Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 17:40 15.03.2001 -0800, Hans Bergsten wrote:
>Hans Bergsten wrote:
>> 
>> Sam Ruby wrote:
>> >
>> > Can we make this month's meeting on Friday? (Sorry Peter).  Via IRC as Jon
>> > has suggested...
>> 
>> This coming Friday, March 16? Works for me. Same for next Friday, March 23,
>> but the one after that may be tough.
>> [...]
>
>I never saw an answer to this. Did I miss it? Sam, is the meeting scheduled
>for tomorrow?

Same question here. Is it on for this evening (CET)? It turns out that I can make it 
after all. Ceki



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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Hans Bergsten]

Hans Bergsten wrote:
> 
> Sam Ruby wrote:
> >
> > Can we make this month's meeting on Friday? (Sorry Peter).  Via IRC as Jon
> > has suggested...
> 
> This coming Friday, March 16? Works for me. Same for next Friday, March 23,
> but the one after that may be tough.
> [...]

I never saw an answer to this. Did I miss it? Sam, is the meeting scheduled
for tomorrow?

Hans
-- 
Hans Bergsten   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gefion Software http://www.gefionsoftware.com
Author of JavaServer Pages (O'Reilly), http://TheJSPBook.com

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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Jon Stevens]

on 3/13/01 2:19 AM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Largely, Jon has been managing the overall Jakarta site, and I'm quite sure
> that he would eagerly welcome anybody who would like to share the burden.
> Two constraints - content should be on jakarta.apache.org, and the look and
> feel should be consistent with other Jakarta pages.
> 
> - Sam Ruby

Yup. I'm damn tired of it.

The following people currently have commit access:

avail|brian,duncan,jon,stefano,pier,costin,rubys,akv,jhunter,preston,shemnon
,shachor,arnout,bergsten,craigmcc,ed,alex,bodewig,remm,jvanzyl,gstein,nacho,
hgomez,ceki,donaldp,husted,keith,danmil,larryi,marcsaeg,fede,bburns,mstover1
,chrise,mpoeschl|jakarta-site,jakarta-site2,jakarta-site-old

If you really care about the Jakarta project, you would help out with the
management of the website.

It is funny. Have any of you noticed that the amount of misdirected email to
this list (and other lists) has gone down *significantly*???
Or that people are not posting as much crap HTML email any longer?

The reason is because I took the initiative to split the page into two and
make the first page explain in detail what list to subscribe to.

A little website change makes a HUGE difference on everyone. People don't
seem to realize that literally hundreds of thousands of people look at the
Jakarta website.

Sigh. I'm tired.

-jon


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Re: Voting processes (was: PMC meeting agenda)

[Peter Donald]

At 07:00  12/3/01 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
>The ASF board is completely re-elected on an annual basis.  Members
>nominate/Members vote.  This is probably the system I most lean towards,

me too ;)

>but it does have one problem: while it may elect the "wisest" people, it
>does not guarantee that the people elected have any familiarity with the
>issues surrounding your particular code base.

"wisest" == popular ??? ;)

>Scott Boag of Xalan fame advocates another scheme: one subproject, one
>vote.  While it certainly addresses the above issue, it raises a number of
>questions.  Is servletapi a separate subproject?  How about servletapi-4?
>How many projects is taglibs?  When avalon split, it didn't acquire any
>more code or new committers: does it suddenly deserve more representation?

Interesting approach. Each project elects a "champion" for their cause. It
is nice until we look at the "bigger" projects - I guess a good example
being tomcat. Tomcat has a lot of dedicated developers a lot of whom have
strong ideas. In these cases it may be difficult to elect one-single
champion - not sure. Then there are other projects that barely make 3
committers and are less active. Should they receive equal representation?

>The current PMC process does feel a bit "closed", but it does mimic the
>current process by which one becomes a committer or a member.  Should
>committers be re-elected?  Should developers that are not committers be
>able to nominate and elect new committers?

I kinda like the idea but it would be difficult to implement. A while back
I remember visiting a site that allowed anybody to register. Registrants
could then vote for other members. The more votes a person had the more
karma they got and the more seriously their votes were taken. You could go
to summary page that listed who voted for each person and how strongly etc.
I think this would make the appointment largely self-managing.
Unfortunately it would require work to set up such a system ;)

Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Hans Bergsten]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> 
> Can we make this month's meeting on Friday? (Sorry Peter).  Via IRC as Jon
> has suggested...

