RE: Forum Software.

[Patrick Ferdig]

I have to disagree.

I'm a lurker on general@xml and general@jakarta, only to keep up on the
latest issues in the community.  the mailing lists are passive for me; I get
the data no matter what and can choose to read or ignore it.  if I had to
depend on active participation, I'd never get around to perusing the forums
just to see what's going on.

for specific module questions (generally tomcat or ant), I access the
archives, and then subscribe to the appropriate list until I'm satisfied, an
then unsubscribe. (gmane sounds like an even better alternative)

an appropriately setup email agent with filtering and threading is the key.
and if MS outlook can handle it, other agents should be able to keep up.

Pat

> -Original Message-
> From: Dominique Devienne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 1:03 PM
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: Forum Software.
> 
> 
> Yes, what you're saying makes sense. From my perspective, 
> being quite active with ant-user (and ant-dev), but mostly 
> only lurking on apache-general, commons-users, turbine-maven 
> with occasional posts, I'd say that mailing lists are better 
> for active involvement, but news is better for lurking and 
> the occasional question to a list. This is why I thought 
> Gmane would be ideal for the latter; unfortunately it doesn't 
> allow posting on non-public lists, like Apache lists 
> requiring registration. Once Gmane implements this feature, 
> lurking with occasional post will be easy (as I find using 
> news and mail together inconvenient). My $.02, --DD
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Kief Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 3:47 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Forum Software.
> 
> Robert Simmons typed the following on 03:20 24/01/2003 +0100
> >I say that forum software would be useful because I am in 
> three mailing
> >lists at apache that I use in order to ask questions.
> >Tomcat, Cocoon and this one. as a result i get an enormous 
> amount of mail. 
> >Aout 95% of it is irrelevant to me. Im having to filter
> >hundreds of messages per day and that is annyoing.
> 
> So, read the archive. The great thing about mailing lists is 
> ithey're open - anyone who wants to can put whatever 
> interface they like onto it - web, news, whatever. Don't like 
> the search engine? What search engine would you use if it was 
> a forum? Why not use that on an archive? Do you prefer the 
> threading in your favorite forum package to that in an 
> archive? Implement it.
> 
> A forum is a closed system, it limits access to a single 
> point, and eliminates choice. Rather than stripping 
> functionality away from people who use it just because you 
> don't like it, ignore those features and implement whatever 
> you do want.
> 
> Kief
> 
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RE: Forum Software.

[Dominique Devienne]

Yes, what you're saying makes sense. From my perspective, being quite active
with ant-user (and ant-dev), but mostly only lurking on apache-general,
commons-users, turbine-maven with occasional posts, I'd say that mailing
lists are better for active involvement, but news is better for lurking and
the occasional question to a list. This is why I thought Gmane would be
ideal for the latter; unfortunately it doesn't allow posting on non-public
lists, like Apache lists requiring registration. Once Gmane implements this
feature, lurking with occasional post will be easy (as I find using news and
mail together inconvenient). My $.02, --DD

-Original Message-
From: Kief Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 3:47 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: Forum Software.

Robert Simmons typed the following on 03:20 24/01/2003 +0100
>I say that forum software would be useful because I am in three mailing 
>lists at apache that I use in order to ask questions.
>Tomcat, Cocoon and this one. as a result i get an enormous amount of mail. 
>Aout 95% of it is irrelevant to me. Im having to filter
>hundreds of messages per day and that is annyoing.

So, read the archive. The great thing about mailing lists is ithey're open -
anyone
who wants to can put whatever interface they like onto it - web, news,
whatever.
Don't like the search engine? What search engine would you use if it was a
forum? Why not use that on an archive? Do you prefer the threading in your
favorite forum package to that in an archive? Implement it.

A forum is a closed system, it limits access to a single point, and
eliminates
choice. Rather than stripping functionality away from people who use it just
because you don't like it, ignore those features and implement whatever you
do want.

Kief

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Re: Forum Software.

[Dan Trevino]

On Fri, 2003-01-24 at 04:47, Kief Morris wrote:
> So, read the archive. The great thing about mailing lists is ithey're open - anyone
> who wants to can put whatever interface they like onto it - web, news, whatever.
> Don't like the search engine? What search engine would you use if it was a
> forum? Why not use that on an archive? Do you prefer the threading in your
> favorite forum package to that in an archive? Implement it.
> 

Not always a "great thing" unfortunately.  Not when a noob posts to the
wrong list, then insists _HE_ is not reading a mailing list because _HE_
accessed the list via a forum from some web site. ;) 

-- 
Dan Trevino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
bluemagnet, llc

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Re: Forum Software.

[Martin van den Bemt]

Very well said!

Mvgr,
Martin

On Fri, 2003-01-24 at 10:47, Kief Morris wrote:
> 
> So, read the archive. The great thing about mailing lists is ithey're open - anyone
> who wants to can put whatever interface they like onto it - web, news, whatever.
> Don't like the search engine? What search engine would you use if it was a
> forum? Why not use that on an archive? Do you prefer the threading in your
> favorite forum package to that in an archive? Implement it.
> 
> A forum is a closed system, it limits access to a single point, and eliminates
> choice. Rather than stripping functionality away from people who use it just
> because you don't like it, ignore those features and implement whatever you
> do want.
> 
> Kief
> 



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Re: Forum Software.

[Kief Morris]

Robert Simmons typed the following on 03:20 24/01/2003 +0100
>I say that forum software would be useful because I am in three mailing 
>lists at apache that I use in order to ask questions.
>Tomcat, Cocoon and this one. as a result i get an enormous amount of mail. 
>Aout 95% of it is irrelevant to me. Im having to filter
>hundreds of messages per day and that is annyoing.

