Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On 8/10/02 1:30 am, Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JSPs are the root of all evil because HTMLers think to have the power (and obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in less than 2 minutes of uptime... To that respect, even ASP are better... It is so nice to hear you say that finally Pier. =) I still think that the optimal solution is a true SOC using XML, but the world is too stupid to understand that... All everyone wants is a quick and dirty solution... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On 8/10/02 3:09 am, Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does c stand for? Oh wait...explain that to your designers. Also, I believe you forgot a bunch of other junk that you have to put at the top of the file or in configuration files to configure what c means anyway. It is quite funny to me to see you try to justify something that is obviously more difficult to understand and write. I just _wish_ I could send you the source of this: http://www.vnunet.com/ It's a JSP, using 6 different tag libraries, a collection of roughly 30/40 different tags, and spread across (I believe) 10? different files... I haven't seen something worse in a _long_ time... Especially when to redirect images to the images server, your tags start looking like: IMG SRC=%vnunet:getImagePath()%/myimage.jpg ALT=... Tag'na tag... That's QTE... Bah... Pier (I'm going to go on holiday, soon) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
-Original Message-
From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
snip/
The above could just as easily be written as:
html
headtitleHello/title/head
body
h1
#if (!$name)
Hello World
#else
Hello, $name
#end
/h1
/body/html
Ah, well that looks a bit better than what is promoted as the Velocity way
at the link you provided. You might want to update that page, along with an
update to the JSP/JSTL way of doing things, if you're serious about
providing a comparison.
No method calls. Let's see how easy you can make the JSTL equivalent.
I see no syntax changes, only new tags and attributes.
Actually, the syntax changed quite a lot...a simple if
statement went from
a single element (which made no sense) to a multiple element
syntax (clearly
to support what XSLT doeswhich IMHO only complicates
things even further
because XSLT is even further above what most designers understand...):
from:
logic:notPresent parameter=name
to:
c:choose
c:when test=${empty param.name}
The language syntax did not change at all. What did change was the way in
which the page developer elected to perform a given task. He/she had the
choice of which syntax to use. Of course, you're going to tell me that that
is something that never happens with Velocity...
What does c stand for? Oh wait...explain that to your
designers.
Gee, Jon, I was led to believe you are a smart guy... You can specify
whatever prefix you want, so if you want to use tags like:
jonHatesJsp:out value=Jon is God/
you are perfectly free to do so.
Also, I
believe you forgot a bunch of other junk that you have to put
at the top of
the file or in configuration files to configure what c means anyway.
A bunch of junk? One line:
%@ taglib prefix=c uri=http://java.sun.com/jstl/core; %
Oh, and it's real hard to change 'c' to 'core' or whatever you want it to
be...
It is quite funny to me to see you try to justify something that is
obviously more difficult to understand and write.
I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm happy using what I'm using, and
thousands of other people are too. If you're happy using what you're using,
that's cool too.
