RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Micael Padraig Og mac Grene]

Are you just talking about creating a new language, or what?  What is your 
idea?  I cannot tell.

At 12:38 PM 1/31/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Amusingly enough, I've been considering writing an article with this
>exact same title.  I've implemented two medium-sized systems using EJBs
>(http://www.similarity.com and http://mav.sourceforge.net/pig) and I've
>been haunting the ejb-interest list for more than a year.  I was never
>ecstatic about the technology, but now I'm starting to feel downright
>disillusioned with it.
>Ok, enough whining.  What to do about it?  I really like the idea of an
>Apache community building a truly free competitor to J2EE.  I don't like
>being tied to technologies owned by a single company, so I'm already
>pretty nervous by the stranglehold that Sun has on Java and (especially)
>J2EE.  But it's not enough to build a marginal improvement over the
>existing system, even with Apache's mindshare.  Besides, who wants to
>copy a mediocre idea? :-)






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O'Reilly Open Source Convention Call For Speakers

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RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Jeff Schnitzer]

Amusingly enough, I've been considering writing an article with this
exact same title.  I've implemented two medium-sized systems using EJBs
(http://www.similarity.com and http://mav.sourceforge.net/pig) and I've
been haunting the ejb-interest list for more than a year.  I was never
ecstatic about the technology, but now I'm starting to feel downright
disillusioned with it.

This is not coming from someone stumbling around with the technology.
The first thing I did was read Richard Monson-Haefel's book
cover-to-cover, and I started with EJB2.0 (pd1) when Orion was the only
implementation.  I've got most of the 2.0 spec memorized.  I have no
trouble writing the deployment descriptors by hand.

The problem is, even after more than a year of this, I still find that
writing software using EJBs is a steady progress of fighting the
technology to make it do what you want.  It shouldn't be like this.

Having to write three or four different classes, plus an elaborate
deployment descriptor for each object slows things down a bit.  Tools
like xdoclet help, but it's still a complicated and painful process to
refactor anything.

Basic software design patterns are agonizing or impossible to implement.
Observable?  Time to learn JMS and Message-Driven Beans.  Singleton?
Not in the framework... you have to set up an external RMI server.

Presistance in the EJBland is a disappointment.  Even with EJB 2.0,
entity beans are not remotely mature.  There is no support for
relationship attributes or automatically generated primary keys.  The
query language is constrictive, offering no support for ordering,
aggregation functions, or retrieving data which spans more than a single
class.  After 20+ years of research and advancement in RDBMS technology,
this is a colossal step backwards, and the consequence is that entity
beans radically underperform systems with more direct database access.
I find that I must constantly sidestep the container with direct JDBC in
order to meet performance or feature requirements, and it sounds like
this is a common problem.

Overall, my feeling is that Sun tried to cram too many disparate
technologies into a single API.  EJB!  It's a distributed object model,
transaction model, security model, persistence model, component model,
message queue, desert topping, and floor wax all rolled into one!  Some
of it makes sense, but some of it (especially persistence) doesn't.

I'm surprised that people can build large applications with EJB.  My
guess is that it's probably very effective for one particular class of
problem - ecommerce apps.  I'm sure it's no accident that all the
examples in the spec are Order, LineItem, etc.  Unfortunately, this
doesn't help me, or any of the rest of the people who are working on
applications that are actually interesting.  And my guess is that since
ecommerce is 90% of the market for expensive app servers, Sun doesn't
really care.


Ok, enough whining.  What to do about it?  I really like the idea of an
Apache community building a truly free competitor to J2EE.  I don't like
being tied to technologies owned by a single company, so I'm already
pretty nervous by the stranglehold that Sun has on Java and (especially)
J2EE.  But it's not enough to build a marginal improvement over the
existing system, even with Apache's mindshare.  Besides, who wants to
copy a mediocre idea? :-)

I've been giving a lot of thought to distributed object models lately.
I've worked with DCOM, CORBA, RMI, and EJB, and for the most part it's a
lot of the same.  Since networks are getting so fast these days, I'm
starting to really wonder what it would be like to have a model in
which:

* All objects are inherently remotable.
* Objects transparently migrate for efficiency.

I can think of many interesting, fairly revolutionary consequences of
such a system and I'd love to discuss them.  Ultimately, if such a
system ever made it out of research and into prototype, it could
challenge both Java and .NET, and possibly stave off the coming hegemony
of the Sun/Microsoft duopoly.  (Yeah, yeah, there will always be people
who enjoy working on nonvirtual machines, but they're crazy :-)

Does anyone think some variant of this idea to be worth pursuing?  Or is
everyone wedded to the idea of working on the proprietary Sun platform
known as Java?

Jeff Schnitzer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

[Andrew C. Oliver]

That's awesome, I'll check that out!

On Thu, 2002-01-31 at 13:11, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 5:58 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 19:54, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > > on 2002.1.30 4:15 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it 
> > > > doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can 
> > you give me 
> > > > a good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that 
> > effect.  It 
> > > > just seems like we should be asking for something and being 
> > > > specific.
> > > > 
> > > > -Andy
> > > 
> > > That is a very good point. However, privately, Sun knows 
> > exactly what 
> > > we want.
> > > 
> > > There is still some stuff that goes on behind the scenes 
> > around here 
> > > that unfortunately isn't exposed. Needless to say, 
> > discussions about 
> > > opening some of that up (including posting what we want to 
> > the public 
> > > site) are going on now.
> > > 
> > 
> > For starters:
> > I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same 
> > license as the rest of the JDK.
> > 
> > Personally I'm having a hard time getting particularly in 
> > uproar as I think the central core of J2EE - Enterprise Java 
> > Beans is such a poor standard, that I'm not particularly 
> > upset that its not *free*.  I should not say these things 
> > publicly, as I still have to work in these things, but in 
> > truth EJB and particularly Entity beans is a less that 
> > elegant kludge.  
> > 
> > In truth J2EE is kind of a scam.  It claims to be aiming for 
> > compatibility and universality but the truth is the vendors 
> > play too big of a role in it.  They want to have lots of room 
> > for proprietary extensions.  Its market one thing but 
> > actually sell another.
> > 
> > I'd rather see someone come up with an opensource standard 
> > that achieves the goals of EJBs without being limited by its 
> > faulty design and backward compatibility with its original 
> > faultier design.  Just my humble opinion on that.
> 
> Check out AJB in Avalon.
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-apps-dev&m=101158982807771&w=2
> 
> Uses AltRMI from the Commons to achieve RMI with extending Remote or
> throwing remote exception.  Now you can publish any class/interface
> remotely...
> 
> Cheers,
> Scott
> 
> 
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RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Albeit at the expense of scalability

On Thu, 2002-01-31 at 09:51, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> I think that the key bit is:
>  > and it is a mistake to try to program 
>  > as though a
>  > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.
> 
> Your app will always be more robust if you do NOT ignore the
> specific issues of a remote call.
> 
> 
> Have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:50 PM
> > To: 'Jakarta General List'
> > Subject: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Tim.
> > 
> > I agree with your point of view, we've been trying to avoid EJBs 
> > as much as
> > possible. But there's one thing I don't understand.
> > 
> > > -Mensaje original-
> > > De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation 
> > > techniques
> > > would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent, 
> > > instead of
> > > requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But 
> > > personally, I think RPC
> > > is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program 
> > > as though a
> > > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.
> > 
> > Why is it a mistake? I think a remote proxy is a great way to make remote
> > calls, shielding the developer from the complexity of it all. The recent
> > discussion about AltRMI has shown that there's a lot of interest in using
> > proxies, but it was Sun's implementation (the Remote* stuff) that was
> > flawed.
> > 
> > Un saludo,
> > 
> > Alex.
> > 
> 
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


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Re: PMC Nomination - Ted Husted

[Martin Cooper]

I'll second that nomination, for all the same reasons.

--
Martin Cooper


- Original Message -
From: "Morgan Delagrange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General Jakarta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:28 AM
Subject: PMC Nomination - Ted Husted


> I would like to nominate Ted Husted for re-election to the PMC.
>
> Ted has a strong (and active) committment to documentation, probably the
> most often neglected component of any project.  He also was a driving
force
> in the Commons project; it's unlikely that the Commons would have been so
> successful in its first year if it weren't for Ted's influence.  Finally,
he
> may have the most level head in Jakarta.  That's a big plus.
>
> - Morgan Delagrange
>
>
>
> _
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
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Re: PMC Nomination

[Daniel Rall]

Stefano Mazzocchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I would like to nominate
>
>  - Jon Stevens
>  - Sam Ruby
>
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
>
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.

+1 for both of the old dogs.

Dan

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Re: J2EE considered harmful (was [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml])

[Daniel Rall]

Tim, BRAVO.

Daniel

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Re: PMC Nomination - Ceki Gulcu

[Daniel Rall]

"Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I nominate Ceki Gulku to be a candidate for the PMC election.
>
> Ceki is the force of nature behind log4j, a member of the ASF, until
> recently a member of the PMC, and one who I find is generally clear thinking
> and fair when it comes to open source development and community issues.
>
> Of course, his debates with Peter are something else entirely... :)

Ceki will make an excellent PMC member, +1.

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RE: PMC Nomination

[Paulo Gaspar]

...and this for both Sam and Jon:
+1

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:28 PM
> To: Apache Jakarta
> Subject: PMC Nomination
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate
> 
>  - Jon Stevens
>  - Sam Ruby
> 
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
> 
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.
> 
> Sure, they have diametrically different styles and attitudes, but this
> the reason why I want to nominate both at the same time: they balance
> out since they listen to each other and, deep down below, they share the
> very same feelings about what apache is.
> 
> If somebody has to decide where jakarta is going, I'd like having them
> decide for me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: PMC Nomination

[Paulo Gaspar]

...and this:
+1

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Bojan Smojver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:31 AM
> To: Jakarta General
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Geir Magnusson Jr. for the PMC.
> 
> Geir is current PMC member. His dedication to Jakarta projects,
> especially Velocity, is undoubted. His support levels on Velocity
> project are unsurpassed, with response times in minutes. He is always
> open to suggestions by other developers (and non-developers) and is
> willing to sacrifice a lot of his own time to improve the projects he is
> working on. His recent contribution of DVSL to Velocity only confirms
> the above.
> 
> Bojan
> 
> 
> --
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RE: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ok, it seems that now I can do this:
+1

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 7:36 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
> 
> Who I am:
> 
> I am a developer with 10 years of experience.  I got my first taste of
> Open Source Software with JServ 0.9, and helped (albeit very little)
> with Jserv as a lurker/non-committer.  I use/have used Apache products
> everyday in my development of various projects.  My current focus is on
> building the Commons community to have a large library of reusable
> components for my own development work.  I am also working on a proposal
> for the re-birth of Alexandria, and have some thoughts on how to make
> James an 'Exchange Killer'.  I am not being paid to work at jakarta, and
> I am happy to help build the community.
> 
> What I want to accomplish:
> 
> Jon, Sam, and Stefano are my open source 'idols'.  I respect what each
> of them have done for Jakarta and Apache as a whole.  I would like to
> follow in the gigantic footsteps of Sam in helping to increase
> inter-project communication and cooperation.  This can only help to
> increase the Apache community in general, and the Jakarta community
> specifically.  I would also like to continue Sam's work in the
> cooperation with the xml.apache.org community.  Part of the community
> building is having some way of finding code within Apache.
> 
> I look forward to helping improve the jakarta community,
> Scott Sanders
> 
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Re: PMC Nomination - Jason van Zyl

[Jason van Zyl]

On 1/31/02 5:00 PM, "Kurt Schrader" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I would like to nominate Jason Van Zyl for the PMC.  Jason is a current
> PMC member, is a (very) active Turbine developer, founded the Velocity
> project, has participated in any number of Jakarta projects, and strikes
> me as an overall a great guy.  He is also the type of person that
> lets his actions (with regards to consistently supporting users while
> still outputting a massive amount of code) speak louder than his words,
> and I think that we can always use a few more people like that around here.
> 

Thanks, but I have to decline. My commitment to Tambora takes precedence so
I honestly won't have much time for Jakarta.

Geir has also agreed to take over my current cvs admin responsibilities. So
anyone who has made requests from me for cvs access can now ask Geir.

-- 

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons



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PMC Nomination - Ceki Gulcu

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

I nominate Ceki Gulku to be a candidate for the PMC election.

Ceki is the force of nature behind log4j, a member of the ASF, until
recently a member of the PMC, and one who I find is generally clear thinking
and fair when it comes to open source development and community issues.

Of course, his debates with Peter are something else entirely... :)

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting


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Re: PMC Nomination - Peter Donald

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/31/02 4:16 PM, "Gerhard Froehlich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> I wanna nominate Donald äääh Peter ;). Peter is a PMC member
> in the moment!
> 

I second the nomination of Peter Donald.

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Java : the speed of Smalltalk with the simple elegance of C++... 


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RE: PMC Nomination (Bodewig and MacNeill)

[Scott Sanders]

> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:00 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: PMC Nomination (Bodewig and MacNeill)
> 
> 
> On 1/31/02 4:24 PM, "Magesh Umasankar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I would like to nominate the following two
> > individuals to the PMC.
> > 
> >   - Stefan Bodewig
> >   - Conor MacNeill
> > 
> 
> I don't know Stefan at all, so I cannot in good conscience 
> second it. I am sure that someone else will.
> 
> However, I have had direct interaction with Conor, and I 
> expect he would make a great PMC member, so I second his nomination.
> 
> However, can we make it conditional that he fixes the 
> classloader in Ant 1.4.x?  ;)

Are you asking for that to be his 'platform'?

LOL

Scott

> 
> 
> -- 
> Geir Magnusson Jr. 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> System and Software Consulting
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little 
> temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - 
> Benjamin Franklin
> 
> 
> 
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Re: PMC Nomination (Bodewig and MacNeill)

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/31/02 4:24 PM, "Magesh Umasankar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to nominate the following two
> individuals to the PMC.
> 
>   - Stefan Bodewig
>   - Conor MacNeill
> 

I don't know Stefan at all, so I cannot in good conscience second it. I am
sure that someone else will.

However, I have had direct interaction with Conor, and I expect he would
make a great PMC member, so I second his nomination.

However, can we make it conditional that he fixes the classloader in Ant
1.4.x?  ;)


-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin



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Re: PMC Nomination - Peter Donald

[Paul Hammant]

>
>
>That he is a good coder, we don't have to discuss, I guess!
>
Don't forget prolific!

+1

- Paul


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RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Paulo Gaspar]

A bit more of OT inline:
=;o)

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:50 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: J2EE considered harmful
>
>
> At 09:11 PM 1/31/2002 +0100, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >  (1) Not using that kind of layer does NOT mean that you have to
> >  concatenate Strings;
>
> Yes, am pretty sure there are ways to make life easier with SQL,
> sorry for bad comparison.

No reason to be sorry. The traditional approach you pointed is a PITA.
I am just mentioning alternatives.


> See, despite all of the skepticism about O/R mechanisms, I
> believe in this
> approach for one reason - I used a good O/R tool for major
> development for
> about 4 years now. I am talking about WebObjects. I believe this was the
> first application server out there (I think before even the term was
> coined). Now it lives in a relative obscurity since NeXT (the inventor of
> it) was bought by Apple, and Apple has no reputation for "enterprise"
> solutions.

I always read good thinking about WebObjects. I am really getting
curious about it.

> The bottom line here is that developer productivity goes up
> significantly.
> Code produced is incomparably easier to understand and maintain. And
> performance price is not that big (definitely not comparable to
> the impact EJB would make).

UAU! Good performance too?

I did read a lot about its productivity but nothing about
performance.


> >  (2) The use of Javabeans is abused.
>
> Totally agree. Still does not make this pattern bad. One use is a
> transport
> mechanism for data between the application parts. Clean and easy
> to understand.

Yes, but I think javabeans should be reserved for complex business
logic where it shines on the clean & easy aspects.

For data transport a lot can be automated in Java using approaches
like the Dynabeans. I mean, code like this:

bean1.field1 = someOtherSource.getObject("field1");
bean1.field2 = someOtherSource.getObject("field2");
...
bean1.field47 = someOtherSource.getObject("field47");

is really dumb and painful.

>  Sorry for an OT post, this J2EE licensing discussion got a
> bit off hand.

A lot of interesting discussions go on OT all the time.
=;o)

> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Paulo Gaspar]

I accept. I want to see the end of the movie.
=;o)

And I believe I will (would) survive if the lower probability
result happens. I am already too involved anyway.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:41 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> You mean that you accept?  (You need to accept or decline)
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:01 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> > 
> > 
> > Now I am speechless!
> > (Never happened before as you well know!)
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:56 PM
> > > To: Jakarta General List
> > > Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> > >
> > >
> > > Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the code 
> > > that we have been producing.  He has experienced first hand 
> > the pains 
> > > that are inflicted on the consumers of our software when 
> > decisions are 
> > > made based on the rampant subproject rivalry that continues 
> > to exist.  
> > > Throughout it all he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
> > >
> > > Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or 
> > not, it is my 
> > > sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more 
> > directly involved 
> > > in the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.
> > >
> > > - Sam Ruby


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RE: PMC Nomination - Jason van Zyl

[Scott Sanders]

+1.

> -Original Message-
> From: Kurt Schrader [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:01 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Jason van Zyl
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to nominate Jason Van Zyl for the PMC.  Jason is 
> a current PMC member, is a (very) active Turbine developer, 
> founded the Velocity project, has participated in any number 
> of Jakarta projects, and strikes me as an overall a great 
> guy.  He is also the type of person that lets his actions 
> (with regards to consistently supporting users while still 
> outputting a massive amount of code) speak louder than his 
> words, and I think that we can always use a few more people 
> like that around here.
> 
> -Kurt
> 
> 
> --
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PMC Nomination - Jason van Zyl

[Kurt Schrader]

Hi,

I would like to nominate Jason Van Zyl for the PMC.  Jason is a current
PMC member, is a (very) active Turbine developer, founded the Velocity
project, has participated in any number of Jakarta projects, and strikes
me as an overall a great guy.  He is also the type of person that
lets his actions (with regards to consistently supporting users while
still outputting a massive amount of code) speak louder than his words,
and I think that we can always use a few more people like that around here.

-Kurt


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RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 09:11 PM 1/31/2002 +0100, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>  (1) Not using that kind of layer does NOT mean that you have to
>  concatenate Strings;

Yes, am pretty sure there are ways to make life easier with SQL, sorry for 
bad comparison.

See, despite all of the skepticism about O/R mechanisms, I believe in this 
approach for one reason - I used a good O/R tool for major development for 
about 4 years now. I am talking about WebObjects. I believe this was the 
first application server out there (I think before even the term was 
coined). Now it lives in a relative obscurity since NeXT (the inventor of 
it) was bought by Apple, and Apple has no reputation for "enterprise" 
solutions.

The bottom line here is that developer productivity goes up significantly. 
Code produced is incomparably easier to understand and maintain. And 
performance price is not that big (definitely not comparable to the impact 
EJB would make).


>  (2) The use of Javabeans is abused.

Totally agree. Still does not make this pattern bad. One use is a transport 
mechanism for data between the application parts. Clean and easy to understand.

 Sorry for an OT post, this J2EE licensing discussion got a bit off hand.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Scott Sanders]

You mean that you accept?  (You need to accept or decline)

> -Original Message-
> From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:01 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> Now I am speechless!
> (Never happened before as you well know!)
> 
> Have fun,
> Paulo
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:56 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> >
> >
> > Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the code 
> > that we have been producing.  He has experienced first hand 
> the pains 
> > that are inflicted on the consumers of our software when 
> decisions are 
> > made based on the rampant subproject rivalry that continues 
> to exist.  
> > Throughout it all he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
> >
> > Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or 
> not, it is my 
> > sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more 
> directly involved 
> > in the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.
> >
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> --
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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Paulo Gaspar]

Now I am speechless!
(Never happened before as you well know!)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:56 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
>
>
> Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the code that we
> have been producing.  He has experienced first hand the pains that are
> inflicted on the consumers of our software when decisions are
> made based on
> the rampant subproject rivalry that continues to exist.  Throughout it all
> he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
>
> Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or not, it is my
> sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more directly involved in
> the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> --
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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Ignacio J. Ortega]

+1

Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega


> -Mensaje original-
> De: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: jueves 31 de enero de 2002 21:56
> Para: Jakarta General List
> Asunto: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the 
> code that we
> have been producing.  He has experienced first hand the pains that are
> inflicted on the consumers of our software when decisions are 
> made based on
> the rampant subproject rivalry that continues to exist.  
> Throughout it all
> he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
> 
> Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or not, it is my
> sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more directly 
> involved in
> the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 
> 

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Re: PMC Nomination - Peter Donald

[Magesh Umasankar]

+1

Cheers,
Magesh

***
*  Yawn: The only time some married men ever  *
*  get to open their mouth.   *
***
- Original Message -
From: "Gerhard Froehlich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:16 PM
Subject: PMC Nomination - Peter Donald


> Hi,
> I wanna nominate Donald äääh Peter ;). Peter is a PMC member
> in the moment!
>
> I'm around with him mainly in the Avalon Project. I never met him
> personally, but I believe I would like him! He is a excellent
> developer with a very broad knowledge and he has a really
> _kool_ humour. I always feel welcome in the Avalon project
> and he is one of the reasons!
>
> That he is a good coder, we don't have to discuss, I guess!
>
> Well I know, that sounds more like a declaration of love, but it
> isn't ;-)
>
>   Gerhard
>
> 
> I just found the last bug...
> 
>
>
>
> --
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PMC Nomination (Bodewig and MacNeill)

[Magesh Umasankar]

I would like to nominate the following two 
individuals to the PMC.

- Stefan Bodewig
- Conor MacNeill

They have been around for a long time here
and have exhibited a lot of commitment in 
what they do (from what I have seen in the 
Ant World).

With that said, I would like to see them
get elected.

Cheers,
Magesh


*  Doctor: A person who kills your ills by pills,  *
*  and then kills you with his bills.  *



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PMC Nomination - Peter Donald

[Gerhard Froehlich]

Hi,
I wanna nominate Donald äääh Peter ;). Peter is a PMC member
in the moment!

I'm around with him mainly in the Avalon Project. I never met him
personally, but I believe I would like him! He is a excellent
developer with a very broad knowledge and he has a really
_kool_ humour. I always feel welcome in the Avalon project
and he is one of the reasons!

That he is a good coder, we don't have to discuss, I guess!

Well I know, that sounds more like a declaration of love, but it
isn't ;-)

  Gerhard


I just found the last bug...




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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Scott Sanders]

:)  I know.  I was referring to the size of Paulo's as-of-yet
contribution to what Jakarta can become :)

Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:05 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> Scott Sanders wrote:
> >
> > HUGE +1.
> 
> I'm sorry, but just because you have been nominated to the 
> PMC doesn't mean that your vote is any bigger than anyone 
> else's around here.
> 
> :-P
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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> additional commands, 
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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Sam Ruby]

Scott Sanders wrote:
>
> HUGE +1.

I'm sorry, but just because you have been nominated to the PMC doesn't mean
that your vote is any bigger than anyone else's around here.

:-P

- Sam Ruby


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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Scott Sanders]

HUGE +1.  He has the biggest mouth I have heard in a long time, and an
excellent outsiders viewpoint.

