription and give donations. Granted in the USA thirty to fourty thousand a year is not considered very good money, but you can live on it if you are careful with your money, aren't a big spender, and manage it well. It is certainly better money than the average person gets running the checkout counter for a store, stocking shelves, or a hundred other entry level jobs here in the USA. To answer your questions more directly a blind game developer probably could make it if he or she did design a very good online based RPG game that would be available to both blind and sighted players alike. Obviously the game would need to be maintained in order to keep the customers coming back, but maintaining it would be much less work than writing it in the first place. He could work on other accessible games in his free time tha would of course add to his over all income, and still be making a living at it. I've thought about doing this myself, but I'm not really sure I'm up to the task of writing a good roll playing game as compelling as Final Fantacy or even as good as Sryth. For me it is a creativity block rather than a technical block. Smile. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] free games was Piracy
What counts is the game developer's reasons for developing their games. Jim Kitchen does it strictly as a hobby. Others don't. --- In God we trust! - Original Message - From: Willem dwill...@gmail.com To: Munawar Bijani munaw...@gmail.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 11:08 AM Subject: [Audyssey] free games was Piracy Hi all. Now the issue of piracy has reared it's head, I have a question for everybody. Is it really worth all the effort to sell an accessible game? I know you make money, but is it really enough to live off? As things appear from my side, a potential developer, making audio games is almost a charity job anyway. The market is so small and many people can't afford the games or just crack them plain and simple, which makes the buyers even less. Either way, you have to do it because you love what you do and not to make money. In fact most developers have other jobs as I understand it. In fact some programmers build useful utilities just to have a website worth visiting so they can put up adds and a donate button, which works better in some, if not most cases. Lastly, I know there goes more into a game than programming. You spend thousands on sound libraries, licensing systems and the like, but wouldn't a free, community-driven project be more worthwhile? I have also heard the arguments against community projects, namely that everybody has their own coding style and ideas and that there isn't enough people who would contribute without wanting something back, but at this stage it's all one man shows, except GMA who sub licensed the GMA engine. I know there are exceptions, like Thomas Ward and Raceway/mota, but to my mind trying to live off making games is like squeezing water out of a piece of wood, all be it a wet piece of wood. Like you can see I don't have much experience in this area, but I would like to hear what you all think. I especially want to hear from the people that have been doing it for years. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] free games was Piracy
Now I'm curious. What game made, maybe, 8 to 10 thousand bucks? I wonder if I have it? Thanks. --- In God we trust! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] free games was Piracy Hi Willem, Well, I haven't been in the business as long as GMA, Jim Kitchen, or BSC, but it doesn't take long to get a feel for what the market is really like. I can probably answer your questions as well as the next person. Is it really worth all the effort to sell an accessible game? I would say no, and there are plenty of reasons why I say this. First, of course is copyright issues. Companies tend to turn a blind eye towards the free and open source projects like FreeCiv, KDE Packman, and Open Quake, because although they are based on the commercial products they are free and open source. It usually isn't worth a company's time and money trying to sue the developer or open source community for creating a free clone of their software. However, the minute that same developer tries to market the product, sell it commercially, he owes royalties to the company that holds the copyrights. If he makes enough at it and doesn't pay the royalties he can be taken to court in order to redress the money the company believes they are owed for the use of their copyrights and trademarks. Obviously, this is not something an accessible game developer ever hopes to face. Second, back when I was creating STFC I truly enjoyed writing games. Partly because it was for the most part freeware, and there was little pressure to get it done by a certain date. As soon as I took over the games from James North I was suddenly expected to get the games done as soon as possible, and there has been nothing but pressure to get the games done. That has largely effected my desire to do the games. Third, when you take money for the games you have to report the income to the government, file taxes, and you end up with almost nothing for your troubles in return. Considering there isn't much to be gained from game sales it usually just ends up covering the sounds and music costs, things like that, and the developer ends up with no real extra money to spend. Can you make a living writing accessible games? No, you really can't. You can make some to pay off a few bills, perhaps buy a new computer, or something like that but it isn't a job that pays you a stable income to live off of. The most I've heard an accessible game made was something like $10,000.00 USD, and after taxes go out you maybe end up with $7,000 to $8,000. That's assuming the game really did well. Usually, from what I've heard, a game usually makes $2,000 to $3,000 grose, and after taxes you are not making much off the game at all. So say about $2,500is average for a game as best I can guess. HTH Willem wrote: Hi all. Now the issue of piracy has reared it's head, I have a question for everybody. Is it really worth all the effort to sell an accessible game? I know you make money, but is it really enough to live off? As things appear from my side, a potential developer, making audio games is almost a charity job anyway. The market is so small and many people can't afford the games or just crack them plain and simple, which makes the buyers even less. Either way, you have to do it because you love what you do and not to make money. In fact most developers have other jobs as I understand it. In fact some programmers build useful utilities just to have a website worth visiting so they can put up adds and a donate button, which works better in some, if not most cases. Lastly, I know there goes more into a game than programming. You spend thousands on sound libraries, licensing systems and the like, but wouldn't a free, community-driven project be more worthwhile? I have also heard the arguments against community projects, namely that everybody has their own coding style and ideas and that there isn't enough people who would contribute without wanting something back, but at this stage it's all one man shows, except GMA who sub licensed the GMA engine. I know there are exceptions, like Thomas Ward and Raceway/mota, but to my mind trying to live off making games is like squeezing water out of a piece of wood, all be it a wet piece of wood. Like you can see I don't have much experience in this area, but I would like to hear what you all think. I especially want to hear from the people that have been doing it for years. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding
