Re: JakartaOne: The Gathering

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 3/22/02 11:36 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> OK, we need to make a decision, pronto! Let's meet at "21st Amendment" (563
> 2nd Street) at 7:30pm on Monday. We can take the rest from there.
> 
> Martin.

I will be there.

-jon


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Re: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-03-23 at 21:25, Jakarta General Newsgroup wrote:
> Subject: Re: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)
> From: Jon Carnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  ===
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> 
> >
> >> > > 'News' as a measure of activity on a project is effectively useless.
> >> > > Commits/month would be a lot better.
> > True.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> I agree, but you need a purpose for a release. Releasing just so it
> >> happens often is pointless. There should be a consistent amount of
> >> change/bug fixing/docs etc for a release to be made.
> >> 
> > 
> > Agreed.  But thats not a release.  Thats called lying to yourself/others
> > that you have a release when you really just have a build.
> > 
> > -Andy
> 
> I believe that you have to have a release periodically (even if the changes 
> are not dramatic). These things are cyclical.  If you want to keep the 
> focus of your community, you have to generate releases.  Agreed that they 
> should not be pointless, but I can't imagine a truely pointless release.  
> We always have *some* progress. 
> 

I tend to differentiate between "builds" and "releases"

> 
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Re: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)

[@Basebeans.com]

Subject: Re: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)
From: Jon Carnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 ===
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

>
>> > > 'News' as a measure of activity on a project is effectively useless.
>> > > Commits/month would be a lot better.
> True.
> 
> 
> 
>> I agree, but you need a purpose for a release. Releasing just so it
>> happens often is pointless. There should be a consistent amount of
>> change/bug fixing/docs etc for a release to be made.
>> 
> 
> Agreed.  But thats not a release.  Thats called lying to yourself/others
> that you have a release when you really just have a build.
> 
> -Andy

I believe that you have to have a release periodically (even if the changes 
are not dramatic). These things are cyclical.  If you want to keep the 
focus of your community, you have to generate releases.  Agreed that they 
should not be pointless, but I can't imagine a truely pointless release.  
We always have *some* progress. 


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Re: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-03-23 at 17:38, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 24/03/2002 12:39:09 AM:
> 
> > > 'News' as a measure of activity on a project is effectively useless. 
> > > Commits/month would be a lot better.
> > > 
> > 
> > Hummm...I'll put that comment in the pile of "the most important
> > activity in software development is programming" pile of things I
> > disagree with.
> 
> Fine, but since commits aren't just programming, they're also docs, 
> proposals etc, i feel it's a far more valid measure of activity than 
> writing a news article.
> 

True.



> I agree, but you need a purpose for a release. Releasing just so it 
> happens often is pointless. There should be a consistent amount of 
> change/bug fixing/docs etc for a release to be made.
> 

Agreed.  But thats not a release.  Thats called lying to yourself/others
that you have a release when you really just have a build.

-Andy

> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://www.multitask.com.au/developers
-- 
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Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
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Re: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)

[dion]

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 24/03/2002 12:39:09 AM:

> > 'News' as a measure of activity on a project is effectively useless. 
> > Commits/month would be a lot better.
> > 
> 
> Hummm...I'll put that comment in the pile of "the most important
> activity in software development is programming" pile of things I
> disagree with.

Fine, but since commits aren't just programming, they're also docs, 
proposals etc, i feel it's a far more valid measure of activity than 
writing a news article.

> > Given most jakarta projects have a nightly build, releases by 
themselves 
> > aren't as much of a milestone as people would think from the 
commercial 
> > point of view. Take Struts for example. I happily built production 
systems 
> > off pre-1.0 code for many months. There were no new betas, just 
updated 
> > nightly builds. The code was actively being developed, but why waste 
time 
> > on a release if there's no particular purpose?
> > 
> 
> Whoa...dude.. The release is the point when all the edges are smoothed
> and things are tied off.  Release often.  There is a difference between
> a build and a release.  Its the point when an effort is made to make
> sure the documentation matches up and everything is *ready*.  It a
> tracking point in the software lifecycle.  If you never stop the bus
> then when can you paint it?
I agree, but you need a purpose for a release. Releasing just so it 
happens often is pointless. There should be a consistent amount of 
change/bug fixing/docs etc for a release to be made.

--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://www.multitask.com.au/developers

RE: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[Leo Simons]

I'll break my "no-me-too-posts" rule for this occasion:

> Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
> 
> Did I miss anyone?  Great job, guys.  

Definately. Thanks.

- Leo

guess I can deinstall the .net development kit again...for now =)
(and in the line of 'met too's -- I really need JMX opened up!)

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Re: Why Sun won't certify JBoss (was Re:"Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure community sense anymore")

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 3/23/02 12:12 PM, "Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
>> Second, the price of the license will drop if independent
>> implementations are allowed.  For App Servers, I think the barrier of
>> entry is in the difficulty implementating the spec not in the licensing.
>> It's going to be JBoss, Weblogic, and Webspere for a long time. As
>> such, BEA and IBM will be thrilled to see a lower price -- assuming the
>> price was high.
> 
> All this makes me wonder what influence the recently reported comments by
> Sun, disparaging OS access to J2EE in favour of their commercial interests,
> and the bad reaction that it got here and elsewhere, has had on the recent
> JSPA development.
> I'm a cynic when it comes to the motives of Selfless Big Business, and as
> such I see the JSPA announcement having the effect of oil poured on waters
> increasingly troubled on a number of seperate fronts.

What exactly does that mean?

> Perhaps thats being disingenuous towards Sun, or perhaps their PR does have
> that muscle, I honestly don't know.

> Either way I'd like to add my hearty congratulations to all the guys
> invloved in putting the Apache case, and hope that Sun is as good as its
> word, because if I understand the issue correctly it could lead to
> interesting times here and elsewhere.
> 

I think that you will find that this is a step forward - the JSPA vote
showed Sun that there was significant interest in getting the open source
issues as defined by the ASF straightened out - even the 'Yes' votes had
explicit support for the Apache position, and the recent public statements
by Sun are specific to those issues, rather than vague promises.

Sun just didn't do this by themselves - there was a lot of hard work by the
ASF, spearheaded by Jason, Chuck and others, to ensure that this happened.

I am very, very confident things are as they appear.

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin



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Re: Why Sun won't certify JBoss (was Re:"Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure community sense anymore")

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 3/23/02 11:03 AM, "Ceki Gülcü" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 09:50 23.03.2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> On 3/22/02 12:19 PM, "James Strachan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> A thought struck me today which is probably totally obvious to folk but I
>>> thought I'd share it anyways. Sun gets pots of cash from companies who
>>> develop J2EE compliant software from the J2EE license fees. So its in Sun's
>>> interest to protect the BEA's, IBM's and their own J2EE products. The money
>>> they get is based on revenue of the company (so thats quite a lot of money
>>> from BEA & IBM).
>>> 
>>> The money-men at Sun probably see open source J2EE solutions as lost
>> revenue
>>> to possible commercial J2EE solutions so when folks like JBoss come along
>>> they see it as in Sun's interest to not certify them to protect their J2EE
>>> licence revenue nest egg.
>>> 
>>> Though with the .NET competition now I think its in their interest to
>>> protect their J2EE market place by allowing open source solutions;
>> otherwise
>>> long term folks will just move away from J2EE.
>> 
>> I think that it gets even worse for us - it's my understanding that since
>> the J2EE licensees had to pay pots for the license,  bring open-source-able
>> JSR's into that umbrella will dilute the value of the licenses they own.
>> Therefore, it's conceivable that would be a motivation to oppose the opening
>> of the J2EE API's.
> 
> This well may be case. It is pure speculation nonetheless. Or do you
> know something I don't?

I have no solid facts - no one has ever said to me "J2EE licensees protect
their investment...", but it's a reasonable supposition.
 
> 
> First, we don't know how much money Sun gets from licensing.
> 
> Second, the price of the license will drop if independent
> implementations are allowed.

That depends on a few factors, such as what qualifies compatibility, but you
are right, and the recent Great Leap Forward re the JSPA will address that.

> For App Servers, I think the barrier of
> entry is in the difficulty implementating the spec not in the licensing.
> It's going to be JBoss, Weblogic, and Webspere for a long time. As
> such, BEA and IBM will be thrilled to see a lower price -- assuming the
> price was high.

Seems that Macromedia Jrun is trying to compete in the space on price...
And Jboss is a different thing, right?  They pay nothing for the licensing,
but don't get certified as a compatible J2EE impl.

 
> Again, my claims are long on speculation and short on facts.
> 

Me too :)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
My inner cowboy needs to yodel.


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Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation (fwd)

[Stefano Mazzocchi]

Peter Donald wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:00, Jason Hunter wrote:
> > Peter Donald wrote:
> > > Wow this is absolutely fabulous - not what I expected to see - yea!!!
> > >
> > > If some one would bug them to include JMX in their "soon to be blessed"
> > > list then everything that we do at Apache would be legal - woooh!
> >
> > I'll pass that on.
> 
> Thanks for this and everything else you are doing!

Yes, I want to thank Jason, Chuck and the rest of the guys involved in
this for their diplomacy and ability in moving this forward.

Keep up the great work!

I'm very proud of being part of this and I'm sure many others are as
well.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
  able to give birth to a dancing star.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche




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RE: Why Sun won't certify JBoss (was Re: "Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure community sense anymore")

[Danny Angus]

> Second, the price of the license will drop if independent
> implementations are allowed.  For App Servers, I think the barrier of
> entry is in the difficulty implementating the spec not in the licensing.
> It's going to be JBoss, Weblogic, and Webspere for a long time. As
> such, BEA and IBM will be thrilled to see a lower price -- assuming the
> price was high.

All this makes me wonder what influence the recently reported comments by
Sun, disparaging OS access to J2EE in favour of their commercial interests,
and the bad reaction that it got here and elsewhere, has had on the recent
JSPA development.
I'm a cynic when it comes to the motives of Selfless Big Business, and as
such I see the JSPA announcement having the effect of oil poured on waters
increasingly troubled on a number of seperate fronts.
Perhaps thats being disingenuous towards Sun, or perhaps their PR does have
that muscle, I honestly don't know.
Either way I'd like to add my hearty congratulations to all the guys
invloved in putting the Apache case, and hope that Sun is as good as its
word, because if I understand the issue correctly it could lead to
interesting times here and elsewhere.

d.


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Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation (fwd)

[costinm]

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Remy Maucherat wrote:

> > What we must do is make sure that all the libraries implementing JCP
> > specs that we decide to use do get and pass their TCKs.
> >
> > That includes openJMX for tomcat, probably others ( openJMX is probably
> > the most important for most server side projects ).
> 
> Yes indeed. The biggest problem with the agreement is that it is not
> retroactive, and I don't see JMX in the "retroactive" list. Is the JMX TCK
> going to be available anyway ?

Remy, you are asking on the wrong list :-)

Costin


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Re: Why Sun won't certify JBoss (was Re: "Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure community sense anymore")

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 09:50 23.03.2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On 3/22/02 12:19 PM, "James Strachan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > A thought struck me today which is probably totally obvious to folk but I
> > thought I'd share it anyways. Sun gets pots of cash from companies who
> > develop J2EE compliant software from the J2EE license fees. So its in Sun's
> > interest to protect the BEA's, IBM's and their own J2EE products. The money
> > they get is based on revenue of the company (so thats quite a lot of money
> > from BEA & IBM).
> >
> > The money-men at Sun probably see open source J2EE solutions as lost 
> revenue
> > to possible commercial J2EE solutions so when folks like JBoss come along
> > they see it as in Sun's interest to not certify them to protect their J2EE
> > licence revenue nest egg.
> >
> > Though with the .NET competition now I think its in their interest to
> > protect their J2EE market place by allowing open source solutions; 
> otherwise
> > long term folks will just move away from J2EE.
>
>I think that it gets even worse for us - it's my understanding that since
>the J2EE licensees had to pay pots for the license,  bring open-source-able
>JSR's into that umbrella will dilute the value of the licenses they own.
>Therefore, it's conceivable that would be a motivation to oppose the opening
>of the J2EE API's.

This well may be case. It is pure speculation nonetheless. Or do you
know something I don't?

First, we don't know how much money Sun gets from licensing.

Second, the price of the license will drop if independent
implementations are allowed.  For App Servers, I think the barrier of
entry is in the difficulty implementating the spec not in the licensing.
It's going to be JBoss, Weblogic, and Webspere for a long time. As
such, BEA and IBM will be thrilled to see a lower price -- assuming the
price was high.

Again, my claims are long on speculation and short on facts.