I find it even more amusing to see you try to defend
-jon
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RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
PHP 5 and MySQL 4 will make java, .Net, and all similar technologies obsolete. Said one manager to another manager on a golf court, after having spent the weekend with his 12 year old son who built the school website. It took me a week ton convince the another manager that it might not be a good idea to start building our SOAP services in PHP. I still think that the optimal solution is a true SOC using XML, but the world is too stupid to understand that... All everyone wants is a quick and dirty solution... Yeah, well, you can edit PHP pages in dreamweaver, and manage your MySQL databases with it too, all automatically, so who needs programmers anymore anyway? Says the 12 year old. The world, stupid? Nah. People would never choose a technically inferior VCR. We're going to win this. cheers, Leo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
Pier Fumagalli wrote: I believe that Andy doesn't quite know what templates are ! :-) Dude, we're not talking about the beauty of XML around here, but stuff that Macromedia DreamWeaver can parse and (somehow) render! :-) In my shop we've gone our own way, with our own templating sytem targetting Dreamweaver users specifically. Its been our experience that web designers shouldn't write jsps, but that servlet writers should, because it makes their html errors easier to fix. So, for the last year we'd automated conversion of the static mockups the web designers do into jsps using the struts taglibs, with hooks to allow replacement of links to static pages by links to struts actions, and so on. Active portions of the pages were developed as jsp's that got included by the struts template library (we identified replaceable chunks using id attributes, similarly to xmlc). The code to do this was written in house as an ant task, and took about 10 man days. Over the course of time the amount of static content has come to dominate and the speed of the jsps had become an issue. We originally converted to jsps because it would allow the developers to fix up any conversion problems quickly, but in fact this rarely if ever happened. Also, we didn't make enough use of the fact that the web designers developed using their own templating system (the .dwt/.lbi sytem in dreamweaver). So now we're doing the same static-dynamic conversion on the fly, replacing DreamWeaver's .dwt template #BeginEditable... and #BeginLibraryItem... sections instead of the id-attributed elements we used before. The whole thing is now data-driven rather than compiled, and is much faster than the old jsps. The java developers do the rump of the code that needs to be dynamic, using the same included jsps; but there are far, far fewer jsps in the sites now - 125 instead of 1154 in one of them. Its much faster than the jsps, and has taken all of the static content out of the webapp. I've never been that happy with templating languages - they just seem to shift the problem from html-in-code to code-in-html. By using struts and driving the look from a static site we have very little of either. The closest things to what we're doing I could find were xmlc and jdynamite[1]. xmlc was a no-go area for us because of its use of jtidy - the html emitted is not the html you put in; and our approach needed less coding than jdynamite, partly since the chunks we replace with dynamic code are quite coarse. I've tried the xml/xsl-based site thing too, in another company - it made some sense there because they had wml and webtv sites on top of the html ones (25 sites in all, all based off the same content). However it was dog slow (the xalan compiler wasn't out yet) and there aren't enough folk competent in xsl to maintain stuff like that. Its horses for courses though. We have a marketing-driven website, with a lot of mainly-static content, which needs to be reskinned for deployment with many customers. On the other hand we also develop an intranet application - which is essentially a standard GUI app but deployed over the web - where something like Tapestry would be more appropriate, as the developers are much more involved in the GUI. -Baz [1]http://jdynamite.sourceforge.net/doc/jdynamite_sf.html Privacy and Confidentiality Notice The information contained in this E-Mail message is intended only for the person or persons to whom it is addressed. Such information is confidential and privileged and no mistake in transmission is intended to waive or compromise such privilege. If you have received it in error, please destroy it and notify us on the telephone number printed above. If you do not receive complete and legible copies, please telephone us immediately. Any opinions expressed herein including attachments are those of the author only. i-documentsystems Ltd. does not accept responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of the information provided or for any changes to this Email, however made, after it was sent. (Please note that it is your responsibility to scan this message for viruses). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
(fun tread: tea, tapestry, no one said the other one http://www.salmonllc.com/website/Jsp/vanity/Jade.jsp ) This presentation/vie layer stuff is a popular topic. Rumor is that JSR 127 (JS Faces) could allow for emitting of http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/ and do all rendering on browser via JavaScript, if I understood right, thus of loading processing, but there is a spec to interpret, you know where. In case you missed it.: I write to say perhaps you would want to *see http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/community/chat/ today*, I think 2PM eastern? Very famous speaker ... and you can ask questions. I wish there was an open source implementation of such components wait, what an idea? I will try for something on sourceforge soon, maybe wait for ea 3. hth, .V ps: somewhat related, but not a great implementations and not standard: http://demo.vultus.com, http://www.iternum.com/i3test/index.jsp, http://www.droplets.com) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
I both agree and disagree with you. The trouble is that XSLT syntax is
horrific and some of the specs (for a specific example the XInclude
spec) are bent on violating SoC more than embedding if statements ever
could (having to declare a base url is a greater evil).