So, read the archive. The great thing about mailing lists is ithey're open - anyone
who wants to can put whatever interface they like onto it - web, news, whatever.
Don't like the search engine? What search engine would you use if it was a
forum? Why not use that on an archive? Do you prefer the threading in your
favorite forum package to that in an archive? Implement it.

A forum is a closed system, it limits access to a single point, and eliminates
choice. Rather than stripping functionality away from people who use it just
because you don't like it, ignore those features and implement whatever you
do want.

Kief


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Re: Forum Software.

[Robert Simmons]

I say that forum software would be useful because I am in three mailing lists at 
apache that I use in order to ask questions.
Tomcat, Cocoon and this one. as a result i get an enormous amount of mail. Aout 95% of 
it is irrelevant to me. Im having to filter
hundreds of messages per day and that is annyoing.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Martin van den Bemt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Forum Software.


> As far as I could follow when it was set up, people were more keen on
> the idea to get usefull threads up there (was on tomcat-dev afaik, but
> Pier should probably remember it better), so they wouldn't be lost in
> the somethimes enormous mails on the mailinglist and prevent most
> commons questions from being asked over and over again.
>
> I think that it could be usefull for that purpose anyway.
>
> Btw love mailinglists and don't do forums much.
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 01:13, Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 11:15:22PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > >
> > > We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone wants to get it up
> > > to speed... It's on nagoya.
> >
> > If you need a volunteer to maintain it, I'll be happy to do so - among
> > other things, I develop and maintain the Jive-based forums for The Sims
> > Online.  However, I'm firmly in the mailing-list camp, at least as regards
> > Apache.  I don't see any reason to "fix" what isn't broken.
> >
> > IMHO, the forums will be useful to the extent that their purpose does
> > not overlap with the mailing list and thus split the community.  What
> > purpose that leaves, I don't know.
> >
> > Jeff Schnitzer
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Re: Forum Software.

[Martin van den Bemt]

As far as I could follow when it was set up, people were more keen on
the idea to get usefull threads up there (was on tomcat-dev afaik, but
Pier should probably remember it better), so they wouldn't be lost in
the somethimes enormous mails on the mailinglist and prevent most
commons questions from being asked over and over again. 

I think that it could be usefull for that purpose anyway. 

Btw love mailinglists and don't do forums much.

Mvgr,
Martin

On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 01:13, Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 11:15:22PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > 
> > We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone wants to get it up
> > to speed... It's on nagoya.
> 
> If you need a volunteer to maintain it, I'll be happy to do so - among
> other things, I develop and maintain the Jive-based forums for The Sims
> Online.  However, I'm firmly in the mailing-list camp, at least as regards
> Apache.  I don't see any reason to "fix" what isn't broken.
> 
> IMHO, the forums will be useful to the extent that their purpose does
> not overlap with the mailing list and thus split the community.  What
> purpose that leaves, I don't know.
> 
> Jeff Schnitzer
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> --
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RE: Forum Software.

[Sale, Doug]

This should be the Jakarta tagline.

"I think use Jakarta dogmeet."

-doug ;]

> -Original Message-
> From: V. Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:17 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Forum Software.
> 
> 
> And I volunteer to write a Struts/Tomcat based one ( I have most of 
> functionality in basicPortal.com that uses a lot of jakarta project).
> 
> I think use Jakarta dogmeet.
> .V
> Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 11:15:22PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > 
> >>We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone 
> wants to get it up
> >>to speed... It's on nagoya.
> > 
> > 
> > If you need a volunteer to maintain it, I'll be happy to do 
> so - among
> > other things, I develop and maintain the Jive-based forums 
> for The Sims
> > Online.  However, I'm firmly in the mailing-list camp, at 
> least as regards
> > Apache.  I don't see any reason to "fix" what isn't broken.
> > 
> > IMHO, the forums will be useful to the extent that their 
> purpose does
> > not overlap with the mailing list and thus split the 
> community.  What
> > purpose that leaves, I don't know.
> > 
> > Jeff Schnitzer
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Forum Software.

[Santiago Gala]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

on 2003/1/22 12:28 PM, "Santiago Gala" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



1. Install spamassassin and server-side filtering (with procmail, for
instance). ;-) (It saves me between 5 and 10 spam messages a day, quite
an effort just to download and delete).



You should be so lucky to only get 5-10 a day. I get around 400.


Yes, but you are a ASF member, and your address is much bettern known 
than mine:

http://www.google.com/search?q=jon%40latchkey.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=es&btnG=B%C3%BAsqueda+en+Google&lr=

returns "approx 2930 hits", while

http://www.google.com/search?hl=es&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=sgala%40hisitech.com&btnG=B%C3%BAsqueda+en+Google&lr=

return "approx 258 hits".

This says it all ;-) (I don't even count apache.org addresses, etc.)



-jon





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Re: Forum Software.

[Martin Cooper]

On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Stephen Haberman wrote:



> Eyebrowse has made a great start of being a better mail archive
> interface, e.g. with thread support, searching, and the like, but it
> is not nor tries to be a forum-like interface.
>
> Given their existing functionality of reading in mbox or what not
> email, if you really feel passionately about this web-forum thing
> (which you must to bring up the topic again), either join the
> Eyebrowse community or start your own extension to it that
> implements a convential forum interface.

+1

My sentiments exactly.

