Re: Standard Change Log and ToDo

2001-12-12 Thread Jon Stevens

on 12/12/01 2:05 PM, Paul Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Jakarta projects use
 Anakia, but I have not found any macros in Jakarta-site2 that reference
 a Change Log or To Do list.
 
 Paul Spencer

+1. 

Feel free to add some...

-jon


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Re: Standard Change Log and ToDo

2001-12-12 Thread Jon Stevens

on 12/12/01 3:19 PM, Kevin A. Burton - burtonator [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Enlighten me... what are the benefits of an XML based changelog... besides the
 ability to XSLT it into html (I don't think this is necessary).

Eewww...XSLT...

How about being able to transform it into a ChangeLog.txt and a
ChangeLog.html?

-jon


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

2001-12-10 Thread Jon Stevens

on 12/10/01 4:43 PM, Scott Tavares [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Nope!!! jon is a complete ASSHOLE! If YAFF happens it is jon's fault!
 Put the responsibility where it belongs... on jon. It's him that keeps
 creating these commotions needlessly.

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html

p.s. Scott, I love you too.

-jon


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

2001-12-10 Thread Jon Stevens

on 12/10/01 6:14 PM, Scott Tavares [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 You also know that I haven't contributed to the Jakarta project in close to
 three years now because you insulted me one too many times.

Lame excuse. Life is full of people you may not like. If you use that as
your excuse for not participating in things, then you might as well not
leave your house either.

The Jakarta project also isn't just me, there are more than enough projects
here that I don't participate in at all and since this is a Meritocracy
founded around the developers, your voice (and complaints) do not have any
weight unless you actually contribute something. People need to realize that
this is not a democracy.

In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are just
leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the Jakarta
project and using emails from me that you may not like as your excuse. I
find that far more offensive than anything I could flame you about.

-jon


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

2001-12-09 Thread Jon Stevens

Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
sense.

-jon

on 12/9/01 3:57 AM, Frans Thamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear All,,
 
 Do you know where the list for comment the apache.org web site..
 
 Is there a team that responsible for managing the projects of apache
 projects.
 
 Like in Apache XML may be there is a team that manage that.
 
 I have been working several years in IT, and managing the project. There is
 a methodology to make a project clear..
 
 I cannot find it in Apache..
 
 Because as a model of open source development for volunteer.. Apache's
 project can lost his leader or creator.. may be he is busy, or interest in
 several project.
 
 but as an Apache.. you must responsible for managing this..
 
 sample..
 
 Cocoon is create by Stefano, what happen if he is very very busy.. who must
 handle this project. And who will responsible for next release.. only
 stefano or everyone.. who interest.. with VOTE of course..
 
 I love a clear project. and it will easy to understand and follow.. trust
 me.. there will be thousands people involve with this.. if everyone can
 understand and use it easily..
 
 Honestly, Apache project is very great.. i love it.
 
 
 
 Thanks.
 
 Frans


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Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds

2001-12-06 Thread Jon Stevens

on 12/5/01 11:27 PM, Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 As a case in point, I would like to point out EJB CMP as an example of
 design-driven technology which may very well look really stupid in
 another few years, especially given its atrociously slow mutation rate.
 If anyone who was writing this crap (the spec) was actually *using* it,
 it would probably allow for automatic generation of freaking primary
 keys...
 
 Jeff Schnitzer
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The same can be said of JSP.

Last time I talked to Eduardo (the spec lead for JSP) he still had never
written a real webapp with it.

Lemmings!

-jon


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Re: commentary by Linus Torvalds

2001-12-06 Thread Jon Stevens

on 12/6/01 2:05 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Last time I talked to Eduardo (the spec lead for JSP) he still had never
 written a real webapp with it.
 
 Lemmings!
 
 Isn't the JDK 1.4's logging API story similar?
 
 The guys did not pay that much attention to Ceki's remarks, did they?
 And in terms of logging-in-Java, Ceki is THE authority, isn't he?
 =:o/

Lemmings like to follow patterns.

-jon


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Re: ASP.NET Linux equivalent?

2001-12-04 Thread Jon Stevens

on 12/3/01 9:14 PM, achawathe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Friend ,
 
   You should be aware of N tier logic which is developed by Sun
 Microsystems . MIcrosoft are just on the brink of it by adapting the three
 tier logic for it .
 
  Hope that you give a good look to Java , Jsp and ejb
 
 Cheers Amol

Wow. I'm always impressed by how well Sun's marketing works. I bet they
could also get all you lemmings to jump off a bridge.

-jon


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FW: Cross Site Scripting holes abound

2001-11-25 Thread Jon Stevens

Sigh.

-jon

-- Forwarded Message
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 17 Nov 2001 02:05:53 -
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Cross Site Scripting holes abound

Mailer: SecurityFocus

:::  Summary   

   Over a year and a half since CERT issued
warning on Cross Site Scripting, most dynamic
websites are _still_ not filtering user input.  This
lets remote sites access to write scripts on vunlerable
sites, stealing cookies, performing actions on behalf
of user or modifying look of content on site.  I did a
quick 
check of the top 15 sites (and other sites I use) and
found holes in _most_ of them.

:::  Sites Affected :::
   
   http://www.microsoft.com/
   http://www.msnbc.com/
   http://www.oracle.com/
   http://www.about.com/
   http://www.doubleclick.net/
   http://www.netscape.com/
   http://www.paypal.com/
   http://www.google.com/
   ... many more not listed

:::  Details  

   In general, if you can replace any url parameter with
scriptalert(document.cookie)/script
 and you get an alert, the site may be vulnerable.

   Samples and details listed at
  http://www.devitry.com/security.html

The samples on the above site take it one step
futher and send the cookie data to another site.

Even https sites are vulnerable since cookie data
is available to javascript on page.

  Fix  : 

  You should validate or filter all user input, including
hidden form fields and id's passed in url's before
the data is written out to the page.  Any poorly
written script on your whole domain could give you
problems.  (even old ones that do nothing like
testenv)  Filtering or encoding is should be done
for  , ,  and sometimes '

  You should monitor for script passed in url's to
your site... However, blocking in the url alone
is not good enough as the parameter could be passed
in POST data. 

  For sites that have your data, you should always
log out at the end of your session, and you should
not surf more then one site at a time.

:::  Discussion :::

  Most of these holes were discovered in a matter of
minutes.  It takes more time just to find out the owner
of the site and explain to them why this is a problem.
Is there anyway to fix this on a more global basis?

While these types of holes are not instantly mass
exploitable, it is good (or bad, depending on how you
look at it)  for targeting specify users and sites to
steal sessions and personal info.

 -Dave deVitry 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

ps. microsoft.com exploit url withheld because they
 think they are safer that way.

pps. all websites involved were contacted, but most
had no timely reply.


-- End of Forwarded Message


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Re: Cross site scripting

2001-11-21 Thread Jon Stevens

on 11/20/01 11:54 PM, Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 However, Jon is asking for container-based solutions -- I guess that
 requiring the use of Strut tags for all your output qualifies.  :-)
 
 Craig

Sigh. I am *not* asking for a container based solution.

Because something got lost in your translation of what I'm saying, just to
be clear, I'm asking for a library that takes a String as input and returns
a String as output and provides the various encoding scheme's for preventing
CSS attacks (it seems like none of them are a magic bullet, but combined,
they do the job depending on the level of protection you need).

Something like:

public class CSSCondom
{
public String getEscapedHtml(String input);
public String getStrippedHtml(String input);
public String removeScriptTags(String input);
}

Velocity has a cool feature where you can attach what are called
EventCartridges to items in the Context so that when they are rendered in a
template, code is executed. This is similar to having a taglib bean return
data that has been 'protected'.

http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/developer-guide.html#EventCartridge%20an
d%20Event%20Handlers

In this case, I'm developing a ReferenceInsertionEventHandler that would
rely on this general CSSCondom library to help protect me from unwanted
outcomes.

Thanks.

-jon


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Re: Cross site scripting

2001-11-21 Thread Jon Stevens

on 11/21/01 1:26 AM, Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I don't know of any generic solutions to the getStrippedHtml() or
 removeScriptTag() methods you propose - but are they still necesary if you
 do the getEscapedHtml() processing on everything?
 
 Craig

The issue is whether or not you use 8859_1 as your Content type (and place
that in a meta tag within the document. If you don't do that, then other
encodings have other meanings for the  character and someone could use
that instead. In other words, if the document is sent out as say UTF-7, then
the encoded value of  is not , it is some other value and that could
get rendered by the browser because of browser bugs.

This document explains the various methods that we need to implement in
CSSCondom...

http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/malicious_code_mitigation.html

-jon


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Re: Cross site scripting

2001-11-20 Thread Jon Stevens

Wow, you fit my first paragraph perfectly.

http://httpd.apache.org/info/css-security/index.html

-jon


on 11/20/01 5:11 AM, Steve Giovannetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What exactly do you mean by cross site scripting and could you give
 pointers to the examples your talking about in PHP, Perl and C?
 
 gio
 
 Jon Stevens wrote:
 
 Sadly, it seems that the Java world really hasn't taken the cross site
 scripting issues seriously. Only a few projects within Jakarta have really
 made an effort to fix bugs and that was after they were pointed out by
 others. It also seems that most of the examples are for other languages
 (PHP, Perl, C) and not Java and that they have made simple methods available
 to resolve the issues.
 
