cvs commit: jakarta-site/xdocs/site news.xml

[acoliver]

acoliver2003/07/29 22:11:46

  Modified:docs index.html
   docs/site news.html
   xdocsindex.xml
   xdocs/site news.xml
  Log:
  POI release
  
  Revision  ChangesPath
  1.278 +1 -1  jakarta-site/docs/index.html
  
  Index: index.html
  ===
  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site/docs/index.html,v
  retrieving revision 1.277
  retrieving revision 1.278
  diff -u -r1.277 -r1.278
  --- index.html28 Jul 2003 08:49:13 -  1.277
  +++ index.html30 Jul 2003 05:11:45 -  1.278
  @@ -226,6 +226,7 @@
   Jakarta Product 
news
   

  +30 July 2003 -  POI 
2.0-pre3 Released
   25 July 2003 -  Tomcat 
5.0.5 Alpha released
   16 July 2003 -  Velocity 
Tools 1.0 Released
  15 July 2003 -  
Tapestry 3.0-beta-2 Released
  @@ -235,7 +236,6 @@
   
   02 July 2003 -  Commons 
HttpClient 2.0 Beta 2 Released
   29 June 2003 -  Struts 
1.1 Released
  -25 June 2003 -  Commons 
FileUpload 1.0 Released
   
   Other news from Jakarta 
   and Elsewhere
  
  
  
  1.342 +27 -1 jakarta-site/docs/site/news.html
  
  Index: news.html
  ===
  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site/docs/site/news.html,v
  retrieving revision 1.341
  retrieving revision 1.342
  diff -u -r1.341 -r1.342
  --- news.html 27 Jul 2003 01:27:48 -  1.341
  +++ news.html 30 Jul 2003 05:11:45 -  1.342
  @@ -182,7 +182,33 @@
 
 
   
  -
  +
  +30 July 2003 - Jakarta POI 2.0-pre3 Released
  +
  +
  +The POI Team is proud to announce the immediate availability of the Jakarta 
  +POI 2.0-pre3 release.  This is the third milestone on the way to releasing 
  +the 2.0 production release.
  +
  +
  +WHAT IS POI?
  +The POI project consists of APIs for manipulating various file formats 
  +based upon Microsoft's OLE 2 Compound Document format using pure Java. In 
  +short, you can read and write MS Excel files using Java.  Reading property 
  +information is also supported.  Work continues on reading and writing the 
  +MS Word format.
  +
  +
  +DOWNLOADS (source and binaries):
  +http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-poi/dev/";>http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-poi/dev/
  +
  +
  +  For more information on Jakarta Poi, see the
  +  http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/index.html";>Jakarta Poi
  +  web site.
  +
  +
  +
   25 July 2003 - Jakarta Tomcat 5.0.5 Alpha released
   
   
  
  
  
  1.224 +1 -1  jakarta-site/xdocs/index.xml
  
  Index: index.xml
  ===
  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site/xdocs/index.xml,v
  retrieving revision 1.223
  retrieving revision 1.224
  diff -u -r1.223 -r1.224
  --- index.xml 28 Jul 2003 08:49:13 -  1.223
  +++ index.xml 30 Jul 2003 05:11:46 -  1.224
  @@ -47,6 +47,7 @@
   Jakarta Product news
   

  +30 July 2003 -  POI 
2.0-pre3 Released
   25 July 2003 -  Tomcat 
5.0.5 Alpha released
   16 July 2003 -  Velocity 
Tools 1.0 Released
  15 July 2003 -  
Tapestry 3.0-beta-2 Released
  @@ -56,7 +57,6 @@
   
   02 July 2003 -  Commons 
HttpClient 2.0 Beta 2 Released
   29 June 2003 -  Struts 
1.1 Released
  -25 June 2003 -  Commons 
FileUpload 1.0 Released
   
   Other news from Jakarta 
   and Elsewhere
  
  
  
  1.292 +28 -0 jakarta-site/xdocs/site/news.xml
  
  Index: news.xml
  ===
  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site/xdocs/site/news.xml,v
  retrieving revision 1.291
  retrieving revision 1.292
  diff -u -r1.291 -r1.292
  --- news.xml  27 Jul 2003 01:27:49 -  1.291
  +++ news.xml  30 Jul 2003 05:11:46 -  1.292
  @@ -11,6 +11,34 @@
   
   
   
  +
  +30 July 2003 - Jakarta POI 2.0-pre3 Released
  +
  +
  +The POI Team is proud to announce the immediate availability of the Jakarta 
  +POI 2.0-pre3 release.  This is the third milestone on the way to releasing 
  +the 2.0 production release.
  +
  +
  +WHAT IS POI?
  +The POI project consists of APIs for mani

cvs commit: jakarta-site/docs/site source.html

[acoliver]

acoliver2003/05/30 03:45:52

  Modified:xdocs/site source.xml
   docs/site source.html
  Log:
  patch from tetsuya
  
  Revision  ChangesPath
  1.12  +19 -1 jakarta-site/xdocs/site/source.xml
  
  Index: source.xml
  ===
  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site/xdocs/site/source.xml,v
  retrieving revision 1.11
  retrieving revision 1.12
  diff -u -r1.11 -r1.12
  --- source.xml25 Nov 2002 22:36:17 -  1.11
  +++ source.xml30 May 2003 10:45:52 -  1.12
  @@ -172,7 +172,25 @@
 utilities (such as diff and patch) that will turn your PC into a virtual
 Unix machine.
 
  -  
  +
  + Note:
  + If you use WinCVS, move to 
  + [Admin] -> [Command Line] Menu 
  + and type: 
  + cvs diff -u
  + at [Enter a cvs line command] input field 
  + ([Commandline Settings] Tab), 
  + while selecting the target directories or files, in order to create 
  + unified diffs.
  + In other words, [Alt+A]+[Alt+C]+
  + [Alt+C] and type "cvs diff -u".
  + Also, by adding the full path name of WinCVS-Installed directory to
  + "path" environment variables, you can use 
  + "cvs diff" command on the checked-out directory
  + (like cvs diff -u > patchfile.txt) recursively
  + via MS-DOS command prompt.
  + 
  +
 
 More detailed instructions for accessing Jakarta's CVS repositories with
 various tools and IDEs, including anonymous access, can be found 
  
  
  
  1.70  +17 -0 jakarta-site/docs/site/source.html
  
  Index: source.html
  ===
  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site/docs/site/source.html,v
  retrieving revision 1.69
  retrieving revision 1.70
  diff -u -r1.69 -r1.70
  --- source.html   30 May 2003 06:04:27 -  1.69
  +++ source.html   30 May 2003 10:45:52 -  1.70
  @@ -344,6 +344,23 @@
 utilities (such as diff and patch) that will turn your PC into a virtual
 Unix machine.
 
