Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[goshawk on horseback]

nice one, am looking forward to it.

Simon


- Original Message - 
From: "Marty Schultz" <ma...@kidfriendlysoftware.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do


Great idea.  I am also adding sailing trip, with ripped sails,broken
rudder, waves, etc.




On 4/26/2016 11:51 AM, Phil Vlasak wrote:
> Marty,
> You could take one of your existing card games and alter the meaning
> of the cards.
>
> You could turn Blindfold Road Trip to
> Pirate treasure hunt.
> You're on a pirate ship sailing from island to island digging up
> treasure.
> Instead of calling them distance cards:
> call them gold pieces
> the object is to collect 1000 gold pieces.
> 25 gold pieces, 12,
> 50 gold pieces, 12,
> 75 gold pieces, 12,
> 100 gold pieces, 14,
> 200 gold pieces, 6.
> Total 56
>
> hazard cards:
> out of wind  2,
> leaking ship  2,
> ripped sale  2,
> storm 3,
> no food  4.
> Total 13
>
> remedy cards:
> wind 6,
> patch hull 6,
> repair sale  6,
> end of storm 6,
> stock up food 14
> total 28
>
>safety cards:
> constant wind 1,
> puncture-proof hull 1,
> non-rippable sales 1,
> no storms 1.
> Plenty of food 1.
> Total 5
>
>
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>

-- 
*Marty Schultz*
ma...@kidfriendlysoftware.com <mailto:ma...@kidfriendlysoftware.com>

Blindfold Racer - free iPhone/iPad app where you drive with your ears,
not your eyes www.BlindfoldRacer.com <http://www.BlindfoldRacer.com>

Learn about how we built it for blind & visually impaired kids, teens &
adults as a STEM project.
Follow the blog: BlindfoldGames.org <https://blindfoldgames.org>
Follow us: @BlindfoldGames <https://twitter.com/blindfoldgames>

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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[goshawk on horseback]

I for one, really like this idea!

Simon


- Original Message - 
From: "Phil Vlasak" <phi...@bex.net>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do


Marty,
You could take one of your existing card games and alter the meaning of the
cards.

You could turn Blindfold Road Trip to
Pirate treasure hunt.
You're on a pirate ship sailing from island to island digging up
treasure.
Instead of calling them distance cards:
call them gold pieces
the object is to collect 1000 gold pieces.
25 gold pieces, 12,
50 gold pieces, 12,
75 gold pieces, 12,
100 gold pieces, 14,
200 gold pieces, 6.
Total 56

hazard cards:
out of wind  2,
leaking ship  2,
ripped sale  2,
storm 3,
no food  4.
Total 13

remedy cards:
wind 6,
patch hull 6,
repair sale  6,
end of storm 6,
stock up food 14
total 28

safety cards:
constant wind 1,
puncture-proof hull 1,
non-rippable sales 1,
no storms 1.
Plenty of food 1.
Total 5


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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Marty Schultz]

Great idea.  I am also adding sailing trip, with ripped sails,broken 
rudder, waves, etc.





On 4/26/2016 11:51 AM, Phil Vlasak wrote:

Marty,
You could take one of your existing card games and alter the meaning 
of the cards.


You could turn Blindfold Road Trip to
Pirate treasure hunt.
You're on a pirate ship sailing from island to island digging up
treasure.
Instead of calling them distance cards:
call them gold pieces
the object is to collect 1000 gold pieces.
25 gold pieces, 12,
50 gold pieces, 12,
75 gold pieces, 12,
100 gold pieces, 14,
200 gold pieces, 6.
Total 56

hazard cards:
out of wind  2,
leaking ship  2,
ripped sale  2,
storm 3,
no food  4.
Total 13

remedy cards:
wind 6,
patch hull 6,
repair sale  6,
end of storm 6,
stock up food 14
total 28

   safety cards:
constant wind 1,
puncture-proof hull 1,
non-rippable sales 1,
no storms 1.
Plenty of food 1.
Total 5


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--
*Marty Schultz*
ma...@kidfriendlysoftware.com 

Blindfold Racer - free iPhone/iPad app where you drive with your ears, 
not your eyes www.BlindfoldRacer.com 


Learn about how we built it for blind & visually impaired kids, teens & 
adults as a STEM project.

Follow the blog: BlindfoldGames.org 
Follow us: @BlindfoldGames 

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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Phil Vlasak]

Marty,
You could take one of your existing card games and alter the meaning of the 
cards.