 It would be really cool to start a project under Jakarta (ie: in commons)
 that addresses the issues of the cross site scripting bugs in a re-usable
 fashion so that more people will be aware of the issues surrounding this
 important discovery.
 
 Does anyone have code they want to contribute to get this started? How are
 you currently dealing with these issues? What is your favorite way to escape
 things? Do you filter/escape all content or only some content? Etc.
 
 Thanks,
 
 -jon


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Re: Indexing documentation

2001-11-20 Thread Jon Stevens

on 11/20/01 11:51 AM, Paul Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Within the standard Jakarta documentation tools, i.e. jakarta-site2 and
 anakia, is their a way to build a keyword index?
 
 Paul Spencer

You can use the tools available to help you create it, but there is nothing
specifically there to do what you want as it hasn't been requested before.

-jon


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Re: Cross site scripting

2001-11-20 Thread Jon Stevens

on 11/20/01 10:58 AM, Steve Giovannetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In the interest of  breaking the chains of my cross site scripting
 ignorance, I'm assuming that the offending SCRIPT needs to be blocked
 from POST or GET requests made by users to JSP/Servlets on the target
 server?

Nope. The only thing that needs to be done is that certain content needs to
be filtered when it is sent to the browser client so that it is not
interpreted by the client in a bad way.

  Wouldn't an input filter on the servlet just do the trick?

Filtering all of the content would be a performance killer and doesn't make
much sense. You also don't want to filter input, only output.

I'm not trying to solve the problem of doing the filtering of the content
that I want to filter...I know how to do that...I'm trying to solve the
problem that no one has created any code in Java (that I can find) to deal
with the CSS issue itself.

Part of the problem with this security hole is that, for some reason, it is
hard for a lot of people to even get a basic comprehension of it (even
though it is so well documented). I think that is why a lot of people just
ignore it as being a problem.

-jon


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Re: Cross site scripting

2001-11-20 Thread Jon Stevens

on 11/20/01 12:43 PM, Steve Giovannetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I was trying to look at this from the standpoint of how does the
 offending script get on your site in the first place.  Let's say you
 have a discussion board and you want to make sure no one puts nasty suff
 in SCRIPT tags in their postings.  But from what I gather is your
 interested in blocking on the way out.  I'll re-read the CERT advisory.
 
 gio

No real point on blocking it on the way in...

-jon


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Cross site scripting

2001-11-19 Thread Jon Stevens

Sadly, it seems that the Java world really hasn't taken the cross site
scripting issues seriously. Only a few projects within Jakarta have really
made an effort to fix bugs and that was after they were pointed out by
others. It also seems that most of the examples are for other languages
(PHP, Perl, C) and not Java and that they have made simple methods available
to resolve the issues.

It would be really cool to start a project under Jakarta (ie: in commons)
that addresses the issues of the cross site scripting bugs in a re-usable
fashion so that more people will be aware of the issues surrounding this
important discovery.

Does anyone have code they want to contribute to get this started? How are
you currently dealing with these issues? What is your favorite way to escape
things? Do you filter/escape all content or only some content? Etc.

Thanks,

-jon


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Re: Business-Oriented XML

2001-11-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 11/17/01 11:07 AM, Dave Jarvis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Turbine is coupled to Java.  It's not easy to use any particular
 database (e.g., an entire help section on how to integrate Oracle).
 With BOX, you set the default database with a straightforward
 configuration file:
 JDBC_DRIVER=org.postgresql.driver.Driver
 DB_URL=postgres://whatever:5432
 DB_USER=username
 DB_PASS=password
 --
 JDBC_DRIVER=com.oracle.driver.Driver
 etc.
 
 Note that this is used by the processing engine.  If you want to write a
 processing engine in another language (like C++), then you have to
 derive a mechanism to do the database connectivity.  The business logic
 never needs to know.  Even better, you can add a DB_NAME property and
 extend the BOX language thusly:
 sql name='POSTGRESQL'
 ...
 /sql
 
 This allows people to dynamically choose a different database during
 runtime (note: completely backwards and forwards compatible; BOX is
 extensible).
 
 Turbine, like Maverick, also lets you shoot yourself in the foot with
 JSP.

Ok. Now you are getting personal (by comparing to Turbine) and making a
complete fool of yourself with your ridiculous FUD statements.

BOX is just another wannabe web framework that is inventing yet more
technologies and claiming to be the 'best' because you happen to like it and
it works for you. 

p.s. I don't think you will get far with an argument about being coupled to
Java as being negative around here.

-jon


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Re: Business-Oriented XML

2001-11-16 Thread Jon Stevens

on 11/16/01 8:58 PM, Dave Jarvis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   sql
 select
   * FROM WIC.FOURNIS
   WHERE COD_CLIENT=?
   ORDER BY NOM_FOURNIS
 /select
 using
   value-of expr=#WIC_CLIENT/
 /using
 container name=results/
   /sql

Why the heck would you want to do this anyway? You have to be nuts to write
SQL by hand anymore and why would you want to embed it into your code
anyway?

You guys have totally lost touch with simple concepts like 'MVC'...

Ewww...

-jon


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CVSadmin Control

2001-11-15 Thread Jon Stevens

Hey all,

In an effort to cut back on the amount of time I spend at Jakarta (you can
start cheering now) and to give Jason van Zyl more control.

I no longer have cvs admin privs and Jason has taken over that duty for me.

So, if you need something done with regards to the avail file, as Jason.

Thx.

-jon


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Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...

2001-11-01 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/31/01 5:41 PM, horwat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The J2EE PetStore application was created as an educational tool to showcase
 features available in a J2EE architecture. True, it has many more EJB's then
 required in a normal application but these EJB's are meant to be examples of
 how the technology can be used. PetStore shows by example various design
 patterns and is not meant to be a benchmarked application.
 
 Microsoft is really missing the point in their benchmark. In their port they
 don't have a middle tier. They are really missing the meat of the
 architecture and essentially have a database accessible through webpages. It
 is this middle tier, through the use of EJBs, that allows pluggability and
 reusability of business logic.
 
 It is quite telling that Microsoft targeted a strawman, non-optimized,
 education focused application instead of an official J2EE benchmark like
 ECPerf.
 
 Justy

Why can't anyone learn that providing crummy examples only encourages people
to create crummy applications? Most of the people out there probably try to
copy/paste as much code as they can from samples like the PetStore. People
who are even looking at it in the first place are looking at it as the 'Sun
approved' way of creating applications.

If you are really trying to educate people how to use various design
patterns, then why not show them the right way in the first place?

Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in all of this?

p.s. Sun's stock price is flying at a whopping 10.84. M$ must be doing
something right (at 61.84).

-jon


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Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...

2001-11-01 Thread Jon Stevens

on 11/1/01 11:59 PM, Matt Egyhazy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 perhaps sun should make it more clear that petshop is not a benchmark and is
 instead a multi-faceted example of the possibilities offered by j2ee.  i
 suppose they could rework it and create a benchmark out of it...
 
 microsoft is obviously misusing it...and that is possibly what they do best
 (and are 'doing right'), spread FUD.
 
 matt

I don't get it though. Why shouldn't a fully functional demo also be able to
be used as a real application (or the basis for one)? A pet store shopping
cart isn't rocket science. Even if it is just an educational science
project, why does it have to be that much more complex and overly done than
an equivalent application in another language/system/os.

The point being is that M$ claims that their version of PetStore is that
much smaller and easier to understand. Well, if their version also has all
of the same showcase of features, then how come it is still that much
smaller/simpler/faster?

I don't really see what M$ did as being FUD. What they are doing is showing
the hypocrisy of Sun's marketing engine and the technologies that Sun is
pushing on people to use.

W a k e  u p  p e o p l e

-jon


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Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...

2001-10-31 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/31/01 1:19 PM, James Strachan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/compare/petshop.asp
 
 Its not a very fair comparison (suprise suprise) but from a quick look at
 the source code, it seems MS achieve their performance gains by not using
 EJBs :-)

Ok. Now that is funny. I got a good laugh out of that one. Hi Justy!

 I wonder what the figures would look like if the PetStore were implemented
 along similar techniques using just regular JavaBeans and JSP...

I wonder what the figures would look like if the PetStore were implemented
along similar techniques using just Turbine and Velocity...

Velocity already had results show it to be faster than JSP.

-jon


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Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...

2001-10-31 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/31/01 1:54 PM, James Strachan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It would be interesting to have a Java competition - trying the various
 different techniques, tools and frameworks and seeing how each of them stack
 up to .NET. Comparing code complexity, performance etc.
 
 e.g. with beans or EJBs, with JDBC stored procedures or Turbine, with JSP or
 Velocity, then on a bunch of runtime platforms and databases and see how
 they stack up doing the same application.
 
 James

Unfortunately, none of us in Jakarta land get paid to write demo's so I
doubt you will see one soon. :-(

Needless to say, Scarab is fully OSS, performs quite well and the code is a
very nice example of how to write an extremely complex web app.

http://scarab.tigris.org/

-jon


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Re: Site update

2001-10-28 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/27/01 12:27 PM, Remy Maucherat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi,
 
 When doing site updates, please don't forget to update before starting
 editing. For example, Berin reverted many changes to the news and binary
 pages.
 
 Remy

Even though it was partially the fault of CVS that f*cked up in this case, I
do argue that this is a perfect example of why I push for keeping the .html
pages in CVS.

-jon


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[OT] Microsoft Sets Tolls for .Net Developers

2001-10-25 Thread Jon Stevens

Why am I not surprised?