This coming Friday, March 16? Works for me. Same for next Friday, March 23,
but the one after that may be tough.

The only problem I see with this Friday is that we have not really discussed
most of the agenda items on this list yet. I suggest that Sam initiates a
thread for each item that need to be discussed.

Also, I assume the IRC connection info will be sent to all participants.

Hans
-- 
Hans Bergsten   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gefion Software http://www.gefionsoftware.com
Author of JavaServer Pages (O'Reilly), http://TheJSPBook.com

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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 12:23 13.03.2001 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
>Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>>
>> Friday is fine for me (still 20:00 GMT?)
>
>Yup.
>
>> please send the contact details privately.

Unfortunately, I might not make it this Friday. I will confirm later.

On another register, I have added a very preliminary version of a jakarta-wide 
directory structure as requested in item 3.6 of the PMC agenda. It is available at 
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/dirlayout.html. Cheers, Ceki 



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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Sam Ruby]

Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
> Friday is fine for me (still 20:00 GMT?)

Yup.

> please send the contact details privately.

Jon, can you do the honors? At a minimum, I would like the logs posted
publically after the meeting, but would really prefer that the meeting be
open to all.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Sam Ruby wrote:

> Can we make this month's meeting on Friday? (Sorry Peter).  Via IRC as Jon
> has suggested...
> 

Friday is fine for me (still 20:00 GMT?) -- please send the contact
details privately.

> 
> - Sam Ruby
>

Craig McClanahan



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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Sam Ruby]

Ted Husted wrote:
>
> Sam Ruby wrote:
> >  3.2 Sam: formalization of the subproject hierarcy.
>
> When we say hierarchy, do we mean something nested, or just
> a flat grouping?

I would be satisifed with simple assignments.

> >  3.3  Unassigned: reformat the rules for revolutionaries document
> >   from an email to a bylaw
>
> I can work on this, but am I suppose to post it at the meeting or
> beforehand if possible?

Since this item is unassigned, thanks for volunteering!  (I'm actually
surprised it wasn't assigned to James, but my minutes indicate otherwise,
and he hasn't stepped forward).

Beforehand is preferable, but given the proximity to the next meeting,
perhaps you might want to target the meeting after that.  Your call.

- Sam Ruby


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RE: PMC meeting agenda

[Ignacio J. Ortega]

Sorry if this is answered in any of the messages sended on the topic...

Will be the PMC Meeting on IRC a open meeting?

I will be glad to assist if it's open and on IRC.

TIA

Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega


> -Mensaje original-
> De: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: martes 13 de marzo de 2001 11:15
> Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Asunto: Re: PMC meeting agenda
> 
> 
> Can we make this month's meeting on Friday? (Sorry Peter).  
> Via IRC as Jon
> has suggested...
> 
> Overall, it looks like Wednesday is the best day.  So 
> presumably, the week
> before the board meeting (3rd Wednesday) would be the ideal 
> week EXCEPT -
> as I indicated, I have ONE other recurring meeting with people from
> Austrialia to Europe, guess what time/day that is?  ;-)
> 
> Unfortunatley, this Wednesday (any time) is out for me.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
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> 

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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Ted Husted]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> That's why the agenda should be posted early, and as much discussion as
> possible take place prior to the agenda.  

OK.

Sam Ruby wrote:
>3.2 Sam: formalization of the subproject hierarcy.

When we say hierarchy, do we mean something nested, or just a flat
grouping?

>3.3 Unassigned: reformat the rules for revolutionaries document from
>  an email to a bylaw

I can work on this, but am I suppose to post it at the meeting or
beforehand if possible?

> 5. Subproject status
>  Note: in the long term, the way I would like to address item 3.2 above
>  is to assign PMC representatives to monitor each subproject, and would
>  like to give each an opportunity to discuss issues, status, and
>  progress here.  What I am looking for is major events like the recent
>  Ant 1.3 release, upcoming Velocity release and outlook for releases
>  like Tomcat 4.1.  Without formal assignments, I'm simply expecting
>  everybody to bring what they know.