You could turn Blindfold Road Trip to
Pirate treasure hunt.
You're on a pirate ship sailing from island to island digging up
treasure.
Instead of calling them distance cards:
call them gold pieces
the object is to collect 1000 gold pieces.
25 gold pieces, 12,
50 gold pieces, 12,
75 gold pieces, 12,
100 gold pieces, 14,
200 gold pieces, 6.
Total 56

hazard cards:
out of wind  2,
leaking ship  2,
ripped sale  2,
storm 3,
no food  4.
Total 13

remedy cards:
wind 6,
patch hull 6,
repair sale  6,
end of storm 6,
stock up food 14
total 28

   safety cards:
constant wind 1,
puncture-proof hull 1,
non-rippable sales 1,
no storms 1.
Plenty of food 1.
Total 5


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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[dark]

Hi Ken.

Magic the gathering is a ccg, not an rpg. That is, it's a collectable card 
game, albeit one with a fantasy theme (other ccgs exist for everyting from 
pokemon, to wwwe wrestling, to harry potter).


Ccgs work as effectively two or more player battle games. players collect 
cards (usually in unnumbered packagess at random), make a deck comprising a 
specific numbers of cards they've made, and do battle against each other 
attempting to win in statistical, and usually rather complex strategical 
combat, btw, my brother was in the world championships for several ccgs, 
hence where I got to know this sort of thing.


This is not however an rpg, sinse the object isn't to progress a character 
through a story or explore a world engaging in statistical combat or making 
choices as part of that ongong exploration, but for two players to first 
build decks out of these thousands of cards and then play a statistical 
combat game against each other simply to see who wins, sort of like an ultra 
complex version of bridge, indeed "deck building" ie, choosing which of the 
thousands of available ccg cards to have in a player's deck in matches is 
it's own skill, quite aside from actually playing the deck against your 
opponent.


Making a ccg, much less making one from scratch electronically would be 
quite the task. Definitely not impossible, but a rather different project 
from a streight up rpg game, so magic the gathering probably isn't a good 
inspiration to look into, though confusingly enough there are some card 
based rpgs which function in a different way with the cards actually telling 
a story and providing randomized factors, and the player or players all 
playing from the same initial deck rather than collecting and building their 
own decks.


Munchkin is one I've heard of that works this way, as does the more recent 
heroes of the multiverse (a game several of my friends play).


hth.

all the best,

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Ken Downey]

Yes he could have, and I wish for his sake that he would have.
- Original Message - 
From: "dark" <d...@xgam.org>

To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do



Actually Kennith, Swamp wasn't in development that long.

From the initial very simple offline version to the first multiplayer 
server took roughly two months, and in four everything was up and running.
yes, there's been massive expantions with maps and weapons and accounts 
and what not, and yes hacker trouble, but don't mistake that for the 
development time, had aprone been charging for the game earlier he 
could've been earning money on it pretty dam soon.


all the best,

dark.
- Original Message - 
From: "Kenneth Downey" <kenwdow...@me.com>

To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do


Yes, but think about how many years Swauk was in development… And it was 
a free game… For a long time anyway, until stupid hackers started messing 
everything up… Can you imagine swab for the iPhone! Anyway, it's back to 
blindfold pinball for me now… I'm addicted!


Sent from my iPad

On Apr 14, 2016, at 6:56 AM, Devin Prater <r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com> 
wrote:


Why would you need soundscapes and voice acting? A dark room is text, 
and does just fine. Touchmint’s games are mostly text, and do mostly 
fine as well. Nano empire is wonderful, and is text also. I’m saying 
that you don’t need expensive acting and sound do make a good game.

Sent from my Mac.

Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com



On Apr 13, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Darren Harris 
<darren_g_har...@btinternet.com> wrote:


Hi,

I have 1 thing to say about replayable games,

Swamp. That's a 1 man band doing all that, look at how good a game that 
is?

Now have something like that on the iPhone and that would be awesome.

-Original Message-
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy 
Brown

Sent: 13 April 2016 18:36
To: gamers
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
on more ambitious games.

Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.

I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:

You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
into account sound scape or voice acting.

It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by 

Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Ken Downey]

What about magic the gathering?
- Original Message - 
From: "Marty Schultz" <ma...@kidfriendlysoftware.com>

To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do


I would attempt an RPG based around a card game, if someone could point me 
to one.  More often than not, I search for either programming code for an 
existing game, or for extremely detailed instructions, and then rewrite the 
entire thing for the iphone.


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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Ken Downey]

It helps for sure!
- Original Message - 
From: "goshawk on horseback" <goshawk_on_horseb...@fastmail.co.uk>

To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do



whilst it may not be absolutely necessary, good soundscapes and voice
acting, does improve a game quite a bit.