  +Note:
  + If you use http://www.wincvs.org/";>WinCVS, move to 
  + [Admin] -> [Command Line] Menu 
  + and type: 
  + cvs diff -u
  + at [Enter a cvs line command] input field 
  + ([Commandline Settings] Tab), 
  + while selecting the target directories or files, in order to create 
  + unified diffs.
  + In other words, [Alt+A]+[Alt+C]+
  + [Alt+C] and type "cvs diff -u".
  + Also, by adding the full path name of WinCVS-Installed directory to
  + "path" environment variables, you can use 
  + "cvs diff" command on the checked-out directory
  + (like cvs diff -u > patchfile.txt) recursively
  + via MS-DOS command prompt.
  + 
   
 More detailed instructions for accessing Jakarta's CVS repositories with
 various tools and IDEs, including anonymous access, can be found 
  
  
  

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cvs commit: jakarta-site/xdocs index.xml

[acoliver]

acoliver2003/05/29 06:57:40

  Modified:docs index.html
   xdocsindex.xml
  Log:
  Doh, I need another cup of tea
  
  Revision  ChangesPath
  1.242 +12 -12jakarta-site/docs/index.html
  
  Index: index.html
  ===
  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site/docs/index.html,v
  retrieving revision 1.241
  retrieving revision 1.242
  diff -u -r1.241 -r1.242
  --- index.html29 May 2003 13:53:56 -  1.241
  +++ index.html29 May 2003 13:57:40 -  1.242
  @@ -412,18 +412,6 @@
   
   
   
  -Tapestry:
  -
  -
  -
  -
  -Our newest web framework which seeks to find greater harmony 
between web designers and developers through a unique approach which experienced and 
novice developers alike will find enticing.
  -
  -
  -
  -
  -
  -
   Watchdog:
   
   
  @@ -502,6 +490,18 @@
   
   
   A model-view-controller framework for constructing web applications 
with servlets and JavaServer Pages
  +
  +
  +
  +
  +
  +
  +Tapestry:
  +
  +
  +
  +
  +Our newest web framework which seeks to find greater harmony 
between web designers and developers through a unique approach which experienced and 
novice developers alike will find enticing.
   
   
   
  
  
  
  1.191 +4 -4  jakarta-site/xdocs/index.xml
  
  Index: index.xml
  ===
  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site/xdocs/index.xml,v
  retrieving revision 1.190
  retrieving revision 1.191
  diff -u -r1.190 -r1.191
  --- index.xml 29 May 2003 13:54:08 -  1.190
  +++ index.xml 29 May 2003 13:57:40 -  1.191
  @@ -138,10 +138,6 @@
   A collection of JavaServer Pages (JSP) custom tag libraries useful 
in building web applications
   
   
  -Tapestry:
  -Our newest web framework which seeks to find greater harmony 
between web designers and developers through a unique approach which experienced and 
novice developers alike will find enticing.
  -
  -
   Watchdog:
   Compatibility tests that check a servlet/JSP container 
implementation of the corresponding specifications
   
  @@ -169,6 +165,10 @@
   
   Struts:
   A model-view-controller framework for constructing web 
applications with servlets and JavaServer Pages
  +
  +
  +Tapestry:
  +Our newest web framework which seeks to find greater harmony 
between web designers and developers through a unique approach which experienced and 
novice developers alike will find enticing.
   
   
   Turbine:
  
  
  

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Re: Jakarta POI audit.

[acoliver]

Excellent.  It took me about 15 minutes to prepare this audit.  Because I
take my responsibility as a:

member (including my oversight responsibility)
Jakarta PMC member
committer
developer
POI-person
good citizen of the Apache community

seriously, I intend to perform this audit at least quarterly.  I'll always
have them available on the wiki page so that my peers can review them:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPOIAudits

I've also created this page:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?ASFAuditPages

for others who wish to do the same.

I expect to get a softer pillow out of this.  Meaning because I know that
I've done my work and that my peers have reviewed it, I know that POI won't
be shut down due to liability concerns, that the Apache project's furture is
protected and that non-member committers to POI can rest assured that we've
done our best to protect their contribution.

I intend to invite other POI committers to either perform the audits or
collaborate on them (since its 15 minutes work I imagine the first will be
more common).  This will help prevent the "ya ya" effect of
form-filling/cutting-pasting.

I invite anyone who has a question about the audit or is interested in how
to apply the same on their project to please write.  I'll do my best to
answer any questions.

Thanks,

Andy
- Original Message -
From: "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Jakarta POI audit.


> Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> >>In summary, there are no controversial licensing issues for the Jakarta
> >>POI project itself.  The only area of question is whether Centipede's
> >>use of LGPL libraries and POI's use of Centipede as a build tool
> >>constitutes a problem.  We are eager to resolve this in the event the
> >>board sees this as a problem.  It is our preference to continue using
> >>checkstyle unless there is an actual legal issue.
> >
> > (Not looking at centepede here) : POI can even use GPL for building.
> > There is an exception when a buildtool adjusted the content of the thing
> > it processes (don't get me on legal stuff here though :). It is written
> > down in the gpl fag on fsf.org.
> > httpd else would have to be gpl too, since it may use gpl'ed buildtools
> > to get it build, which is clearly not the case.
>
> Agreed.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
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Re: [OT] Re: [Proposal] Jakarta Ruper

[acoliver]

A great Idea!  I look forward to seeing you on the ruper(or whatever it ends
up being named) list!

> Moreover, the advantage of Java in this case is that we can distribute
binaries,
> which reduces the installation time from centuries to minutes. My tests
with
> an ebuild for Maven were quite promising (that was before the big
Jelly/Maven
> mess). Of course we can still use sources, to see the tests running and
stuff.
> (A sort of binary/source switch would be great, but this is completely
> off-topic!)
>
> Cheers,
> Stéphane
>
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interesting

[acoliver]

http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Interviews/DonDeut
sch/
(from the front page of java.sun.com)

My favorite part:

 But, as you might expect, among a population as broad and diverse as the
Java community, with all of the corporate perspectives and individual
interests, there was not an immediate path to agreement on a number of
issues.  Frankly, coming to consensus was much harder than I ever imagined.

-Andy


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Re: nice

[acoliver]

Right but he's not AFAIK working there now and potentially exposed to
NDA-tainted individuals :-)

-Andy
- Original Message -
From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: nice


> On 30/1/03 13:26 "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 10:03 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig
at
> >> Microsoft.  (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java).  Had I
sold
> >> my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache?
> >
> > In my brief association with the ASF, I have never heard of a person
> > being discriminated against because of their employer.
>
> Let's not forget that our CHAIRMAN (Greg Stein) worked for quite an
> extensive period at Microsoft... And he's one of the nicest guys I've met
in
> my entire life:
>
> From :
>
> > Between 1996 and 1998, Mr. Stein worked at Microsoft as a Development
Manager,
> > in the Commerce Server and Site Server groups. He was also a co-founder
and
> > the Corporate Technologist of eShop, one of the first electronic
commerce
> > software companies, before its acquisition by Microsoft in 1996.
>
> Pier
>
>
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Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]

[acoliver]

Extemely well said.

Please get well soon my friend!  :-)

-Andy
- Original Message -
From: "Santiago Gala" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:30 AM
Subject: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]


> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
>
> (...)
> > It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the
> > process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped.  The
> > only alternative is to try to start another standards body, but I think
> > you will find that, like the other standards bodies, that NDA's will be
> > a part of the process if you want serious players to participate.  One
> > of the big issues surrounding standards is the inclusion/discussion of
> > proprietary information offered by participating entities (companies).
> > Whether or not you like the existence of commercial entities in the
> > process, they are there.
> >
>
> OK, I'll buy the previous paragraph. But that the participants do sign a
> NDA does not mean that the group is silent throughout the process, as it
> often happens with current JSRs. While I can understand that some of the
> discussions should remain secret, I think that partial agreements (or
> blocked areas), roadmaps, current work, etc. could and should be
> communicated, and also feedback asked more frequently. At a bare
> minimum, a JSR should publish something (be it a status report, demo,
> API proposal, open issue list, recount of activity,...) at least every
> three months, and use this information to gather feedback from the
> outside via a public discussion list.
>
> I think the spirit is something along these lines, with the public draft
> phase, etc., but I think the process can be (and sometimes is) seriously
> abused. I also think that the temporal granularity of the process was
> meant to be much smaller than it is becoming, so the concerns I express
> do apply more and more.
>
> Another *constructive* suggestion could be having a different role,
> people that would not be forced to sign a NDA, and thus could only be
> exposed to "public domain" information, but who could be involved in the
> process restricted to this. This would enforce even more the need of
> regular unrestricted feed back. These people could act as "hubs" between
> public lists and the EG.
>
> The whole process reminds me of the bullshit that the European Esprit
> Program became some time ago, where any company could refrain from
> having to justify public money by just saying that the work was "a
> commercial trade". I've played in this field already, and in both sides.
;-)
>
> Regards, (I'm trying to be as much constructive as I can, being in bed
> with a flu and my back aching, pending a NMR test to see if it is
> damaged or not ...)
>   Santiago
>
> > geir
> >
>
>
>
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Re: nice

[acoliver]

> There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure
> agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound
> by the same agreements.  If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP
> discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up.
>

+1 - especially if a goal of it is to foster change within the JCP and
promote an open model for the JCP and Java.