--
Ceki

My link of the month: http://java.sun.com/aboutJava/standardization/


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Re: Why Sun won't certify JBoss (was Re:"Jakarta is not an open source project in the pure community sense anymore")

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 3/22/02 12:19 PM, "James Strachan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> A thought struck me today which is probably totally obvious to folk but I
> thought I'd share it anyways. Sun gets pots of cash from companies who
> develop J2EE compliant software from the J2EE license fees. So its in Sun's
> interest to protect the BEA's, IBM's and their own J2EE products. The money
> they get is based on revenue of the company (so thats quite a lot of money
> from BEA & IBM).
> 
> The money-men at Sun probably see open source J2EE solutions as lost revenue
> to possible commercial J2EE solutions so when folks like JBoss come along
> they see it as in Sun's interest to not certify them to protect their J2EE
> licence revenue nest egg.
> 
> Though with the .NET competition now I think its in their interest to
> protect their J2EE market place by allowing open source solutions; otherwise
> long term folks will just move away from J2EE.


I think that it gets even worse for us - it's my understanding that since
the J2EE licensees had to pay pots for the license,  bring open-source-able
JSR's into that umbrella will dilute the value of the licenses they own.
Therefore, it's conceivable that would be a motivation to oppose the opening
of the J2EE API's.

geir


-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin



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Re: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 14:47 22.03.2002 -0800, you wrote:

>- Audience and "Marketing":
>The document is directed towards people who may not be familiar
>with all the projects that exist under the Jakarta umbrella.
>Specifically, it is directed towards users, who hope to find
>something useful for their own projects. (Those users may turn
>into contributors over time!)
>I cannot understand why Leo and Ceki refer to the document (and,
>by implication, others like it) as "Marketing" - a term which
>carries in this context clearly condescending connotations.
>I don't think documentation is marketing - and what I tried to
>provide is simply documentation, not different in principle
>than Javadoc, only at a higher level.

I realize that you spent considerable amount of time editing
the document. I appreciate the effort. I assure you that there is
no condescension on my part, at least not intentional.

The introduction in your email came through as "here is the
solution to all Jakarta's problems." I have a hard time accepting
that as being the truth.

>It is also simply not true, as Ceki believes, that "everybody
>knows Jakarta": from the inside it may be hard to conceive how
>large and confusing the entire Jakarta project can appear to
>the outsider.

The Jakarta brand is very well known. What is less known are the
individual Jakarta subprojects, in particular their relation with each
other.  I doubt the overview document will solve that conundrum.

As I said in my previous comments, I do not have a problem with the
contents of the document per se but the sprit in which it was
presented. IMO, it would have been preferable to work with each
individual subproject rather than start a new body of work but that was
not my decision to make.

Are you willing to continue maintaining it? Make sure that it is
comprehensive, consistent and up to date? What will happen when you
grow tired of it?

Nothing is preventing you from continuing to work on the
overview.  If you persist, my -1 will be withdrawn or overridden. What
is certain is that the overview is yet another brick on of the edifice
of Jakarta.


>Philipp K. Janert, Ph.D.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--
Ceki

My link of the month: http://java.sun.com/aboutJava/standardization/


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POI site now works on NS 4.x

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Hi,

Just wanted to point out that the POI site now works fine in Netscape
4.x. Sorry it took so long, somebody who will remain nameless forgot to
update the site in CVS after he changed it.  (Same issue with the broken
images at the bottom)

-Andy

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Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
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Re: FW: RE: RE: Jakarta Overview

[Andrew C. Oliver]

I should draw you a diagram of "new federalism" it would wreck your
mind... ;-)


On Sat, 2002-03-23 at 05:07, Danny Angus wrote:
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: acoliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> > -- I see a need for more integration documentation and top-down
> > documentation.
> 
> Jakarta isnt heirarchical, at all, and is in fact grossly federal, with
> member projects able to petition to join, cecede, be expelled. There are few
> federal laws, but many local ones which vary from project to project, and
> federal government in the form of the PMC does not represent all the
> interests of each project, or impose homogenaity(or whatever the word is!).
> 
> Therefore "federal" documentation should limit itself to providing a map of
> the member projects, and the location their own documnetation.
> 
> d.
> 
> 
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Document 
format to java
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Re: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-03-23 at 03:42, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Philipp K. Janert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 23/03/2002 09:47:31 AM:
> 
> > 
> [snip]
> > I don't think documentation is marketing - and what I tried to
> > provide is simply documentation, not different in principle
> > than Javadoc, only at a higher level. 
> 
> Except it also contained words such as immature, which border on the 
> emotional.
> 

I don't think he meant any harm.