Simon


- Original Message - 
From: "Devin Prater" <r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com>

To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do


Why would you need soundscapes and voice acting? A dark room is text, and
does just fine. Touchmint’s games are mostly text, and do mostly fine as
well. Nano empire is wonderful, and is text also. I’m saying that you don’t
need expensive acting and sound do make a good game.
Sent from my Mac.

Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com




On Apr 13, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Darren Harris
<darren_g_har...@btinternet.com> wrote:

Hi,

I have 1 thing to say about replayable games,

Swamp. That's a 1 man band doing all that, look at how good a game that
is?
Now have something like that on the iPhone and that would be awesome.

-Original Message-
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy
Brown
Sent: 13 April 2016 18:36
To: gamers
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
on more ambitious games.

Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.

I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:

You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
into account sound scape or voice acting.

It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
hopefully profitable.

As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)

Take care,

Jeremy




--
In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa

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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[dark]

The problem with most card games is that they're intrinsically multiplayer 
affairs, so games like heroes of the multiverse as far as I know work very 
much by having multiple players.


I don't know if there is anything single player on Ios which works by card 
game mechanics for generation, though it'd be very possible.



The torchlight random adventure system over at http://www.arborell.com/ is 
however probably something like what I was thinking, that uses a pack of 40 
or so cards for the rooms with modifications by rolls on dice tables for 
encountering monsters etc, though because the gm is primarily a gamebook 
author, the system is mostly intended to be printed out and played and is 
thus limited in terms of how many cards and how much on a table is needed to 
generate the dungeon.


it is possible to play the initiatial torchlight game using tables and dice 
and an xl sheet as a map of the dungeon, though the gm of arborell has 
worked on some other smaller games which have changed things a little which 
don't have the access fixes involved, however I could imagine a game created 
using the same sort of mechanics as arborell does, though able to use more 
complex maths being on a computer, eg, percentile roles for gaining skills 
and things rather than basic add point dice ones.


Hth.

All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: "Marty Schultz" <ma...@kidfriendlysoftware.com>

To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do


I would attempt an RPG based around a card game, if someone could point me 
to one.  More often than not, I search for either programming code for an 
existing game, or for extremely detailed instructions, and then rewrite the 
entire thing for the iphone.


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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[dark]

Hi Jeremy.

I agree the wastes took randomness a bit far, and some sort of scaled 
approach might work, but there are examples of games that got it right, 
Angband, despite being a roguelike is one of them.


I do think Fallthru was a good example, because while the challenges were 
the same the ways you completed them differed, ie, where you went and what 
you collected sinse you were unsure what you'd get, and of course Eamon 
rocks.


The problem with If titles as an example of text games, is that generally 
the if community have got so tied up with the idea of puzzles and parza, 
they are stuck for any sort of other challenge, indeed any game with combat 
mechanics gets roundly bashed by if players, not to mention games with 
random descriptions or generation.


Text as a medium has several advantages rpg wise, the first and formost of 
which being that it is! possible to create a lot of randomly generating 
content, for example descripters for weapons or items simply using text 
generation, additionally, while I agree on the difficullties of providing 
full sound and audio, some sounds and background music can be added for 
effect the way games like Smugglers or indeed Kodp do it, thus creating 
something which has both a degree of complexity, and also a good atmosphere.


Entombed is actually a great example of this.

Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[goshawk on horseback]

whilst it may not be absolutely necessary, good soundscapes and voice 
acting, does improve a game quite a bit.

Simon


- Original Message - 
From: "Devin Prater" <r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do


Why would you need soundscapes and voice acting? A dark room is text, and 
does just fine. Touchmint’s games are mostly text, and do mostly fine as 
well. Nano empire is wonderful, and is text also. I’m saying that you don’t 
need expensive acting and sound do make a good game.
Sent from my Mac.

Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com



> On Apr 13, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Darren Harris 
> <darren_g_har...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have 1 thing to say about replayable games,
>
> Swamp. That's a 1 man band doing all that, look at how good a game that 
> is?
> Now have something like that on the iPhone and that would be awesome.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy 
> Brown
> Sent: 13 April 2016 18:36
> To: gamers
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do
>
> In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
> situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
> consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
> years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
> relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
> and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
> a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
> platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
> on more ambitious games.
>
> Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
> ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.
>
> I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:
>
> You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
> have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
> possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
> novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
> to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
> text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
> into account sound scape or voice acting.
>
> It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
> games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
> from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
> and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
> it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
> costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
> professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
> story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
> 10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
> they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
> over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
> the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
> like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
> not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
> in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
> list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
> can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
> is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
> moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
> people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
> games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
> game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
> programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
> hopefully profitable.
>
> As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)
>
> Take care,
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa
>
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> If you have any question

Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Jeremy Brown]

As to rpg's and replayability, I want to take issue with at least two
of your examples Dark.

