RE: PMC Nomination

[Danny Angus]

> And if that works for Italy, I
> believe it works everywhere else...

Erm, are you really suggesting that Italian politics should be the model we emulate? 

d.


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Santiago Gala]

Pier Fumagalli wrote:

On 19/2/03 23:10 "Leo Simons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I don't think anyone expects that upon becoming a PMC member one would
immediately need to gain and maintain intimate knowledge of all corners
of the jakarta codebases. It is just about humanly impossible. So it is
probably a good move to ensure the PMC is of a size where there are one
or more people who do have that intimate knowledge for each particular
corner.



If I talk to someone on the HTTPd PMC, he _knows_all_. I don't see why it
should be different for Jakarta. And if the problem is size, well, break up
the bloody thing, it was never designed to be this huge.



If I understand correctly the political trends here, promoting people to 
the Jakarta PMC is trying to get people involved, and knowing each other 
and the whole of Jakarta, so that the process of promotion of more and 
more projects to top-level does not balkanize the communities any more. 
Also, to promote wider awareness of the big community as a whole. It 
does not look like bad for me.

So, the move is in the right direction, something like making jakarta 
community grow to later split (re-organize?) it with less trauma (sp?)


My 2 pennies.


When will you, half europeans ;-) enter the euro stuff so that you can 
pay me a beer in Madrid with less transaction cost? ;-)

Two euro cents in exchange.

Santiago



Pier


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RE: PMC Nomination

[Danny Angus]

I like to totally endorse Leo's points about the Avalon PMC, My experience with James 
PMC is very, very similar.

James PMC is by and large the whole set of commiters who were active in discussions 
about the project, rather than just the code. From that POV nothing much has changed, 
we're a bit more aware of our responsibilities, but it doesn't involve a load more 
participation.

I can see that limiting the size of Jakarta PMC would compel PMC members to take a 
more active interest in parts of the project that wouldn't normally cross their paths. 
Conversely extending the PMC to include *trusted* additional members spreads the load, 
and a wide range of interests in the PMC ensure that every aspect is covered. Then 
again widening the PMC by indiscriminately including everyone may backfire if they 
can't rely on each other, so that instead of seven people sharing the load you get 22 
people all keeping their own eye on everything.

I've been nominated for the Jakarta PMC this round, and I intend to serve if elected, 
and although I'm not a commiter on any jakarta-projects any more I believe that my 
small contribution (irrespective of its quality..) will help to ensure that jakarta is 
a focused community project, and that it has ties with other projects and the wider 
Apache community.

d.



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Re: PMC Nomination

[Costin Manolache]

Pier Fumagalli wrote:

> ...
> Now, under Jakarta, there might be projects on which one might like to be
> involved and spend time on (therefore bearing the responsibilities of
> being a PMC member over _that_ particular code base),  but there might be
> project that one don't want to be even remotely associated with...
> 
> So, unless this:
> 
>> The PMC is responsible for the strategic direction and success of the
>> Jakarta Project. This governing body is expected to ensure the project's
>> welfare and guide its overall direction.
> 
> Found here 
> 
> Changes to identify that individual PMC members might have oversight only
> on a fraction (subproject) of the whole project, I would be against it.

I don't know any plan to change the charter - the PMC is and will be
responsible for the entire Jakarta Project. 
I'm also against any other fraction or fragmentation ( it seems we agree
sometimes :-).


The fact is that jakarta needs to become and act as "jakarta community" -
and everyone who preffers a different community can do that easily. Having
all people who are actively involved in jakarta subprojects participate
in the management and oversight of jakarta is the right thing to do.

We do have many different codebases and projects - but in the end they
all fit togheter pretty well, and so do the people :-)

Costin




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Re: PMC Nomination

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 20/2/03 2:34 "Conor MacNeill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> A bit like 
> saying the government is responsible for running the country. That doesn't
> mean every minister will have expertise in every portfolio

Ministers might not know the details, but know the overall direction and
actions of all the other portfolios... And if that works for Italy, I
believe it works everywhere else...

Pier (mum works down with the politics in Italy, somehow)


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Conor MacNeill]

Pier Fumagalli wrote:

On 19/2/03 21:31 "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


This is not a convincing enough argument to make me change my point of view.

Pier


Fair enough.

I think it is fair to interpret the paragraph you quoted

> The PMC is responsible for the strategic direction and success of the
> Jakarta Project. This governing body is expected to ensure the
> project's welfare and guide its overall direction.

as the PMC *collectively* not the PMC members *individually*. A bit like 
saying the government is responsible for running the country. That doesn't 
mean every minister will have expertise in every portfolio (using the 
political lingo of the country in which I reside). I know in reality that 
many ministers have no expertise at all but this is just an analogy :-)

Conor






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Re: PMC Nomination

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 19/2/03 23:00 "Leo Simons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Guess what? No need for that at all! The "additional" responsibility
> being on a PMC entails wasn't additional at all.