> [snip]
> > - Users vs Developers
> > I sense a certain ambivalence towards making Jakarta projects 
> > easier to use - Ted, for instance, points out that more users lead 
> 
> I'll take personal exception to that comment. My first patches to a 
> Jakarta project included documentation, and it's one of the main things 
> I've done on Latka at this point. I think we'd all like the projects to be 
> easier to use and understand, but I'll wager not everyone is comfortable 
> that they can do it themselves.
> 

I get the same feeling often.  Granted I think its probably part that
most developers don't feel comfortable with their writing skills.

> [snip]
> [snip]
> > That's great! The "News" section has also disappeared - I consider
> > that a bit sad: I think some measure for the activity of the
> > project would be helpful, but there may be better ways to determine
> > it. I would have thought that the date of the most recent release 
> > would not be considered a "subjective judgement".
> 
> 'News' as a measure of activity on a project is effectively useless. 
> Commits/month would be a lot better.
> 

Hummm...I'll put that comment in the pile of "the most important
activity in software development is programming" pile of things I
disagree with.

> Given most jakarta projects have a nightly build, releases by themselves 
> aren't as much of a milestone as people would think from the commercial 
> point of view. Take Struts for example. I happily built production systems 
> off pre-1.0 code for many months. There were no new betas, just updated 
> nightly builds. The code was actively being developed, but why waste time 
> on a release if there's no particular purpose?
> 

Whoa...dude.. The release is the point when all the edges are smoothed
and things are tied off.  Release often.  There is a difference between
a build and a release.  Its the point when an effort is made to make
sure the documentation matches up and everything is *ready*.  It a
tracking point in the software lifecycle.  If you never stop the bus
then when can you paint it?

> > 
> > The question is: Now what? 
> > 
> > Should we:
> > - collect suggestions to improve the initial draft so that the 
> >   majority here considers it a good thing to have and develop it
> >   further along those line?
> > - leave it as is?
> > - drop it altogether?
> > - replace it with something altogether different?
> 
> Well, it's already being improved by being changed in CVS, and could 
> easily be replaced with something altogether different over time. I'd much 
> rather see the commons stuff removed and a pointer in place to the 
> existing page, and some form of 'activity' in place of what was news.
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://www.multitask.com.au/developers
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: Krysalis, Centipede, Generating docs with Cocoon?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

*shrugs*

On Sat, 2002-03-23 at 00:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 22/03/2002 11:58:20 PM:
> 
> > Perhaps you should contribute to the project. 
> > 
> [snip]
> 
> No point really.
> 
> > 
> > Your message to me suggests that you think I care whether you use
> > centipede or not.  You are mistaken.  It works for me.  If it works for
> > you, cool.  If not, use whatever.  Be free. 
> > 
> > 
> 
> Done. I'll spend my time making site2 a better vehicle for docs.
> 
> > 
> > -Andy
> [snip]
> 
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://www.multitask.com.au/developers
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Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> Sun offered slightly more than we required by granting a large budget
> for TCK support when we only required binary access.  Sun did this
> because they felt support was essential for success, given the current
> test suites and their design.  It may be the first time I've seen Sun
> give more than they had to, and that's reassuring.
> 
> There's more work to be done, but both sides are tired of fighting.  I'm
> sincerely hoping for more cooperation.  And to be honest, if this
> doesn't work, then all faith will be gone and we'll just bug out.
> 

I think there is a sincere effort here.  With that I think I myself will
endeavor to be positive (then again I have next to nothing invested in
the effort so...) and say nice things. :-)

> -jh-
> 
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Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 22:02, James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> On 3/22/02 18:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I can tell you probably don't own a copy of Dr. Strangelove eh?
> 
> Actually no, I never read it. Darn, I hate missing the inside jokes. :)
> 

Its a Stanley Kubrick movie, its even on DVD.  Rent it sometime. 
Anyhow, it was less of an inside joke then a categorization that you
don't have a dark sense of humor :-)

"No fighting in the War Room"!