+1

Given the projects in my own incubator, I'd be up for JAMES, Jetspeed,
RegEx, Slide, and/or Taglibs, in addition to Struts. I'm not saying that
I'll become an active committer to all these, but these are all products
that I will need to use, and could track.

-Ted.

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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Peter Donald]

At 06:36  13/3/01 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
>It's been my experience that a recurring deadline for a status report
>can serve the same purpose of a synchronous meeting, without the 
>constraint of real-time scheduling.

Thats only the case if the purpose of the meeting is something that can be
solved with a status report. For other issues it is useful to have a
synchronous meeting. The much higher bandwidth allows decisions to be made
faster and ideas communicated more effectively (at least if everyone comes
with at least a basic overview of agenda items).

Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Sam Ruby]

Ted Husted wrote:
>
> Personally, I'm concerned about how much actual work we can
> accomplish in synchronous time. Even with verbal meetings,
> going over the ASF minutes, agenda items were often postponed
> time and again for lack of synchronous time. With the
> granularity being a month, this can be a significant delay.

That's why the agenda should be posted early, and as much discussion as
possible take place prior to the agenda.  If we "rat-hole", I will step in
and defer the discussion.

> If we don't need IRC or verbal meetings to build complex
> software products, why do we need it for the items on this
> agenda?

I'd like to give it a try.  If it doesn't help, we can discontinue.  OK?

> It's been my experience that a recurring deadline for a status
> report can serve the same purpose of a synchronous meeting,
> without the constraint of real-time scheduling.

That's why I want to crystalize this into a an official report.  Without
it, action items tend to linger...

- Sam Ruby


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Ted Husted]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> Can we make this month's meeting on Friday? (Sorry Peter). 

That would be fine.

> What I had intended by this item was a recording secretary for the purposes
> of that meeting.  If we use IRC, then this will not be required.

Personally, I'm concerned about how much actual work we can accomplish
in synchronous time. Even with verbal meetings, going over the ASF
minutes, agenda items were often postponed time and again for lack of
synchronous time. With the granularity being a month, this can be a
significant delay.

If we don't need IRC or verbal meetings to build complex software
products, why do we need it for the items on this agenda?

It's been my experience that a recurring deadline for a status report
can serve the same purpose of a synchronous meeting, without the 
constraint of real-time scheduling.

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 737-3463.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/

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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Sam Ruby]

Ted Husted wrote:
>
> > 1. Appointment of a Recording Secretary
>
> I nominate myself (unless someone else is interested).

What I had intended by this item was a recording secretary for the purposes
of that meeting.  If we use IRC, then this will not be required.

> We should also try and give a monthly "high concept" status report
> oneach project, just a sentence or two.

I'm planing to create a "monthly chairman's report" based on the input from
each subproject.  I'd like to organize the PMC meeting dates in such a way
that the information is available to the ASF board at a time convenient to
them.  The board meets on the third Wednesday of every month.

> Eventually, we might want to try and work toward something like
> Apache Week's "Under Development" section that we could post each
> month to the Announcement list.

Largely, Jon has been managing the overall Jakarta site, and I'm quite sure
that he would eagerly welcome anybody who would like to share the burden.
Two constraints - content should be on jakarta.apache.org, and the look and
feel should be consistent with other Jakarta pages.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Sam Ruby]

Can we make this month's meeting on Friday? (Sorry Peter).  Via IRC as Jon
has suggested...

Overall, it looks like Wednesday is the best day.  So presumably, the week
before the board meeting (3rd Wednesday) would be the ideal week EXCEPT -
as I indicated, I have ONE other recurring meeting with people from
Austrialia to Europe, guess what time/day that is?  ;-)

Unfortunatley, this Wednesday (any time) is out for me.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

Peter Donald wrote:
> 
> ... sucks being the only Aussie ;)

I thought there were at least several thousand of you there.  You
certainly have enough room.  I know a few that live in New York if you
are lonely.

:D

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Developing for the web?  See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/

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Re: Voting processes (was: PMC meeting agenda)

[Ted Husted]

> > 3) Committers nominate/Committers vote  (most open option)

+1

Especially if we make this active committers (wrote to a CVS in the last
six months).

