Re: Borland, Fujitsu, HP, IONA, Nokia, and Oracle voted with Suntolock Open Source out of Java.
Kevin A. Burton wrote: The big companies (Microsoft, IBM, SUN, etc) have been the ones creating the standards. IETF, JCP, W3C, etc are all good examples. Actually I think the IETF is the exception, which is why I think it could be a good starting point if people wanted to do their own standards. I've just finished working on this draft: http://ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tls-ciphersuite-06.txt I don't work for a big company, and we don't have any direct interest in this draft. I just wrote it because it seemed like an interesting thing to do. It took a long time but it is now approved and is waiting for the RFC Editor to get round to publishing it. If anything it helped that I wasn't from a big company because I wasn't pushing any particular agenda. It would be interesting to see if the Open Source process could work for *creating* standards. At the very minimum it woul be interesting... Exactly. Open source produces high quality software, but too often it is just a free clone of something commercial. Of course some open source projects do take the lead, but it would be nice to see this happening to a greater extent. -- Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Borland, Fujitsu, HP, IONA, Nokia, and Oracle voted with Suntolock Open Source out of Java.
Peter Donald wrote: Hell no. Look at all the pety bitching and moaning that goes on now - definetly not conducive to standards bodys which are meant to define specifications via which multiple groups can compete on implementations. You obviously haven't subscribed to any IETF mailing lists! :-) There is all the petty bitching and moaning you could want... -- Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Micro JakartaOne
I am sorry to hear about the cancellation. Nevertheless, I would appreciate very much if you could have our attendee from Japan, Ms. HARADA, Yoko join you at the restaurant meeting. I hope you will have a great time during the meeting and looking forward to hearing more about the details of it. Best regards. -- Yoshi (TANAKA Yoshihiro) Nihon Intersystems Co. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Micro JakartaOne
On 3/15/02 8:11 AM, TANAKA Yoshihiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sorry to hear about the cancellation. Nevertheless, I would appreciate very much if you could have our attendee from Japan, Ms. HARADA, Yoko join you at the restaurant meeting. We would be very happy to have her attend. I hope you will have a great time during the meeting and looking forward to hearing more about the details of it. I hope we can get this together - how hard can this be :) Any suggestions for a good restaurant anyone? -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Java : the speed of Smalltalk with the simple elegance of C++... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: License issue (the come back)
Ainsi parlait Santiago Gala : [..] FYI: Some time ago, I was forbidden to download a java package because my ISP did not have reverse DNS address mapping properly setup, even though I'm in Spain, not a free world enemy, AFAIK. The message I got was something like we could not assess your origin country satisfactorily, consult technical support. So, Sun is/was using technical mappings between IP block ownership and country to enforce such provisions. I don't know the current status. I had to ssh to a machine that was granted the permission, download from there, and then put it in my machine from there. I was not breaking any law, since I'm allowed to download it. In a sense, they do the following: if the machine used to download the code is in an allowed country, it is not considered export, so they allow it, and transfer the export responsibility further down the chain. (sorry for this late answer) I know they use such kind of filtering based on your domain name. It also means just using a private indirection, as you did, or public redirect service as anonymiser.com bypass it easily. So we can say that Sun attempts to fulfill this clause, but not that they actually comply to. We could also have a banner saying if you're a evil guy (as defined by US state department), please do not click here with the same efficiency. -- Guillaume Rousse [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key http://lis.snv.jussieu.fr/~rousse/gpgkey.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: License issue (the come back)
-Original Message- From: Guillaume Rousse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [...] I know they use such kind of filtering based on your domain name. It also means just using a private indirection, as you did, or public redirect service as anonymiser.com bypass it easily. So we can say that Sun attempts to fulfill this clause, but not that they actually comply to. We could also have a banner saying if you're a evil guy (as defined by US state department), please do not click here with the same efficiency. That did not prevent a French tribunal to stupidely force Yahoo to do such filtering on french ips so that people could not see Nazi related items in auctions even though this is absolutely impossible to comply with this (what about aol users ? and others from company with a host located out of france ?, etc...) Yahoo was supposed to be fine $91,000 per day of violation. Not sure what is the status of this crap though but even if this is on, it would be piece of cake to bypass it. There was even an audition of Vinton Cerf which states the following in the report: It has been proposed that users identify where they are at the request of the web server, such as the one(s) serving yahoo.fr - or yahoo.com. There are several potential problems with this approach. For one thing, users can choose to lie about their locations. For another, every user of the web site would have to be asked to identify his or her location since the web server would have no way to determine a priori whether the user is French or is using the Internet