Scott Sanders

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:56 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the 
> code that we have been producing.  He has experienced first 
> hand the pains that are inflicted on the consumers of our 
> software when decisions are made based on the rampant 
> subproject rivalry that continues to exist.  Throughout it 
> all he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
> 
> Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or not, 
> it is my sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more 
> directly involved in the subprojects he cares about, and 
> becomes a committer.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> 
> 

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PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Sam Ruby]

Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the code that we
have been producing.  He has experienced first hand the pains that are
inflicted on the consumers of our software when decisions are made based on
the rampant subproject rivalry that continues to exist.  Throughout it all
he has never been one to hold back his opinions.

Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or not, it is my
sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more directly involved in
the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.

- Sam Ruby


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RE: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Paulo Gaspar]

LOL

Sam as an ego!


Have fun,
Paulo

P.S.: I would vote on all these guys if I could.
  Scott, Sam, Stefano and Jon.


> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:49 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders
> 
> 
> Scott Sanders wrote:
> >
> > I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
> >
> > Jon, Sam, and Stefano are my open source 'idols'.
> 
> I *love* it!
> 
> A self nomination that was crafted in such a way to guarantee the 
> necessary
> "seconds".
> 
> I'll be glad to do my part:
> 
>+1
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 


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RE: PMC Nomination

[Ignacio J. Ortega]

+1

Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega


> -Mensaje original-
> De: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: jueves 31 de enero de 2002 14:28
> Para: Apache Jakarta
> Asunto: PMC Nomination
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate
> 
>  - Jon Stevens
>  - Sam Ruby
> 
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
> 
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.
> 
> Sure, they have diametrically different styles and attitudes, but this
> the reason why I want to nominate both at the same time: they balance
> out since they listen to each other and, deep down below, 
> they share the
> very same feelings about what apache is.
> 
> If somebody has to decide where jakarta is going, I'd like having them
> decide for me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Paulo Gaspar]

*persistence transparency* <=> *waste of efficiency*

There are no good systems that solve that yet. It only works for very
simple schemas.

Besides,
 (1) Not using that kind of layer does NOT mean that you have to
 concatenate Strings;
 (2) The use of Javabeans is abused.

For (1) I use SQL generators for the most common operations and SQL
templates - defined in an XML file - for the others. Having SQL defined
outside the Java code often saves a lot of time and avoids the
concatenation mess.

For (2)... just go to the jakarta-commons mail archives and check the
discussions about the DynaBeans stuff.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar



> -Original Message-
> From: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:43 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: J2EE considered harmful
>
> ...
>
> Well, if EJB (or others) are doing it wrong, it doesn't mean that Object
> Relational approach is bad. I agree that objects mapped straight to the
> rows one to one are not of much use by themselves. But they provide
> something that you will need to build your less fine grained objects,
> namely *persistence transparency*. By the same token you can say that any
> objects that use Java Bean pattern are useless, since all they
> have is get
> and set methods.
>
> But well, some people may like to concatenate SQL strings every time they
> want to get some data written or read to/from the database. The keyword
> here is "productivity".
>
>
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
>


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Re: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Sam Ruby]

Scott Sanders wrote:
>
> I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
>
> Jon, Sam, and Stefano are my open source 'idols'.

I *love* it!

A self nomination that was crafted in such a way to guarantee the necessary
"seconds".

I'll be glad to do my part:

   +1

- Sam Ruby


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RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 12:36 PM 1/31/2002 -0500, Steve Downey wrote:
>EJB also brings to the table all of the problems of the Object/Relational
>impedance mismatch. It's an empirical fact at this point that rows in a
>table are bad objects. They're data, and have no behavior. Turning them into
>objects with container managed persistence doesn't make them good objects.
>Objects are composed out of many rows spanning several tables. That's hard
>to do with CMP.
>
>Just my $0.02.

Well, if EJB (or others) are doing it wrong, it doesn't mean that Object 
Relational approach is bad. I agree that objects mapped straight to the 
rows one to one are not of much use by themselves. But they provide 
something that you will need to build your less fine grained objects, 
namely *persistence transparency*. By the same token you can say that any 
objects that use Java Bean pattern are useless, since all they have is get 
and set methods.

But well, some people may like to concatenate SQL strings every time they 
want to get some data written or read to/from the database. The keyword 
here is "productivity".


~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: Re: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[acoliver]

+1 

>On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:14:36 -0800 Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>on 2002.1.31 10:36 AM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
>
> 1
>
>-jon
>
>
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Re: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002.1.31 10:36 AM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.

+1

-jon


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PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Scott Sanders]

I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.

Who I am:

I am a developer with 10 years of experience.  I got my first taste of
Open Source Software with JServ 0.9, and helped (albeit very little)
with Jserv as a lurker/non-committer.  I use/have used Apache products
everyday in my development of various projects.  My current focus is on
building the Commons community to have a large library of reusable
components for my own development work.  I am also working on a proposal
for the re-birth of Alexandria, and have some thoughts on how to make
James an 'Exchange Killer'.  I am not being paid to work at jakarta, and
I am happy to help build the community.

What I want to accomplish:

Jon, Sam, and Stefano are my open source 'idols'.  I respect what each
of them have done for Jakarta and Apache as a whole.  I would like to
follow in the gigantic footsteps of Sam in helping to increase
inter-project communication and cooperation.  This can only help to
increase the Apache community in general, and the Jakarta community
specifically.  I would also like to continue Sam's work in the
cooperation with the xml.apache.org community.  Part of the community
building is having some way of finding code within Apache.

I look forward to helping improve the jakarta community,
Scott Sanders

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RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

[Scott Sanders]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 5:58 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> 
> 
> On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 19:54, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > on 2002.1.30 4:15 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it 
> > > doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can 
> you give me 
> > > a good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that 
> effect.  It 
> > > just seems like we should be asking for something and being 
> > > specific.
> > > 
> > > -Andy
> > 
> > That is a very good point. However, privately, Sun knows 
> exactly what 
> > we want.
> > 
> > There is still some stuff that goes on behind the scenes 
> around here 
> > that unfortunately isn't exposed. Needless to say, 
> discussions about 
> > opening some of that up (including posting what we want to 
> the public 
> > site) are going on now.
> > 
> 
> For starters:
> I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same 
> license as the rest of the JDK.
> 
> Personally I'm having a hard time getting particularly in 
> uproar as I think the central core of J2EE - Enterprise Java 
> Beans is such a poor standard, that I'm not particularly 
> upset that its not *free*.  I should not say these things 
> publicly, as I still have to work in these things, but in 
> truth EJB and particularly Entity beans is a less that 
> elegant kludge.  
> 
> In truth J2EE is kind of a scam.  It claims to be aiming for 
> compatibility and universality but the truth is the vendors 
> play too big of a role in it.  They want to have lots of room 
> for proprietary extensions.  Its market one thing but 
> actually sell another.
> 
> I'd rather see someone come up with an opensource standard 
> that achieves the goals of EJBs without being limited by its 
> faulty design and backward compatibility with its original 
> faultier design.  Just my humble opinion on that.

Check out AJB in Avalon.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-apps-dev&m=101158982807771&w=2

Uses AltRMI from the Commons to achieve RMI with extending Remote or
throwing remote exception.  Now you can publish any class/interface
remotely...

Cheers,
Scott


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RE: J2EE considered harmful (was [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml])

[Steve Downey]

> I have implemented a system using Container Managed EntityBeans that 
> worked fairly well. I used Jonas (it was some time ago). It 
> was smaller 
> than the original poster example (about 20 entity classes, tens of 
> thousands of instances). I spent a lot of time getting the 
> entity design 
> right. From the original description, it looks like the 
> problems in the 
> quoted project came from bad system design, more than from EJB 
> technology as such.
> 
> Comments on my experience:
> 
> - The location and engine independence was a true marvel. I was 
> developing with postgres/linux and deploying under 
> MSSQLServer/NT with 
> the same source code. Only small diffs in configuration needed.
> - Performance was not good, but scalability was.
> - Leaving transaction and persistence management to the 
> container proved 
> good at the end.
> - My main issue in the development were related with using 
> JSP for the 
> interface (JSP sucks (c) Jon :) )
> 
> So, while I agree with political/licensing issues being of concern, I 
> would not disqualify EJB as a whole from a technological 
> point of view. 
> YMMV.
> 

My experience with Distributed Object Systems goes back to early CORBA and
DCOM. I've seen about as many failures in just about every distributed
system, regardless of technology flavour. EJB is just the latest, and as
seems usual in our industry, lots of people are coming in, treating it as
green field development, and are making the same mistakes.