Avalon is ONE project... Jakarta, I can't count them with my hands AND feet.

Pier


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 19/2/03 23:10 "Leo Simons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't think anyone expects that upon becoming a PMC member one would
> immediately need to gain and maintain intimate knowledge of all corners
> of the jakarta codebases. It is just about humanly impossible. So it is
> probably a good move to ensure the PMC is of a size where there are one
> or more people who do have that intimate knowledge for each particular
> corner.

If I talk to someone on the HTTPd PMC, he _knows_all_. I don't see why it
should be different for Jakarta. And if the problem is size, well, break up
the bloody thing, it was never designed to be this huge.

My 2 pennies.

Pier


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 19/2/03 21:31 "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>> On 19/2/03 17:18 "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.
>> 
>> I think this is utterly wrong for an umbrella project like Jakarta.
> 
> Interesting.  100% of the ASF board members that I have talked to have
> given me exactly the opposite advice.
> 
> I am executing on their recommendations.

This is not a convincing enough argument to make me change my point of view.

Pier


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Sam Ruby]

Ceki Gülcü wrote:


By the way, when are the next membership nominations?


Martin Poeschl wrote:
>
> how does someone become an ASF member?
> i know, by nomination from another member .. but when does that ever
> happen??

This is scheduled to coincide with members meetings which, in turn, are 
scheduled to coincide with ApacheCons.  That's why it is very important 
for members who can't make it to ApacheCons to fill out proxy statements.

I believe I was the one who nominated the most new members at the last 
meeting.  Hopefully, more people will do the same at the next one.

- Sam Ruby





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Re: PMC Nomination

[Leo Simons]

Pier Fumagalli wrote:

So, unless this:


The PMC is responsible for the strategic direction and success of the Jakarta
Project. This governing body is expected to ensure the project's welfare and
guide its overall direction.


Changes to identify that individual PMC members might have oversight only on
a fraction (subproject) of the whole project, I would be against it.


I don't think anyone expects that upon becoming a PMC member one would 
immediately need to gain and maintain intimate knowledge of all corners 
of the jakarta codebases. It is just about humanly impossible. So it is 
probably a good move to ensure the PMC is of a size where there are one 
or more people who do have that intimate knowledge for each particular 
corner.

IOW, I do agree with your observation, but I wouldn't worry too much 
about formal documentation maybe not reflecting reality. Reality is what 
matters anyway, and what should be looked at :D

cheers & g'night!

- Leo



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Re: PMC Nomination

[Leo Simons]

Hi peeps,

I am on the avalon PMC. I was a bit scared of the idea of being a PMC 
member at first, thinking about all the additional responsibility and 
all the additional things I would need to do.

Guess what? No need for that at all! The "additional" responsibility 
being on a PMC entails wasn't additional at all. I already participated 
in voting on releases, already tried to help steer overal direction, 
already took responsiblity for the things avalon did as a group, etc etc.

The main extra task I found was getting avalon.apache.org off the ground 
and setting up the extra infrastructure, which was something I did as a 
committer; there certainly isn't much "management" involved there! And 
with new top-level projects sprouting up, the process is pretty much 
streamlining.

OTOH, the setting up of avalon as a TLP has forced us to re-think what 
avalon is about, and we're now becoming more focussed again. Most 
jakarta subprojects don't really need the extra focus, but this change 
sort of nudged _us_ in the right direction. I also think we made life 
easier for the jakarta PMC, and our project more transparant for the 
board. Finally, the somewhat mythical idea I and others had about what 
constitutes a PMC is basically gone. [EMAIL PROTECTED] has just 
about no traffic :D

I have also not found my fear that avalon would seperate too much from 
the rest of jakarta mostly unfounded. Dynamics with james and cocoon 
(not jakarta :D) are good/better than ever, lots of people and projects 
are still helping us out (like forrest, maven, ant peeps providing 
infrastructure tools and support) avalon is participating in GUMP again, 
and I find myself going out of my way more than before to ensure less 
duplication between projects, particulary wrt commons. I guess the 
broader perspective gained from thinking about the apache/jakarta 
organisation made me care more for all of its projects in the end.



So in my experience so far, being a PMC member did take some extra time 
(basically because I needed to figure out what it ment), but less and 
less as routine settles in. And it has been a really positive and 
rewarding experience; I've learned a lot about apache in the process, 
and avalon as a project is on the right track again.



The situation is probably a little different with jakarta and its PMC as 
a whole, as it consists of lots of projects and it was pretty hard to be 
on the jakarta pmc in the past (though they've been doing commendably 
well considering), because of the huge size of jakarta being distributed 
on so few shoulders. The inclusion of more committers should make life 
easier for everyone.