--
Martin Cooper


>
> - Stephen
>
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RE: Forum Software.

[Martin Cooper]

On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Costin Manolache wrote:

> James Mitchell wrote:
>
>
> >> So the suggestion is:
> >>
> >> All Users lists become forums.
> >> Developer lists stay.
> >>
> >
> > I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with
> > what little persuation I can muster).  I have come to rely deeply on
> > these lists.
>
> +1

+1

Omigosh! I just agreed with Costin!

>
>
>
> > I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations,
> > etc) going over the list discussions.  I have accumulated a large amount
> > of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source
> > of knowledge transfer.
> >
> > PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS!
>
> Same here.

+1

Twice in one message! What's the world coming to?

;-)

--
Martin Cooper


>
> Costin
>
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the
> >> forums as much
> >> as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface.
> >>
> >>
> >> Hen
> >>
> >> On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >>
> >> > Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum
> >> > software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that
> >> > mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded
> >> with a ton
> >> > of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I
> >> > unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would
> >> > like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I
> >> > unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list,
> >> > the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can
> >> > pick and choose what I want to read and reply to.
> >> >
> >> > As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring
> >> mailing lists
> >> > for forum software.
> >> >
> >> > When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
> >> > developers but will often have a question or an important insight,
> >> > than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear.
> >> >
> >> > -- Robert Simmons
> >>
> >
> > --
> > James Mitchell
> > Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist
> > http://www.open-tools.org/
> >
> > "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who
> > cannot read them."
> > - Mark Twain (1835-1910)
>
>
>
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Re: Forum Software.

[V. Cekvenich]

And I volunteer to write a Struts/Tomcat based one ( I have most of 
functionality in basicPortal.com that uses a lot of jakarta project).

I think use Jakarta dogmeet.
.V
Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 11:15:22PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote:


We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone wants to get it up
to speed... It's on nagoya.



If you need a volunteer to maintain it, I'll be happy to do so - among
other things, I develop and maintain the Jive-based forums for The Sims
Online.  However, I'm firmly in the mailing-list camp, at least as regards
Apache.  I don't see any reason to "fix" what isn't broken.

IMHO, the forums will be useful to the extent that their purpose does
not overlap with the mailing list and thus split the community.  What
purpose that leaves, I don't know.

Jeff Schnitzer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Forum Software.

[Jeff Schnitzer]

On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 11:15:22PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> 
> We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone wants to get it up
> to speed... It's on nagoya.

If you need a volunteer to maintain it, I'll be happy to do so - among
other things, I develop and maintain the Jive-based forums for The Sims
Online.  However, I'm firmly in the mailing-list camp, at least as regards
Apache.  I don't see any reason to "fix" what isn't broken.

IMHO, the forums will be useful to the extent that their purpose does
not overlap with the mailing list and thus split the community.  What
purpose that leaves, I don't know.

Jeff Schnitzer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Forum Software.

[dion]

Ick,

I don't want a forum unless it also is a mailing list
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog:  http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au


Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 23/01/2003 03:41:27 AM:

> 
> So the suggestion is:
> 
> All Users lists become forums.
> Developer lists stay.
> 
> 
> Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as 
much
> as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface.
> 
> 
> Hen
> 
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
> 
> > Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum
> > software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that
> > mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton
> > of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I
> > unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would
> > like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I
> > unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list,
> > the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can
> > pick and choose what I want to read and reply to.
> >
> > As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists
> > for forum software.
> >
> > When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
> > developers but will often have a question or an important insight,
> > than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear.
> >
> > -- Robert Simmons
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
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> 

> ForwardSourceID:NT000A6782 

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Re: Forum Software.

[Pier Fumagalli]

> On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 01:08:56PM -0800, Randall J. Parr wrote:
>> 
>> It seems much of the reason people want to have forums is for the search
>> abilities. There are mail archives available but I must I agree many are
>> so limited in their search abilities and/or interface that they do not
>> help much.

We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone wants to get it up
to speed... It's on nagoya.

Pier


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Re: Forum Software.

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2003/1/22 12:28 PM, "Santiago Gala" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 1. Install spamassassin and server-side filtering (with procmail, for
> instance). ;-) (It saves me between 5 and 10 spam messages a day, quite
> an effort just to download and delete).

You should be so lucky to only get 5-10 a day. I get around 400.

-jon

-- 
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv/


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Re: Forum Software.

[Stephen Haberman]

Hi Robert,

First off, I can sympathize with your idea. Users being able to
casually drop in on a list with a minimum amount of hassle, e.g. not
subscribing for firing up a news reader, a web-based forum makes
sense.

However, as you can see, I don't think Apache will ever move away
from email lists, for all of the great reasons that have already
been posted.

So, my suggestion is that given that email lists and web forums do
the same root function (allowing people to communicate in an
asynchronous, threaded post/reply manner), why not investigate
using/building a web-based front end for the email lists?

Then all of the old-school developers/users can keep the great means
of communication that drives Apache but easily browsing/posting from
a web browse could still be available to the casual user.

Eyebrowse has made a great start of being a better mail archive
interface, e.g. with thread support, searching, and the like, but it
is not nor tries to be a forum-like interface.

Given their existing functionality of reading in mbox or what not
email, if you really feel passionately about this web-forum thing
(which you must to bring up the topic again), either join the
Eyebrowse community or start your own extension to it that
implements a convential forum interface.

- Stephen

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Re: Forum Software.