Then the PMC members elect the chair, and any other offices within the
PMC.

It would be important is that anyone nominated for the PMC affirm their
nomination before a vote, since accepting the role means accepting
additional demands on your time.

Sam Ruby wrote:
> The ASF board is completely re-elected on an annual basis.  Members
> nominate/Members vote.  This is probably the system I most lean towards,
> but it does have one problem: while it may elect the "wisest" people, it
> does not guarantee that the people elected have any familiarity with the
> issues surrounding your particular code base.

I believe any Jakarta-level voting should revolve around "one committer,
one vote". 

Personally, I don't see that technical familiarity with a codebase is an
issue. The primary role of the PMC is to ensure each subproject "stays
within the bounds of the law". The technical decisions are specifically
left to the committers for each subproject, and Roy specially reiterated
that the PMC itself is not to make technical decisions. We're just the
suits ;-), and should leave the engineering to the engineers closest to 
the problem.

-Ted.

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Voting processes (was: PMC meeting agenda)

[Sam Ruby]

Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>
> I can see only 4 possibilities:
>
> 1) PMC  nominates/PMC votes (as done currently)
> 2) Committers nominate/PMC votes (seems me worst of two
>worlds)
> 3) Committers nominate/Committers vote  (most open
>option)
> 4) PMC nominates/Committers vote (sounds a bit like an
>unnamed country where a Religious Counsel of Sages
>decides if a given candidate is sufficiently loyal
>to the state religion although the Jakarta PMC does
>not decide on the fate of a whole nation)

A few more elements to make the set of possible permutations run wild...
subprojects and subscribers.  And a few sub-variations: polls cast in
public (like the recent PMC vote) or in private and tallied by a trusted
third party.

And I can argue for or against each of the systems I have seen.

The ASF board is completely re-elected on an annual basis.  Members
nominate/Members vote.  This is probably the system I most lean towards,
but it does have one problem: while it may elect the "wisest" people, it
does not guarantee that the people elected have any familiarity with the
issues surrounding your particular code base.

Scott Boag of Xalan fame advocates another scheme: one subproject, one
vote.  While it certainly addresses the above issue, it raises a number of
questions.  Is servletapi a separate subproject?  How about servletapi-4?
How many projects is taglibs?  When avalon split, it didn't acquire any
more code or new committers: does it suddenly deserve more representation?

The current PMC process does feel a bit "closed", but it does mimic the
current process by which one becomes a committer or a member.  Should
committers be re-elected?  Should developers that are not committers be
able to nominate and elect new committers?

A few things to think about...

- Sam Ruby


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Conor MacNeill]

From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> At 09:50  10/3/01 -0500, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >> Finally, we need a preferred day.  Board meetings are the third
Wednesday
> >> of every month.  I'd like to pick a schedule that allows status to be
fed
> >> into the board in a convenient manner.  I'd also suggest avoiding
Fridays
> >> as those times are actually Saturday morning in Austrailia.
> >
> >Wed/Thu/Fri 19.00 - 20.00 GMT works for me.
>
> Ouch - 5am ;) I could do that I guess - sucks being the only Aussie ;)

Just keep coding until the meeting starts... :-)


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Ted Husted]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> We also need to discuss a venue.  

I'd like to suggest that the PMC be framed more like a subproject, but 
with some regular deadlines (e.g. meetings) to keep things moving.

(1) Open a Website area for minutes, votes, status reports, the agenda,
et cetera. 

(2) Treat the agenda as our TODO list, where we can sign up for agenda 
items, and insert additional items as needed. 

(3) Require that a status report on each agenda item be submitted to the
Recording Secretary by the 20th day of each month (23:00 GMT). 

(4) The Recording Secretary shall combine the status reports into a
single document to be posted to the Web site and General list by the
25th of each month (23:00 GMT), or sooner.

(5) The result of all PMC votes shall be summarized by the individual
calling for the vote, and posted to the Web site and General list within
120 hours of calling the vote. 


> We also need to pick a time and a recurring schedule that most people can
> make.  

I can work around any time.


> 1. Appointment of a Recording Secretary

I nominate myself (unless someone else is interested).