The funny thing is that even in this down economy and with all the free
(better?) alternatives that are out there, people will actually still pay
for this stuff!

We should put a paypal link on the Jakarta homepage and donate the money to
AIDS research or some other worthy cause.

-jon

-- Forwarded Message

Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/24/010249
Posted by: michael, on 2001-10-24 11:40:44
Topic: ms, 153 comments

   from the firstborn-son-comes-later dept.
   matsh writes: Today Microsoft [1]revealed the cost of signing up as a
   developer to .Net. Entry level is $1,000. Standard level $10,000.
   Custom support will cost even more.

References

   1. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7629784.html

-- End of Forwarded Message


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Re: [Vote] BCEL @ Jakarta

2001-10-25 Thread Jon Stevens

+1

Please note: people from other projects are giving their vote...while the
voice is appreciated, that vote doesn't really count since it is only the
PMC's decision to include new projects.

-jon


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Re: Distributing the JSSE

2001-10-24 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/23/01 7:38 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 10/23/01 5:55 PM, Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 On 10/23/01 2:38 PM, Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 on 10/23/01 10:40 AM, Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I want to distribute the JSSE jars with the Turbine Development Kit but I'm
 not entirely sure if it's legal. On the JSSE website it says that the
 binary implementation may be used royalty-free as part of commercial
 applications, but in the license it says for internal use only?
 
 It is not legal.
 
 If that is indeed the case does anyone know of any JSSE implementations that
 can be distributed?
 
 
 
 Why is it not legal?  According to the license posted by jason, there is a
 supplemental section that reads :
 
 SUPPLEMENTAL LICENSE TERMS
 
 These supplemental license terms (Supplement) add to or
 modify the terms of the Binary Code License Agreement
 (collectively, the Agreement). Capitalized terms not
 defined in this Supplement shall have the same meanings
 ascribed to them in the Agreement. These Supplement terms
 shall supersede any inconsistent or conflicting terms in
 the Agreement, or in any license contained within the
 Software.
 
 1. License to Distribute. Sun grants you a non-exclusive,
 non-transferable, royalty-free, limited license to (a) use
 the binary form of the Software for the sole purpose of
 designing, developing and testing your JavaTM applets and
 applications intended to run on a compatible Java
 environment (the Programs), provided that the Programs
 add significant and primary functionality to the Software,
 and (b) reproduce and distribute the binary form of the
 Software through multiple tiers of distribution provided
 that you: (i) distribute the Software complete and
 unmodified; (ii) do not distribute additional software
 intended to supersede any component(s) of the Software;
 (iii) do not remove or alter any proprietary
 legends or notices contained in or on the Software; and
 (iv) only distribute the Software pursuant to a license
 agreement that protects Sun's interests consistent with the
 terms contained in this Agreement, and provides that Sun is
 a third party beneficiary to such license agreement. If you
 distribute the Software pursuant to this paragraph, you
 must include the following statement as part of product
 documentation (whether hard copy or electronic), as a
 part of a copyright page or proprietary rights notice
 page, in an About box or in any other form reasonably
 designed to make the statement visible to users of the
 Software:  This product includes code licensed from
 RSA Data Security.
 
 The only problem that I see is (iv).  Is that it?
 

Catalina does not distribute the JSSE (from the catalina/build.xml):

  target name=copy-jsse.jar if=copy.jsse.jar
!-- Cannot redistribute JSSE
copy todir=${catalina.build}/common/lib file=${jcert.jar}/
copy todir=${catalina.build}/common/lib file=${jnet.jar}/
copy todir=${catalina.build}/common/lib file=${jsse.jar}/
--
  /target

I would like to know why they don't redistribute it.

I think (ii) is funny because from what I'm hearing is that Jboss has
modified it and is distributing it because there is a serious classloader
problem in it.

(iv) definitely doesn't make me feel real comfortable.

-jon


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Re: Distributing the JSSE

2001-10-23 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/23/01 10:40 AM, Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I want to distribute the JSSE jars with the Turbine Development Kit but I'm
 not entirely sure if it's legal. On the JSSE website it says that the
 binary implementation may be used royalty-free as part of commercial
 applications, but in the license it says for internal use only?

It is not legal.

-jon


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Re: ImportScrubberTask

2001-10-22 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/22/01 6:22 AM, Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It works fine, but there is a problem with the imports being placed in the
 wrong place when there is text right after the package declaration. I asked
 Tom Copeland to fix this for me and he said he would get to it today. It
 does the job correctly, it just doesn't put the imports in the right place.

Run the ant target that I pasted here against Scarab and you will see that
it does NOT work fine at all. I pasted it here so that I wouldn't get a
response like you just gave me.

Here is an example of some imports it f*cked up:

[196][ src/org/tigris/scarab/om ]% more Attachment.java
package org.tigris.scarab.om;

import text.plain;
import org.apache.fulcrum.upload.FileItem;
import org.apache.torque.om.NumberKey;
import org.apache.torque.om.Persistent;

I never knew that text.plain is a proper import. :-)

Here is another one:

[197][ src/org/tigris/scarab/om ]% more IssueTemplateInfo.java
package org.tigris.scarab.om;

import email.RequireApproval.vm;
import org.apache.turbine.Turbine;
import org.apache.fulcrum.template.TemplateContext;
import org.apache.torque.om.NumberKey;
import org.apache.torque.om.UnsecurePersistent;
import org.tigris.scarab.security.ScarabSecurity;
import org.tigris.scarab.security.SecurityFactory;
import org.tigris.scarab.tools.Email;
import org.tigris.scarab.util.ScarabException;
import org.tigris.scarab.services.module.ModuleEntity;

Wow. When did Velocity files become ok to import? :-)

It appears that in its search through files, it finds any mention of a
foo.bar and sticks it into an import. That does not seem like a very good
assumption.

Another problem I noticed is that it imports java.util.Set when it doesn't
need to as well.

Yes, I compiled with debugging on.

I'm starting to think that post processing JAD (the java decompiler) output
would be a better idea.

-jon


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Re: [Vote] BCEL @ Jakarta

2001-10-22 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/22/01 7:05 AM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Jason van Zyl at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I like their project, the only thing I'm concerned about it is here:
 http://bcel.sourceforge.net/licensing.html
 
 Markus has agreed to change the licensing strictly over to the AL.
 
 Big +1 then :)
 
   Pier

FYI, it is 'ASF License' or 'ASFL'...not 'AL'. The license belongs to the
'Apache Software Foundation', not 'Apache'.

-jon


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Re: New jar dependency for Cactus

2001-10-22 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/22/01 9:27 AM, Vincent Massol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'd like to ask if anyone sees a problem for using AspectJ
 (http://www.aspectj.org) with Cactus ? More specifically the license is MPL
 (http://aspectj.org/servlets/AJSite?channel=downloadsubChannel=license). Is
 that a problem ? I don't believe so, but just wanted to be sure.
 
 If it works, I think a lot of jakarta projects may find aspectj very useful.
 I highly recommend reading the tutorial :
 http://aspectj.org/doc/dist/tutorial.pdf
 
 Thanks
 -Vincent

From everything that I have ever heard from ASF board members, the MPL 1.1
and higher (not 1.0) is an ok license to combine ASF software with.

-jon


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Re: ImportScrubberTask

2001-10-22 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/22/01 10:56 AM, Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I only ran it on a small body of source, but Scarab is a good test bed.

Scarab is something like 256 classes...most of it is Torque generated
though...

-jon


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ImportScrubberTask

2001-10-21 Thread Jon Stevens

http://importscrubber.sourceforge.net/ant.html

org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.optional.importscrubber.ImportScrubberTask

Given that this isn't an official Jakarta project, shouldn't the tool choose
another namespace?

It isn't even listed here:

http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/external.html

-jon


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Re: ImportScrubberTask

2001-10-21 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/21/01 8:40 PM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Jon Stevens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 http://importscrubber.sourceforge.net/ant.html
 
 org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.optional.importscrubber.ImportScrubberTask
 
 Given that this isn't an official Jakarta project, shouldn't the tool choose
 another namespace?
 
 Indeed...
 
   Pier
 

That said, I just tried running importscrubber against Scarab's code and it
totally f*cked it up. I highly recommend not using it or at least being very
careful with it.

Tom, feel free to try yourself...I added the following to Scarab's
build.xml:

!-- ==
--
!-- Tool to create proper import statements
--
!-- ==
--
target name=scrub depends=om-peer,prepare
taskdef name=scrub
  
classname=org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.optional.importscrubber.ImportScrub
berTask/

property name=tmp.dir value=tmp/

delete dir=${tmp.dir} quiet=true/

copy todir=${tmp.dir}/org
  fileset dir=${build.src.scarab}/org/
/copy

javac srcdir=${tmp.dir}
destdir=${tmp.dir}
excludes=**/package.html,torque/**
debug=true

  classpath refid=classpath/

  classpath
fileset dir=${build.project.webinf.lib}
  include name=**/torque*.jar/
/fileset
  /classpath
/javac

scrub root=${tmp.dir} format=nobreaks recurse=true/

delete
  fileset dir=${tmp.dir} includes=**/*.class/
/delete

copy todir=${src.java.dir.scarab}/org overwrite=true
  fileset dir=${tmp.dir}/org/
/copy

/target

-jon


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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

2001-10-19 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/19/01 5:50 AM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 +1... Just remove the word ASP between decline and market in the little
 boxed text :)
 
   Pier

Why? That was a direct quote.

That isn't M$ ASP, it is 'application service provider'.