Fallthru was replayable, but the essential shape of the game stayed
the same.  Once you beat it, the general plan to beat it was the same.
Some locations moved a little, but the general challenges were the
same, and while individual map features changed, the same strategies
won the game.  I think using it as an example of replayability is
somewhat misleading.

The Wastes presents the problem of having everything random.  There's
no reliability for a player to build on.  You don't ever learn the map
because the map changes game to game.  Your tactics have to change
whether you have the super overpowered weapon of death, or are
fighting with your bare fist.  I myself find that somewhat
frustrating.  It's a fun game, and I don't detract from the work put
into it by any means, but it's replayable only because you're drawing
random cards from a deck every time.

To me, designing a single person RPG with replayability would demand
some randomness of course, but you'd have to put some steady elements
in as a place to start from, or you'd lose players who don't like the
chaos factor.  For myself, I'd want alternate reactions to different
options etc for each encounter, each situation.  That's a lot of work.
A lot of planning.  I could slap together a random generator that
would produce an ok game that was replayable because of randomness,
but to me that's not an RPG.  That's the old random dungeon generator
at the back of the first ed. dmg that people would use when they
couldn't get a group together.

That said, I see some ways it could be done, but the problem would be
the time expenditure--to do it well.

As to several people commenting on cheapness or text in place of audio
etc.  I agree, one can play text games just fine, but if we're going
to do that we can go back to the old IF titles and forget a real rpg.
If you want to have real interaction you'll end up having to create a
complex interaction engine.  The reason why Eamon for instance worked
so well was that at the core of it were only about 40 commands, most
of which you never used.

As to the sounds issue: putting together a cheap game with good
sounds, music, and sound scape is difficult unless you have lots of
free time, a good recording set up, and plenty of stuff to provide
foley effect with.  For example, with Interceptor, we purchased a
number of the sounds we used.  That's another thing that must be taken
into account.

I think we need more large scale well designed RPG's but I think that
we do need to go into that expectation open eyed.  Entombed was a
decent start and it was $40.  Marty's estimate sounds high to me for
an IOS app, but it sounds reasonable as a complex Windows platform
game.  So, we can jettison everything but text, go the random shuffle
and draw approach, and produce a mildly amusing but ultimately
frustrating game, or we can invest a lot of time, effort, and work
into producing a complex game with good acting and music and sounds,
and then we have to charge more, or somehow, sell more units.

>From a developer standpoint, if you are actually trying to make a
profit, the RPG looks like a bad bet.  Now, that said, if you had 30
or 40 smaller games that could support you while you did it, it might
be doable.  If you had a consortium of small developers that could
agree on a language, a story, and delegate parts of the game
effectively, it might be produced cheaply.

Just a few thoughts as usual.  I eagerly await disagreement.

Take care,

Jeremy


-- 
In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa

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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Marty Schultz]

I would attempt an RPG based around a card game, if someone could point 
me to one.  More often than not, I search for either programming code 
for an existing game, or for extremely detailed instructions, and then 
rewrite the entire thing for the iphone.


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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[dark]

Hi Michael.


I actually see a text, or at least text and audio rpg as a much more 
possible thing and probably good for a developer because of the possible 
expantions and such available, I also think it would be very good for 
development of audiogames in general because as I said, I do get a little 
disappoited with seeing the same sorts of games.
this isn't to say there's anything wrong with what we've had, heck I played 
blindfold pinball for a good while yesterday, was very glad to buy the 
upgrade packs and completely enjoyed the game, only that I'd love to see 
something more complex available, and when I look around and consider indi 
games like! Adventure to fate, the wastes or a dark room I really see a way 
forward if people would take it, which would show that it was! possible.


All the best,

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Michael Feir]