I'm not an active committer to any jakarta projects atm, but I would not 
hesistate to sign up for the PMC if I were. Not saying anyone should, 
just that there is no (or not much, at least) need to be scared of 
responsibilities, overhead, or time consumption.

.02 euros only,

cheers,

- Leo



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Re: PMC Nomination

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Talk less.  Nominate more.

-Andy



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Re: PMC Nomination

[Andrew C. Oliver]

One good first step in this direction would be to at least Cc: the pmc
list on all [Vote result] messages, so all pmc should be aware of
the decisions made. 

 

It is important to emphasize *result*.  Not to be discouraging but you 
could quickly overwhelm the PMC with threads of discussion from every 
jakarta project (especially commons).

-Andy



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Re: PMC Nomination

[Sam Ruby]

Pier Fumagalli wrote:

On 19/2/03 17:18 "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.


I think this is utterly wrong for an umbrella project like Jakarta. 

Interesting.  100% of the ASF board members that I have talked to have 
given me exactly the opposite advice.

I am executing on their recommendations.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 15:41 19.02.2003 -0500, you wrote:

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

Shouldn't it be that a committer has been around for a reasonable amount 
of time?  How else would they be a committer?

From the perspective of other ASF projects (e.g., HTTPD), Jakarta gives 
out committer-ship like candy.  With HTTPD, a track record of 
approximately six months of sustained patches is required to become a 
committer.

By contrast HTTPD, by Jakarta standards, gives out PMC membership and ASF 
membership like candy.

I want to strike a happy balance.  I don't necessarily want to slow down 
the rate at which people become committers.  But I would like to see 
significantly more Jakarta committers become PMC and ASF members.

+1

By the way, when are the next membership nominations?


- Sam Ruby


--
Ceki 


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Geir Magnusson Jr .]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 03:41 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:


Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

Shouldn't it be that a committer has been around for a reasonable 
amount of time?  How else would they be a committer?

From the perspective of other ASF projects (e.g., HTTPD), Jakarta 
gives out committer-ship like candy.  With HTTPD, a track record of 
approximately six months of sustained patches is required to become a 
committer.

By contrast HTTPD, by Jakarta standards, gives out PMC membership and 
ASF membership like candy.

I want to strike a happy balance.  I don't necessarily want to slow 
down the rate at which people become committers.  But I would like to 
see significantly more Jakarta committers become PMC and ASF members.

As long as there's candy :0



- Sam Ruby





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--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc.   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 19/2/03 17:18 "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeffrey Dever wrote:
>> 
>> I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members voting on releases to
>> the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the release prime for Commons
>> HttpClient where all committers vote on all issues all the time,
>> including releases.  HttpClient is somewhat unusual in commons as it is
>> rather a large project with a dedicated mailing list and a rich family
>> where many, such as myself, are primarily focused on just one project,
>> HttpClient.
> 
> The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.

I think this is utterly wrong for an umbrella project like Jakarta. Being
PMC member in my little book of horrors come with quite a little bit of
responsibilities over _ALL_ projects managed by that PMC.

Now, under Jakarta, there might be projects on which one might like to be
involved and spend time on (therefore bearing the responsibilities of being
a PMC member over _that_ particular code base),  but there might be project
that one don't want to be even remotely associated with...

So, unless this:

> The PMC is responsible for the strategic direction and success of the Jakarta
> Project. This governing body is expected to ensure the project's welfare and
> guide its overall direction.

Found here 

Changes to identify that individual PMC members might have oversight only on
a fraction (subproject) of the whole project, I would be against it.

It's just a matter of roles and _responsibilities_...

Pier


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Sam Ruby]

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:


Shouldn't it be that a committer has been around for a reasonable amount 
of time?  How else would they be a committer?

From the perspective of other ASF projects (e.g., HTTPD), Jakarta gives 
out committer-ship like candy.  With HTTPD, a track record of 
approximately six months of sustained patches is required to become a 
committer.

By contrast HTTPD, by Jakarta standards, gives out PMC membership and 
ASF membership like candy.

I want to strike a happy balance.  I don't necessarily want to slow down 
the rate at which people become committers.  But I would like to see 
significantly more Jakarta committers become PMC and ASF members.

- Sam Ruby





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Re: PMC Nomination

[Geir Magnusson Jr .]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 02:19 PM, Costin Manolache wrote:


Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:



On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 12:18 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:


Jeffrey Dever wrote:

I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members voting on releases
to the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the release prime for
Commons HttpClient where all committers vote on all issues all the
time, including releases.  HttpClient is somewhat unusual in commons
as it is rather a large project with a dedicated mailing list and a
rich family where many, such as myself, are primarily focused on 
just
one project, HttpClient.