-jon


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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

2001-10-18 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/18/01 12:41 AM, Ceki Gülcü [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 You should remove the last paragraph, otherwise +1.

Done.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

2001-10-18 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/18/01 12:18 AM, Ranjit Mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It's sadder still, Jon, that you quote Paul almost
 verbatim in your document New Project Proposals
 (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html) and

#1. It is a quote made in a public forum.
#2. I also used a quote from Sam and several other references to other
conversations today.
#3. What exactly is the problem with quoting him?

 put several not-so-obvious-to-a-newbie references
 to this thread into the document.

Removed.

-jon


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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

2001-10-18 Thread Jon Stevens

Sam,

I have integrated the changes that you suggested, please take a look.

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html

-jon



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[PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

2001-10-17 Thread Jon Stevens

Here is my proposal for new project creation guidelines. I have not linked
it into the main site until I can get 3 +1 votes from the PMC and 0 -1 votes
from the PMC.

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html

I will accept any patches against this document and/or direct commits from
PMC members.

:-)

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

2001-10-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/17/01 9:36 PM, Tim Vernum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 When I first read the original mail my reaction was Someone with
 a homeless project looking for an owner.

I must be tainted from having been around here so long. I see right through
his proposal.

 In fact Paul's most recent mail says
 As a result of this, we are interested in building a market
 through open source.
 Which has an air of we can't afford to do this ourselves so we're
 hoping that we can utilise the Apache resources to get our product
 of the ground.

Yes, that is what I saw right away.

Add on to the fact that he has zero OSS experience, a contribution from him
would not bring anything more than a code base and a lot of headaches for us
to bring him up to speed on how to run an OSS project. Jakarta is not a
dumping ground for code.

 There's nothing _wrong_ with that - my impression is that part of
 Sun's motive for donating to Jakarta is to take advantage of the
 resources/name of Apache to promote their technology.

Actually, it is a slightly different and much much more drawn out story with
Sun.

 It can be a win-win situation

For the most part, with Sun, it has been a win-win solution.

Several Jakarta developers (Costin/Craig/Pier are the first people that come
to my mind) have gone on to become Sun employees* and that makes me happy to
see them gainfully employed doing what they love to do. That said, Tomcat
3.0 wasn't a pretty code base at all and a lot of work has gone into
cleaning it up (as well as re-writing it from scratch).

* Costin recently left to go to another Apache-centric company...I'm sure
his resume of working with Jakarta didn't hurt him. :-)

 , but if no one here thinks the
 project is worth being involved in, then there's no reason
 for the PMC et al. to put time/resources into it.

I agree.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

2001-10-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/17/01 9:24 AM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Nothing, but from a community standpoint, the ASF would rather incorporate
 projects that are not backed up by a self-sustained open-development
 community... Look at our last addition, Log4J, it was an IBM project, they
 dumped it, Ceki forked it, build an open-source community around it, and
 then we inglobated it under Jakarta (and it was a good addition)...

 I actually don't care about the code... The code could be the crappies one
 ever, but if the community behind it is good, it gets my preference over a
 magnificent piece of code with a non-existent or screwed community...

+1

This is similar to what I originally stated in my first response on the
subject as well as a bazillion times over the years:

 There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
 to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is
 there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie:
 people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the
 people who would be responsible for supporting the user community.

Maybe someday, someone will bother to read the archives before posting here
so that either I or Pier or someone else don't have to constantly explain
why a response of:

We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects.

...isn't an asshole response, but just a simple summary of what we have been
saying here for the last 5 years.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

2001-10-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty
 clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE
 continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the
 commitment we expect to make.

I question that commitment. No, I'm not going to just take your word for it.

How can you commit to backing a project over the long term if your company
can't get funding? When your company goes out of business, what interest
will you have in developing this project over the long term?

You need to realize that the 5 years that I have been around here, I have
seen about 30-40 people just like you who come with some great project that
they want to see survive beyond their company who want to give us the great
pleasure of hosting for them so that they can maybe get some interest in it
because no one was willing to buy it.

We already have enough baggage around the Jakarta project. I think that
adding any new projects is going to have to be carefully considered. The
primary consideration is whether or not the project coming in has a
developer and user community around it. The reason is because it will be
these people who have to support the project long after the lead developers
or the company that created it disappeared.

The problem is that few people around here have been around for as long as I
have so they have a very small understanding of the amount of crap that we
have accumulated and gone through over the years. As a result, we have
really closed our doors to new projects that have no community before they
come here. Simply because we don't want to become a sourceforget.net (which
is where I would have recommended you to go in the first place instead of
pointing you at this list).

If you had bothered to read the archives before coming here, you would have
seen myself and others say similar things like the above over and over and
over again. Yes, this is prompting me to do yet even more work and create a
FAQ page for this stuff on the website. I'm tired of repeating myself.

 Now, if anyone wants to look more closely at the
 product and make some informed comments, we'll be happy to share information.
 I will not be responding to inane trolls.

How come you haven't put the source code out there under an OSS license yet
so that we can look at it before we decide to begin to even consider it?

thanks,

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

2001-10-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/17/01 9:35 AM, Ceki Gulcu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Untactful?
 Yes. Accurate statement? Yes.

Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded:

 There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
 to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is
 there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie:
 people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the
 people who would be responsible for supporting the user community.

It didn't seem to get through to the guy so I brought it up a notch.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

2001-10-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/17/01 1:21 PM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something
 like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat
 diplomatic way.

I did start nice. How come you choose to ignore that?

 I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he
 definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5
 years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other
 people that feel about the same way about Jon's behaviour on the lists he
 subscribes to as me, tough. Just read the lists!

Yup, I admit it. I have a fairly low tolerance for bullshit.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

2001-10-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/17/01 12:42 PM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Actually, I responded to all your points, then you decided it was time to
 insult us, at which point it no longer seemed worthwhile responding to you at
 all. Fortunately, not everyone on the list has the same attitude problem.

You see an attitude problem.

I see you getting defensive and making judgments of my personality based on
emails (and not even knowing me) because I don't jump up and exclaim joy for
your gracious offer of dumping your product on us.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

2001-10-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/17/01 12:24 PM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 No, this is not what we said. We said we cannot fund taking the product to
 market, which is vastly different than being able to fund development. We are
 primarily a consulting company, and we have used ASPizer for a client project.
 We do not have a software sales channel, and we are not currently in a
 position to develop one.
 
   Paul. 

Let me quote you:

However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP
market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have
decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that
direction.

And:

We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no
problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis.


If you don't have the money to fund development of the product, then how are
you going to have money to keep several engineers working on it and
supporting it? You keep contradicting yourself.

Even still, that doesn't deal with the issues surrounding the need to have
an established community as well as even letting us look at the code base (I
care if the code and design is good or not).

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

2001-10-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/17/01 4:29 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Calling someone's hard-worked project .bomb, without even
 trying to get informed about it.

 Does this qualify?

It is a .bomb project though. I have an entire corporation of them (yes, I
am the proud owner of a rather large worthless shareholders certificate).
Big deal.

Sorry, I don't see an offense in that.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

2001-10-17 Thread Jon Stevens

I don't have any more time for this. End of discussion. I'm not going to
change my mind.

-1

My suggestion:

Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.

Good luck.

-jon


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Re: Stylebook

2001-10-11 Thread Jon Stevens

on 10/11/01 7:24 AM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Anakia is the product
 many jakarta projects use.

Anakia is the product that many Jakarta projects use...as well as the main
http://www.apache.org site. It has proven to be quite useful and is fully
documented:

http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/anakia.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site2.html

Thanks,

-jon


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Re: [Fwd: Tomcat extensions for ASPs]

2001-10-11 Thread Jon Stevens

There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is
there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie:
people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the
people who would be responsible for supporting the user community.

-1

-jon


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Re: Any Jakarta calendar server projects?

2001-09-30 Thread Jon Stevens

on 9/30/01 8:08 AM, Paul Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 iCalander is not supported in current version (1.3a2) of Jetspeed,
 although I am not sure why.

I think it clearly states the reason why on the link that Sam posted.

-jon


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Re: Need to add Jetspeed release and nightly to binindex

2001-09-23 Thread Jon Stevens

on 9/23/01 7:20 PM, Paul Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 As it turns out I do not have permission.

If only you had read the Jakarta-site2 documentation...

Anyway, for the future, you now have permission.

-jon


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Re: Need to add Jetspeed release and nightly to binindex

2001-09-21 Thread Jon Stevens

on 9/21/01 3:45 PM, Paul Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I would like to add the release and nightly builds of Jetspeed to
 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.html.  How should I accomplish
 this task?
 
 Paul Spencer

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site2.html

-jon


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Re: [VOTE] Making Commons-Cactus a top level projet

2001-09-14 Thread Jon Stevens

on 9/14/01 12:23 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Don't you want to preserve your history?

History will be preserved in the repo it is currently in.

-jon


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Re: [Lucene-dev] FW: Lucene Acceptance

2001-09-11 Thread Jon Stevens

on 9/11/01 8:55 AM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 There's one
 piece that someone of root authority needs to do, and I'll coordinate that
 part.

Including getting a list of people who need commit access.

-jon


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FW: [Lucene-dev] FW: Lucene Acceptance

2001-09-09 Thread Jon Stevens

Hey Ted,

What is your status?

-jon


-- Forwarded Message
From: Tal Dayan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:32:10 -0700
To: Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED], lucene dev lists.sourceforge.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Lucene-dev] FW: Lucene Acceptance

Hi Jon,

Where are we standing with the switch to Jakarta ?