Mostly, they ignore that the choice of making a system distributed is
fundamental. You can not take an Object Model and arbitrarily cleave it and
produce a good Distributed Object Model. The worst case of this I ever saw
was a system that had String as a CORBA object. 

EJB also brings to the table all of the problems of the Object/Relational
impedance mismatch. It's an empirical fact at this point that rows in a
table are bad objects. They're data, and have no behavior. Turning them into
objects with container managed persistence doesn't make them good objects.
Objects are composed out of many rows spanning several tables. That's hard
to do with CMP.

Just my $0.02.

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PMC Nomination - Ted Husted

[Morgan Delagrange]

I would like to nominate Ted Husted for re-election to the PMC.

Ted has a strong (and active) committment to documentation, probably the
most often neglected component of any project.  He also was a driving force
in the Commons project; it's unlikely that the Commons would have been so
successful in its first year if it weren't for Ted's influence.  Finally, he
may have the most level head in Jakarta.  That's a big plus.

- Morgan Delagrange



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LogKit 1.0.1 Released

[Berin Loritsch]

LogKit 1.0.1 Released
-
  The Avalon team is proud to announce the 1.0.1 final
  release of LogKit.

About Avalon

  The Avalon project is Apache's Java Server Framework.
  It is separated into five sub projects: Framework,
  Excalibur, LogKit, Cornerstone, and Phoenix. Its
  purpose is to simplify server side programming for
  Java based projects. It formalizes serveral best
  of breed practices and patterns for server side programming.

For more information about Avalon, please go to
http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon

About LogKit 1.0.1
--
  LogKit is an easy to use logging toolkit designed
  for secure performance oriented logging. It's design
  encourages integration into existing products
  with minimal impact.

For more information about LogKit 1.0.1, please go to
http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/logkit

ChangeLog for LogKit 1.0.1

*)  Fixed spelling in the documentation files. [PD]

*)  Fix javadoc warnings from "@returns" tags used instead
  of "@return". [PD]

*)  added new constructors to produce better readable
  file names in the File Strategy classes. [GP]

*)  Added fixes to AsyncLogTarget: Make sure that the
  LogTarget delegated to cannot disrupt thread by
  throwing an exception. Remove uneeded step from
  documentation. [PD]

*)  Many improvements to PatternFormatter including:
  Made it possible to specify the format of date in the
  auxilliary parameter of the format for dates. Cached
  the date and DateFormatter objects so that they are
  not created every time a LogEvent is formatted. Added
  a getRTime() method to format relative time. Just
  delegates to getTime at the moment for backwards
  compatability. [PD]

*)  Made sure that additivity is transitive (in Logger)
  - even when you only inherit your loggers from your
  parent. [PD]

*)  Added isPriorityEnabled() method to Logger to determine
  if specified priority is enabled. [PD]

*)  Various build improvements. [LM]


Downloads for LogKit 1.0.1 available at

http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-avalon/release/logkit/latest




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Re: URGENT: 3rd Party jar's in apache CVS need immediate action.

[Guillaume Rousse]

Ainsi parlait Stefano Mazzocchi :
[..]
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not against this. But the above are words, I
> need something that works and jars in CVS (with the license and
> description of where they were from attached) work best for me.
As a kind of shamefuly self-publicity, jpackage project used initially 
package-management-system independent xml software descriptors, that you 
could find in project CVS here: 
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/jpackage/xml-spec

As we produced initially different rpms for different Linux distributions, we 
produced them from the same stem. This could easily have been extended to 
other packaging system, with something as

 
  [.. system independant software description .. ]
 

  
  [.. instruction for building rpm for this software .. ]
  

  
  [.. instruction for building deb for this software.. ]
  

 
 [ .. instruction for building an auto-installable archive.. ]
 

-- 
Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
GPG key http://lis.snv.jussieu.fr/~rousse/gpgkey.html

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Re: URGENT: 3rd Party jar's in apache CVS need immediate action.

[Guillaume Rousse]

Ainsi parlait Guillaume Rousse :
[..]
> Jpackage project (http://package.org) try to provide such a consistent set
> of java software for rpm world. Debian java project
> (http://people.debian.org/~tora/java/packagelist.html) provide the same
> service for debian world. Both try also to enforce nomal Unix conventions
> (FHS, etc...) and establish cross-project packaging policies. We all know
> this only adress a subset of java realm, so we don't ask for dropping other
> platforms support. We just ask to make it an optional additional layer, not
> make it mandatory as it is currently...

Something i forgot to say: all package provided at 
http://jpackage.sourceforge.net/packages.php are build by first deleting all 
jar present in the archive, and relying on other packages which are build 
from source also. Yes, it is a lot of work, but it is possible...
-- 
Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
GPG key http://lis.snv.jussieu.fr/~rousse/gpgkey.html

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Re: URGENT: 3rd Party jar's in apache CVS need immediate action.

[Guillaume Rousse]

Ainsi parlait Kimbro Staken :
> On Tuesday, January 29, 2002, at 01:36 PM, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> > Don't import any jar back into the cvs, but fills a complete and exact
> > dependency list -)
> >
> > Ok, not exactly what you're looking for, but at least it could open the
> > debate. Outside of java world, i never saw any binary in CVS. Instead
> > there
> > are README files telling: you need libfoo-x.y.z and libbar-x.y.z to build
> > this soft.
>
> And this is one of the great benefits of Java software. Having to track
> down all the dependencies is a major PITA for the user of the software. A
> lot of this stuff is hard enough to get going, why introduce more pain.
> This just seems like the wrong solution for a problem that is primarily a
> legal rather then technical issue.
I don't think this is really a *benefit* of Java software. Nothing prevent a 
native software to provide staticaly-linked binaries of make for every 
existing platforms in CVS. The fact that one only ant binary for Java 
software is enough doesn't make it an acceptable practice.
Keeping track of dependencies is the task of a package management system, 
which only exist for Unix AFAK, while Java is multi-platform. But when this 
means 'propagating nasty platforms-specific constraints everywhere', i think 
we reach limits of cross-platform possibilities :-)

> > Putting dependencies in CVS is nasty because:
> > - you make release tarballs biggers
> > - you end up with lots of duplicated files on your box
> > - you give headache to external people wanting to package the soft
> > properly
> > for computing exact dependencies (but what version of foobar is this
> > foobar.jar exactly ?)
> > - you can't follow external dependencies evolutions, as you use a static
> > one
>
> Some arguments against it.
> - You increase the pain for users significantly, it might be ok for
> developers who are going to have lots of jars and know where they are, but
> an end user won't want to deal with that. Java enables the problem to be
> solved in a way that was very difficult to accomplish with C.
Users relying on packaged software just have to use apt-get (for debian 
packages) or uprmi (for rpms packages) to have automated dependencies 
resolution, remote package fetching, and so on.

> - Increased pain for users means decreased usage of the software.
> - Since many developers start out as users, fewer users means fewer
> developers.
> - Not shipping a consistent set of jars increases the support headache
> significantly.
Ensuring a consistent set of jars is not the task of developpers IHMO, but of 
packagers and distributers. Moreover, unless you are strictly self-dependant, 
as some peoples propose it, this consistency will concern only other software 
 part of the same project, unless you want to duplicate everything outside of 
ASF.

> - You run the risk of a required dependency becoming unavailable which
> makes the software unusable.
If a dependency becomes unavailable, i think there is a reason behind 
(obsolescence, upgrade, security hole, etc). By short-circuiting the effect, 
you prevent normal evolution to takes place.