There is a production concern that I keep hearing over and over about
how to let the art-crowd work on the HTML. And I think a better XML
solution combined with better tools could solve that. Unfortunately it
is unlikely that these will be developed in a recession, and while I
have some ideas on how this would be done, I hate GUI programming.
The trick is to divide your stylesheet out to include content from an
XHTML template with marker nodes which are basically ignored by the
WYSIWIG editor (btw I'm not arguing that such tools are good...I've yet
to find one that doesn't produce crap code). The WYSIWIG edits this
template which is included by the stylesheet. Your data passes
through the stylesheet, the template has nodes included, and your web
designer doesn't have to learn HTML (ha ha).
The other challenge is that HTML just sucks totally... (I figure while
I'm slaughtering the sacred cows I might as well get out the Gatling gun
and kill the lead cow of them all).. However...I think we're stuck with
it for quite some time.
The anti-pattern to this is that it takes forever to get an XSLT page
right... Don't get me wrong... I like XSLT and I think is the right
solution (minus its crappy syntax), but its a forethought versus an
afterthought technology. Meaning you pay up front. Business hates
this, they'd rather think only about the present, get it out
quickly...then pay all along over and over again. (The logic defies me
but I hold this truth to be self-evident).
The other anti-pattern is that XML is a hodgepodge of X* stuff and JAX*
stuff. No cohesive architecture to any of the various X*/JAX* stuff.
And working with others in XML stuff is awful! I like and want to use
SAX, no I like JDOM, but I want to pass you JDOM objects...but I need
DOM objects... (and don't even get me started on XML jar version hell).
What JSP/Struts and Velocity/and friends give you is a bit more of a
cohesive architecture. What they don't give you is an elegant way to
separate concerns. Possibly Avalon does this (to some degree) but it
only covers a subset of what you need and furthermore it goes out of its
way to define far to many is a relationships just to avoid having
default implementations (public void init() {/*empty designated by
interface}). The cost is often a design with too many
SameThingAsBOnlyIsAlsoComposableButNotConfigrable type classes... plus
long inheritance trees to aggregate them all together.. And at the
end...you still don't have a way to stick stuff in your HTML or stick
HTML around your stuff.
So putting out crap code that you have to toggle and mess with over and
over again is where the money is at in web app development. So what is
the solution? There isn't one...web app development is still a big
hairy mess. Choice is good. ;-)
-Andy
On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 04:04, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
On 8/10/02 1:30 am, Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
JSPs are the root of all evil because HTMLers think to have the power (and
obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in
less than 2 minutes of uptime... To that respect, even ASP are better...
It is so nice to hear you say that finally Pier. =)
I still think that the optimal solution is a true SOC using XML, but the
world is too stupid to understand that... All everyone wants is a quick and
dirty solution...
Pier
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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So putting out crap code that you have to toggle and mess with over and over again is where the money is at in web app development. So what is the solution? There isn't one...web app development is still a big hairy mess. Choice is good. ;-) Well put, not only this last part, but the whole... True, XML is a good approach from a technical point of view, but unusable from some others (don't ask me to teach XSLT to our web guys, please!). JSPs can work for some, but they definitely introduce drawbacks when thinking how they are implemented (they destroy my servlet container). Velocity is simple, doesn't mess around with my servlets, but it's interpreted. Tea is fast, quite easy, but again the syntax is bad... There is _no_optimal_ solution... Just the one that works for you... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
Its too bad that the clans don't play nice together... I'm convinced together... They could come up with something MUCH MUCH better than this mess. (provided some GUI wonks could be found) ;-) (and there is my theme) ;-) -Andy On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 10:42, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So putting out crap code that you have to toggle and mess with over and over again is where the money is at in web app development. So what is the solution? There isn't one...web app development is still a big hairy mess. Choice is good. ;-) Well put, not only this last part, but the whole... True, XML is a good approach from a technical point of view, but unusable from some others (don't ask me to teach XSLT to our web guys, please!). JSPs can work for some, but they definitely introduce drawbacks when thinking how they are implemented (they destroy my servlet container). Velocity is simple, doesn't mess around with my servlets, but it's interpreted. Tea is fast, quite easy, but again the syntax is bad... There is _no_optimal_ solution... Just the one that works for you... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On 10/7/02 9:56 PM, Martin Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, Martin Cooper
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Of course, I know Velocity fans won't like this any better,
but if you bring
the JSP example on that page up to date, using JSTL, you'll
have this:
c:choose
c:when test=${empty param.name}
Hello World
/c:when
c:otherwise
Hello, c:out value=${param.name}/
/c:otherwise
/c:choose
I dunno about you, but I would much rather teach my
non-programmer designers
to type:
#if ($foo)
Hello, $foo
#else
Hello World
#end
You mean this, taken from the page, don't you?