> 5. Subproject status
>  Note: in the long term, the way I would like to address item 3.2 above
>  is to assign PMC representatives to monitor each subproject, and would
>  like to give each an opportunity to discuss issues, status, and
>  progress here.  What I am looking for is major events like the recent
>  Ant 1.3 release, upcoming Velocity release and outlook for releases
>  like Tomcat 4.1.  Without formal assignments, I'm simply expecting
>  everybody to bring what they know.

+1 

We should also try and give a monthly "high concept" status report on
each project, just a sentence or two. 

Eventually, we might want to try and work toward something like Apache
Week's "Under Development" section that we could post each month to the
Announcement list. 


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel 716 737-3463.
-- http://www.husted.com/about/commons/

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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Peter Donald]

At 09:50  10/3/01 -0500, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> Finally, we need a preferred day.  Board meetings are the third Wednesday
>> of every month.  I'd like to pick a schedule that allows status to be fed
>> into the board in a convenient manner.  I'd also suggest avoiding Fridays
>> as those times are actually Saturday morning in Austrailia.
>
>Wed/Thu/Fri 19.00 - 20.00 GMT works for me.

Ouch - 5am ;) I could do that I guess - sucks being the only Aussie ;)
Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 13:07 08.03.2001 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
>Below is the proposed agenda.  Let me know if anybody would like to propose
>any additions or changes.
>
>We also need to discuss a venue.  PMC members now span three continents, so
>monthly face to face meetings are a wee bit impractical.  I can arrange a
>diali n, but that largely isn't scalable.  Jon has suggested IRC which I'm
>favorably inclined to.  Among other things, it can facility automatic
>recording of minutes.
>
>We also need to pick a time and a recurring schedule that most people can
>make.  100% attendance of PMC members will not always be possible, but I'd
>like us to pick a time that doesn't preclude anybody from attending.
>Something like 19:00-20:00 GMT has worked for similar other meetings for
>me.  It is after working hours for the UK and Europe, and before working
>hours for Austrailia, but it gives most people an opportunity.

19:00-20:00 GMT is fine for me as are most of the other times of day.

>Finally, we need a preferred day.  Board meetings are the third Wednesday
>of every month.  I'd like to pick a schedule that allows status to be fed
>into the board in a convenient manner.  I'd also suggest avoiding Fridays
>as those times are actually Saturday morning in Austrailia.

+1

Any working day of the week is OK with me.


> = = = =
>
>1. Appointment of a Recording Secretary
>
>2. Welcoming of new members:
> Peter Donald
> Diane Holt
> Ted Husted
> Ceki Gülcü
> Geir Magnusson Jr.
> Daniel F. Savarese
> Jason van Zyl
>
>3. Old Business:
>
>   3.1 Sam: revise the scope of Jakarta
>
>   3.2 Sam: formalization of the subproject hierarcy.
>
>   3.3 Unassigned: reformat the rules for revolutionaries document from
> an email to a bylaw
>
>   3.4 James: Clarify the voting rules (specifically vetos): give some
> examples and updating the document on the web site and proposing to
> general.
>
>   3.5 James: put out a clear and separate e-mail to the tomcat mailing
> lists indicating what the criteria is for a release plan.
>
>   3.6 Unassigned: Proposal for cvs layout
>
>   3.7 James: review the bylaws.
>
>4. New Business:
>
>   4.1 Commons proposal
>
>   4.2 PMC Member election process

I intend to support any open *and* manageable voting protocol that we come up with. 
The current process is manageable but gives the impression of not being open. We are 
obviously not going to have a legislative, executive and judiciary branches for the 
Jakarta project. Similarly, there are very valid reasons for having the PMC nominate 
and vote for other PMC members. However, ideally, the Jakarta committers should 
nominate and vote for new PMC members. One possibility is to separate the nomination 
process from the voting process. The PMC reserves the right to nominate candidates but 
all the Jakarta committers vote. 