Jpackage project (http://package.org) try to provide such a consistent set of 
java software for rpm world. Debian java project 
(http://people.debian.org/~tora/java/packagelist.html) provide the same 
service for debian world. Both try also to enforce nomal Unix conventions 
(FHS, etc...) and establish cross-project packaging policies. We all know 
this only adress a subset of java realm, so we don't ask for dropping other 
platforms support. We just ask to make it an optional additional layer, not 
make it mandatory as it is currently...
-- 
Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
GPG key http://lis.snv.jussieu.fr/~rousse/gpgkey.html

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Re: Use of Jakarta guidelines for other Open Source project

[acoliver]

If I'm not mistaking aren't the guidelines APL'd?  Hence you can use them
provided you give credit and don't advertise your guidlines as Apache, or
Apache Jakarta or Apache Jakarta Guidelines? ;-)




>On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:47:00  0100 Mark Brouwer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>Hi there,
>
>Our company is at the point of starting an Open Source project for one
>of our Jini/Java projects. We are now in the process of writing our
>License and Community Guidelines.
>
>After studying and working with some Open Source guidelines we feel the
>ones applied by the Jakarta Project are the ones we would like to adopt. 
>As I found out, being a non native English speaker, rewriting a sound
>piece of guidelines in your own words is a non trivial task. Just screen
>scraping the Jakarta Guidelines without permission, and changing were it
>needs to be changed for our particular situation, wouldn't seem the
>right thing to do.
>
>Therefore I ask whether the Jakarta project would mind if we adopt the
>Guidelines and represent it on our site in a way somebody familiar with
>Jakarta would say "hm, that looks familiar, were have I seen this
>before ...".
>
>Of course proper credits will be given. Something that will be given
>anyway, for our project makes use of the various Jakarta subprojects.
>
>Please let me know whether you object against 'Open Guidelining' ;-)
>
>Regards,  
>-- 
>Mark Brouwer
>
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>


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Re: Another complain... FW: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/31/02 10:39 AM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I just hope someone does something. Killing the links to something
> that is not there sounds good to me.
> 
> I am getting a lot of complains like this and I will keep forwarding
> them here.
> 
> (And when I get fed up with doing that I will find a new way of
> making noise one order of magnitude higher!)

I have no clue how it works, but I can go in to try and fix..

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...


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Re: Use of Jakarta guidelines for other Open Source project

[Mark Brouwer]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> 
> 
>
> The fine line to watch out for:
> 
>Basing your guidelines on Jakarta and letting people know that this is,
>in fact, the case is quite OK and actually is appreciated.
> 
>Implying in any way that your project is either a part of or is endorsed
>by Apache or Jakarta without prior permission is not.
> 
> As long as you understand and do not cross that line, feel free to procede
> as you have described.
> 

Thanks Sam for your quick response.

After spending over 100 hours studying the various Open Source licenses,
having discussions with legal people, I'm very aware of the 'fine line'
:-).

So no worries, 
-- 
Mark Brouwer

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RE: Another complain... FW: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken

[Paulo Gaspar]

I just hope someone does something. Killing the links to something
that is not there sounds good to me.

I am getting a lot of complains like this and I will keep forwarding
them here.

(And when I get fed up with doing that I will find a new way of
making noise one order of magnitude higher!)


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: dIon Gillard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:00 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Another complain... FW: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken
>
>
> Ok,
>
> I have NO idea about how this works, but obviously noone wants to fix it
> either.
>
> Why don't we take it offline until it's fixed?
>
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Jonathan Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:42 PM
> >To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> >Subject: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken
> >
> >
> >I cannot get the Jakarta FAQ-o-matic to work correctly.
> >http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs
> /action/Set
> >All/project_id/2
> >displays the following error message:
> >Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at
> >org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.ja
> va:648) at
> >org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.j
> ava:158) at
> >org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.
> doPerform(D
> >efaultSessionValidator.java:101) at
> >org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91) at
> >org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119) at
> >org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325) at
> >javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740) at
> >javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(
> Application
> >FilterChain.java:247) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Applicat
> ionFilterCh
> >ain.java:193) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrap
> perValve.ja
> >va:243) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >66) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline
> .java:472)
> >at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardCont
> extValve.ja
> >va:201) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >66) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline
> .java:472)
> >at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.j
> ava:2344)
> >at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostVal
> ve.java:164
> >) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >66) at
> >org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispa
> tcherValve.
> >java:170) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >64) at
> >org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportVal
> ve.java:170
> >) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >64) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline
> .java:472)
> >at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngin
> eValve.java
> >:163) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >66) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline
> .java:472)
> >at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> >org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProc
> essor.java:
> >1011) at
> >org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcesso
> r.java:1106
> >) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)
> >It would be good if this can be fixed relatively quickly (it's been like
> >this for a couple of days now) as it seems to present a very bad
> picture of
> >Jakarta Tomcat if the Jakarta team cannot get their own
> Java-enabled website
> >running correctly.
> >All the best,
> >--
> >Jonathan Miller
> >
> >Cartesian Limited
> >Descartes House
> >8 Gate Street
> >London WC2A 3HP
> >web: www.cartesian.co.uk
> >
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >For additional commands, e-mail: 
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> http://www.multitask.com.au/developers
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>


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Re: Use of Jakarta guidelines for other Open Source project

[Sam Ruby]

Mark Brouwer wrote:
>
> Therefore I ask whether the Jakarta project would mind if we adopt the
> Guidelines and represent it on our site in a way somebody familiar with
> Jakarta would say "hm, that looks familiar, were have I seen this
> before ...".
>
> Of course proper credits will be given.

Copying with attribution would be wonderful!  We'd love to see more things
developed in an open and cooperative fashion.

The fine line to watch out for:

   Basing your guidelines on Jakarta and letting people know that this is,
   in fact, the case is quite OK and actually is appreciated.

   Implying in any way that your project is either a part of or is endorsed
   by Apache or Jakarta without prior permission is not.

As long as you understand and do not cross that line, feel free to procede
as you have described.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Another complain... FW: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken

[dIon Gillard]

Ok,

I have NO idea about how this works, but obviously noone wants to fix it 
either.

Why don't we take it offline until it's fixed?

Paulo Gaspar wrote:

>-Original Message-
>From: Jonathan Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:42 PM
>To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
>Subject: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken
>
>
>I cannot get the Jakarta FAQ-o-matic to work correctly.
>http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/action/Set
>All/project_id/2
>displays the following error message:
>Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at
>org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648) at
>org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158) at
>org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.doPerform(D
>efaultSessionValidator.java:101) at
>org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91) at
>org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119) at
>org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325) at
>javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740) at
>javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(Application
>FilterChain.java:247) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(ApplicationFilterCh
>ain.java:193) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapperValve.ja
>va:243) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
>66) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
>at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardContextValve.ja
>va:201) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
>66) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
>at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.java:2344)
>at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValve.java:164
>) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
>66) at
>org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispatcherValve.
>java:170) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
>64) at
>org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValve.java:170
>) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
>64) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
>at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngineValve.java
>:163) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
>66) at
>org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
>at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
>org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProcessor.java:
>1011) at
>org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor.java:1106
>) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)
>It would be good if this can be fixed relatively quickly (it's been like
>this for a couple of days now) as it seems to present a very bad picture of
>Jakarta Tomcat if the Jakarta team cannot get their own Java-enabled website
>running correctly.
>All the best,
>--
>Jonathan Miller
>
>Cartesian Limited
>Descartes House
>8 Gate Street
>London WC2A 3HP
>web: www.cartesian.co.uk
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
>


-- 
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
http://www.multitask.com.au/developers




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Another complain... FW: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken

[Paulo Gaspar]

-Original Message-
From: Jonathan Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:42 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken


I cannot get the Jakarta FAQ-o-matic to work correctly.
http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/action/Set
All/project_id/2
displays the following error message:
Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at
org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648) at
org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158) at
org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.doPerform(D
efaultSessionValidator.java:101) at
org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91) at
org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119) at
org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325) at
javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740) at
javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853) at
org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(Application
FilterChain.java:247) at
org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(ApplicationFilterCh
ain.java:193) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapperValve.ja
va:243) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
66) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardContextValve.ja
va:201) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
66) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.java:2344)
at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValve.java:164
) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
66) at
org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispatcherValve.
java:170) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
64) at
org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValve.java:170
) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
64) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngineValve.java
:163) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
66) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProcessor.java:
1011) at
org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor.java:1106
) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)
It would be good if this can be fixed relatively quickly (it's been like
this for a couple of days now) as it seems to present a very bad picture of
Jakarta Tomcat if the Jakarta team cannot get their own Java-enabled website
running correctly.
All the best,
--
Jonathan Miller

Cartesian Limited
Descartes House
8 Gate Street
London WC2A 3HP
web: www.cartesian.co.uk


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Use of Jakarta guidelines for other Open Source project

[Mark Brouwer]

Hi there,

Our company is at the point of starting an Open Source project for one
of our Jini/Java projects. We are now in the process of writing our
License and Community Guidelines.

After studying and working with some Open Source guidelines we feel the
ones applied by the Jakarta Project are the ones we would like to adopt. 
As I found out, being a non native English speaker, rewriting a sound
piece of guidelines in your own words is a non trivial task. Just screen
scraping the Jakarta Guidelines without permission, and changing were it
needs to be changed for our particular situation, wouldn't seem the
right thing to do.

Therefore I ask whether the Jakarta project would mind if we adopt the
Guidelines and represent it on our site in a way somebody familiar with
Jakarta would say "hm, that looks familiar, were have I seen this
before ...".

Of course proper credits will be given. Something that will be given
anyway, for our project makes use of the various Jakarta subprojects.

Please let me know whether you object against 'Open Guidelining' ;-)

Regards,  
-- 
Mark Brouwer

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RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Paulo Gaspar]

I think that the key bit is:
 > and it is a mistake to try to program 
 > as though a
 > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.

Your app will always be more robust if you do NOT ignore the
specific issues of a remote call.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:50 PM
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
> 
> 
> Hi Tim.
> 
> I agree with your point of view, we've been trying to avoid EJBs 
> as much as
> possible. But there's one thing I don't understand.
> 
> > -Mensaje original-
> > De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation 
> > techniques
> > would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent, 
> > instead of
> > requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But 
> > personally, I think RPC
> > is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program 
> > as though a
> > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.
> 
> Why is it a mistake? I think a remote proxy is a great way to make remote
> calls, shielding the developer from the complexity of it all. The recent
> discussion about AltRMI has shown that there's a lot of interest in using
> proxies, but it was Sun's implementation (the Remote* stuff) that was
> flawed.
> 
> Un saludo,
> 
> Alex.
> 

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FW: Error on site-internal link

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Rolf Heckemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Rolf Heckemann
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:09 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Error on site-internal link
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> The page
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html
> 
> contains the link
> http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/
> action/SetAll/project_id/2
> 
> which brings up a NoClassDefFoundError.
> 
> I need the Faq-O-Matic - please help.
> 
> Rolf
> 
> 
> -- 
> Rolf Heckemann (Dr. med.) Research Fellow
> Department of Imaging Hammersmith Hospital, London
> 

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Re: PMC Nomination

[Andrew C. Oliver]

second.

On Thu, 2002-01-31 at 08:27, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I would like to nominate
> 
>  - Jon Stevens
>  - Sam Ruby
> 
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
> 
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.
> 
> Sure, they have diametrically different styles and attitudes, but this
> the reason why I want to nominate both at the same time: they balance
> out since they listen to each other and, deep down below, they share the
> very same feelings about what apache is.
> 
> If somebody has to decide where jakarta is going, I'd like having them
> decide for me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


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Re: J2EE considered harmful (was [Fwd: cvscommit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml])

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Thu, 2002-01-31 at 08:37, Santiago Gala wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> 
> >To be fair, WebSphere is probably more troublesome then the other
> >containers (at least thats been my experience with it).  I do think 
> >there is a time and place for RPC.  I however think better support for
> >location independence is required. 
> >
> (snip)
> 
> >
> >I would suggest gaining experience with other containers (BEA and jBoss
> >for starters, you can download a trial of the former and the latter is
> >opensource) so that you can discriminate the problems that are exist in
> >WebSphere from those in EJBs as a whole.  Not because you want to just
> >do "not-ejb" but so that you don't repeat the same mistakes.
> >
> I have implemented a system using Container Managed EntityBeans that 
> worked fairly well. I used Jonas (it was some time ago). It was smaller 
> than the original poster example (about 20 entity classes, tens of 
> thousands of instances). I spent a lot of time getting the entity design 
> right. From the original description, it looks like the problems in the 
> quoted project came from bad system design, more than from EJB 
> technology as such.
> 

Right.  I'm not saying you CAN'T do a good EJB system.  You can also do
a good JSP system (which does suck...but what do you expect when Sun
takes a page from Microsoft).  

I'm just saying its not good enough.  And Entity beans DO completely
suck.  Sun obviously knows it to because they keep drastically changing
the specs.  

The idea of EJB is suppose to make things easier and time to deploy
faster.  I don't think it will EVER do that...nice thought but no pie.  

> Comments on my experience:
> 
> - The location and engine independence was a true marvel. I was 
> developing with postgres/linux and deploying under MSSQLServer/NT with 
> the same source code. Only small diffs in configuration needed.
> - Performance was not good, but scalability was.
> - Leaving transaction and persistence management to the container proved 
> good at the end.

Want to achieve like 500% performance improvement?  Trash your entity
beans, write some queries and poof.  So you spent a good mount of time
kludging EJB, then in the end performance sucks, and I dare predict that
scalability is not as good as you think it is.

So far even vendor presentations about how they designed apps in such a
short time using their new cool tools have failed the all important
question:  "And just how much hardware did you put behind that?".  EJB
is pushing the envelope.  News flash, programmers are becoming cheaper
than E 1 servers again. ;-)  Its cheaper to do a good
implementation.  Anyhow if you're happy with EJB, then great.  I for one
would like to see a better and more open vendor-neutral standard.

> - My main issue in the development were related with using JSP for the 
> interface (JSP sucks (c) Jon :) )
> 
+1

However, know there are some environments where the only thing worse
than JSP are the programmers that are using it.  Its appropriate for
"programmers" who don't know how to program.  Its also a bit better than
many of the other things in that problem area that were developed around
the same time.

> So, while I agree with political/licensing issues being of concern, I 
> would not disqualify EJB as a whole from a technological point of view. 
> YMMV.
> 
> 

Like I said.  Even if I don't like it, I'll have to work in it.  I guess
I shouldn't pee in the river from which I drink, but I still think its a
very bad standard and poorly designed one.

-Andy

> 
> 
> --
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> 
-- 
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/31/02 8:27 AM, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to nominate
> 
> - Jon Stevens
> - Sam Ruby

I second both.  Stefano, you beat me to it.  I was putting together a longer
list :)

geir

> 
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
> 
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.
> 
> Sure, they have diametrically different styles and attitudes, but this
> the reason why I want to nominate both at the same time: they balance
> out since they listen to each other and, deep down below, they share the
> very same feelings about what apache is.
> 
> If somebody has to decide where jakarta is going, I'd like having them
> decide for me.
> 
> Thanks.

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert


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PMC Nomination

[Stefano Mazzocchi]

I would like to nominate

 - Jon Stevens
 - Sam Ruby

for the upcoming PMC elections.

The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.

Sure, they have diametrically different styles and attitudes, but this
the reason why I want to nominate both at the same time: they balance
out since they listen to each other and, deep down below, they share the
very same feelings about what apache is.