[Jeff Schnitzer]

On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 01:08:56PM -0800, Randall J. Parr wrote:
> 
> It seems much of the reason people want to have forums is for the search 
> abilities. There are mail archives available but I must I agree many are 
> so limited in their search abilities and/or interface that they do not 
> help much.

What do you find lacking from http://www.mail-archive.com?  I almost
prefer it to my mailreader.

Jeff

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Re: Forum Software.

[Randall J. Parr]

Danny Angus wrote:


So the suggestion is:

All Users lists become forums.
Developer lists stay.


Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much
as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface.
   


I think this is a terrible idea, unless... we had a mail->news gateway which would expose the lists as news groups.
 

I like the way perl.org does just this. Their lists are available as 
both mailing lists and as newsgroups.

It seems much of the reason people want to have forums is for the search 
abilities. There are mail archives available but I must I agree many are 
so limited in their search abilities and/or interface that they do not 
help much.

Maybe the following combination would keep all happy. lists + lists as 
newsgroups + really good interface/search of archives

R.Parr
Temporal Arts



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Re: Forum Software.

[Santiago Gala]

Robert Simmons wrote:

Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. 

As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. 

When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. 

-- Robert Simmons

One suggestion and one idea:


1. Install spamassassin and server-side filtering (with procmail, for 
instance). ;-) (It saves me between 5 and 10 spam messages a day, quite 
an effort just to download and delete).

2. During the ApacheCon I had an interesting discussion with Cocoon and 
Subversion people (I'm too bad to remember names, but i *do* remember 
the faces, OK? ) about a dream: A MTA that would show threads folded 
into a kind of "diffs", where each mail in a thread would be coloured in 
a different way, could be ignored, collapsed etc. Quoted parts should be 
collapsed together. I don't know if you see it, but I like it!

This would save a lot of effort I need to extract the relevant portions 
of, for instance, mee too posts, side jokes, etc in a long thread. It 
would be similar to a LXR listing (http://lxr.linux.no/) or cvs view, 
There is, in fact, whre I got the idea.

BTW, a LXR would also be handy to have for our repositories, to enable 
view of temporal evolution of code, etc.

Regards,
 Santiago


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Re: Forum Software.

[Steven Noels]

Robert Simmons wrote:


When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
developers but will often have a question or an important insight,
than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear.


Looking at http://jakarta.apache.org/mail/tomcat-user/ as an example, I 
see the gzipped archive of email communication over the past few months 
averages from 2 to 3 MB / month. That's a lot of messages, coming from a 
lot of users. On http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-user&r=1&w=2, 
this translates from 2500 to 3500 messages a month.

I don't frequest many webbased forums, but I doubt the web paradigm will 
be scalable enough to offer easy access to this amount of information.


--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org


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Re: Forum Software.

[Stéphane Mor]

On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 10:13:20AM -0800, Costin Manolache wrote:
> James Mitchell wrote:
> 
> 
> >> So the suggestion is:
> >> 
> >> All Users lists become forums.
> >> Developer lists stay.
> >> 
> > 
> > I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with
> > what little persuation I can muster).  I have come to rely deeply on
> > these lists.
> 
> +1 

+1 too.

Though, I'm not *against* forums. I simply want to keep the mailing lists and
the hours of procmail editing that gave me exactly what I needed.

If there can be a web-based and/or news stuff as well, +0, as long as the mailing lists
are still there.
> 
> 
>  
> > I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations,
> > etc) going over the list discussions.  I have accumulated a large amount
> > of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source
> > of knowledge transfer.
> > 
> > PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS!
> 
> Same here.

Both can coexist, IMO.

Stéphane

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Re: Forum Software.

[Stephane Mor]

On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 10:13:20AM -0800, Costin Manolache wrote:
> James Mitchell wrote:
> 
> 
> >> So the suggestion is:
> >> 
> >> All Users lists become forums.
> >> Developer lists stay.
> >> 
> > 
> > I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with
> > what little persuation I can muster).  I have come to rely deeply on
> > these lists.
> 
> +1 

+1 too.

Though, I'm not *against* forums, I simply want to keep the mailing lists and
the hours of procmail editing that gave me exactly what I needed/wanted.

If there can be a web-based/news stuff as well, +0, as long as the mailing lists
still exist.

> 
> 
>  
> > I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations,
> > etc) going over the list discussions.  I have accumulated a large amount
> > of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source
> > of knowledge transfer.
> > 
> > PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS!
> 
> Same here.

Both can coexist, IMHO.

Stéphane 

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Re: Forum Software.

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:

> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:52:12 +0100
> From: Robert Simmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Forum Software.
>
> Then how do you answer the following issues:
>
> 1) The vast majority of Jakarta users will not want to be inundated with
> email on a daily basis. They either wont bother to read it or will
> unsubscribe. This will ultimately cost us hundreds of potential developers
> that might have wanted to work on a part of a project but didn't know about
> the issue.
>

If users can't be bothered to figure out how to use folders and filter
rules, they are perfectly free to use the various mail archive sites to
search through the messages for previously posted information.

An alternative to folders+filters for folks who have crippled mail readers
is to subscribe in digest mode instead - that way you only get one message
per day per list.

A third alternative, as others have pointed out, is to use sites that
mirror the mailing lists as newsgroups.

> 2) The emails are intrusive and disruptive. Its as bad as getting
> advertising. You care for a while but then after a couple days of deleting
> conversations not relevant to you. Subsequently you stop answering questions
> and then you just unsubscribe. This means other users don't have the benefit
> of your expertise.
>

Forums are totally useless to me, becuase it forces me to go *ask* to
participate.  Mailing lists get fed to my machine (nicely filtered into a
folder for each list, with the default sort sequence set to threading) in
the background, and I can go scan a few messages from interesting lists
whenever I feel like it.  No mailing list message is *ever* sitting in my
INBOX, so they don't bother my normal flow.