-Andy

> geir
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr   203-956-2604(w)
> Adeptra, Inc.   203-247-1713(m)
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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Re: nice

[acoliver]

And they would not be able to collaborate with their fellow members who are
not in the expert group due to NDAs.

-Andy
- Original Message -
From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: nice


>
> So the solution for committers who would like to be involved in the JCP is
> to hand around their announce list and website, when a particular new JSR
> is announced they can go volunteer. If successful, then they would do the
> agreement thing and be an ASF representative?
>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>
> > on 2003/1/29 7:16 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > The ASF is a member.  Any ASF member is covered by that agreement, and
> > > can thus, if they choose, represent the ASF on the EG if the EG
> > > accepts.  IIRC, non-members can also represent the ASF on an expert
> > > group, but it does require JCP agreements to be signed.
> >
> > Correct.
> >
> > -jon
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: nice

[acoliver]

Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig at
Microsoft.  (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java).  Had I sold
my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache?

While I do not subscribe to the jcp ot apache det org mailing list due to
the NDA contractual obligations surrounding it (hear no evil, see no evil,
and therefore speak no evil), what if Jon said "Hi Andy, fellow member, here
is the scoop on whats going on with JSR-1234" or moreover what if he didn't?
Maybe I'm tainted by merely speaking (electronically) with Jon due to his
indemic taint of JCPness.  So then I go back to work at M$ and start hacking
on I dunno ASP or something.   Sun gets wind of it and says "HEY ASP is
stealing our stuff (though we stole it from them)"

Or since the JCP seeks to create a spec for everything, what if I work for
some other company which say puts out anything to do with "Micro" devices
(pdas, etc) or portals.  Am I a potential object of litigation just through
my association with Apache and Apache's association with the JCP?

I'd sure feel a lot less fear, uncertainty and doubt if all my fellow apache
members weren't under NDAs carrying around tainted knowledge which is
proprietary of Sun. It seems an open process would sure make the JCP  a
whole lot more appealing.

But then I'm weird like that.

-Andy
- Original Message -
From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: nice


>
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> > We have 'infiltrated' it.  The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE
> > executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many
> > members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs.
>
> Yeah I know. Thus my questions as to whether Apache/you should/could be
> saying anything against the negative views of the JCP.
>
> > FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous JCP
> > rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental in
> > fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so.
>
> This is about all I do hear regarding ASF/JCP.
>
> > There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure
> > agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound
> > by the same agreements.  If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP
> > discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up.
>
> Just the FAQs. Like, does Apache have a non-profit membership? So that
> anyone who is an ASF member is able to be on multiple JSRs, or are you all
> members via your companies?
>
> As a member through Apache, does that cause any legal contractual issues
> with employers?
>
> Hen
>
>
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[Fwd: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation]

[acoliver]

I need to read it a few times...but it sounds good. 

The devil will be in the details... "scholarship" is an interesting choice
of words regarding TCKs but I can see how they might want to be selective.
--- Begin Message ---

JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation:

The Apache Software Foundation published a position statement summarizing its
concerns on the work in process to revise the JSPA. Sun is proposing changes to
the JSPA draft so that all of Apache's requirements are satisfied.  To find out
how this is or will be made so, both in letter and in spirit:

http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html

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Re: RE: Jakarta Overview

[acoliver]

>Does this mean that anything "donated" is accepted on behalf of the
project,
>by anyone with karma, without discussion and can therefore only be openly
>opposed once it has already been accepted?
>

I think the line of thinking behind the question (irrelevant of the question
itself) is incorrect.  Think postivively.  "I have reservations about this
page, so I'm going to patch it and improve it so that is acceptable to me. 
I relize while I feel the 10,000k view on the front page is sufficient, that
not everyone (especially dull folks like that Andy Oliver) might not and
might want more indepth information.  So I'll submit patches removing the
seemingly biased information and expanding it in a way that makes it more
useful in my opinion.  Furthermore I'll add a disclaimer that says the
information may be out of date as committers may not update it."

>What if (and I don't, I'm just asking) modification and inaction are not
>enough for me, I want to veto it?

Then thats pretty serious.  That says "nothing about this is good and the
author's contribution is rebuked".  Might be a bit drastic.

>I don't have enough Karma for Jakarta-site2, but if I did would I be within
>my rights to arbitrarily remove it? I think, and hope, not.
>Therefore it seems that it is a bigger hurdle for a donation of this kind
to
>be vetoed than accepted.
>

I sure hope so.

>> Regardless of the content, it's important to recognize that the initial
>> author Did The Right Thing. The overview was prepared in XML and
>> required no afterwork to commit. This makes him a Contributor in my
>> book. If more of our users went to the trouble this person went to, we'd
>> have more and better documentation throughout Jakarta.
>
>You're absolutely right, I agree utterly with that statement, and I hope my
>miserable grumping doesn't put him off.
>
>
>> Apache stands for patching ...
>
>But we don't want to have to patch any old thing that comes swinging by, do
>we?
>

No, but the bar should be higher for just vetoing and nullifying
contributions then for improving upon them.  One is negative and destructive
the other is positive and constructive.

>Surely there could be a slightly better, and simple, way of accepting
>website proposals that makes it obvious that they are undergoing peer
>review?

>And in the interests of providing construtive criticism I'll propose --
>A "proposals" section of the site, into which anyone with karma can commit
>any submissions and from which documents can be promoted by lazy concensus
>of all jakarta commiters. Its stylesheet will include a footer explaining
>the status of proposal documents(if thats possible). -- for instance?
>

Why what a novel Idea: 

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/resolutions/index.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/resolutions/res001.html

>d.
>
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Re: RE: Printable pages

[acoliver]

...grumble..grumble...old browsers...upgrade...grumble...dark
ages...internet...grumble...netscape4.7x...sucks..grumble...