Tal

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Stevens
 Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 2:01 PM
 To: lucene dev lists.sourceforge.net
 Subject: [Lucene-dev] FW: Lucene Acceptance
 
 
 Fyi...
 
 -jon
 
 -- Forwarded Message
 From: Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Organization: Apache Software Foundation / Jakarta
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:57:08 -0400
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Lucene Acceptance
 
 Jon Stevens wrote:
  If you would like to take over and do the move, then that would
 be great. I
  have sent several emails to the Lucene list with instructions
 on what needs
  to be done. Check their list archives.
 
 OK, I found this:
 
  http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/2626/2001/6/100/5924381/ 
 
 I'm out of town most of this week, but will start stepping down the list
 if no one else is working on it.
 
 -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
 -- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
 -- Tel +1 716 737-3463
 -- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/
 
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 -- End of Forwarded Message
 
 
 ___
 Lucene-dev mailing list
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lucene-dev

-- End of Forwarded Message


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Re: lists that don't require subscriber approval

2001-09-08 Thread Jon Stevens

on 9/8/01 5:26 AM, Vincent Massol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Ok for doing the website but I would have preferred someone who has already
 done it and has everything set up on his machine (I don't and will have to
 learn the mechanism before so it'll take a some time). To summarise, there
 are 2 things to correct: remove the doc mailing list and correct the
 commons one.

cvs co jakarta-site2
cd jakarta-site2
edit xdocs/site/mail2.xml
ant
cvs ci

It isn't rocket science.

-jon


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Re: [PATCH] add jetspeed download links to the jakarta downloadspage

2001-09-07 Thread Jon Stevens

on 9/7/01 2:17 PM, Chris Kimpton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 +lia href=/~raphael/jetspeed/Jetspeed/a/li

-1

Why is this in his home directory and not in the main jakarta site?

-jon


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Re: lists that don't require subscriber approval

2001-09-06 Thread Jon Stevens

on 9/6/01 7:45 AM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 P.S.  Perhaps the right fix here is to create a jakarta-cactus subproject.
 
 Agreed... I would kindly ask to the Jakarta-Commons people, to vote on
 making Cactus become a top-level subproject of Jakarta, we'll move from
 there...
 
   Pier

Or:

jakarta-commons-cactus

-jon (who is enjoying the current low creation rate of top level projects)



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[OT] Another case for using OSS.

2001-09-02 Thread Jon Stevens

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010902/n02312723.html

Doh! That sucks for all those people and their jobs. :-(

Even worse are the people who purchased the software, built a ton of code
(or companies) on top of Netobjects and now are shit out of luck.

-jon


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[OT] Servlets better for most companies!

2001-08-23 Thread Jon Stevens

Sigh, I have been saying this for well over a year now...

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=5801cid=1031241

Next I need to just convince people that JSP sucks and I'm sure that Gartner
will eventually write an article about it.

:-)

-jon

---
http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20010822S0001

Those damn expensive EJB servers!

$1B Wasted On High-End Servers, Gartner Says

Companies wasted more than $1 billion between 1998 and 2000 on high-end
Java application servers that provide far more capabilities than are
needed on most Web sites, says research firm Gartner. And, if the trend
continues, Gartner estimates that companies could throw away another $2
billion from 2001 to 2003.

Confusion over the appropriate use of the software needed to power Web
applications has led many companies to bypass low-end application
servers that meet most requirements and cost 10 times less than the
high-end products, Gartner says. In the last three years, the cheaper
models were sufficient for 80% of the projects in a typical midsize
company, yet 60% of the deployments were high-end.

Most business Web-site applications are focused on delivering content to
the user and are therefore best run on low-end products that support
servlets and Java Server Pages, technology best suited for those kinds
of applications. Examples of such application servers include Enhydra,
an open-source product; iPlanet Web Server from the Sun Microsystems/AOL
Time Warner alliance; WebLogic Express from BEA Systems; and WebSphere
Standard Edition from IBM.

High-end application servers are intended for large transaction volume
and, therefore, offer more advanced capabilities, such as load
balancing, fault tolerance, transaction management, and system
management. In addition, the expensive software typically supports the
Enterprise JavaBean component model and Java messaging architecture,
which are important for reusing application business logic across
various business processes and clients. Businesses should use a high-end
server handling transactions, back-end integration, and high volume in
conjunction with low-end products running less complicated applications.

People need to take control and be responsible for their (computer)
architecture and the choices they make, says Gartner analyst David
Smith. They need to understand that while they may have the requirement
to have the capability of EJB for one aspect, that doesn't mean that all
the different tiers in their system have to have the high-end
application server. They can use the low-end ones to do JSPs, servlets
and make calls to the EJB on the high-end one.

-- Antone Gonsalves mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- End of Forwarded Message


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Re: [OT] Servlets better for most companies!

2001-08-23 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/23/01 4:23 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Try convincing someone to use Torque instead of their $200,000 EJB server
 it
 is like trying to drive your hand through a 6' wall of steel...

Or Torque instead of TopLink, which I'm hearing has 5/6 digit pricing now,
and is very similar in API and features to Torque.

The mentality of these people is astonishing sometimes.

-jon


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Re: Viewcvs MIA

2001-08-20 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/20/01 2:09 AM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Maybe he thought that this could be Jakarta's (configuration) problem?
 
 Or maybe he's just asking about clarification whether this is a bug or a
 feature?

Then he should ask on the viewcvs mailing list because Jakarta's system is
configured by the author of the product and isn't subscribed here and can't
do anything to help him.

If you go out into the middle of the street and yell:

I have a problem with ViewCVS!

How many people do you think will answer you?

thanks,

-jon


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Re: Viewcvs MIA

2001-08-16 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/16/01 4:20 AM, Conor MacNeill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 While we are on the topic of ViewCVS, there seems to be a slight config
 issue when you do a select for diffs. For example, look at this page
 http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/build.xml?r1=1.173

 The coloured diffs link and text appear to be truncated . The text is
 missing the closing bracket (I can live with that), while the link is
 missing the diff_format=h parameter (which I really would like).

The link above looks fine to me...
 
 Anyone know how to fix that?

At the bottom of every page is a link to the person who wrote the
software...

http://viewcvs.sourceforge.net/

Either report a bug or send a patch.

(I can't believe I have to say this.)

-jon


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Re: [OT] $un, M$ and Java

2001-08-15 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/15/01 7:08 PM, Conor MacNeill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What is this, some sort of advocacy forum? I can read this sort of crap on
 slashdot if I want. IMHO, All this stuff is outside the charter of this
 list. Even a flamefest about jars in CVS, or project directory layouts or
 something on-topic, would be better :-)
 
 Conor

That is why you can filter based on the subject line if you don't want to
see it. I have been very careful to put [OT] in each of my off topic posts
here.

-jon


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Re: [OT] $un, M$ and Java

2001-08-15 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/15/01 8:42 PM, Conor MacNeill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Would you like a patch for that
 page?
 
 :-)
 
 Conor

I would rather let you just commit it yourself, but a patch will do.

-jon


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Re: Viewcvs MIA

2001-08-15 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/15/01 10:26 PM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Subject saids it all - else checkout http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/

We know.

Fixed now.

-jon


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Re: [OT] $un, M$ and Java

2001-08-14 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/14/01 7:30 AM, Pier P. Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Jon Stevens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 on 8/13/01 4:53 PM, Alex Fernández [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 What would change if Apache used GPL?
 
 I would quit.
 
 I would follow Jon.
 
   Pier

I'm starting to picture lemmings here...

LOL!

-jon


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JavaOne Call for Papers

2001-08-14 Thread Jon Stevens

Maybe people can write some proposals about talks that don't center around
JSP. Last year was nuts...something like 50+ talks on JSP alone. Ewww.

-jon


* 2002 JavaOne(sm) Conference Call for Papers
  Sun Microsystems is seeking proposals for sessions for the
  JavaOne(sm) Conference, to be held March 25-29, 2002. The Call
  for Papers process begins August 31, 2001. Deadline for
  submitting papers is September 30, 2001.
  Call for Papers contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  http://java.sun.com/javaone/


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Re: [OT] $un, M$ and Java

2001-08-13 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/13/01 10:54 AM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Send Stallman an e-mail right now.. [EMAIL PROTECTED]  He will tell you that Apache
 *is* Free Software.

No need to fill his inbox with crap.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html

 The Apache License, Version 1.1.
 This is a permissive non-copyleft free software license with a few
 requirements that render it incompatible with the GNU GPL.
 
 We urge you not to use the Apache licenses for software you write. However,
 there is no reason to avoid running programs that have been released under
 this license, such as Apache.


Needless to say, the ASF (ie: Roy Fielding) says that the GPL *is*
compatible with the ASF 1.1 license. I know and trust Roy. I'm going with
Roy over whatever the FSF says any day.

-jon


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Re: [OT] $un, M$ and Java

2001-08-13 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/13/01 4:53 PM, Alex Fernández [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What would change if Apache used GPL?

I would quit.

:-)

I let you decide if that is a good thing or not. :-)

-jon


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FW: Veltag JSP Taglib

2001-08-13 Thread Jon Stevens

I love it.