Hi Dark. Excellent points there. You and I agree in most respects. One can 
indeed create great games without needing to incurr vast expense. I think 
there's a very real game between what's possible with one or two individuals to 
create and make accessible versus the expectations. As blind people grow more 
aware of what their sighyed counterparts are playing, they simply don't realise 
what's involved in driving the economics of production. I would absolutely love 
it if a developer created an text or audio rpg made from the ground up to be 
fully accessible. However, I think it far more likely that as with King of 
Dragon Pass, we'll be given access to a game devised for sighted players. I 
guess we'll see going forward.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 18, 2016, at 3:43 PM, dark  wrote:
> 
> Hi Michael.
> 
> I disagree on costs there.
> You can use mostly text for the interface with some sound effects, and use 
> the mechanics of the game to create replay. Look at the way dos rpgs did it, 
> games like fallthru, and more recently a dark room, not to mention the 
> wastes, heck the wastes random generation system is so extreme your unlikely 
> to see the same object or location in two different games.
> Plus, those sorts of games could potentially be far more expandable with new 
> items, quests etc, simply by tweaking the properties and descriptions of 
> certain items, and thus can create far morr prophet through in game sales. 
> Online games manage it all the time with a lot of free players, the principle 
> difference being those are not as focused on story or single player 
> experience as opposed to beating up other people online, though if a 
> developer did it wouldn't be a problem.
> 
> King of dragon pass is hugely complex and took a lot of work and is a massive 
> achievement, but nobody says every rpg needs to be like that, look at some of 
> the tabletop games like talisman which are currently available, or look at 
> how well a simple game like nano empire which had progress, description etc 
> worked, heck the developer of nano empire could easily expand the game quite 
> a bit just using the same framework he created.
> 
> I must confess this is one thing that frustrates me a little. There are indi 
> devs out there creating graphical rpg games. Kings quest, atic adventures 
> etc, just check the ap store and you'll find hundreds.
> 
> Yet whenever someone says an accessible rpg designed for blind people it's 
> "oh no, the cost is too much, stick to the same sorts of games we've had 
> before"
> 
> This isn't to say there's anything wrong with traditional or arcade style 
> games, I just find it considerably frustrating that there isn't more 
> available.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Dark. 
> 
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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[dark]

Hmmm, Charlse, my point wasn't about platforms, it was that we've been 
seeing the same sorts of games again and again on different platforms, even 
though technology has supposedly improved.


All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Rivard" <wee1s...@fidnet.com>

To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do


To my way of thinking, the more platforms a game is available on, the 
better.  I'm not sure where you're coming up with the fact that the games 
are from the days of DOS, other than the fact that they use text, which is 
what an RPG uses, right?  If that is so, then a game from the days of DOS 
isn't such a bad idea, seeing as this is what you want.





If you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished!!
-Original Message- 
From: dark

Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:04 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

I agree.

Alsoo as I said, building an rpg doesn't take as long as you would think,
heck most of the mechanics as I've said are basic dice ones.


I also suspect an rpg would necessarily sell more copies sinse it is a 
type
of game not available elsewherein the community, while we have a huge 
amount

of traditional and word games, plus of course, rpgs are far more open to
expanttion, not to mention being far more likely to be bought by the 
sighted

public (nano empire and a dark room both did hugely well).

I do like what's been done thus far, but I m finding it a little 
frustrating
that we're still seeing roughly the same amount of complexity from 
dedicated
developers of games intended for blind people we were seeing ten years 
ago,

or heck back to the dos days.

All the best,

Dark.


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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6189 / Virus Database: 4556/12058 - Release Date: 04/18/16




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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[dark]

Hi Michael.

I disagree on costs there.
You can use mostly text for the interface with some sound effects, and use 
the mechanics of the game to create replay. Look at the way dos rpgs did it, 
games like fallthru, and more recently a dark room, not to mention the 
wastes, heck the wastes random generation system is so extreme your unlikely 
to see the same object or location in two different games.
Plus, those sorts of games could potentially be far more expandable with new 
items, quests etc, simply by tweaking the properties and descriptions of 
certain items, and thus can create far morr prophet through in game sales. 
Online games manage it all the time with a lot of free players, the 
principle difference being those are not as focused on story or single 
player experience as opposed to beating up other people online, though if a 
developer did it wouldn't be a problem.


King of dragon pass is hugely complex and took a lot of work and is a 
massive achievement, but nobody says every rpg needs to be like that, look 
at some of the tabletop games like talisman which are currently available, 
or look at how well a simple game like nano empire which had progress, 
description etc worked, heck the developer of nano empire could easily 
expand the game quite a bit just using the same framework he created.


I must confess this is one thing that frustrates me a little. There are indi 
devs out there creating graphical rpg games. Kings quest, atic adventures 
etc, just check the ap store and you'll find hundreds.


Yet whenever someone says an accessible rpg designed for blind people it's 
"oh no, the cost is too much, stick to the same sorts of games we've had 
before"


This isn't to say there's anything wrong with traditional or arcade style 
games, I just find it considerably frustrating that there isn't more 
available.