To say nothing of the fact that, since I operate quite often from a
laptop, I can read and answer mailing list messages when I'm offline and
then send them later when I reconnect.

> 3) The lack of a complex search engine makes looking for information a hit
> and miss gesture at best. The archive search engines just aren't sufficient.
>

Search engines for forums can't do any better when the keywords you are
looking for are not present in the underlying messages.

> 4) Mailing lists exclude non-developer casual users of the software from
> being able t ask questions. If they do subscribe to one, especially for a
> popular product, they get blasted with hundreds of emails they don't care
> about. After they get their specific question answered, than they
> unsubscribe to the list. This robs the list of other qualified people to
> answer questions. Say, for example, I was an advanced Ant user and
> subscribed t the list to ask a question about writing my own tasks. Once I'm
> answered, if ever, I unsubscribe to the list. Now all the knowledge in my
> head that I could have given to another user asking a question is out of the
> community. On the other hand, if there was a forum, I could pick and choose
> what to reply and not be intrusively bothered with questions that I don't
> care about.
>

I've been a heavy participant in STRUTS-USER (2616 subscribers) and
TOMCAT-USER (2410 subscribers), the two largest user lists at Jakarta, for
many years, and have not had your experience.  Proper configuration of
your mail reader can give you the organization and sorting capabilities
that you like about forum based software, without eliminating the
advantages for people like me.

> All of this boils down to the best communication strategy for an online
> project. That would be Bugzilla + forum software.
>

Well, the mailing list volume would certainly go down by the number of
questions *I* would not be answering any more if the user lists switched
to forums.

> -- Robert
>

Craig McClanahan



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Re: Forum Software.

[James Strachan]

From: "Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I think this is a terrible idea, unless... we had a mail->news gateway
which would expose the lists as news groups.

They already are.

Point your browser/newsreader at news://news.gmane.org/

or in particular here and follow this thread in your news reader...

news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.general

James
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RE: Forum Software.

[Danny Angus]

> So the suggestion is:
> 
> All Users lists become forums.
> Developer lists stay.
> 
> 
> Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much
> as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface.

I think this is a terrible idea, unless... we had a mail->news gateway which would 
expose the lists as news groups.

I know Pier tried doing this, (and stopped because it was eating up his bandwidth??)

Most importantly if people want it there are free public mail->news gateways they can 
use right now, no set-up required by Apache.

d.



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RE: Forum Software.

[Costin Manolache]

James Mitchell wrote:


>> So the suggestion is:
>> 
>> All Users lists become forums.
>> Developer lists stay.
>> 
> 
> I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with
> what little persuation I can muster).  I have come to rely deeply on
> these lists.

+1 


 
> I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations,
> etc) going over the list discussions.  I have accumulated a large amount
> of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source
> of knowledge transfer.
> 
> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS!

Same here.

Costin



> 
>> 
>> Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the
>> forums as much
>> as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface.
>> 
>> 
>> Hen
>> 
>> On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
>> 
>> > Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum
>> > software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that
>> > mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded
>> with a ton
>> > of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I
>> > unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would
>> > like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I
>> > unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list,
>> > the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can
>> > pick and choose what I want to read and reply to.
>> >
>> > As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring
>> mailing lists
>> > for forum software.
>> >
>> > When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
>> > developers but will often have a question or an important insight,
>> > than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear.
>> >
>> > -- Robert Simmons
>> 
> 
> --
> James Mitchell
> Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist
> http://www.open-tools.org/
> 
> "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who
> cannot read them."
> - Mark Twain (1835-1910)



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RE: Forum Software.

[Tom Copeland]

> 1) The vast majority of Jakarta users will not want to be 
> inundated with
> email on a daily basis. They either wont bother to read it or will
> unsubscribe. This will ultimately cost us hundreds of 
> potential developers
> that might have wanted to work on a part of a project but 
> didn't know about
> the issue.

Right, users don't want to be inundated with email.  They don't have to
be unless they subscribe to the lists.  Even then they can have their
mail client route the email to appropriate folders for future perusal.

> 
> 2) The emails are intrusive and disruptive. Its as bad as getting
> advertising. You care for a while but then after a couple 
> days of deleting
> conversations not relevant to you. Subsequently you stop 
> answering questions
> and then you just unsubscribe. This means other users don't 
> have the benefit
> of your expertise.

I disagree - email need not be disruptive; just resist the urge to
immediately open and read every email.

> 
> 3) The lack of a complex search engine makes looking for 
> information a hit
> and miss gesture at best. The archive search engines just 
> aren't sufficient.

A good point here; perchance the search engine could be improved?  

> 
> 4) Mailing lists exclude non-developer casual users of the 
> software from
> being able t ask questions. If they do subscribe to one, 
> especially for a
> popular product, they get blasted with hundreds of emails 
> they don't care
> about. After they get their specific question answered, than they
> unsubscribe to the list. This robs the list of other 
> qualified people to
> answer questions. Say, for example, I was an advanced Ant user and
> subscribed t the list to ask a question about writing my own 
> tasks. Once I'm
> answered, if ever, I unsubscribe to the list. Now all the 
> knowledge in my
> head that I could have given to another user asking a 
> question is out of the
> community. On the other hand, if there was a forum, I could 
> pick and choose
> what to reply and not be intrusively bothered with questions 
> that I don't
> care about.