-jon

-- Forwarded Message
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 22:54:33 -0400
To: velocity-user [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Veltag JSP Taglib

Tonight I committed into the contrib section of CVS a mini-project
called 'Veltag' which is a JSP taglib that allows you to use VTL within
a JSP page.  I also added some documentation to the Velocity site under
'Tools', titled 'IT Manager wants JSP?'.  The documentation isn't
complete, but I have been playing with this for quite some time, and I
didn't want to put off committing it any longer.

This taglib allows you to put VTL right in your JSP pages :

%@ taglib uri=/WEB-INF/veltag.tld prefix=vel %

html
head
  title Velocity! /title
/head

jsp:useBean id=mybean  class=GeirBean /

body
vel:velocity strictaccess=true

 #set($mybean = $scopetool.getPageScope(mybean))

 #if(true)
this is true!
 #end

 #foreach($item in $mybean.array)
 $item br
 #end
 /vel:velocity
/body
/html

JSP experts : if there are any problems with my JSP or taglib
nomenclature or setup, I would love to know about it.  My JSP is kinda
weak :)

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Developing for the web?  See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/
Well done is better than well said - New England Proverb

-- End of Forwarded Message


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[OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

2001-08-08 Thread Jon Stevens

Can someone explain to me what the heck web services are so that I can
decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?

http://sdc.sun.com/briefings/agenda.cgi?eventkey=5100

I'm guessing it is fancy marketing foo about SOAP/XML-RPC or it is about how
to build a website with JSP.

-jon

-- Forwarded Message
From: Ann Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Ann Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

Dear Developer:

Judging from all the recent announcements in the industry, Web services is
clearly the next big thing.

Sun Microsystems, Inc. invites members of the development community to
attend a one day Sun Headquarter Briefing on Developing Web Services.
This Briefing is scheduled for Thursday, September 6, 2001.
 
At this briefing, developers will receive first-hand information from the
very people who are working with this new generation of web services.
Developers will also learn how to start developing web services today.  In
addition, this briefing will attempt to clear the fog on web services
development including steps in the process such as design, create, assemble,
publish, and deploy.
 
For more information or to register for the Briefing, go to:

http://sdc.sun.com/briefings  or call:  1.800.795.7578
 
PLEASE NOTE:  When you register on-line, please be sure to click the check
box on the upper left-hand of the description.
  
See you at the Briefing!

Ann Wilkins 
Sun Headquarter Briefings
Phone:  +1-408-635-0854
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



-- End of Forwarded Message


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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

2001-08-08 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/8/01 8:34 AM, Waldhoff, Rodney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It's an important part of optimizing your value Chain when dealing with
 everything from SMEs to large scale enterprises. ;)

HAHAHAHA

I'm sure it will increase my ROI on my ENV when my SME hits my JSP and pukes
all over my RTFM.

-jon


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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

2001-08-08 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/8/01 9:59 AM, Berin Loritsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 All the stuff I've read about for WebServices comprise
 UDDI, SOAP, and WSDL.
 
 The three combined provide a way to automatically discover remote resources
 that my webapp can use and then actually use it.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned JXTA. Where does that fall into this web
services picture?

http://www.jxta.org/

P.s. This is great discussion. Thanks.

-jon


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Re: Loggers, loggers, all over the place

2001-08-07 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/7/01 5:47 AM, Berin Loritsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It takes a couple
 iterations of an API to get it right, and Sun foolishly decided to include
 the API without the real world testing and feedback.

I'm sure it isn't the first time. :-)

-jon


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Re: Loggers, loggers, all over the place

2001-08-07 Thread Jon Stevens

on 8/7/01 5:47 AM, Berin Loritsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hopefully the information presented here will help you.  I would stay
 away from JDK1.4 logging, and use either LogKit or Log4J which are of
 equal quality--but slightly different focuses and underlying concepts.

+1

Log4J also has a bit more visibility within Jakarta because it is a top
level project. Therefore, there is the *potential* that more developer
resources will be dedicated to it because people will find that project
first.

*Personally*, I like Log4J better at this point. The 25k .jar file with full
backwards compatibility to the enterprise edition also really makes a big
statement. You write your code to the 25k .jar API's and then drop in the
larger .jar when you need more features. You can't beat simple replacement
of a .jar file.

-jon


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Re: Enhancement to jakarta-site2 -- XSLT stylesheet equivalent tosite.vsl

2001-07-31 Thread Jon Stevens

This entire email is *exactly* why I push for version numbers in jar files.

Yes, classpath was empty

Yes, ant 1.3

-jon


on 7/27/01 3:01 PM, Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
 
 on 7/27/01 12:08 PM, Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Please help me debug this stylesheet, and improve its compatibility with
 site.vsl, by checking out the jakarta-site2 module and running the
 xslt target.  NOTE:  you will need to make sure that your Ant install
 includes the appropriate optional.jar file, and has access to either
 JAXP/1.1 (crimson.jar, jaxp.jar, and xalan.jar) or Xerces+Xalan.
 
 Craig McClanahan
 
 For the life of me, I can't get the .jar file foo correct...
 
 
 Empty classpath, right?
 
 -jon
 
 [204][ ~/checkout/jakarta-site2 ]% ant xslt
 Buildfile: build.xml
 
 xslt:
 [style] Transforming into /Users/jon/checkout/jakarta-site2/xslt
 [style] Loading stylesheet
 /Users/jon/checkout/jakarta-site2/xdocs/stylesheets/site.xsl
 [style] Failed to read stylesheet stylesheets/site.xsl
 
 BUILD FAILED
 
 /Users/jon/checkout/jakarta-site2/build.xml:103:
 javax.xml.transform.TransformerConfigurationException: Namespace not
 supported by SAXParser
 --- Nested Exception ---
 
 Total time: 2 seconds
 
 [205][ ~/checkout/jakarta-site2 ]% dir $ANT_HOME/lib/
 total 1584
 
 Ant 1.3, right?
 
0 drwxrwxr-x   9 jon  staff 262 Jul 27 13:49 ./
0 drwxrwxr-x   9 jon  staff 262 Mar 11 13:40 ../
4 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff 153 Mar  2 04:46 README
  292 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff  295934 Mar  2 04:46 ant.jar
  184 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff  187246 Mar 23 17:23 crimson.jar
  244 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff  247802 Mar 14 07:09
 jakarta-ant-1.3-optional.jar
8 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff5537 Mar  2 04:46 jaxp.jar
  136 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff  136198 Mar  2 04:46 parser.jar
  716 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff  732330 May 23 05:45 xalan.jar
 
 
 In my JAXP/1.1 release (and my $ANT_HOME/lib directory), file sizes are:
 187162  crimson.jar
  28404  jaxp.jar
 801714   xalan.jar
 
 [206][ ~/checkout/jakarta-site2 ]% dir lib
 total 1668
0 drwxrwxr-x   9 jon  staff 262 Jul 27 13:47 ./
0 drwxrwxr-x  18 jon  staff 568 Jul 27 13:43 ../
0 drwxrwxr-x   6 jon  staff 264 Jul 16 16:08 CVS/
  292 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff  295934 Mar 11 13:48 ant-1.3.jar
  184 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff  187246 Mar 23 17:23 crimson.jar
   28 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff   28404 Mar  4 05:35 jaxp.jar
   80 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff   78541 Feb 14 11:56 jdom-b6.jar
  368 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff  373565 Apr 30 13:24
 velocity-1.0.1.jar
  716 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff  732330 May 23 05:45 xalan.jar
 
 
 This stuff shouldn't matter when you execute the ant script directly,
 instead of through build.sh/build.bat.  The key issue is that
 ant resolves to $ANT_HOME/bin/ant for the $ANT_HOME library directory
 you listed above.
 
 Craig


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Moderation Duties...

2001-07-31 Thread Jon Stevens

Hi all,

In an effort to cut down on the amount of email I get and spend more time on
Scarab, I'm asking for volunteers to take over the duty of moderating the
emails sent from people who are not subscribed to the mailing list. Note:
people who are subscribed don't get moderated.

The duty is pretty simple...reply-to-all on the emails and the person will
get added to the approve list. Reply on the emails and the person will get
approved once. You can also disapprove emails as well if they are clearly
spam or something else lame.

It isn't a huge amount of email, maybe 0-10/day, but it is taking more time
for me to deal with it than I would like...I'm also getting behind on my
duties...

I would appreciate it if one person would just step up and take over all of
the lists. That would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s job of switching me off
easier since it can be scripted.

In order to take over the duties, all you need to do is send email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and mention the lists that you would like to take
responsibility of.

I'm currently moderator for at least the following lists (as well as the
-cvs alias), maybe more:

Jmeter-dev
Jmeter-user
Jetspeed-dev
Jetspeed-user
James-user
James-dev
Turbine-dev
Turbine-user
Regexp-dev
Regexp-user
Ecs-dev
Ecs-user
Velocity-user
Velocity-dev
Jserv-user
Jserv-dev

thanks,

-jon


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Re: Enhancement to jakarta-site2 -- XSLT stylesheet equivalent tosite.vsl

2001-07-27 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/27/01 12:08 PM, Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Please help me debug this stylesheet, and improve its compatibility with
 site.vsl, by checking out the jakarta-site2 module and running the
 xslt target.  NOTE:  you will need to make sure that your Ant install
 includes the appropriate optional.jar file, and has access to either
 JAXP/1.1 (crimson.jar, jaxp.jar, and xalan.jar) or Xerces+Xalan.
 
 Craig McClanahan

For the life of me, I can't get the .jar file foo correct...