All the best,

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Bryan Peterson]

It depends on the game. RPG's don't always use text only.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 18, 2016, at 10:21 AM, Charles Rivard <wee1s...@fidnet.com> wrote:
> 
> To my way of thinking, the more platforms a game is available on, the better. 
>  I'm not sure where you're coming up with the fact that the games are from 
> the days of DOS, other than the fact that they use text, which is what an RPG 
> uses, right?  If that is so, then a game from the days of DOS isn't such a 
> bad idea, seeing as this is what you want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished!!
> -Original Message- From: dark
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:04 AM
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do
> 
> I agree.
> 
> Alsoo as I said, building an rpg doesn't take as long as you would think,
> heck most of the mechanics as I've said are basic dice ones.
> 
> 
> I also suspect an rpg would necessarily sell more copies sinse it is a type
> of game not available elsewherein the community, while we have a huge amount
> of traditional and word games, plus of course, rpgs are far more open to
> expanttion, not to mention being far more likely to be bought by the sighted
> public (nano empire and a dark room both did hugely well).
> 
> I do like what's been done thus far, but I m finding it a little frustrating
> that we're still seeing roughly the same amount of complexity from dedicated
> developers of games intended for blind people we were seeing ten years ago,
> or heck back to the dos days.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Dark.
> 
> 
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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Charles Rivard]

To my way of thinking, the more platforms a game is available on, the 
better.  I'm not sure where you're coming up with the fact that the games 
are from the days of DOS, other than the fact that they use text, which is 
what an RPG uses, right?  If that is so, then a game from the days of DOS 
isn't such a bad idea, seeing as this is what you want.





If you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished!!
-Original Message- 
From: dark

Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 11:04 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

I agree.

Alsoo as I said, building an rpg doesn't take as long as you would think,
heck most of the mechanics as I've said are basic dice ones.


I also suspect an rpg would necessarily sell more copies sinse it is a type
of game not available elsewherein the community, while we have a huge amount
of traditional and word games, plus of course, rpgs are far more open to
expanttion, not to mention being far more likely to be bought by the sighted
public (nano empire and a dark room both did hugely well).

I do like what's been done thus far, but I m finding it a little frustrating
that we're still seeing roughly the same amount of complexity from dedicated
developers of games intended for blind people we were seeing ten years ago,
or heck back to the dos days.

All the best,

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[john]

Dealing with hackers is development time, very much development time indeed. 
Its just writing a lot of security code, and not game mechanics code.

--
From: "dark" <d...@xgam.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 12:07
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

Actually Kennith, Swamp wasn't in development that long.

From the initial very simple offline version to the first multiplayer server
took roughly two months, and in four everything was up and running.
yes, there's been massive expantions with maps and weapons and accounts and
what not, and yes hacker trouble, but don't mistake that for the development
time, had aprone been charging for the game earlier he could've been earning
money on it pretty dam soon.

all the best,

dark.
- Original Message - 
From: "Kenneth Downey" <kenwdow...@me.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do


> Yes, but think about how many years Swauk was in development… And it was a
> free game… For a long time anyway, until stupid hackers started messing
> everything up… Can you imagine swab for the iPhone! Anyway, it's back to
> blindfold pinball for me now… I'm addicted!
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Apr 14, 2016, at 6:56 AM, Devin Prater <r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why would you need soundscapes and voice acting? A dark room is text, and
>> does just fine. Touchmint’s games are mostly text, and do mostly fine as
>> well. Nano empire is wonderful, and is text also. I’m saying that you don’t
>> need expensive acting and sound do make a good game.
>> Sent from my Mac.
>>
>> Devin Prater
>> r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Darren Harris
>>> <darren_g_har...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have 1 thing to say about replayable games,
>>>
>>> Swamp. That's a 1 man band doing all that, look at how good a game that
>>> is?
>>> Now have something like that on the iPhone and that would be awesome.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy
>>> Brown
>>> Sent: 13 April 2016 18:36
>>> To: gamers
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do
>>>
>>> In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
>>> situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
>>> consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
>>> years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
>>> relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
>>> and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
>>> a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
>>> platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
>>> on more ambitious games.
>>>
>>> Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
>>> ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.
>>>
>>> I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:
>>>
>>> You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
>>> have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
>>> possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
>>> novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
>>> to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
>>> text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
>>> into account sound scape or voice acting.
>>>
>>> It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
>>> games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
>>> from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
>>> and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
>>> it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
>>> costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
>>> professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
>>> story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
>>> 10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
>>> they mention thi

Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Michael Feir]

In Marty's cost breakdown, he didn't even bring in voice acting and
sound effects. That's just for his efforts making the game so he feels
propperly compensated. To create an rpg takes a whole lot of careful
thought. Writing a scifi, fantasy or mystery story capable of
branching and changing based on the player's actions is hard work and
takes time. Add to that programming and then balancing the system.
Very few individuals would have all the necessary skills to pull this
off well That's why most high-quality rpgs are made by companies
employing many people.