>On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:57:35 -0500 "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>In that case, the entire Jakarta site needs to be redesigned.
>It makes use of embedded tables and  elements.  It does
>not use CSS at all.  We also have issues with older browsers.
>Only versions 5.5 and later will support the Print stylesheet.
>
>IE 5.5 
>Netscape 6
>Mozilla
>
>Anything before that, and you can't count on the stylesheet
>working.
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 3:51 PM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: Re: Printable pages
>> 
>> 
>> What I would like to do regarding this is to not have to 
>> generate two sets of pages or have to generate PDF files as 
>> well as HTML.
>> 
>> I would rather see the Jakarta site/stylesheet to use CSS and 
>> take advantage of the  tag to have a printable stylesheet...
>> 
>> This is what Scarab does...
>> 
>>   > href="/scarab/style/print.css" media="print" />
>> 
>> -jon
>> 
>> 
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Re: Re: [OT] JCP rant

[acoliver]

>On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 20:47:26  0100 Ceki =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FClc=FC?=
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>All very good points. The question on my mind is whether these
>problems can be corrected in the future by opening up the (JCP) Java
>Community Process or whether the closed-like-a-clamp is a symptom
>of a more serious and profound disease - my suggested name would
>be "clampitis."
>
>Does anyone has a satisfactory answer? For one, Sun has been
>uttering (muttering?) the correct noises lately. However, it is hard
>to say whether they are sincere or just pre-JavaOne acting.
>
>As you say, the issues are not related solely to licensing. When I
>stop and ask: "what is in it for Sun?" the answers are not very
>encouraging.
>

better APIs and free developers in the upcoming fight with Microsoft.  (Sun
has to wake up and smell the Java burning first)  But first Sun needs to
decide what kind of witch it wants to be.  A hardware witch or a software
witch or "why I'm not a witch at all" and then find a place on the
sidelines.  Sun's never been very good at selling software.  What are their
Java products... an IDE that only got decent when they opensourced it
(pattern forming with that), and the reminants of Netscape's app server
business.  Big iron hardware is fading. .  Sun needs to build cheaper fast
little servers for the many mini-me's strategy that is now popular in IT
versus the "big server".  And thats whats wrong with its hardware bizz. 

So Sun is trying to sell its tools now...  Look at this months DDJ, lots of
spreads on "the netbeans platform" and Forte.  What's your next product Sun?
 I have a novel concept... it Ain' java licensing fees.  They need real
products, and for Java, they need open development of it.  Come up with some
products though! geesh.

-Andy

>At 14:12 21.03.2002 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Somebody asked on the axi-user mailing list why they should use Axis
>>instead of JAXM.  I offered some comments, but tried not to stray
>>too off topic.  In light of a recent JCP-related thread, I thought
>>there might not be any objections on general@jakarta if I vented for
>>a minute.
>>
>>When you use JAXM, you'll run up against all sorts of limitations and
>>the best you can do is send a suggestion/comment to an email address.
>>With Axis, or any Apache project, if you run up against a limitation,
>>you can discuss it on a mailing list and submit a patch.
>>Hypothesis: JCP JSRs that have more frequent feedback iteration cycles and
>>provide source code tend to produce better results than those with fewer
>>feedback cycles.  I'll use JAXM and JAX-RPC as examples.  JAXM
>>had no mailing list for developer discussion/feedback as it was being
>>designed/developed with only the usual JCP JSR comment address.  JAX-RPC
>>has a jaxrpc-interest mailing list that has helped the spec evolve into
>>something more likely to be useful to developers.  With something as
>>simple as a mailing list a JCP JSR can gather much better requirements.
>>However, neither JSR provided source for their reference implementations,
>>making debugging and patch submission an impossibility.
>>
>>The problem with the JCP is not merely the licensing.  It is also the
>>basic JSR procedures.  The objective of a new API is to meet some set
>>of developer requirements in a particular application domain.  If you
>>don't consult with your users, the target developer group, you probably
>>won't develop a useful result.  JSRs would produce better results if run a
>>little more like Apache projects, with more opportunity for user feedback
>>in an open forum to mold the ultimate result into something useful.
>>
>>daniel
>>
>>
>>
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Re: RE: LICENSE in .jar files

[acoliver]

I do.  I was just curious.


>On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:26:50 -0500 "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
>> 
>> BTW.  Define: "release" ;-)
>
>
>That sounds like former persident Bill Clinton with his
>"define sexual relations".  Such a question insinuates
>guilt, and that you are trying to find a letter of the
>law loop hole to be clever about.
>
>Lawers are like wolves, they'll eat you for lunch.  You
>may think you have a loop hole, but just shed the right
>light, and it is exposed.
>
>You're always better following the spirit of the law,
>because the devil is in the details (and in the pin
>striped suite)
>
>> 
>> On Wed, 2002-03-20 at 19:55, Conor MacNeill wrote:
>> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> > > On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I think what Peter said was that you can read the spec 
>> only if you 
>> > > agree with the licence, and that prevents you from 
>> implementing it 
>> > > unless you follow all the rules.
>> > >
>> > 
>> > You can read the spec. You just can't use the spec to create a 
>> > cleanroom implementation of the specification. You can 
>> still read it 
>> > to understand how to use somebody else's implementation. 
>> Presumably, 
>> > however, having read the spec, you are tainted.
>> > 
>> > > That includes the requirement to pass the official test 
>> suite, and 
>> > > probably other restrictions I don't understand.
>> > 
>> > The problematic clause is this one, I presume:
>> > "(vi) satisfies all testing requirements available from the 
>> > Specification Lead relating to the most recently published 
>> version of 
>> > the Specification six (6) months prior to any release of the clean 
>> > room implementation or upgrade thereto;"
>> > 
>> > Presumably we cannot distribute the xml-apis unless we can 
>> meet this 
>> > requirement of the spec.
>> > 
>> > This page http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/final/jsr063/
>> > 
>> > asserts that there is a JAXP TCK, although you can't seem 
>> to purchase 
>> > it online.
>> > 
>> > Other restrictions - who knows? When the spec says "(vii) does not 
>> > derive from any of the Specification Lead's source code or 
>> binary code 
>> > materials;", it is not clear to me what that covers, 
>> especially in the 
>> > case of JAXP where I think the RI comes from Apache, based on code 
>> > originally contributed by the Specification Lead (Sun).
>> > 
>> > Also there may be a specific Out-of-Band Sun-Apache licence 
>> in place 
>> > as alluded to by Dirk earlier.
>> > 
>> > >
>> > > It's obvious some of the people who worked on this did 
>> read the spec 
>> > > - so it seems this is not a legal implementation.
>> > >
>> > 
>> > If there is no specific agreement between Sun and Apache covering 
>> > this, then I agree.
>> > 
>> > > The licencing and jcp lists are closed to the public, and 
>> this seems 
>> > > to be the job of the PMC and ASF ( to verify that all the 
>> software 
>> > > is legally used ). I can only hope a lawyer will be used 
>> to validate 
>> > > it.
>> > >
>> > > If this is not resolved - we have to start removing all 
>> dependencies 
>> > > to JAXP and all other APIs that are not legal, and 
>> eventually work 
>> > > on replacements.
>> > >
>> > > There is no other way.
>> > 
>> > I presume you can still depend on JAXP without having your 
>> own clean 
>> > room implementation, nor including it in a distribution. You would 
>> > have to require the user to acquire their own copy of the jaxp 
>> > classes/interfaces. I haven't seen any restrictions in the spec on 
>> > linking.
>> > 
>> > Conor
>> > 
>> > 
>> > --
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>> additional commands, 
>> e-mail: 
>> > 
>> > 
>> -- 
>> http://www.superlinksoftware.com
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 
>> Compound Document 
>> format to java 
>> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555
>..html 
>   - fix java generics!
>The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
>vote. -Ambassador Kosh
>
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Re: Re: Jakarta Overview

[acoliver]

+1 - I'd like to see the detractors patch it as they see fit.