I can see only 4 possibilities:

1) PMC  nominates/PMC votes (as done currently)
2) Committers nominate/PMC votes (seems me worst of two worlds) 
3) Committers nominate/Committers vote  (most open option)
4) PMC nominates/Committers vote (sounds a bit like an unnamed country where a 
Religious Counsel of Sages decides if a given candidate is sufficiently loyal to the 
state religion although the Jakarta PMC does not decide on the fate of a whole nation)

I am OK with 1, 3 and 4. I think that 1 is OK if we explain to the Jakarta 
constituency why 1 was chosen instead of say 3 or 4. I like option 3 very much. We 
could hold annual elections for the PMC and any committer could be a candidate and the 
all Jakarta committers would vote. In a slight variation a candidate would need to be 
nominated by at least one fellow committer. 

Option 4 is like wanting a half-pregnancy. It goes a long way but not all the way.

So what is wrong with option 3? Can anyone see difficulties if we adopted it for the 
election of PMC members? Regards, Ceki
  





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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 11:44 09.03.2001 -0800, Hans Bergsten wrote:
>Sam Ruby wrote:
>> 
>> Below is the proposed agenda.  Let me know if anybody would like to propose
>> any additions or changes.
>> 
>> We also need to discuss a venue.  PMC members now span three continents, so
>> monthly face to face meetings are a wee bit impractical.  I can arrange a
>> diali n, but that largely isn't scalable.  Jon has suggested IRC which I'm
>> favorably inclined to.  Among other things, it can facility automatic
>> recording of minutes.
>
>+1
>
>> We also need to pick a time and a recurring schedule that most people can
>> make.  100% attendance of PMC members will not always be possible, but I'd
>> like us to pick a time that doesn't preclude anybody from attending.
>> Something like 19:00-20:00 GMT has worked for similar other meetings for
>> me.  It is after working hours for the UK and Europe, and before working
>> hours for Austrailia, but it gives most people an opportunity.
>
>19:00-20:00 GMT works for me.
>
>> Finally, we need a preferred day.  Board meetings are the third Wednesday
>> of every month.  I'd like to pick a schedule that allows status to be fed
>> into the board in a convenient manner.  I'd also suggest avoiding Fridays
>> as those times are actually Saturday morning in Austrailia.
>
>How about Tuesday?
>
>> 3. Old Business:
>
>Can we get some progress reports on these items before the meeting, for
>instance drafts that we can review and discuss here? This way we can
>just make them official in the meeting and don't end up finding that we
>need more time to digest the proposals, delaying the resolution even
>further.

Absolutely. I think the IRC solution might work but I expect it to be somewhat 
cumbersome. Consequently, pre-meeting preparation seems to be essential. Ceki



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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Jason van Zyl]

Sam Ruby wrote:

> Below is the proposed agenda.  Let me know if anybody would like to propose
> any additions or changes.
>
> We also need to discuss a venue.  PMC members now span three continents, so
> monthly face to face meetings are a wee bit impractical.  I can arrange a
> diali n, but that largely isn't scalable.  Jon has suggested IRC which I'm
> favorably inclined to.  Among other things, it can facility automatic
> recording of minutes.

+1

>
>
> We also need to pick a time and a recurring schedule that most people can
> make.  100% attendance of PMC members will not always be possible, but I'd
> like us to pick a time that doesn't preclude anybody from attending.
> Something like 19:00-20:00 GMT has worked for similar other meetings for
> me.  It is after working hours for the UK and Europe, and before working
> hours for Austrailia, but it gives most people an opportunity.

>
> Finally, we need a preferred day.  Board meetings are the third Wednesday
> of every month.  I'd like to pick a schedule that allows status to be fed
> into the board in a convenient manner.  I'd also suggest avoiding Fridays
> as those times are actually Saturday morning in Austrailia.

Wed/Thu/Fri 19.00 - 20.00 GMT works for me.

--
jvz.

Jason van Zyl
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine




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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Jon Stevens]

on 3/9/01 11:44 AM, "Hans Bergsten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Finally, we need a preferred day.  Board meetings are the third Wednesday
>> of every month.  I'd like to pick a schedule that allows status to be fed
>> into the board in a convenient manner.  I'd also suggest avoiding Fridays
>> as those times are actually Saturday morning in Austrailia.
> 
> How about Tuesday?

Tuesday is bad for me. Meetings. Mon/Wed/Fri is best.