If there was indeed a forum, would non-developer casual users frequent
it?  Hard to say.  


> 
> All of this boils down to the best communication strategy for 
> an online
> project. That would be Bugzilla + forum software.


Mm, difficult to say what the "best" comms strategy is.  

I'm not dogmatically opposed to forums, but I feel the mailing lists
work pretty well. 

Yours,

tom


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RE: Forum Software.

[Patrick Ferdig]

I'm just a lurker, but: 

-1

-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons
To: Jakarta General
Sent: 1/22/2003 8:07 AM
Subject: Forum Software.

Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software
for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists
are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I
have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the
lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or
answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to
post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is
just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read
and reply to. 

As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists
for forum software. 

When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than
the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. 

-- Robert Simmons

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RE: Forum Software.

[Tom Copeland]

-1

> 
> Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of 
> forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up 
> again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. 

Are they?  I can't agree... I find them non-intrusive (my mail client
quiet files them in a folder) and non-spammy (most Jakarta lists stay
more or less on topic).

> Daily I 
> get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no 
> interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists 
> than when there is something that I would like to know about 
> or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm 
> not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the 
> communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I 
> can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. 

I find forums inconvenient compared to mailing lists - too much clicking
around is required.  And there's always the mailing list archives if you
want to dig something up from the past.  Which I almost never do.

> 
> As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring 
> mailing lists for forum software. 

-1

> 
> When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not 
> Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an 
> important insight, than the folly of communicating only in 
> mailing lists becomes clear. 

I'm not convinced that that conclusion follows from that premise.   <--
3 "that"s in one sentence!  What an accomplishment!

Yours,

Tom

> 
> -- Robert Simmons
> 


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Re: Forum Software.

[Robert Simmons]

Then how do you answer the following issues:

1) The vast majority of Jakarta users will not want to be inundated with
email on a daily basis. They either wont bother to read it or will
unsubscribe. This will ultimately cost us hundreds of potential developers
that might have wanted to work on a part of a project but didn't know about
the issue.

2) The emails are intrusive and disruptive. Its as bad as getting
advertising. You care for a while but then after a couple days of deleting
conversations not relevant to you. Subsequently you stop answering questions
and then you just unsubscribe. This means other users don't have the benefit
of your expertise.

3) The lack of a complex search engine makes looking for information a hit
and miss gesture at best. The archive search engines just aren't sufficient.

4) Mailing lists exclude non-developer casual users of the software from
being able t ask questions. If they do subscribe to one, especially for a
popular product, they get blasted with hundreds of emails they don't care
about. After they get their specific question answered, than they
unsubscribe to the list. This robs the list of other qualified people to
answer questions. Say, for example, I was an advanced Ant user and
subscribed t the list to ask a question about writing my own tasks. Once I'm
answered, if ever, I unsubscribe to the list. Now all the knowledge in my
head that I could have given to another user asking a question is out of the
community. On the other hand, if there was a forum, I could pick and choose
what to reply and not be intrusively bothered with questions that I don't
care about.

All of this boils down to the best communication strategy for an online
project. That would be Bugzilla + forum software.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "James Mitchell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Jakarta General List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: Forum Software.


> > -Original Message-
> > From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:41 AM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: Forum Software.
> >
> >
> >
> > So the suggestion is:
> >
> > All Users lists become forums.
> > Developer lists stay.
> >
>
> I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with
> what little persuation I can muster).  I have come to rely deeply on
> these lists.
>
> I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations,
> etc) going over the list discussions.  I have accumulated a large amount
> of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source
> of knowledge transfer.
>
> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS!
>
> >
> > Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the
> > forums as much
> > as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface.
> >
> >
> > Hen
> >
> > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >
> > > Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum
> > > software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that
> > > mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded
> > with a ton
> > > of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I
> > > unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would
> > > like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I
> > > unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list,
> > > the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can
> > > pick and choose what I want to read and reply to.
> > >
> > > As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring
> > mailing lists
> > > for forum software.
> > >
> > > When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
> > > developers but will often have a question or an important insight,
> > > than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear.
> > >
> > > -- Robert Simmons
> >
>
> --
> James Mitchell
> Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist
> http://www.open-tools.org/
>
> "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who
> cannot read them."
> - Mark Twain (1835-1910)
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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RE: Forum Software.

[James Mitchell]

> -Original Message-
> From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:41 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Forum Software.
> 
> 
> 
> So the suggestion is:
> 
> All Users lists become forums.
> Developer lists stay.
> 

I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with
what little persuation I can muster).  I have come to rely deeply on
these lists.  

I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations,
etc) going over the list discussions.  I have accumulated a large amount
of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source
of knowledge transfer.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS!

> 
> Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the 
> forums as much
> as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface.
> 
> 
> Hen
> 
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
> 
> > Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum
> > software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that
> > mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded 
> with a ton
> > of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I
> > unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would
> > like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I
> > unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list,
> > the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can
> > pick and choose what I want to read and reply to.
> >
> > As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring 
> mailing lists
> > for forum software.
> >
> > When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
> > developers but will often have a question or an important insight,
> > than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear.
> >
> > -- Robert Simmons
> 

--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist
http://www.open-tools.org/

"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who
cannot read them."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910)


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Re: Forum Software.

[Robert Simmons]

Most forums have "subscribe" services. However what the devs really need to
check is bug tracking more than forums. Forums are a place to discuss things
whereas bug tracking is the place to fix things. PhpBB2 has all of those
features and is free. It takes about 15 min to configure. You could even,
with a bit of work, dump all of the mailing list archives into the forum.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: Forum Software.