from a French location. Some users consider such questions to be an invasion of privacy. While I am not completely acquainted with privacy provisions in the Europe Union, it might be considered a violation of the rights of privacy of European users, including French users to request this in formation. Of course if this information is required solely because of the French Court Order, one might wonder on what grounds all other users all over the world are required to comply. Another complaint about the idea of asking user for their location in that this might have to be done repeatedly by each web site that the user accesses - yahoo cannot force every web site to make this request. When a user first contacts the server(s) at yahoo.fr - or yahoo.com, one might imagine that the question of geographic location might be asked and then a piece of data called a cookie might be stored one the user's computer disk. Repeated visits to Yahoo sites might then refer to this cookie for user location information. The problem with this idea is that cookies are considered by many to be an invasion of privacy also, as a result many users either configure browsers to reject storage of cookies on their disk drives or they clear them away after each session on the Internet - thus forcing the query about geographical location each time the user encounters a Yahoo-controlled web site. Again, Yahoo would have no way to force a web site net under its control to either ask the location question or to request a copy of the cookie containing the location. Indeed, it would open up a vulnerability for each user if arbitrary web sites were told how to retrieve the cookie placed there by the Yahoo sites. It has been suggested that the filtering need only apply to users accessing the Internet from French Territories or by users who are French citizens. It is not clear whether the jurisdiction of the French Court extends to actions taken by French citizens who are not in French territory at the time of their access to Internet. For these and many other reasons, it does not appear to be very feasible to rely on discovering the geographic location of users for purposes of imposing filtering of the kind described in the Court Order. [...] report here: http://www.lapres.net/html/ya2011.html Stephane -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: License issue (the come back)
Ainsi parlait [EMAIL PROTECTED] : On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, GOMEZ Henri wrote: Ok, I didn't know that - and I bet many other people are in the same situation. If anyone can confirm this with a professional, then I think it should be displayed pretty clearly on a visible page, and we should find alternative open standards to use. jpackage need this kind of information to determine what could be freely present in its rpm distribution and what should be dropped. Yes, and it's important to find out which packages are indeed based on open standards and remove the others imediately. Not only because it's required by the licence, but because packaging them might get people to use them, and that's bad. That what we initially attempted to do , provide only free software, but we had to quickly adopt a less strict policy in order to have something to package... If a package is based on an open standard and a clean room implementation exists and is comparable with the reference and has better license - I think the choice should be clear too. Sure, but that choice depends of developpers, not of packagers... And the current question is: what to do when no alternative exists ? From current discussion, it seems everyone agrees main problem comes from BCL itself, and not additional software-specific clauses. There are actually two problems: 1) the bundled as part of your software clause 2) the US export laws compliance clause My personal understanding of the BCL allows me to consider distributing javamail in its own package ad part of a whole distribution project comply with 1). And the technical issue of 2) make me thinks it is pointless anyway. Now if someone can demonstrate me i'm wrong in either of those points, i'd be happy to revert to our old practice of distributing spec files only, and let final users build their own packages themselves. -- Guillaume Rousse [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key http://lis.snv.jussieu.fr/~rousse/gpgkey.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: License issue (the come back)
On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:05:41 0100 Guillaume Rousse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you break US law while in France without breaking any French laws and no US laws covered by extradition treaties, I don't think you care unless you enter the US physically (and have ticked off someone enough to notice). I also don't think a license can bind you to follow US law. Moot point for me, but maybe not for others. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Borland, Fujitsu, HP, IONA, Nokia, and Oracle voted with Suntolock Open Source out of Java.
Kevin A. Burton wrote: The big companies (Microsoft, IBM, SUN, etc) have been the ones creating the standards. IETF, JCP, W3C, etc are all good examples. I think you are a bit confused by the fact that everything a company does is claimed to be 'standard, high quality, reliable, secure' ( by the company that creates it - the competition claims the reverse, they are the real 'standard' ones ). The important standards like HTTP, HTML, TCP/IP were created in university/research environment, with an eventual corporation playing a marginal role. Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Micro JakartaOne
on 3/15/02 5:18 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any suggestions for a good restaurant anyone? There are a bazillion good restaurants in SF. You just pick the style of food you want and I can list off about 100 for each style. Also, I'm still willing to show people the club, even if we aren't doing anything... -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