-jon


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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Hans Bergsten]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> 
> Below is the proposed agenda.  Let me know if anybody would like to propose
> any additions or changes.
> 
> We also need to discuss a venue.  PMC members now span three continents, so
> monthly face to face meetings are a wee bit impractical.  I can arrange a
> diali n, but that largely isn't scalable.  Jon has suggested IRC which I'm
> favorably inclined to.  Among other things, it can facility automatic
> recording of minutes.

+1

> We also need to pick a time and a recurring schedule that most people can
> make.  100% attendance of PMC members will not always be possible, but I'd
> like us to pick a time that doesn't preclude anybody from attending.
> Something like 19:00-20:00 GMT has worked for similar other meetings for
> me.  It is after working hours for the UK and Europe, and before working
> hours for Austrailia, but it gives most people an opportunity.

19:00-20:00 GMT works for me.

> Finally, we need a preferred day.  Board meetings are the third Wednesday
> of every month.  I'd like to pick a schedule that allows status to be fed
> into the board in a convenient manner.  I'd also suggest avoiding Fridays
> as those times are actually Saturday morning in Austrailia.

How about Tuesday?

> 3. Old Business:

Can we get some progress reports on these items before the meeting, for
instance drafts that we can review and discuss here? This way we can
just make them official in the meeting and don't end up finding that we
need more time to digest the proposals, delaying the resolution even
further.

Hans
-- 
Hans Bergsten   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gefion Software http://www.gefionsoftware.com
Author of JavaServer Pages (O'Reilly), http://TheJSPBook.com

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Re: PMC meeting agenda

[Pier P. Fumagalli]

Sam Ruby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Below is the proposed agenda.  Let me know if anybody would like to propose
> any additions or changes.

When are you planning to throw it?

Pier

-- 

Pier Fumagalli    


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PMC meeting agenda

[Sam Ruby]

Below is the proposed agenda.  Let me know if anybody would like to propose
any additions or changes.

We also need to discuss a venue.  PMC members now span three continents, so
monthly face to face meetings are a wee bit impractical.  I can arrange a
diali n, but that largely isn't scalable.  Jon has suggested IRC which I'm
favorably inclined to.  Among other things, it can facility automatic
recording of minutes.

We also need to pick a time and a recurring schedule that most people can
make.  100% attendance of PMC members will not always be possible, but I'd
like us to pick a time that doesn't preclude anybody from attending.
Something like 19:00-20:00 GMT has worked for similar other meetings for
me.  It is after working hours for the UK and Europe, and before working
hours for Austrailia, but it gives most people an opportunity.

Finally, we need a preferred day.  Board meetings are the third Wednesday
of every month.  I'd like to pick a schedule that allows status to be fed
into the board in a convenient manner.  I'd also suggest avoiding Fridays
as those times are actually Saturday morning in Austrailia.

 = = = =

1. Appointment of a Recording Secretary

2. Welcoming of new members:
 Peter Donald
 Diane Holt
 Ted Husted
 Ceki Gülcü
 Geir Magnusson Jr.
 Daniel F. Savarese
 Jason van Zyl

3. Old Business:

   3.1 Sam: revise the scope of Jakarta

   3.2 Sam: formalization of the subproject hierarcy.

   3.3 Unassigned: reformat the rules for revolutionaries document from
 an email to a bylaw

   3.4 James: Clarify the voting rules (specifically vetos): give some
 examples and updating the document on the web site and proposing to
 general.

   3.5 James: put out a clear and separate e-mail to the tomcat mailing
 lists indicating what the criteria is for a release plan.

   3.6 Unassigned: Proposal for cvs layout

   3.7 James: review the bylaws.

4. New Business:

   4.1 Commons proposal

   4.2 PMC Member election process

5. Subproject status
 Note: in the long term, the way I would like to address item 3.2 above
 is to assign PMC representatives to monitor each subproject, and would
 like to give each an opportunity to discuss issues, status, and
 progress here.  What I am looking for is major events like the recent
 Ant 1.3 release, upcoming Velocity release and outlook for releases
 like Tomcat 4.1.  Without formal assignments, I'm simply expecting
 everybody to bring what they know.

6. Other changes in status of PMC members

- Sam Ruby


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