html
headtitleHello/title/head
body
h1
#if ($request.getParameter(name) == null)
Hello World
#else
Hello, $request.getParameter(name)
#end
/h1
/body/html
At least if you're using JSP/JSTL, you don't have to explain method calls to
your non-programmer designers.
I was trying to stay out, but this *always* comes up in these discussions,
and I think it's somewhat disingenuous. First, you have a similar thing in
JSTL, and one added and desginers who work with JavaScript on the client
side get method calls.
It's not differnet than
Than the bunch of pseudo XML programming language junk you quoted
above...ouch, my hands hurt just looking at that...oh wait, people are
supposed to use GUI drag and drop for all of that
stuff...yea...right...
Oh yea, should I mention that Velocity syntax has remained
unchanged since
it was first released as 1.0 (back in April 2001)? I wonder
how many times
JSP/JSTL/Struts/FooBar syntax will need to be brought 'up to date'...
I see no syntax changes, only new tags and attributes.
--
Martin Cooper
WAKE UP PEOPLE.
-jon
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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On 10/8/02 12:13 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/7/02 9:56 PM, Martin Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, Martin Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course, I know Velocity fans won't like this [SNIP] At least if you're using JSP/JSTL, you don't have to explain method calls to your non-programmer designers. I was trying to stay out, but this *always* comes up in these discussions, and I think it's somewhat disingenuous. First, you have a similar thing in JSTL, and one added and desginers who work with JavaScript on the client side get method calls. It's not differnet than Sorry - this was a misfire. I didn't complete this... The point was that designers have experience with methods as they call them in JavaScript, and JSTL has operators as well. Like 'empty', right? -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]+1-203-355-2219 (w) Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Struts and Tomcat 4.0
Hello , we have developed a web site in which we have implemented struts for designing the page , this works fine on Apache and jsp engine from oracle (9ias) but we now have to move the web site to apache and tomcat environment. the jsp pages are compiling fine on this env. but only the header part of the jsp is displayed. The operating system is sun . the struts.jar are present tomcat lib directories. tlds are present in WEB-INF directory and web.xml is also present. does anyone knows why this is happining thanking you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
I was trying to stay out, but this *always* comes up in these discussions,
and I think it's somewhat disingenuous. First, you have a similar thing in
JSTL, and one added and desginers who work with JavaScript on the client
side get method calls.
It's not differnet than
Sorry - this was a misfire. I didn't complete this...
The point was that designers have experience with methods as they call them
in JavaScript, and JSTL has operators as well. Like 'empty', right?
designers don't seem to even understand much of the javascript they use.
Things like the 'behaviours' mechanism in DreamWeaver mean they don't
even have to look at it - the code is inserted for them. After some
education, our local webmonkey understands why this:
a href=foo.html target=bar onclick=window.open(this.href,
this.target,); return false
is better than this:
a href=# onclick=MM_popup('foo.html', 'bar',) [1]
but I still couldn't get him to use it consistently - editing in the
correct JS - until I made him add it as a behaviour in DW. The point is,
designers who are good at both the code side and the art side are rare
(and therefore expensive). I can see why people prefer velocity to JSP,
but why should we expect designers to be comfortable with any
embed-code-in-html solutions when we are all so /un/comfortable with
embed-html-in-code solutions?