>On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:56:31 -0800 Daniel Rall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html#0319
>>
>> Thank you for your contribution. 
>
>I would be in favor of having the overview linked off of the "About
>Jakarta" section of the left nav.
>
>Index: project.xml
>===
>RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/xdocs/stylesheets/project.xml,v
>retrieving revision 1.28
>diff -u -u -r1.28 project.xml
>--- project.xml17 Mar 2002 11:20:42 -  1.28
>project.xml19 Mar 2002 16:55:55 -
>@@ -17,6  17,7 @@
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
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Re: Re: License issue (the come back)

[acoliver]

>On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:05:41  0100 Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you break US law while in France without
breaking any French laws and no US laws covered by extradition treaties, I
don't think you care unless you enter the US physically (and have ticked off
someone enough to notice).  I also don't think a license can bind you to
follow US law.  Moot point for me, but maybe not for others.

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Re: Re: ASL vs. GPL page?

[acoliver]

>On 06 Mar 2002 14:50:24  0100 Gunnar =?iso-8859-1?q?R=F8nning?=
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.


Thats how I feel.  Take POI, for instance, we don't want most things that
*could* be donated.  For example: say you write an office suite in Java... 
Cool, feel free to opensource it, but its way outside project scope..  We'll
fully support your efforts and mention you "poi/inthenews.html", but I sure
do hate doing GUI stuff ;-).  Next, anyone who's logic is flawed enough to
NOT want to donate their code back into the tree (so that it can be done
once and not thrice when you upgrade to the next release) -- we really
wouldn't want it (it would likely suffer from the same illogic)...

I'm just saying I object to the title ASL vs GPL etc..  The manual links to
a page I think is sufficient.  I think it should link to the o'reilly page
too because its very comprehensive and reasonably objective.  I object to
the idea that you MUST use GPL to get code donations...  *shrugs* but maybe
thats just me.

-Andy

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Re: Re: ASL vs. GPL page?

[acoliver]

>On Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:09:23   Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>A lot of "what we think and why" is on the web already... It's in the mail
>archives, in the presentations to different conferences, and so on... The
>word is out there, you just need to know where to look for...
>

Right, obviously he sees a need for a more collected page.  *shrug* I just
told him *submit one* -- My personal opinion is that while a prominent page
(fear of GNU backlash side) explaining the license would be helpful or just
a prominant link to the O'Reilly article, I don't really see the need for
GPL vs APL.  A page that had that title would be more reflective of the GNU
position on the subject.  There is quite a bit of confusion on the license,
I don't think a prominant page on it would be so controversial.

I consider the statement "you just need to know where to look for" to be a
symptom of improper information organization.  Such things should be *easy*
to find.  Initiation into our community(ies?) has a higher barrier than I
prefer, you can never have too much or too well organized documentation.
(this is not to say that those who don't even read the web page before
emailling committers "gee is POI written in Java"  won't still be
challenged...and thats a good thing, but that those who are just simple
minded programmers like me looking for a place to code or who want to know
"do I have to donate my hello-world app based on" to look.

>Pier
>
>
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Re: Re: Boycott JavaOne? was Re: Re: StudioZ (was: Re: JakartaOne?)

[acoliver]

yeah!  And maybe pay for it if we get like 10% of the profits of the
beveraging of everyone who we get to come ;-)

>On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 14:05:20 -0600 "Morgan Delagrange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>We could save travel money if we slept under the bar.
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "acoliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 1:56 PM
>Subject: Boycott JavaOne? was Re: Re: StudioZ (was: Re: JakartaOne?)
>
>
>> If a group were zealously opensource, a group Could publically boycott
the
>> JavaOne, hold a "countersession" called "JakartaOne" at a bar or club and
>a
>> certain club owner might make a killing in selling inebriation to geeks
>and
>> make a very public spit in a certain corporations eye.
>>
>> Hypothetically of course.  It would certainly make for interesting
press..
>>
>> Moot for me because of my limited wealth.
>>
>> -Andy
>>
>> >On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:20:48   Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote.
>> >"Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I would love to host JakartaOne at Studio Z. I think it would be a lot
>of
>> >> fun.
>> >>
>> >>   For free. *
>> >>
>> >> However, I do need to know the day/time/length of the event as well as
>> what
>> >> other things will be needed (chairs/tables/whatever). Unless some
>people
>> >> here volunteers, I can look into getting some great local
>> >> techno/house/trance/ambient DJ's to spin music.
>> >>
>> >> We do have a DSL line into the space as well as ethernet drops
>literally
>> >> every five feet (the space was a .bomb before we moved in) and I will
>> have
>> >> an open 802.11b network available in the next week or so (as soon as
>the
>> >> Linksys is delivered). Bring your laptops. :-)
>> >>
>> >> Studio Z is not walking distance from Moscone, however, it is only
>about
>> a 5
>> >> minute, $4-5 taxi ride. Not a big deal.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> * The only requirement is that the date/times not conflict with any
>other
>> >> events that we are putting on there.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The Covalent deal also sounds cool, but I doubt they have a large
dance
>> >> floor and a big sound system. :-)
>> >
>> >And I can vouch for him... The space is _fantastic_... Been there, seen
>> >that, wanna get back! :) Go JON! :)
>> >
>> >Pier (for free? Where's that nice scottish spirit of yours! :)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >--
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Boycott JavaOne? was Re: Re: StudioZ (was: Re: JakartaOne?)

[acoliver]

If a group were zealously opensource, a group Could publically boycott the
JavaOne, hold a "countersession" called "JakartaOne" at a bar or club and a
certain club owner might make a killing in selling inebriation to geeks and
make a very public spit in a certain corporations eye.

Hypothetically of course.  It would certainly make for interesting press..

Moot for me because of my limited wealth.

-Andy

>On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:20:48   Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>"Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I would love to host JakartaOne at Studio Z. I think it would be a lot of
>> fun.
>> 
>>   For free. *
>> 
>> However, I do need to know the day/time/length of the event as well as
what
>> other things will be needed (chairs/tables/whatever). Unless some people
>> here volunteers, I can look into getting some great local
>> techno/house/trance/ambient DJ's to spin music.
>> 
>> We do have a DSL line into the space as well as ethernet drops literally
>> every five feet (the space was a .bomb before we moved in) and I will
have
>> an open 802.11b network available in the next week or so (as soon as the
>> Linksys is delivered). Bring your laptops. :-)
>> 
>> Studio Z is not walking distance from Moscone, however, it is only about
a 5
>> minute, $4-5 taxi ride. Not a big deal.
>> 
>> 
>> * The only requirement is that the date/times not conflict with any other
>> events that we are putting on there.
>> 
>> 
>> The Covalent deal also sounds cool, but I doubt they have a large dance
>> floor and a big sound system. :-)
>
>And I can vouch for him... The space is _fantastic_... Been there, seen
>that, wanna get back! :) Go JON! :)
>
>Pier (for free? Where's that nice scottish spirit of yours! :)
>
>
>
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Re: Re: Re: Get together / SunOne / JakartaOne / The One that binds them

[acoliver]

Heck yeah!  I'm also quite curious to see Jon's club.

>On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:17:54 -0600 "Morgan Delagrange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>- Original Message -
>From: "acoliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 12:59 PM
>Subject: Re: Re: Get together / SunOne / JakartaOne / The One that binds
>them
>
>
>> >On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:01:31   Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote.
>> >"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Including whiteboards, etternet-hubs, wireless, telcon/phone, coffee,
>> >> thee, softdrinks &c for one day (take your pick; tentative suggestion:
>> >> that Tuesday).
>> >
>> >Plane tickets? :)
>> >
>>
>> oooh h me too me too!  Throw in hotels and registration fees and I'm
>> there dude!
>>
>
>I don't even need registration fees.  I'd much rather go to JakartaOne.  :)
>
>- Morgan
>
>
>_
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>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Re: Re: Get together / SunOne / JakartaOne / The One that binds them

[acoliver]

>On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:01:31   Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Including whiteboards, etternet-hubs, wireless, telcon/phone, coffee,
>> thee, softdrinks &c for one day (take your pick; tentative suggestion:
>> that Tuesday).
>
>Plane tickets? :)
>

oooh h me too me too!  Throw in hotels and registration fees and I'm
there dude!