I'd cheerfully fork over $10 for something with the replayability of
King of Dragon Pass even without fancy sound and music. Even that game
had an artist, a music composer, and others involved in its creation.
It was based on an already fully developed world and rpg system.
However, at the level Marty is asking, $40 or $50, my expectations are
very high. The game had better be fully accessible, have music, acting
and sound, offer tremendous replay value. It had better be the holy
grail of games. I'd want extras like a "making of" documentary. After
I paid that much, don't even think about charging a subscription or
microtransactions. It had all better be included. That would be the
second most expensive app I've ever bought. The only thing more
expensive that I'm aware of is KNFB Reader. That app has literally
life-changing possibility and is something I used almost daily to read
my mail. I can look at it as a long-term investment making it
unnecessary to ever update Kurzweil 1000 or buy an OCR scanner. As
long as I have an iPHONE, I'm covered. If I'm going to spend that much
on entertainment, it had better be very polished and very captivating.

The most expensive games I find in the sighted world top out at around
$25 or so. I don't think I've ever come across a game priced higher.
Some games offer the ability to buy expansions and other extra content
in order to help support their production cost. That model certainly
seems to work for companies. Those companies can expect far more
people to purchase what they produce. Especially the ones with good
track records.

On 4/14/16, Devin Prater <r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why would you need soundscapes and voice acting? A dark room is text, and
> does just fine. Touchmint’s games are mostly text, and do mostly fine as
> well. Nano empire is wonderful, and is text also. I’m saying that you don’t
> need expensive acting and sound do make a good game.
> Sent from my Mac.
>
> Devin Prater
> r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Darren Harris
>> <darren_g_har...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have 1 thing to say about replayable games,
>>
>> Swamp. That's a 1 man band doing all that, look at how good a game that
>> is?
>> Now have something like that on the iPhone and that would be awesome.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy
>> Brown
>> Sent: 13 April 2016 18:36
>> To: gamers
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do
>>
>> In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
>> situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
>> consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
>> years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
>> relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
>> and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
>> a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
>> platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
>> on more ambitious games.
>>
>> Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
>> ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.
>>
>> I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:
>>
>> You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
>> have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
>> possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
>> novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
>> to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
>> text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
>> into account sound scape or voice acting.
>>
>> It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
>> games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
>> from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
>> and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a

Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[dark]

Actually Kennith, Swamp wasn't in development that long.

From the initial very simple offline version to the first multiplayer server 
took roughly two months, and in four everything was up and running.
yes, there's been massive expantions with maps and weapons and accounts and 
what not, and yes hacker trouble, but don't mistake that for the development 
time, had aprone been charging for the game earlier he could've been earning 
money on it pretty dam soon.


all the best,

dark.
- Original Message - 
From: "Kenneth Downey" <kenwdow...@me.com>

To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do


Yes, but think about how many years Swauk was in development… And it was a 
free game… For a long time anyway, until stupid hackers started messing 
everything up… Can you imagine swab for the iPhone! Anyway, it's back to 
blindfold pinball for me now… I'm addicted!


Sent from my iPad


On Apr 14, 2016, at 6:56 AM, Devin Prater <r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why would you need soundscapes and voice acting? A dark room is text, and 
does just fine. Touchmint’s games are mostly text, and do mostly fine as 
well. Nano empire is wonderful, and is text also. I’m saying that you don’t 
need expensive acting and sound do make a good game.

Sent from my Mac.

Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com



On Apr 13, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Darren Harris 
<darren_g_har...@btinternet.com> wrote:


Hi,

I have 1 thing to say about replayable games,

Swamp. That's a 1 man band doing all that, look at how good a game that 
is?

Now have something like that on the iPhone and that would be awesome.

-Original Message-
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy 
Brown

Sent: 13 April 2016 18:36
To: gamers
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
on more ambitious games.

Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.

I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:

You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
into account sound scape or voice acting.

It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
hopefully profitable.

As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)

Take care,

Jeremy




--
In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to le

Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[dark]

I agree.

Alsoo as I said, building an rpg doesn't take as long as you would think, 
heck most of the mechanics as I've said are basic dice ones.



I also suspect an rpg would necessarily sell more copies sinse it is a type 
of game not available elsewherein the community, while we have a huge amount 
of traditional and word games, plus of course, rpgs are far more open to 
expanttion, not to mention being far more likely to be bought by the sighted 
public (nano empire and a dark room both did hugely well).


I do like what's been done thus far, but I m finding it a little frustrating 
that we're still seeing roughly the same amount of complexity from dedicated 
developers of games intended for blind people we were seeing ten years ago, 
or heck back to the dos days.