What makes me the most ill-at-ease is that when we move from static
mockups to a dynamic site with templating languages (of any colour),
templating demands that we replicate and alter the artifacts produced by
the web designer[2]. We wouldn't accept this if it was java rather than
html we were dealing with - we'd take the layout code and hook it up to
the logic layer with some (hopefully minimal) glue code. XMLC, for
example, shows that this approach can work. Just a thought.
-Baz
[1] MM_popup - or something like this, I forget the exact name they use
- is a wrapper DW puts around window.open(). The second sample is what
DW puts in for popup windows, and it doesnt do its job properly in any
circumstances, let alone when JS is disabled.
[2] You can argue that the web designers should produce dynamic code,
but static mockups are always produced first. So the
replication/alteration will always be done by someone with the
templating approach.
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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
on 2002/10/8 1:14 AM, Martin Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find it even more amusing to see you try to defend I never defend. I only offend by exposing the truth. =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
on 2002/10/8 2:42 AM, Leo Simons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PHP 5 and MySQL 4 will make java, .Net, and all similar technologies obsolete. Said one manager to another manager on a golf court, after having spent the weekend with his 12 year old son who built the school website. It took me a week ton convince the another manager that it might not be a good idea to start building our SOAP services in PHP. I still think that the optimal solution is a true SOC using XML, but the world is too stupid to understand that... All everyone wants is a quick and dirty solution... Yeah, well, you can edit PHP pages in dreamweaver, and manage your MySQL databases with it too, all automatically, so who needs programmers anymore anyway? Says the 12 year old. The world, stupid? Nah. People would never choose a technically inferior VCR. We're going to win this. cheers, Leo I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the StudioZ.tv website in PHP4 on OSX. It is a pretty cool webapp that has really transformed things for us and made my life MUCH easier (the office staff can fully manage the events that show up on the website via a browser). I incorporate several technologies into the site (including a cool XML-RPC interface that talks to presaleticketing.com to tell us how many tickets have been sold). I used PHP because it was quick and easy and I didn't have time to 'design' the application. The only thing that sucks is that the code is a complete hack that is going to be terrible to maintain over the long term and half the time, I can't figure out why something does or doesn't work. =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
on 2002/10/8 8:41 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's why Velocity is as fast as JSP. geir ...if not faster... -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts and Tomcat 4.0
on 2002/10/8 9:39 AM, amar bhatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello , we have developed a web site in which we have implemented struts for designing the page , this works fine on Apache and jsp engine from oracle (9ias) but we now have to move the web site to apache and tomcat environment. the jsp pages are compiling fine on this env. but only the header part of the jsp is displayed. The operating system is sun . the struts.jar are present tomcat lib directories. tlds are present in WEB-INF directory and web.xml is also present. does anyone knows why this is happining thanking you If only you had used Velocity (which is also FAR more portable than JSP as you don't have to work around bugs or design decisions in each individual container)...only one implementation of Velocity will ever be needed... =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts and Tomcat 4.0
I think my next hack'd app will be in Velocity rather than JSP. As I learn more about it I think I find it less disgusting than JSP. (Although I still don't like it for the previously mentioned reasons) Even if it ties me to an Apache-proprietary template language, trading that for something less disgusting than JSP seems preferable. Still I don't find myself very enthusiastic about it.. . (What sucks less instead of what is good) I still think Cocoon has the most potential of the bunch... It just needs to be refactored...heavily(and me without my chainsaw). Not sure if this will happen...it smells of an app with too many cooks in the kitchen. -Andy On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 15:13, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2002/10/8 9:39 AM, amar bhatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello , we have developed a web site in which we have implemented struts for designing the page , this works fine on Apache and jsp engine from oracle (9ias) but we now have to move the web site to apache and tomcat environment. the jsp pages are compiling fine on this env. but only the header part