>
> So the suggestion is:
>
> All Users lists become forums.
> Developer lists stay.
>
>
> Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much
> as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface.
>
>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
> > Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum
> > software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that
> > mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton
> > of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I
> > unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would
> > like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I
> > unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list,
> > the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can
> > pick and choose what I want to read and reply to.
> >
> > As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists
> > for forum software.
> >
> > When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
> > developers but will often have a question or an important insight,
> > than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear.
> >
> > -- Robert Simmons
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>


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Re: Forum Software.

[Henri Yandell]

So the suggestion is:

All Users lists become forums.
Developer lists stay.


Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much
as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface.


Hen

On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:

> Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum
> software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that
> mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton
> of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I
> unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would
> like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I
> unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list,
> the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can
> pick and choose what I want to read and reply to.
>
> As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists
> for forum software.
>
> When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
> developers but will often have a question or an important insight,
> than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear.
>
> -- Robert Simmons


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Re: Forum Software.

[James Strachan]

Try gmane

http://www.gmane.org/

then you can use your favourite news reader software to browse the already
existing mail lists - it supports replies too.

James
---
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- Original Message -
From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 4:07 PM
Subject: Forum Software.


Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for
Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are
intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have
absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists
than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I
will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own
issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too
intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply
to.

As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for
forum software.

When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta
developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the
folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear.

-- Robert Simmons

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Everything you'll ever need on one web page
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Forum Software.

[Robert Simmons]

Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. 
The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. 
Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. 
However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like 
to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to 
post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too 
intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. 

As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum 
software. 

When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but 
will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating 
only in mailing lists becomes clear. 

-- Robert Simmons

Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

[V. Cekvenich]

Ah... I am sure that it is obvious, but we can write one like 
http://www.basebeans.com/do/bbRssNews, see how you can click and comment?
Done in Struts+JSTL, source code in basicPortal.sf.net. (CVS version 
uses  CommonsSQL to CRUD).

Not PHP plz in Jakrta.

.V

Henri Gomez wrote:
Brian Ewins wrote:


I'd disagree. I've yet to see a web based forum that has 
searching/threading of discussions that are as good as what a mail 
client can do, or one where I can have the entire forum offline with 
me while I read/reply at my leisure.


I've setup many forum, and my preference goes
to YABBSE (www.yabbse.org).

Another things I'd like to see on apache.org,
and something used by many jakarta developpers,
ie weblogs, and for instance MT from moveabletype.org,
(www.movabletype.org).

Should it be possible to install MT 2.51 on apache.org ?




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Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

[Henri Gomez]

Brian Ewins wrote:

I'd disagree. I've yet to see a web based forum that has 
searching/threading of discussions that are as good as what a mail 
client can do, or one where I can have the entire forum offline with me 
while I read/reply at my leisure.

I've setup many forum, and my preference goes
to YABBSE (www.yabbse.org).

Another things I'd like to see on apache.org,
and something used by many jakarta developpers,
ie weblogs, and for instance MT from moveabletype.org,
(www.movabletype.org).

Should it be possible to install MT 2.51 on apache.org ?





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Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

[James Taylor]

> Note the wiki isn't for that purpose or I'd agree with you.  Its for 
> creating documentation (something we are still lacking in).  I hate it 
> for the purpose of discussion, preferring mail lists for that, and the 
> talking points summed up (I hate searching through 6 years of archive to 

I'm a big fan of http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ThreadMode, great for distilling
discussion into document content since the refactoring is naturally
iterative.

> find out why a particular decision was made)...  Note that the wiki is 
> also not for the "pretty" stuff.  Once the wiki generates a page worth 
> formalizing, it should be dumped into XML (IMHO) for convenient transform.

Ugh, turning a succinct readable format like wiki markup into XML? What
a shame.

(insert plug for reStructuredText here)

-- jt


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Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Part of why I also hate wiki...same problem. I can have the website email me
when there is an update, but then that defeats the purpose.
 

Note the wiki isn't for that purpose or I'd agree with you.  Its for 
creating documentation (something we are still lacking in).  I hate it 
for the purpose of discussion, preferring mail lists for that, and the 
talking points summed up (I hate searching through 6 years of archive to 
find out why a particular decision was made)...  Note that the wiki is 
also not for the "pretty" stuff.  Once the wiki generates a page worth 
formalizing, it should be dumped into XML (IMHO) for convenient transform.

I find forums really inconvienient for discussion.  Heck mozilla annoys 
me enough (long story why I'm back on it)... No spell checker.  (which 
is why I misspell everything lately)

-Andy

-jon


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Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

[Kurt Schrader]

On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote:

> IRC is good for all three, but lacks another important aspect,
> persistence.

IRC Persistence:
http://irc.werken.com/channels/maven/

-Kurt


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Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2003/1/15 3:12 AM, "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mailing lists are not as good as forums for communication.
> 
> --Robert

That is your opinion. They have worked well here since 1997. I hate the idea
that I would have to go check a website to read discussions and I hate the
text input fields on web browsers as an editor.

Part of why I also hate wiki...same problem. I can have the website email me
when there is an update, but then that defeats the purpose.

-jon


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Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

[Henri Yandell]

[Someone else just emailed this, but sending to show my agreement]

There's that GMane thing that lets you view the mailing lists as a forum?