>Pier
>
>
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evaluation of "Synergy" was Re: Who Do I Contact to add a new Jakarta project

[acoliver]

quickhanded evaluation:

0. Method: merely unzipped and read through the code and the provided
information.  Coined the phrase "quickhanded" because I like making up my
own words if one doesn't come to mind.  (but it describes this does it not)

1. I'm underwhelmed with the prospect of collaborative tools that require
Internet Explorer.

2. Project makes heavy use of javascript... This is bad.

3. Project is implemented using JSP.  JSP is yucky, but this does use
Taglibs so that is good.

4. Sourcecode for said taglibs is not included in this distribution, nor is
any kind of build etc etc.

5. The is fairly decently documented.  I like that.

6. The documentation is in MS Word format...  I hate that.  (at least until
POI::HDF is done along with the Cocoon generator and then I can just read it
in mozilla as XHTML or PDF or something ;-) ).

7. I hate the orange and black theme...yuck.  Halloween is over.

8. This is basically bugzilla or Scarab (which I have not evaluated but I'm
sure is very nice) with things called "forums" which underwhelm me. (use
mail lists instead) The prospect of having to install oracle or DB2 or even
SQL-sorry-Server to store my bugs underwhelms me.  Only DB2 has been tested
(bah) and no bullet is there for PostgreSQL.  This really underwhelms me. 
5-10k minimum is a lot to spend for the kind of volume of data one gets from
a bug database.

9. One thing this could use that might make it worth looking at (if it
weren't implemented in sorry ol JSPs as opposed to XML or something that
would let me change the yucky halloween theme), would be something like the
Task Manager and Tracking fascilities from SourceForge.  I like that.  It
wouldn't work for every project but it worked quite nicely for POI before we
got to where "little" details took all of any given person's time.  It would
be better if tasks could be assigned to a person post-facto but *shrugs*.  

10. I find it doubtful this will attract much of a community.  This person
would be far better of contributing to Bugzilla or Scarab or some existing
project.  This project doesn't appear to revolutionize bug tracking, etc and
therefore "Yet Another BugTracker" implemented in yucky old JSPs is not
likely to make people jump out of their chairs and want to help. 
(espeically without the sourcecode!).  

11. In my humble and reserved opinion prospects are unlikely that this will
appear on Jakarta at any point in the near future.  (Not that I'm anybody to
say, just figured I'd step up and give an evalutation)

-Andy

>On 04 Mar 2002 16:10:39  0100 Stefan Bodewig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>Hi Doug,
>
>you are contacting the right people with this list.  For the process,
>please see .
>
>Could you tell us a little bit about the projects current community?
>How many users/developers are using/working on Synergy?
>
>I couldn't find any information on a project mailing list or similar
>at the link you have provided - or the USERS Guide.
>
>Stefan
>
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Re: Object/Relational Java Reflection Tool

[acoliver]

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html

In short...(I'm not on the PMC)...probably not.

>On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:59:20 -0500 "Lukas Bradley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>Hi all,
>
>Forgive me if this is not the place to post this to, but I was not very
>successful in finding a contact for new Jakarta projects.
>
>I have written an OR reflection tool that can save any Java object to a
>relational database.  This includes arrays of primitives and objects.
>
>Since I have been extremely lazy in marketing this for sale on my own, and
>since there are other, better OR tools out there, I was wondering if
Jakarta
>would be interested in welcoming it as a new open source project.
>
>I'm very interested in continuing architecting/programming, as well as
>managing the development, but I would like it to be a part of a larger,
more
>*prestigious* (dare I say...) organization like Jakarta Apache.
>
>Questions?  Comments?
>
>Lukas
>
>
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Re: RE: update POI web

[acoliver]

Thanks Scott!  No problem.

>On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:25:53 -0800 "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>Done.  Sorry Andrew.

>

>Scott

>

>> -Original Message-

>> From: Scott Sanders 

>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:23 AM

>> To: Jakarta General List

>> Subject: RE: update POI web

>> 

>> 

>> I will do this now.  Apologies to everyone.

>> 

>> Scott

>> 

>> > -Original Message-

>> > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:54 AM

>> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>> > Subject: Re: update POI web

>> > 

>> > 

>> > on 2/28/02 4:54 AM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> > 

>> > > 

>> > > I tried to do it but someone *sough* sanders *cough* needs

>> > to change

>> > > thier umask because they updated your website and forgot 

>> to make it

>> > > world writeable

>> > > ;)

>> > 

>> > Not 'world' writeable...it should be 'group' writeable.

>> > 

>> > Scott, put this in your .tcshrc (or whatever shell you use)...

>> > 

>> > umask 002

>> > 

>> > -jon

>> > 

>> > 

>> > --

>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   

>> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>> > For

>> > additional commands, 

>> > e-mail: 

>> > 

>> > 

>> 

>> --

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>>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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>> additional commands, 

>> e-mail: 

>> 

>> 

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Re: Re: OT: Someone better warn Sam Ruby

[acoliver]

wrong kind of stoned.  Read the article ;-)

>On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:44:50  0100 (CET) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote.
>
>On 23 Feb 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>> Open Source Developer Stoned...
>> http://bbspot.com/News/2002/02/stoned.html
>
>Why drink and drive if you can smoke and fly ?
>
>Dw.
>
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Re: Re: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.

[acoliver]

Is that not a measure of success?  A healthy and mature project shouldn't
depend on its founders for its continued development...  Congradulations to
the founders.  :-)

>On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:20:50   Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> The 7 people with the largest number of votes (in alphabetical order):
>> 
>> Stefan Bodewig
>> Craig McClanahan
>> Diane Holt
>> Conor MacNeill
>> Geir Magnusson Jr.
>> Costin Monolache
>> Sam Ruby
>
>Interestingly enough this will be the first PMC that doesn't contain a
>"founding" Jakarta member...
>
>Pier
>
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Re: Re: adding my project to jakarta

[acoliver]

>On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:13:50  1100 Peter Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.

No offense to commons but if one can make ones project move up the list on
sourceforge, I would venture to guess they'd get far more exposure then as a
new package under commons.  There is a hump to travel up on sourceforge, but
once you're over it your project gets in this reinforcing loop that causes
it to stay on the front page.  Heck, after POI moved to jakarta it still
managed to stay in the 96 percentile on Sourceforge and we've not released
in like a month or so.  Just my opinion.  One does have to market an
opensource project...there is no getting around it.  On sourceforge that
means you have to get enough going to get in the top 50.  (both by getting
traffic for the site and by committing enough to help raise the activity
rating).  If you do that the rest will follow (in my experience).  Being in
Commons won't help you in this respect as much as being front page on
sourceforge I'd venture to guess.