-jon

[204][ ~/checkout/jakarta-site2 ]% ant xslt
Buildfile: build.xml

xslt:
[style] Transforming into /Users/jon/checkout/jakarta-site2/xslt
[style] Loading stylesheet
/Users/jon/checkout/jakarta-site2/xdocs/stylesheets/site.xsl
[style] Failed to read stylesheet stylesheets/site.xsl

BUILD FAILED

/Users/jon/checkout/jakarta-site2/build.xml:103:
javax.xml.transform.TransformerConfigurationException: Namespace not
supported by SAXParser
--- Nested Exception ---

Total time: 2 seconds

[205][ ~/checkout/jakarta-site2 ]% dir $ANT_HOME/lib/
total 1584
   0 drwxrwxr-x   9 jon  staff 262 Jul 27 13:49 ./
   0 drwxrwxr-x   9 jon  staff 262 Mar 11 13:40 ../
   4 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff 153 Mar  2 04:46 README
 292 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff  295934 Mar  2 04:46 ant.jar
 184 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff  187246 Mar 23 17:23 crimson.jar
 244 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff  247802 Mar 14 07:09
jakarta-ant-1.3-optional.jar
   8 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff5537 Mar  2 04:46 jaxp.jar
 136 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff  136198 Mar  2 04:46 parser.jar
 716 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff  732330 May 23 05:45 xalan.jar

[206][ ~/checkout/jakarta-site2 ]% dir lib
total 1668
   0 drwxrwxr-x   9 jon  staff 262 Jul 27 13:47 ./
   0 drwxrwxr-x  18 jon  staff 568 Jul 27 13:43 ../
   0 drwxrwxr-x   6 jon  staff 264 Jul 16 16:08 CVS/
 292 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff  295934 Mar 11 13:48 ant-1.3.jar
 184 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff  187246 Mar 23 17:23 crimson.jar
  28 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff   28404 Mar  4 05:35 jaxp.jar
  80 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff   78541 Feb 14 11:56 jdom-b6.jar
 368 -rw-rw-r--   1 jon  staff  373565 Apr 30 13:24
velocity-1.0.1.jar
 716 -rw-r--r--   1 jon  staff  732330 May 23 05:45 xalan.jar


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Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)

2001-07-26 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/25/01 1:38 PM, Pier P. Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 burtonator at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 But they haven't approached us... And I believe the first step should be
 done by them..
 snip
 
 Not according to them.  They said that they approached Jakarta about 1 - 1.5
 years ago.
 
 Of course that was a LONG time ago :)
 
 :) Then it was when I was doing stuff over in XML land... Dunno about
 that... Jon? :)
 
   Pier

I remember a brief approach, but like Kevin said...that was a LONG time
ago...if they want to come now, then have them join this list and write a
proposal.

Pier is still right...unless a PMC member takes the initiative (like I did
with Lucene...and that will still happen someday), then it really isn't our
job.

-jon


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Re: jakarta-site2 process changes needed (heads up)

2001-07-20 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/20/01 12:14 AM, Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Heads up ... the old process for updating the Jakarta web site no longer
 works, since the CVS repositories are no longer present on daedalus.  It's
 too late tonight, or I'd actually figure out how to update fix -- but
 wanted to warn anyone else who was going to try.  The workaround is to use
 scp from your generated copies of the HTML files (instead of using cvs
 update on daedalus).

Type:

cd /www/jakarta.apache.org/site
cvs login

password is anoncvs

Nothing needs to be changed. This is actually yet another reason why I like
storing the compiled files in CVS. You can easily duplicate the site
across multiple machines in case one goes down.

-jon


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Re: problem with Apache email?

2001-07-19 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/19/01 6:51 PM, Morgan Delagrange [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 They are icarus and daedelus right?  I just tried icarus and it was no
 better.  But you're probably on to something, maybe something got goofed
 up in the transition to the new CVS server.  (I didn't actually get this
 email in my Apache account, by the way.  Had to paste it from Outlook.  :(
 )  I know a few other folks use the SMTP server; is everyone experiencing
 this?
 
 - Morgan

The smart  thing to do is to setup a .forward file and keep the resource
usage on apache.org down. Oh wait, I just posted about that like 2 days
ago...sigh...

-jon


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Re: [PATCH] mail2.xml

2001-07-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/16/01 5:44 AM, Stephane Bailliez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Added direct links to archive on all projects so that people like me who are
 used to marc.theaimsgroup.com on many Apache projects stop wondering where
 turbine-user archive.
 Some projects had such a link, so I extended it to all projects.
 
 They are all directed to www.mail-archive.com
 
 As a side effect, this should also decrease Jon's mails that contain RTFM,
 bonehead ! in the body :-)

Perfect! This is exactly the type of feedback and support that we need
around here. :-)

Patch applied and the site has been updated.

-jon


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Re: New CVS Host fingerprint?

2001-07-16 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/16/01 1:24 PM, robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 when i ping i get that
   cvs.apache.org is 64.208.42.41
   jakarta.apache.org is 64.208.42.42

Update your DNS entries...

nslookup cvs.apache.org
Server:  takahe.whichever.com
Address:  157.22.245.4

Non-authoritative answer:
Name:cvs.apache.org
Address:  64.208.42.42

-jon


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Re: mail at apache.org

2001-07-15 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/14/01 4:12 PM, Oleg V Alexeev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello ,
 
 Can anybody explain me mail send/retrieval connections turning at
 apache.org? I try to connect to the apache.org with pop3/smtp mail
 client directly and via ssh, but I have troubles anyway... What do I
 wrong?
 I check Mailbox file at apache.org this day and found some amount of
 letters inside of it - of course I can review it directly in shell,
 but I think that exists more useful way to use mail  at
 apache.org
 
 -- 
 Best regards,
 Oleg  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Log into your account and type this:

echo [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ~/.forward

Then, your mail will just be forwarded to you. You should do this as it
helps keep the resource usage on apache.org down.

-jon


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Re: No gump run today

2001-07-13 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/13/01 1:42 PM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Yesterday, it took 14.5 hours to do cvs updates across the various
 projects, and that is with 13 cvs updates cancelled due to timeout.  Today
 looks worse, so I've cancelled it after 13.5 hours and 15 timeouts.  Had I
 not cancelled it, it is clear that several projects would be seeing some of
 the same build failure messages for things already fixed.
 
 Last Saturday and Sunday, the cvs updates completed in a little over an
 hour each day.
 
 - Sam Ruby

Yesterday was a SMTPd DOS attack.

Today was a barrage of anon cvs checkouts which filled up /tmp

Brian knows about it.

-jon


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Re: Reply-to munging

2001-07-10 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/10/01 9:36 AM, Alex Chaffee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Can we turn off the munging of headers that is currently adding Reply-to on
 all the jakarta lists?
 
 Please read
 http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
 before asking why it's a problem.

-1

That document is one persons opinion and shouldn't be taken as everyone's
opinion. I would *hate* it to always get two copies of everyone's email
because people are lazy and don't remove the people when they reply-to-all.
Yes, I use procmail to filter on messageid, but making everyone do that is
uncool and it also doesn't work when the messageid from the list is
modified. Yes, I agree that mail clients should be improved to deal with
this better, but the fact of the matter is that that isn't going to happen
anytime soon.

Sigh, one of these days, I need to go write a document that discounts
everything that person says. Theory is a good thing, but practicality is
reality.

-jon


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Re: Top level intro to jakarta-site2

2001-07-10 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/10/01 5:03 AM, William BC Crandall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 I write this, because I am amazed by the Open software
 movement, am delighted by its Apache/Jakarta incarnation,
 and wish us all even more success in this arena.
 
 All the best,
 
 BC Crandall
 Wiesbaden Germany
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hello, please take a look at the page now. I have updated it to add more
information. If there is anything else I can do for you, please let me know.

Thanks,

-jon stevens

-- 
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html


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Re: Reply-to munging

2001-07-10 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/10/01 2:09 PM, Joseph Dane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml
 
 my vote, FWIW, is to leave things as they are.
 
 -- 
 
 joe

HELL YES!

That essay conveys *exactly* what I was thinking. I love it. Thanks for the
link. I'm saving that one forever.

-jon


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I find this funny...

2001-07-05 Thread Jon Stevens

ASP-JSP Translation...

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5092884,00.html

I'm sure that this was one of Sun's goals all along when they created JSP.
Unfortunately, the goal didn't seem to be more than that...like making JSP a
really good and innovative technology.

:-)

-jon

-- 
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html


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Watch what you say...

2001-07-05 Thread Jon Stevens

It might become a news article on a website...

http://xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1291

Lol!

Can someone please correct that CollabNet is not a Jakarta Project, but
instead a Company? :-)

-jon


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

2001-07-05 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/5/01 5:52 PM, Pier P. Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Ok, one day I'll change it (also because it generates 70% of the traffic on
 daedalus!)

And because CollabNet has to pay for that...

-jon


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

2001-07-03 Thread Jon Stevens

on 7/3/01 7:19 AM, Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I would like to propose the movement of the Helma XML-RCP package
 (http://xmlrpc.helma.org/) to Jakarta. The Helma  XML-RPC package
 is the most popular OSS XML-RPC package and Hannes
 Wallnoefer would like to donate the code to the Jakarta project.

Since SOAP is already over on xml.apache.org, shouldn't this go there as
well?

-jon


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Re: What are we doing in regards to JDK 1.4?

2001-06-21 Thread Jon Stevens

Edwin,

on 6/21/01 7:16 AM, Edwin Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 org.apache.regexp 1.2 is pretty much broken. It has some
 major flaws since 1.0 and they are still not addressed.
 