-Andy

> |* x180:james duncan davidson  [EMAIL PROTECTED] *|
> |* http://www.x180.net/ !try; do() *|
> 
> 
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Re: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 17:47, Philipp K. Janert wrote:
> 
> Dear Friends!
> 
> First off, many thanks to Ted for posting my Draft Jakarta 
> Overview, thus allowing everyone to review it, and many thanks 
> to all who provided feedback on it, for or against.
> 
> I would like to comment on some of the issues raised.
> 
> - Purpose and Redundancy:
> To clarify the intended purpose of the document, it may help
> to explain how it came about: When I started to hang around 
> the Jakarta website, my first desire was to get a good, high-level
> overview, so that I would then know where to dig deeper into those
> projects which are relevant to me. I followed every link on 
> the main page to each individual project's homepage, and then on 
> to the sub-projects where appropriate, compiling exactly the
> information in the submitted document. Took me several days. 
> Assuming that others will have the same experience (and Chris'
> and Endre's emails seem to indicate they do), I decided to make it 
> available.Just having all the information in one place can help a 
> lot! (The overview on the Jakarta homepage, although great, does 
> not contain either subprojects, or status information.)
> 

Agreed, except I don't think your subjective comments are necessarily
appropriate for a top level page.  Its unlikely that in "several days"
you have been able to objectively judge the status of all the projects. 
Such information is the responsibility of those project committers.

> - Audience and "Marketing":
> The document is directed towards people who may not be familiar
> with all the projects that exist under the Jakarta umbrella. 
> Specifically, it is directed towards users, who hope to find
> something useful for their own projects. (Those users may turn
> into contributors over time!)
> I cannot understand why Leo and Ceki refer to the document (and,
> by implication, others like it) as "Marketing" - a term which 
> carries in this context clearly condescending connotations.
> I don't think documentation is marketing - and what I tried to
> provide is simply documentation, not different in principle
> than Javadoc, only at a higher level. 
> It is also simply not true, as Ceki believes, that "everybody 
> knows Jakarta": from the inside it may be hard to conceive how
> large and confusing the entire Jakarta project can appear to 
> the outsider.
> 

Agreed.  I think the "marketing" came out of someone else's comments as
the discussion went on.

> - Users vs Developers
> I sense a certain ambivalence towards making Jakarta projects 
> easier to use - Ted, for instance, points out that more users lead 
> to more support questions (and mailing list discussions, such as 
> this one). But isn't this stance slightly contradictory?
> If you don't want users, why publish your products? (By the way,
> I, as a user, am grateful that you do make them public - and that's 
> why I am trying to support this project where I believe it needs 
> it!) Just for balance, Endre puts usability first - I guess, it's
> a balancing act. 
> 

In general, Jakarta committers vastly underestimate the importance of a
wide audience.  I like what Eric Raymond has to say on the subject in
the Cathedral and the bazzar.  Your users are your testers.  Producing
quality software requires a massive real world validation.  (At least
for something like POI, I could never hope to amass the data that users
have provided).  And as you mention are your pool of new recruits.  For
all of the time they swear they don't want users...if you watch you'll
see them constantly campaign people USE their pet projects.  So this is
IMHO a paper-tiger party line.

> - "Hello, World" and Javadoc:
> Danny suspects that I "have a downer on Javadocs". That is not 
> quite correct. I think Javadocs are great - as a reference. I
> think they are terrible for just finding out what a project is 
> all about. Overview, Tutorial, Reference: three very different 
> things!
> I would like to repeat my conviction that for first-time users 
> (and all of us are at that stage at some point in our lives!) 
> worked examples would be immensely helpful in understanding the 
> scope and purpose of each project. It would be great if this could 
> come either out of the projects themselves, or from the larger
> user community. It is great to see Andrew encourage contribution
> of documentation to individual projects. 
> 

I totally agree.  I have a downer on Javadocs.  Javadocs are the bare
minimum that should be provided.  They are NOT documentation they are
published comments.  API docs are less then sufficient, they are the
pungent glue that real documentation should be pasted upon.  Any project
that says the Javadoc is its documentation, I consider "not ready for
prime-time".  That being said, I take an action approach to this.  As I
have time I contribute documentation to projects that I see that don't
meet my documentation requirements for use.  

> - Personal Assessment and Maintenanc

FW: RE: RE: Jakarta Overview

[Danny Angus]

> -Original Message-
> From: acoliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> -- I see a need for more integration documentation and top-down
> documentation.