If somebody has to decide where jakarta is going, I'd like having them
decide for me.

Thanks.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
  able to give birth to a dancing star.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche




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Re: J2EE considered harmful (was [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml])

[Santiago Gala]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

>To be fair, WebSphere is probably more troublesome then the other
>containers (at least thats been my experience with it).  I do think 
>there is a time and place for RPC.  I however think better support for
>location independence is required. 
>
(snip)

>
>I would suggest gaining experience with other containers (BEA and jBoss
>for starters, you can download a trial of the former and the latter is
>opensource) so that you can discriminate the problems that are exist in
>WebSphere from those in EJBs as a whole.  Not because you want to just
>do "not-ejb" but so that you don't repeat the same mistakes.
>
I have implemented a system using Container Managed EntityBeans that 
worked fairly well. I used Jonas (it was some time ago). It was smaller 
than the original poster example (about 20 entity classes, tens of 
thousands of instances). I spent a lot of time getting the entity design 
right. From the original description, it looks like the problems in the 
quoted project came from bad system design, more than from EJB 
technology as such.

Comments on my experience:

- The location and engine independence was a true marvel. I was 
developing with postgres/linux and deploying under MSSQLServer/NT with 
the same source code. Only small diffs in configuration needed.
- Performance was not good, but scalability was.
- Leaving transaction and persistence management to the container proved 
good at the end.
- My main issue in the development were related with using JSP for the 
interface (JSP sucks (c) Jon :) )

So, while I agree with political/licensing issues being of concern, I 
would not disqualify EJB as a whole from a technological point of view. 
YMMV.




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[OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro]

Hi Tim.

I agree with your point of view, we've been trying to avoid EJBs as much as
possible. But there's one thing I don't understand.

> -Mensaje original-
> De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation 
> techniques
> would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent, 
> instead of
> requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But 
> personally, I think RPC
> is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program 
> as though a
> remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.

Why is it a mistake? I think a remote proxy is a great way to make remote
calls, shielding the developer from the complexity of it all. The recent
discussion about AltRMI has shown that there's a lot of interest in using
proxies, but it was Sun's implementation (the Remote* stuff) that was
flawed.

Un saludo,

Alex.

Re: J2EE considered harmful (was [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml])

[Tim Hyde]

I've been lurking on this list for several years, and not speaking about
things I'm not contributing to.

But Andy's comment here about EJB & J2EE goes right to the point, and
triggers my passion ...

As an architect, I've been in 5 projects in the last 2.5 years where EJBs
were on the table, and in every case but one there have been overwhelming
reasons to avoid getting involved with that kind of technology. And in the
remaining case, it was already live when I came on board but thankfully the
designer had not used Entity Beans, which made it almost tolerable.

In the last project (a major customer-care callcenter app), they had used
Entity Beans, and Websphere, and there were 500 EJBs, and 4700 distinct
application classes. It took 2 days of continuous processing just to
'deploy' the beans, and I was called in when they found they couldn't meet
adequate performance. Related, of course to the modelling of the database
through Entity Beans. I won't go into the details, but believe me there were
big problems in just about every area I looked at, not least developer
productivity with the toolsets.

My advice was unreservedly to junk both EJB and Websphere, since any
competent designer could implement a solution with about a tenth of the
complexity involved, and with no need for these opaque tools that you can't
control.

Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation techniques
would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent, instead of
requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But personally, I think RPC
is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program as though a
remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.

The Pointy Haired Management are influenced by other views of the
marketplace, of course, but they don't really make any sense if you can see
where technology like this is likely to end up in the longer term. (i.e.
replaced by something better).

The rest of J2EE ? Well, Servlets is great, JSP is just about OK, (but of
course you really wanted a templating engine). And among the rest of the
APIs, there seem to be some that are OK, but an awful lot of it is pretty
mediocre. Overall, it is Java *not* living up to its early promise.

In summary, after a couple of years wondering 'Why am I the only person to
see this ?' it's a relief to see Andy's post.

I also remember seeing Jon's comment 'WAKE UP PEOPLE' a few weeks back
(before Outlook trashed my mailbase) and though I think he is commenting on
Sun's military strategy rather than the technicalities of EJB (am I right
there ?) I do think that we need a much more public protest about the
weakness of the technologies on offer - too many companies are forcing
developers down the J2EE path. DotNet doesn't have to be the winner from
such a protest, either.

There are much better ways to do things, and at present customised solutions
win hands-down on every count except 'common culture'.

I know this is not much Jakarta related (unless Jakarta can take on J2EE
directly ?), but it does seem a very important issue in the context of
server-side Java.

How much support exists for this point of view ? Does anyone have pointers
for areas where rational discontent is brewing in a less 'humble' form ?

- Tim

- Original Message -
From: Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 31 January 2002 01:58
Subject: Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]


>
> On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 19:54, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > on 2002.1.30 4:15 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it
> > > doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can you give me a
> > > good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that effect.  It just
> > > seems like we should be asking for something and being specific.
> > >
> > > -Andy
> >
> > That is a very good point. However, privately, Sun knows exactly what we
> > want.
> >
> > There is still some stuff that goes on behind the scenes around here
that
> > unfortunately isn't exposed. Needless to say, discussions about opening
some
> > of that up (including posting what we want to the public site) are going
on
> > now.
> >
>
> For starters:
> I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same license as the
> rest of the JDK.
>
> Personally I'm having a hard time getting particularly in uproar as I
> think the central core of J2EE - Enterprise Java Beans is such a poor
> standard, that I'm not particularly upset that its not *free*.  I should
> not say these things publicly, as I still have to work in these things,
> but in truth EJB and particularly Entity beans is a less that elegant
> kludge.
>
> In truth J2EE is kind of a scam.  It claims to be aiming for
> compatibility and universality but the truth is the vendors play too big
> of a role in it.  They want to have lots of room for proprietary
> extensions.  Its market one thing but actually sell anot

Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 21:46, Peter Donald wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:58, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > For starters:
> > I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same license as the
> > rest of the JDK.
> 
> I think it is - or at least it used to be? The J2EE trademark is protected as 
> much as the Java trademark is - in some ways less in some ways more.  Ask Sun 
> whether you can have an opensource java impl and they will say "no because we 
> haven't revealed it all". The differenceis that J2EE also has significantly 
> more IP tied up in it that would possibly make it a difficult proposition to 
> cleanly rewrite - though this is the same with some parts of core java 
> classes (ie RMI and friends).
> 

>From my understanding you cannot distribute the j2ee jars and
technologies.  There also seems to be a strange clause that I admittedly
do not understand regarding development of technologies based on. 
Compatibility tests are one thing.  I could give a flip about branding
something as J2EE as it mostly serves to confuse business people.  (Do
you know how to do EJB?  What about J2EE?)  

> > In truth J2EE is kind of a scam.  It claims to be aiming for
> > compatibility and universality but the truth is the vendors play too big
> > of a role in it.  They want to have lots of room for proprietary
> > extensions.  Its market one thing but actually sell another.
> 
> Isn't that the best way to advance technology? Leave room for vendors to play 
> and when the vendors have played with a feature long enough, merge the best 
> ideas together and develope a spec. It was a lot worse in past but with 
> auxilliary APIs/JSRs like deployment and management APIs coming out.
> 

Perhaps, the issue is how far.  Up to now at least, IMHO, they've leaned
more toward "please embrace and extend" and less toward standards based
technologies.  

-Andy

> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pete
> 
> ---
> "I would like to take you seriously but to do so would 
> affront your intelligence" -William F. Buckley, JR
> ---
> 
> 
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www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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RE: PMC Nomination

[Stephane Bailliez]

> -Original Message-
> From: Conor MacNeill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> I would like to nominate Diane Holt for the PMC. Diane is a 
[..]

I second that too.

Stephane

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Re: PMC Nomination

[Stefan Bodewig]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002, Conor MacNeill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I would like to nominate Diane Holt for the PMC.

I second that.

Stefan

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