of the jsp is displayed. The operating system is sun . the struts.jar are present tomcat lib directories. tlds are present in WEB-INF directory and web.xml is also present. does anyone knows why this is happining thanking you If only you had used Velocity (which is also FAR more portable than JSP as you don't have to work around bugs or design decisions in each individual container)...only one implementation of Velocity will ever be needed... =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the StudioZ.tv website in PHP4 on OSX. Hey, that looks like maven! :P It is a pretty cool webapp that has really transformed things for us and made my life MUCH easier (the office staff can fully manage the events that show up on the website via a browser). I incorporate several technologies into the site (including a cool XML-RPC interface that talks to presaleticketing.com to tell us how many tickets have been sold). I used PHP because it was quick and easy and I didn't have time to 'design' the application. We use PHP all the time (I sometimes call it InstantCMS) and it is a great tool for whacking up a dynamic website. It's just that creating enterprise SOAP services in it that talk to oracle on one side and delphi clients on the other is painful. Or running a site with like 10,000,000 articles and as many visitors/day. The only thing that sucks is that the code is a complete hack that is going to be terrible to maintain over the long term and half the time, I can't figure out why something does or doesn't work. =) There's several more things...I just always remember that PHP used to stand for Personal Home Page =) cheers, Leo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 00:14, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Possibly Avalon does this (to some degree) but it
only covers a subset of what you need and furthermore it goes out of its
way to define far to many is a relationships just to avoid having
default implementations (public void init() {/*empty designated by
interface}). The cost is often a design with too many
SameThingAsBOnlyIsAlsoComposableButNotConfigrable type classes... plus
long inheritance trees to aggregate them all together..
I think you will find most (all?) Avalon people hate deep inheritance (kinda
obvious given that it is a component framework) so whoever has this sort of
behaviour is misusing Avalon.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit. -- Maugham
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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
on 2002/10/8 2:32 PM, Leo Simons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the StudioZ.tv website in PHP4 on OSX. Hey, that looks like maven! :P Actually, it looks like CollabNet's SourceCast. Scarab looks like SourceCast and Maven looks like Scarab. =) We use PHP all the time (I sometimes call it InstantCMS) and it is a great tool for whacking up a dynamic website. It's just that creating enterprise SOAP services in it that talk to oracle on one side and delphi clients on the other is painful. Or running a site with like 10,000,000 articles and as many visitors/day. It is more than that though...it is about long term code design and maintainability. My pages are FULL of code...that is just evil. Even worse is that there is no way around that unless I use a template system within PHP! Yuck! If I want to have a central repo of functions and classes to use, I have to include the entire file just to get at one function (or embed each function in a different file which sucks just as badly). Yuck! If I want a database connection, I have to include a file to get it. Yuck. Interestingly enough, I did write a quick little framework that works very similar to Turbine and has the same concept of users/roles/permissions. =) There's several more things...I just always remember that PHP used to stand for Personal Home Page =) Which is when I originally started using it (pre 1.0 days). =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
Bingo! At 10:55 AM 10/8/2002 -0400, you wrote: Its too bad that the clans don't play nice together... I'm convinced together... They could come up with something MUCH MUCH better than this mess. (provided some GUI wonks could be found) ;-) (and there is my theme) ;-) -Andy On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 10:42, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So putting out crap code that you have to toggle and mess with over and over again is where the money is at in web app development. So what is the solution? There isn't one...web app development is still a big hairy mess. Choice is good. ;-) Well put, not only this last part, but the whole... True, XML is a good approach from a technical point of view, but unusable from some others (don't ask me to teach XSLT to our web guys, please!). JSPs can work for some, but they definitely introduce drawbacks when thinking how they are implemented (they destroy my servlet container). Velocity is simple, doesn't mess around with my servlets, but it's interpreted. Tea is fast, quite easy, but again the syntax is bad... There is _no_optimal_ solution... Just the one that works for you... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