Jakarta isnt heirarchical, at all, and is in fact grossly federal, with
member projects able to petition to join, cecede, be expelled. There are few
federal laws, but many local ones which vary from project to project, and
federal government in the form of the PMC does not represent all the
interests of each project, or impose homogenaity(or whatever the word is!).

Therefore "federal" documentation should limit itself to providing a map of
the member projects, and the location their own documnetation.

d.


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RE: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)

[Leo Simons]

> - Audience and "Marketing":
> Specifically, it is directed towards users, who hope to find
> something useful for their own projects. (Those users may turn
> into contributors over time!)

It takes too much effort to support a user base for a project
that changes rapidly (ie any 'alpha' status code). Hence these
parts are not advertised very well. It should stay that way.

> I cannot understand why Leo and Ceki refer to the document (and,
> by implication, others like it) as "Marketing" - a term which 
> carries in this context clearly condescending connotations.

as dion said. When a project you are working on very hard for
a long time is listed as "immature" or something like that, it
is very hard to find the right wording for a response.

> - Users vs Developers

again, I personally distinguish between alpha, beta and final
releases. You only offer "support" (answers to mailing list
questions) for released products.

> - Personal Assessment and Maintenance:
> In terms of maintenance: Once everything is set up, this should
> not take too much effort (just updates of revision numbers and
> release dates, really). I think I also hinted (cough) that I
> might be willing to help with that (to the degree that I have
> available resources, of course) provided that maintaining such
> an overview document at all is solidly supported by the community.

as we say: documentation is always welcome!

> Now what? 
> =
> 
> The "News" section has also disappeared - I consider
> that a bit sad: I think some measure for the activity of the
> project would be helpful, but there may be better ways to determine
> it. I would have thought that the date of the most recent release 
> would not be considered a "subjective judgement".

it's simply not a good indicator. FA, almost nothing happens
over at Avalon Framework, but it gets more releases than the
way more busy other Avalon parts because it is, well, released.

> Should we:
> - collect suggestions to improve the initial draft so that the 
>   majority here considers it a good thing to have and develop it
>   further along those line?
> - leave it as is?
> - drop it altogether?
> - replace it with something altogether different?

it should, -- after consent by others here -- be merged with the
current overview on the front page. That's imho, of course.

greetz,

- Leo Simons

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Re: Now what? (was: Jakarta Overview)

[dion]

Philipp K. Janert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 23/03/2002 09:47:31 AM:

> 
[snip]
> I don't think documentation is marketing - and what I tried to
> provide is simply documentation, not different in principle
> than Javadoc, only at a higher level. 

Except it also contained words such as immature, which border on the 
emotional.

[snip]
> - Users vs Developers
> I sense a certain ambivalence towards making Jakarta projects 
> easier to use - Ted, for instance, points out that more users lead 

I'll take personal exception to that comment. My first patches to a 
Jakarta project included documentation, and it's one of the main things 
I've done on Latka at this point. I think we'd all like the projects to be 
easier to use and understand, but I'll wager not everyone is comfortable 
that they can do it themselves.

[snip]
[snip]
> That's great! The "News" section has also disappeared - I consider
> that a bit sad: I think some measure for the activity of the
> project would be helpful, but there may be better ways to determine
> it. I would have thought that the date of the most recent release 
> would not be considered a "subjective judgement".

'News' as a measure of activity on a project is effectively useless. 
Commits/month would be a lot better.

Given most jakarta projects have a nightly build, releases by themselves 
aren't as much of a milestone as people would think from the commercial 
point of view. Take Struts for example. I happily built production systems 
off pre-1.0 code for many months. There were no new betas, just updated 
nightly builds. The code was actively being developed, but why waste time 
on a release if there's no particular purpose?

> 
> The question is: Now what? 
> 
> Should we:
> - collect suggestions to improve the initial draft so that the 
>   majority here considers it a good thing to have and develop it
>   further along those line?
> - leave it as is?
> - drop it altogether?
> - replace it with something altogether different?

Well, it's already being improved by being changed in CVS, and could 
easily be replaced with something altogether different over time. I'd much 
rather see the commons stuff removed and a pointer in place to the 
existing page, and some form of 'activity' in place of what was news.
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