Personally I've not found any forums as easy to use as a mailing list.
Communication in a community is in three ways:

1) Multi-cast
2) Direct communication, 1 to 1
3) Specific broadcast to a select group

Mailing lists are good at 1), via a list like this, they can do 2 via
simple email and 3 via specific mailing lists. It's hard to run a thread
across them though.

A forum is worse. It can do 1 well. 3 can be done, though a bit of a pain.
2 usually relies on internal mail on the forum, or external links into
your email.

IRC is good for all three, but lacks another important aspect,
persistence. I prefer the 'mud' communication, but they're analagous to
irc I guess. IRC also lacks the concept of threading. This is descending
into my pointless opinion on communication :)

Hen



On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:

> What I meant is on the main Jakarta site. I have used Jakarta for a while
> and never even knew about that address. Probably the reason no one uses it.
> Mailing lists are not as good as forums for communication.
>
> --Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:57 AM
> Subject: Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?
>
>
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:26, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > It would seem to me that the installation of a forum on the Jakarta site
> > would dramatically improve communication and the ability of the users to
> > collaborate on using and improving Jakarta software. PhpBB, for example,
> is
> > free and can be downloaded from www.phpBB.com and offers many of the
> > features users would find helpful. I would highly suggest this move for
> the
> > Jakarta site.
>
> checkout nagoya.apache.org. It has a forum ... no one uses it ;)
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Peter Donald
> *-*
> | Contrary to popular belief, UNIX is user-friendly. It   |
> | just happens to be selective on who it makes friendship |
> | with.   |
> |   - Richard Cook|
> *-*
>
>
>
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Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

[Brian Ewins]

I'd disagree. I've yet to see a web based forum that has 
searching/threading of discussions that are as good as what a mail 
client can do, or one where I can have the entire forum offline with me 
while I read/reply at my leisure.

Since you mention a specific example, I've experienced phpBB (on the 
shatters.net forum for celestia) . Its got a very weak discussion model; 
there is one message at the 'top' of a discussion within a forum, and 
all other messages are assumed to be replies to that one. This makes it 
more difficult to follow what short messages are in reply /to/.

A further problem with forums is that they would balkanize discussion of 
projects. You end up having to read /both/ the mailing list and the 
forum to find things out. An example of something like this is the irc 
channels that the maven project uses[1] - more than once you'll see folk 
being referred from irc to the eyebrowse mail archives, or from the 
mailing list to irc, to get background on whats going on.  Web forums 
would do the same, and I can't see a single advantage of web forums 
other than getting a cartoon character at the side of your message?

If you want something more forum-y, you could try using the newsfeed 
version of the mailing lists on gmane?

Cheers,
Baz

Disclaimer - not a committer, so my opinion doesnt even matter to me ;)

[1]  I'm not arguing against IRC here. It provides real-time comms, 
while mail/news/forums allow responses to be delayed until sunup in your TZ.

Robert Simmons wrote:

What I meant is on the main Jakarta site. I have used Jakarta for a while
and never even knew about that address. Probably the reason no one uses it.
Mailing lists are not as good as forums for communication.

--Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?


On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:26, Robert Simmons wrote:
 

It would seem to me that the installation of a forum on the Jakarta site
would dramatically improve communication and the ability of the users to
collaborate on using and improving Jakarta software. PhpBB, for example,
   

is
 

free and can be downloaded from www.phpBB.com and offers many of the
features users would find helpful. I would highly suggest this move for
   

the
 

Jakarta site.
   


checkout nagoya.apache.org. It has a forum ... no one uses it ;)

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Cheers,

Peter Donald
*-*
| Contrary to popular belief, UNIX is user-friendly. It   |
| just happens to be selective on who it makes friendship |
| with.   |
|   - Richard Cook|
*-*



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Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

[Robert Simmons]

What I meant is on the main Jakarta site. I have used Jakarta for a while
and never even knew about that address. Probably the reason no one uses it.
Mailing lists are not as good as forums for communication.

--Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?


On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:26, Robert Simmons wrote:
> It would seem to me that the installation of a forum on the Jakarta site
> would dramatically improve communication and the ability of the users to
> collaborate on using and improving Jakarta software. PhpBB, for example,
is
> free and can be downloaded from www.phpBB.com and offers many of the
> features users would find helpful. I would highly suggest this move for
the
> Jakarta site.

checkout nagoya.apache.org. It has a forum ... no one uses it ;)

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Cheers,

Peter Donald
*-*
| Contrary to popular belief, UNIX is user-friendly. It   |
| just happens to be selective on who it makes friendship |
| with.   |
|   - Richard Cook|
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Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

[Peter Donald]

On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:26, Robert Simmons wrote:
> It would seem to me that the installation of a forum on the Jakarta site
> would dramatically improve communication and the ability of the users to
> collaborate on using and improving Jakarta software. PhpBB, for example, is
> free and can be downloaded from www.phpBB.com and offers many of the
> features users would find helpful. I would highly suggest this move for the
> Jakarta site.

checkout nagoya.apache.org. It has a forum ... no one uses it ;)

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Cheers,

Peter Donald
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| Contrary to popular belief, UNIX is user-friendly. It   |
| just happens to be selective on who it makes friendship |
| with.   |
|   - Richard Cook|
*-* 



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Forum Software for Jakarta?

[Robert Simmons]

It would seem to me that the installation of a forum on the Jakarta site would 
dramatically improve communication and the ability of the users to collaborate on 
using and improving Jakarta software. PhpBB, for example, is free and can be 
downloaded from www.phpBB.com and offers many of the features users would find 
helpful. I would highly suggest this move for the Jakarta site. 

-- Robert