At 12:07 08.10.2002 -0700, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the StudioZ.tv website in PHP4 on OSX. It is a pretty cool webapp that has really transformed things for us and made my life MUCH easier (the office staff can fully manage the events that show up on the website via a browser). I incorporate several technologies into the site (including a cool XML-RPC interface that talks to presaleticketing.com to tell us how many tickets have been sold). I used PHP because it was quick and easy and I didn't have time to 'design' the application. The only thing that sucks is that the code is a complete hack that is going to be terrible to maintain over the long term and half the time, I can't figure out why something does or doesn't work. It is surprising that a Java expert with monumental contributions to this community would not use Java technology to create his website. Is this a case of do as I say, not as I do? Of course one is free to try new approaches but the anecdote is still quite telling. Cool-looking site by the way. =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- Ceki TCP implementations will follow a general principle of robustness: be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others. -- Jon Postel, RFC 793 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
I disagree with such Java Jingoism. Jon's reasoning sounded pretty good to me. . Launching several JVMs sucks. And doing all in one is a recipe for disaster... (crash bang boom) This is a sucky thing about java. You get a JVM always whether you want one or not.. to do it in java he needs a mod_java with GCJ. (That actually sounds kinda cool) -Andy On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 18:39, Ceki Gülcü wrote: At 12:07 08.10.2002 -0700, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the StudioZ.tv website in PHP4 on OSX. It is a pretty cool webapp that has really transformed things for us and made my life MUCH easier (the office staff can fully manage the events that show up on the website via a browser). I incorporate several technologies into the site (including a cool XML-RPC interface that talks to presaleticketing.com to tell us how many tickets have been sold). I used PHP because it was quick and easy and I didn't have time to 'design' the application. The only thing that sucks is that the code is a complete hack that is going to be terrible to maintain over the long term and half the time, I can't figure out why something does or doesn't work. It is surprising that a Java expert with monumental contributions to this community would not use Java technology to create his website. Is this a case of do as I say, not as I do? Of course one is free to try new approaches but the anecdote is still quite telling. Cool-looking site by the way. =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- Ceki TCP implementations will follow a general principle of robustness: be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others. -- Jon Postel, RFC 793 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
Pier Fumagalli wrote: On 8/10/02 1:30 am, Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JSPs are the root of all evil because HTMLers think to have the power (and obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in less than 2 minutes of uptime... To that respect, even ASP are better... It is so nice to hear you say that finally Pier. =) I still think that the optimal solution is a true SOC using XML, but the world is too stupid to understand that... All everyone wants is a quick and dirty solution... Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer. I tried to convince my boss that a certain customization required so many fundamental changes that it would be quicker and easier to develop/maintain if we did it right. He told me that he would never be able to convince the CEO that was the right choice, so the Quick and Dirty route was the choice--taking me twice as long to get it done. -- They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
on 2002/10/8 3:39 PM, Ceki Gülcü [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is surprising that a Java expert with monumental contributions to this community would not use Java technology to create his website. Is this a case of do as I say, not as I do? Of course one is free to try new approaches but the anecdote is still quite telling. Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the best code for the long term. PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the crappiest code for the long term. I develop Scarab in Java because it is going to live far longer than I do and needs a solid base to work from. I develop my bar's website in PHP because I just needed to get the job done quickly and was not concerned with code quality. I could have used JSP to develop the site and considered that for about 2 seconds and then puked. I would use ASP or PHP LONG before I would even go there with JSP. Personally, I think taglibs are stupid. XML IS NOT A PROGAMMING LANGUAGE. Cool-looking site by the way. Thanks! And you can only see a small portion of it since the rest is protected by login. =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