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Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[acoliver]

Darn...and I was saving that one for April 1 :-)

>On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:43:05 -0800 Micael Padraig Og mac Grene
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>Thanx, Andy.  There have been such rumours! ;-)
>
>At 08:02 AM 2/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Yes!  Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this
>>big farce..  We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to
>>Bill!  Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole
>>group!
>>
>>-Andy
>>
>>On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
>> > Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That
>> > amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?
>> >
>> > At 10:28 AM 2/24/02  0100, you wrote:
>> > >James Duncan Davidson wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI
implementation, a
>> > > > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
>> > > > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
>> > > >
>> > > > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying 
>> something
>> > > > like this about June of 2002.
>> > >
>> > >uh, I take this as a compliment :)
>> > >
>> > > > 
>> > > >
>> > > > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes 
>> it's not
>> > > > worth fighting all the battles at once.
>> > >
>> > >Wise words, brother, wise words.
>> > >
>> > >But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
>> > >
>> > >Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day
to
>> > >avoid all this.
>> > >
>> > >--
>> > >Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>> > >   able to give birth to a dancing star.
>> > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >--
>> > >To unsubscribe, e-mail:  

>> > >For additional commands, e-mail:

>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  

>> > For additional commands, e-mail:

>> >
>>--
>>http://www.superlinksoftware.com
>>http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
>> format to java
>>http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
>> - fix java generics!
>>The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
>>vote.
>>-Ambassador Kosh
>>
>>
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Re: Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[acoliver]

I think this would be less contentious then you think.  Basically if you add
the *oh the power of those who do* principal then you'll probably get some
list chatter but just say "are you volunteering" and they'll nearly
immediately shutup.  If you get two volunteers in the same area then its
quite simple: you have an alternative which will make for a better
distribution anyhow!  (You'll have the opportunity to develop better
interfaces and coupling etc in the "distribution" or "platform")...  

>On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:32:12 - "Tim Hyde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>Moving slightly retrograde on the proposal (in case we missed something
...)
>
>I think my suggestion for 'alternative to J2EE' probably muddies the
waters.
>There are a lot of candidates for inclusion, and it would be a horrible
>mail-fest even to think about choosing them. One focus must be to make
>selecting and evaluation a tool a relatively lightweight task for the
>intending user - because if it's part of this platform, (s)he will *know*
it
>delivers.
>
>GJT comes to mind as something to be added to Leo's list of similar
efforts,
>and I expect the list would end up quite long.
>
>Perhaps one thing that could be sensibly done is to strengthen the
packaging
>and market visibility of the things in the Jakarta family ? A great deal of
>pre-selection has already been done, and there is already a project name -
>Jakarta. 'Jakarta Development Kit' might not be the best proposal, but
there
>again ...
>
>There needn't be any intention on 'family' grounds to exclude any other
>toolset that was seen to be useful, but I can't quite get my head round the
>difficulties of choosing candidates or the weakness of too much dilution.
>Again, these are things that Jakarta has inherently worked through.
>
>Does this make the proposal any more practical ? Are there serious areas
>which Jakarta is missing ?
>
>Perhaps one of the more useful things we might be able to add are design
>papers un-biassed by the issues of market orthodoxies - even to the extent
>of pointing out areas where the Jakarta technologies aren't the best. Or is
>that getting too altruistic ?-)
>
>- Tim
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Leo Simons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: 25 February 2002 11:00
>Subject: RE: The Complete Server Platform?
>
>
>>
>> 'kay. Summary:
>> (everyone, please correct and add to?)
>>
>> ---
>> SIMILAR EFFORTS
>> ---
>> Here's a list of similar efforts that I know of...
>> (requirments:
>>1) some kind of application platform
>>2) 100ava
>>3) open source)
>>
>> JBoss
>> Jahia
>> Enhydra
>> EAS
>> OPEN ENTERPRISE DISTRIBUTION
>>
>> Candidate Components For Inclusion
>> --
>> Jakarta:
>> Apache XML:
>> SourceForge:
>> Exolab:
>> (...)
>>
>> Clearly, there are loads. We need some criteria.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Re: ApacheForge

[acoliver]

>On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:25:28   Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>"Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> on 2/20/02 8:35 AM, "Vladimir Bossicard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> Log4J was hosted on SourceForge
>>> POI was hosted on SourceForge
>>> BCEL was hosted on SouceForge
>>> 
>>> My point is that you need 'a' SourceForge to start your project.
>> 
>> No you don't.
>> 
>> http://share.whichever.com
>> 
>> It is just more 'convenient' for developers to use SF.
>
>As well on our small sites... http://eas.betaversion.org/index.jsp ...
>Ask and thou shall be given (if I like you! SourceForge doesn't actually
>have the "I like you" requirement, though! :) :) :)
>
>Pier
>

Just FYI

There is also the traffic issue.  If you have an active project, sourceforge
automatically publicizes the project on the front page.  Although,
alternative hosting was available for POI this was too valuable to pass up. 
(I have my own server www.superlinksoftware.com where POI started out)

-Andy

>
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Re: Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[acoliver]

>On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:29:39 -0800 Micael Padraig Og mac Grene
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>McClanahan ROCKS!
>

+1

>At 12:32 PM 2/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Craig McClanahan wrote:
>> >
>> > At Apache, I got involved in the Apache JServ project before there was
a
>> > Jakarta (along with other long timers like Jon, Pier, and Stefano), and
>>at
>> > the ApacheCon just after the Tomcat source code was finally handed over
>>to
>> > Apache, told James Duncan Davidson in front of several hundred people
>>that
>> > the Sun code sucked ;-).
>>
>>I was at that ApacheCon and can corroborate that Craig did exactly that.
>>
>> > One last note -- as most of you are probably aware, I work for Sun.  If
>> > that fact, by itself, affects your vote, then you need to think about
how
>> > much you really believe in Apache's credo that contributors should be
>> > judged on what they do, not who they work for.
>>
>> 1
>>
>>- Sam Ruby
>>
>>
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Re: [ANN] Apache's Position on the JSPA (was: Re: [Fwd: cvs commit:

[acoliver]

>On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:19:43 -0800 Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>on 1/30/02 4:15 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it
>> doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can you give me a
>> good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that effect.  It just
>> seems like we should be asking for something and being specific.
>> 
>> -Andy
>
>Here is "what we want":
>
>
>
>Kudo's to Jason Hunter for writing it.
>

  Awesome.

>thanks,
>
>-jon
>
>
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Re: Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[acoliver]

>On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:48:28 -0500 "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>Andrew C Oliver wrote:
>>>
>>> A few links:
>>>
>>>   http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html
>>>   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html
>>>   http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html
>>>   http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/
>>>   http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp
>>
>> I was aware of this.
>>
>> Bottom line: Port C# to Linux and then I'll at least look at it.  Until
then
>> C# is on my "heck no" list.  (Sorry)
>
>Obviously you didn't follow the links.  I've reduced the set this time.
>

I'll eat my words.  Damn, I just agreed to try C#.  Schisse, Ich glaube dass
nicht!  

It might be fun one day to create a C#-mono port of POInot right now
though...very busy.  

BTW I'll be offline next week.  Goin to Boston (actually NH, but flying into
Boston).  Anyone in Boston?