All the best,

Dark. 



---
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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Kenneth Downey]

Yes, but think about how many years Swauk was in development… And it was a free 
game… For a long time anyway, until stupid hackers started messing everything 
up… Can you imagine swab for the iPhone! Anyway, it's back to blindfold pinball 
for me now… I'm addicted!

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 14, 2016, at 6:56 AM, Devin Prater <r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Why would you need soundscapes and voice acting? A dark room is text, and 
> does just fine. Touchmint’s games are mostly text, and do mostly fine as 
> well. Nano empire is wonderful, and is text also. I’m saying that you don’t 
> need expensive acting and sound do make a good game.
> Sent from my Mac.
> 
> Devin Prater
> r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Darren Harris <darren_g_har...@btinternet.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I have 1 thing to say about replayable games,
>> 
>> Swamp. That's a 1 man band doing all that, look at how good a game that is?
>> Now have something like that on the iPhone and that would be awesome.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Brown
>> Sent: 13 April 2016 18:36
>> To: gamers
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do
>> 
>> In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
>> situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
>> consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
>> years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
>> relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
>> and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
>> a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
>> platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
>> on more ambitious games.
>> 
>> Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
>> ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.
>> 
>> I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:
>> 
>> You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
>> have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
>> possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
>> novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
>> to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
>> text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
>> into account sound scape or voice acting.
>> 
>> It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
>> games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
>> from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
>> and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
>> it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
>> costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
>> professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
>> story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
>> 10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
>> they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
>> over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
>> the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
>> like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
>> not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
>> in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
>> list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
>> can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
>> is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
>> moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
>> people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
>> games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
>> game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
>> programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
>> hopefully profitable.
>> 
>> As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)
>> 
>> Take care,
>> 
>> Jeremy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa
>> 
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org

Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Devin Prater]

Why would you need soundscapes and voice acting? A dark room is text, and does 
just fine. Touchmint’s games are mostly text, and do mostly fine as well. Nano 
empire is wonderful, and is text also. I’m saying that you don’t need expensive 
acting and sound do make a good game.
Sent from my Mac.

Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com



> On Apr 13, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Darren Harris <darren_g_har...@btinternet.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have 1 thing to say about replayable games,
> 
> Swamp. That's a 1 man band doing all that, look at how good a game that is?
> Now have something like that on the iPhone and that would be awesome.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Brown
> Sent: 13 April 2016 18:36
> To: gamers
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do
> 
> In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
> situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
> consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
> years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
> relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
> and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
> a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
> platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
> on more ambitious games.
> 
> Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
> ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.
> 
> I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:
> 
> You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
> have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
> possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
> novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
> to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
> text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
> into account sound scape or voice acting.
> 
> It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
> games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
> from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
> and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
> it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
> costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
> professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
> story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
> 10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
> they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
> over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
> the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
> like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
> not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
> in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
> list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
> can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
> is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
> moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
> people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
> games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
> game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
> programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
> hopefully profitable.
> 
> As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Jeremy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa
> 
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
> 
> 
> ---
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> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_aud

Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Darren Harris]

Hi,

I have 1 thing to say about replayable games,

Swamp. That's a 1 man band doing all that, look at how good a game that is?
Now have something like that on the iPhone and that would be awesome.

-Original Message-
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Brown
Sent: 13 April 2016 18:36
To: gamers
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
on more ambitious games.

Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.

I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:

You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
into account sound scape or voice acting.

It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
hopefully profitable.

As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)

Take care,

Jeremy




-- 
In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


---
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.

Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Justin Jones]

Torchlight would like a word with you, vis-a-vis complex games
released for cheap.

On 4/13/16, Jeremy Brown  wrote:
> In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
> situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
> consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
> years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
> relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
> and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
> a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
> platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
> on more ambitious games.
>
> Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
> ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.
>
> I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:
>
> You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
> have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
> possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
> novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
> to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
> text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
> into account sound scape or voice acting.
>
> It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
> games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
> from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
> and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
> it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
> costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
> professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
> story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
> 10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
> they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
> over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
> the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
> like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
> not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
> in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
> list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
> can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
> is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
> moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
> people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
> games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
> game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
> programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
> hopefully profitable.
>
> As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)
>
> Take care,
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
> --
> In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
>


-- 
Justin M. Jones, M.A.
atreides...@gmail.com
(254) 624-9155
701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802

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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

[Jeremy Brown]

In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
on more ambitious games.

Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.

I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:

You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
into account sound scape or voice acting.

It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
hopefully profitable.

As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)

Take care,

Jeremy




-- 
In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa

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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.