 See http://nagoya.betaversion.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=Regexp
 for a list of bugs (BTW none of them is assigned).

Sending in bug reports doesn't get the problems fixed. This is a community
of VOLUNTEERS. You can't just magically put in a bug report and then someone
is going to jump up and fix it...you have to submit patches or try to nicely
motivate people to fix it for you.

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/understandingopensource.html

With the opensource system, if you find any deficiency in the project, the
onus is on you to redress that deficiency.

 Maybe it's better to just throw regexp out of the window and
 use Sun's official regex.

Sun's official regex isn't available on a wide scale and won't be for
quite some time. People are talking about JDK 1.4 like they are going to
upgrade immediately when it took at least 2-3 years for people to even start
to stop supporting JDK 1.1 Some projects still haven't stopped! Not only
that, but you also have to worry about platform support. It takes years for
all of the platforms to support the latest and greatest JDK. It is also only
going to get more difficult as the JDK's get more complicated to implement
and port.

You have also seemed to forget (or not understand) the following:

#1. Before Jakarta Regexp there was NO solution that was under a BSD'ish
license. I was the one who made the effort to go out and find *something*
that we could use. It wasn't perfect, but it was a start.

#2. That prompted Daniel to change his license on his software as well as
donate his code base to us. You now have the distinct advantage of TWO regex
packages available under a BSD'ish license to choose from. Each one has its
faults and benefits...choice is a good thing.

Lastly, Regexp is not an easy problem to solve perfectly. Daniel has been
working on the ORO package for YEARS now and is still fixing bugs in it or
adding new features.

What makes you think that the Sun Regex package is going to come out in JDK
1.4 and be perfectly implemented? Even if the API is good (which Daniel has
already stated that it sucks) there will still be show stopper bugs in it
that YOU CANNOT FIX!!! because: 1) it is part of the standard JDK,
2) has a standard JDK release cycle and 3) YOU DO NOT HAVE THE ABILILTY TO
EASILY AND DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE SOURCE CODE DEVELOPMENT.

Sigh.

-jon

-- 
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html


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Re: Cactus Help Required

2001-06-21 Thread Jon Stevens

on 6/21/01 12:23 PM, Vaishnav, Kunal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Any idea of where I am going wrong?

You are posting to the wrong mailing list.

Post to the commons list.

-jon

-- 
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html


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Re: What are we doing in regards to JDK 1.4?

2001-06-21 Thread Jon Stevens

on 6/21/01 2:24 PM, Edwin Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I thought submitting bug reports is also an important
 way to support Open Source.

s/Open Source/Anything/

It isn't specific to OSS to submit a bug report...

 The code should be something like this:

Submit a patch to the regexp-dev mailing list. This is the wrong forum for
that discussion.

 It isn't really that hard to fix these bugs, I just wonder if there's anybody
 responsible for the regexp package.

The people who are responsible for regexp (or any of the projects for that
matter) are clearly defined in the CVSROOT/avail file.

-jon


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Re: What are we doing in regards to JDK 1.4?

2001-06-21 Thread Jon Stevens

on 6/21/01 3:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Wow! I'm glad I was browsing jakarta-general today - interesting and
 enlightening discussion.
 
 Re: influencing Sun: be sure to participate (or send feedback, or whatever
 they let you do) in JSR's of interest like Ceki was organizing.  Many of
 them do listen, even if the end result isn't always what you suggest.

Lets work for Sun for free too show them how to do things.

Why is there this constant pressure that we should be helping Sun increase
their stock price? You never hear such a thing from the language
communities.

 Also, there are Apache implementations that will be shipping with JDK 1.4 -
 Xalan (originally from Lotus) is the XSLT transformer reference
 implementation in JAXP 1.1, and a newer version will be in the JDK 1.4
 extensions directory.

Explain to me how is this legal under the current JCP licensing rules.

  I was doing an informal survey of Apache project's
 use at JavaOne recently and *lots* of products and companies are using our
 stuff.  Just wanted to note that it's not *all* bad news.

50-100k downloads / month of Tomcat. I think that we know this stuff is
being used. :-) If anything that should be more motivation for Sun and other
companies to spend more time adopting the stuff we are generating here. Like
I said before...500+ OSS developers is a lot more powerful than what Sun can
muster up.

 IMO, there will still be plenty of room for Apache projects to compete even
 against built-in features in future JDK's.  One thing that will really help
 this long-term is continuing to improve all our project's coordination and
 documentation - especially user-level documentation. I think both of the
 commons'es and the recent projects on getting a site-wide docset building
 from XML are excellent steps - we just need to keep working on this kind of
 issue.

Do we really need to compete at the tools and API implementation level
though? Wouldn't it make more sense to work towards one exceptional logging
implementation, one exceptional XSLT transformation engine, etc?

-jon


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Re: What are we doing in regards to JDK 1.4?

2001-06-20 Thread Jon Stevens

on 6/20/01 2:33 PM, Berin Loritsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I have been looking through JDK 1.4, and there are a few
 instances where what is included in the JDK steps on some
 of our projects.  Most notably:

This is a problem that I have been trying to wrap my head around for a
number of years now. The issue is that what happens to code you write that
is instantly obsolete by features added to the JDK distribution?

Turbine has this problem in a great degree. For example, we wrote a JDBC
Connection pool about 3 years ago. Now, JDBC has an interface and whole
system for creating a Connection pool. Personally, I think that it's
implementation is bad OO design because they overloaded the use conn.close()
to release the connection back to the pool in order to maintain backwards
compatibility easily without having to modify existing code. Sure, it makes
a good business case for existing code, but 10 years down the line, people
will wonder why close() also returns a connection to the pool. Long term
considerations were simply not made. :-(

This problem is only becoming more and more apparent and important as more
and more people's excellent OSS code becomes obsolete or questioned
(because it is not standard) literally overnight. It is nice to see that
others are now starting to get bitten by this as well. :-)

For example, I also have to deal with people like Craig constantly bringing
up the fact that Struts is more J2EE Compatible (and therefore better in
his eyes) than Turbine even though Turbine has had the same exact features
for years now and they have been well used, well liked, and well tested.
Probably more so than existing J2EE code.

Next year, you might hear him and others saying that Log4J or ORO or Regexp
(which is included in Catalina) or Avalon isn't J2EE Compatible because they
don't follow the specifications that Sun releases.

One could bring up the OSS argument and say that the code in the JDK isn't
OSS and therefore isn't worth using the API's, but that gets nullified as
soon as Sun decides to OSS the code or someone realizes that IT managers
don't listen very well.

Also, where do you draw the line? I know that JDBC has been around forever
and everyone agrees to use it, but what if we had some special way of
abstracting out talking to the database and suddenly JDBC came along and
usurped whatever we had used before? Same problem...

One can also spend many hours working for Sun for free, to try to convince
the super powers that their code is better than Sun's code or that Sun and
the JCP are doing something wrong in the API, but you end up having to
battle with the needs of not only yours but whatever commercial pressures
that Sun is under (look at their stock price as an example). You also get to
battle with the spec leads individual preferences. This is what Ceki is
doing with his Log4J. I'm sure that Daniel Savarese would be doing the same
for his ORO package if he had the time and energy to spend on it.

I guess the whole thing comes down to a matter of choice. Do we believe in
what we are doing here in Jakarta land? I certainly do. I don't always agree
with the choices that are made or the code that is produced, but I certainly
like our Apache open decision making processes a hell of a lot better than I
like the Sun/JCP's political mess.

Personally, I'm going to continue using and promoting Jakarta technologies
in favor of Sun's. If you believe in what we are doing, I hope you will do
the same. Will we conquer the world? I hope so...but it will only succeed if
you participate in our efforts. One thing to realize is that this group (XML
and Jakarta) is a collection of at least 500 very talented developers
working together in an open process for several years now. I don't think
that Sun can ever come close to matching that amount of momentum.

Long live: import org.apache.*;

-jon



!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN
HTML
HEAD

TITLEJava Template 
Language/TITLE

/HEAD
BODY BGCOLOR=#FF  TEXT=#00


P
FONT 
SIZE=+2General Instructions/FONT

P
This template has been designed to be 
easily filled out using an HTML editor. Please complete all sections. Don't forget to 
give the proposed specification a name. 

P
E-mail the completed JSR to: A 
HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED];[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A. Don't forget to include the 
name of the JSR in the subject line.

PAs stated in A HREF=jcp2.html#1Section 
1/A of the Java Community Process, JSRs will only be accepted from Members.

BRBR

HR

A NAME=1/A

PFONT size=+2Title:br/b(Insert JSR name 
here)/FONT/P

PJava Template Language/P

Pfont 
size=+2Summary:/fontbr(Please provide a description of the JSR in 30 words or 
less)/P

P
This JSR defines a template language, the functionality of the template 

processing engine, and supporting APIs designed for
formatting and processing textual 
and other information from Java.
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PFONT size=+2Section 1. 
Identification/FONT

PbSubmitting Member:/b Apache Software Foundation/P


Re: Size of the site...

2001-06-17 Thread Jon Stevens

on 6/17/01 7:12 PM, Pier P. Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Yep... I noticed. But if we want to have that site mirrored, we should do
 something before hands... What about creating a historic.apache.org, were
 older releases are archived, and keeping only the last 2/3 ones on the main
 web sites???
 
   Pier

Thanks for volunteering. :-)

-jon


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