-Andy

>- Sam Ruby
>
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Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[acoliver]

>
>Peter is correct.  A few links (you can see my name in the first one):
>
>   http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/MEMENTO/TC39-G3.HTM
>   http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/NEWS/NEWS.HTM
>   http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html
>   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html
>   http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html
>   http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/
>   http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp
>   

I was aware of this.  I saw your mugshots and bios remember ;-)

http://www.microsoft.com/partner/products/microsoftnet/SharedSourceCsharpCLIFAQ.asp
>
>For those who don't know me and might perceive this as an endorsement, I
>have worn Microsoft shirts to JavaOne (just ask Pat Sueltz), and NetScape
>shirts to the Microsoft PDC (just ask Dick Hardt or the MS VP in charge of
>Hailstorm who's name escapes me at the moment).
>

ME TOO!! (well not JavaOne but other smaller more affordable events)

>Note: there are some people who view open source implementations of .Net as
>controversial as, say, open source implementations of popular MS file
>formats, for pretty much the same reasons.
>

*shrug* I have no objection to an open source impl. of .NET.  Hell if C#
turns out to be a decent language and ACTUALLY ran WELL on other platforms
I'd have not objection to it.  I'm convinced POI can crack open all of the
major Office file formats and do so workably.  If I wasn't I'd not be
involved in it.  I'm simply not convinced that you'll be able to make C#
more than it is (a proprietary answer to Java).  Moreover, POI is an
intellectual excercise.  We're implementing a convoluted binary structure
purely in a language with convoluted IO APIs.  What could be more
intellectually challenging than that?

>For my part, I have no interest in "sticking it to Sun".  Or to Microsoft
>for that matter.  I simply want to see more of us working together.  That's
>why I integrated PHP and Java.  That's why I created Gump.  That's why I
>participate in these standards.
>

To be clear.  What I meant was, C# on WINDOWS -- heck no. 
I don't want to use windows.  So far to be honest C# has failed to impress
me.  From what I've read, if I were to devote my time to another language,
it would probably be adding a bytecode compiler and runtime environment to
"D" http://www.digitalmars.com/d/

Bottom line: Port C# to Linux and then I'll at least look at it.  Until then
C# is on my "heck no" list.  (Sorry)

>- Sam Ruby
>
>
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Re: Re: J2EE considered harmful

[acoliver]

>On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:35:55 - "James Strachan"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > #1 you don't need to use EJBs to distribute business logic If you do
>need to
>> > distribute business logic, then there are various alternatives open,
>from
>> > HTTP/Servlets, JMS, SOAP or EJB. Each should be evaluated on their
>merits,
>> > cost/benefits etc.
>> >
>>
>> True, I don't like the Servlet approach.  I tend to admire clean code
>> and a Servlet approach makes this less likely (assuming the team is more
>> than 1 guy and you have differing skill levels on the team).
>
>There are many ways to work with HTTP, servlets is just one. There are many
>others even just at Jakarta. JSP, Velocity, Struts, Turbine, Avalon, Cocoon
>etc.
>

Of these I've used JSP, Struts and Cocoon.  There are a few contributions I
need to make to the other technologies documentation-wise before I'm
ready/able to use them.  From what I know of Velocity, Turbine, Avalon, they
look very promising and I plan to use them in the future.

>Incidentally having worked with various 'distributed models' such as CORBA
>and EJB I find Servlets the cleanest and best designed applicaiton server
>solution so far by quite some margin. There's a great open source
>implementation of the spec (Tomcat 4) and look at all the diversity in
>layers added on top to improve developer productivity.
>
>
>> JMS is not
>> appropriate for a number of areas.
>
>Like what?
>

UI, guaranteed failure situations.

>> In truth I've not yet learned enough
>> about SOAP to speak intelligently  about it
>
>All I'll say is I think SOAP has a much better future than EJBs.
>

>From what I've read I'd tend to agree, though it looks...bulky.

>> > #2 just because you may eventually distribute your business logic,
>assuming
>> > you're going to from the start (and assuming that means EJBs and then
>> > jumping through lots of EJB hoops & headeaches and paying a fortune to
>some
>> > EJB vendors) is bad XP practice IMHO
>> >
>>
>> I'm not into XP, but often the scalability concern happens over night.
>> There should be some framework in place for making it possible to do
>> this somewhat suddenly.
>
>There should be a strategy yes. Though this doesn't advocate EJBs. (Though
I
>don't think you are advocating them).
>

+1

>
>> I'd say you have about a weeks warning on most systems on just how much
>> you need to scale up after deployment.  Systems are make it or break
>> it.  You can apply techniques to make this more predictive, but a lot of
>> this happens outside my area of control most of the time.  (Political,
>> socio-economic and chaos theory are involved which often result in
>> unpredictable community size, and you must plan to be way off no matter
>> how careful or disciplined your approach)
>
>Agreed. Scalability needs to be thought about seriously.
>
>> > I prefer to take an XP approach, first build a web application that
>works,
>> > is performant and scalable then worry about whether business logic
needs
>to
>> > be distributed later. Afterall us Java folk are OO guys right? We can
>write
>> > our business logic in such a way that it could migrate to EJB later if
>we
>> > think thats the right thing to do.
>> >
>>
>> I'm more into a scalable version of the RUP.  In my opinion XP is a hack
>> of a methodology (the RUP actually covers most of its issues).  XP also
>> suffers from the misconception that programming is the most important
>> activity in software development (I would argue requirements gathering
>> as the most important activity in software development...programming is
>> easy, figuring out WHAT to program is hard This is not to say I'm
>> not into an iterative approach to this, only that I think XP is
>> lacking.  At least it admits its own lack of scalability.)
>>
>> One day I'll start a project to create a methodology that merges the
>> disciplined approach to software that I admire with the opensource
>> principles and approaches that I think are necessary for effective
>> teamwork.  (minus the flamewars ;-) ).
>>
>> > Or to put that another way - I'd prefer to focus on giving the customer
>what
>> > they want and making a good web application than grappling with EJBs
>just
>>
>> That is irrelevant to the issue.
>
>Not really but maybe I'm not expressing it properly. Using EJBs wastes
>*alot* of valuable developer time when they could be doing something more
>useful like adding new features, making things more scalable or making
>things more performant.
>

+1!  Like I said: EJB sucks.  We need something better, not *similar* but in
the same...space.  A few postings to this list have indicated such things
are in the works.  I'll be studying them once I achieve a lower level of
cycle utilization.

>
>> I would like to see an adequate
>> distributed system (which it looks like there are at least 2 in the
>> works within or slightly external to our community), and EJB does not
>> fit the definition.
>
>Agreed.
>

Re: Re: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[acoliver]

+1 

>On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:14:36 -0800 Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>on 2002.1.31 10:36 AM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
>
> 1
>
>-jon
>
>
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Re: Use of Jakarta guidelines for other Open Source project

[acoliver]

If I'm not mistaking aren't the guidelines APL'd?  Hence you can use them
provided you give credit and don't advertise your guidlines as Apache, or
Apache Jakarta or Apache Jakarta Guidelines? ;-)




>On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:47:00  0100 Mark Brouwer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>Hi there,
>
>Our company is at the point of starting an Open Source project for one
>of our Jini/Java projects. We are now in the process of writing our
>License and Community Guidelines.
>
>After studying and working with some Open Source guidelines we feel the
>ones applied by the Jakarta Project are the ones we would like to adopt. 
>As I found out, being a non native English speaker, rewriting a sound
>piece of guidelines in your own words is a non trivial task. Just screen
>scraping the Jakarta Guidelines without permission, and changing were it
>needs to be changed for our particular situation, wouldn't seem the
>right thing to do.
>
>Therefore I ask whether the Jakarta project would mind if we adopt the
>Guidelines and represent it on our site in a way somebody familiar with
>Jakarta would say "hm, that looks familiar, were have I seen this
>before ...".
>
>Of course proper credits will be given. Something that will be given
>anyway, for our project makes use of the various Jakarta subprojects.
>
>Please let me know whether you object against 'Open Guidelining' ;-)
>
>Regards,  
>-- 
>Mark Brouwer
>
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