The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.


Would it be quicker just to make all active committers PMC members by
default?


I think the goal should be that the PMC should include all committers 
that
are active and have been around for a while ( 3..6 months seems 
reasonable).

Agreed



I like the current system of proposing release managers - as it 
encourages
people to do this work. Proposing people who are taking a very active 
role
in various projects would also be good.

I don't think all active committers should be PMC members by default - 
maybe
after few months if they stick around and continue to be active.

Shouldn't it be that a committer has been around for a reasonable 
amount of time?  How else would they be a committer?

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc.   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Sam Ruby]

robert burrell donkin wrote:


actively inviting new PMC members to join is something that i think 
should be done.

in the same way that a developer receives a letter from apache (after a 
successful vote) inviting them to become a committer, i'd say that 
committers who have been voted onto the PMC should receive a letter 
explaining the role of a PMC member and asking them if they'd be willing 
to join.

What are you waiting for?

Make it so.

;-)

- Sam Ruby



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Re: PMC Nomination

[Jeffrey Dever]

Completely agree.  We should see what the new PMC roles/responsibilites 
are before accepting PMC membership.

robert burrell donkin wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2003, at 11:42 PM, Stephen Colebourne wrote:


Yesterday I received the Jakarta Monthly Newsletter. Interesting as 
always,
until I got to the section on PMC nominations. There, I suddenly 
found my
name listed as elected to the Jakarta PMC. This came as a complete 
surprise
and shock to me.

When I followed the relevant link, I discovered that a discussion had 
taken
place on this list, but I was not subscribed to general@jakarta 
(unless I'
m
mistaken, I'm not required to subscribe). At no point was a personal 
email
sent to myself (or I guess the others nominated). I feel as though I 
have
been pressganged.


actively inviting new PMC members to join is something that i think 
should be done.

in the same way that a developer receives a letter from apache (after 
a successful vote) inviting them to become a committer, i'd say that 
committers who have been voted onto the PMC should receive a letter 
explaining the role of a PMC member and asking them if they'd be 
willing to join.

- robert


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Jeffrey Dever]

It is not "to the exclusion" of active committers.

Http-client is part of jakarta-commons - and acording to the charter any
jakarta-commons committer ( which is close to all jakarta ) can vote.

As you probably know - only those who are really interested do that.

I agree that we're not yet ready to have PMC votes on releases - we need
to expand the PMC and include more people. Even when this will happen,
I think the committer votes should be counted as well.  
 

That is reassuring Costin.  To clarify HttpClient and voting, we 
absolutely *do* recognize all votes from all commons committers.  Votes 
are held on the the same list where the httpclient discussions take 
place, the commons-httpclient-dev list.


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Re: PMC Nomination

[robert burrell donkin]

On Tuesday, February 18, 2003, at 11:42 PM, Stephen Colebourne wrote:


Yesterday I received the Jakarta Monthly Newsletter. Interesting as 
always,
until I got to the section on PMC nominations. There, I suddenly found my
name listed as elected to the Jakarta PMC. This came as a complete 
surprise
and shock to me.

When I followed the relevant link, I discovered that a discussion had 
taken
place on this list, but I was not subscribed to general@jakarta (unless I'
m
mistaken, I'm not required to subscribe). At no point was a personal email
sent to myself (or I guess the others nominated). I feel as though I have
been pressganged.

actively inviting new PMC members to join is something that i think should 
be done.

in the same way that a developer receives a letter from apache (after a 
successful vote) inviting them to become a committer, i'd say that 
committers who have been voted onto the PMC should receive a letter 
explaining the role of a PMC member and asking them if they'd be willing 
to join.

- robert


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Costin Manolache]

Jeffrey Dever wrote:

> I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members voting on releases to
> the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the release prime for Commons

It is not "to the exclusion" of active committers.

Http-client is part of jakarta-commons - and acording to the charter any
jakarta-commons committer ( which is close to all jakarta ) can vote.

As you probably know - only those who are really interested do that.

I agree that we're not yet ready to have PMC votes on releases - we need
to expand the PMC and include more people. Even when this will happen,
I think the committer votes should be counted as well.  

At least for jakarta-commons - the difference will be insignifiant.



> The new group of committers has really risen up out of the ashes of the
> old HttpClient which became quite idle over the first half of last year.
>  These new committers are what makes HttpClient move forward, and I
> cringe at the thought of taking some, any,  responsibility away from
> them, away from us.

Think of this in terms of a larger "us". By beeing part of jakarta-commons,
http client is already a part of a very large "us", almost as wide as
jakarta.

In all cases - the responsibilty stays with the people who chose to be
involved. That can include jakarta PMC ( most of the pmc is already 
committer on jakarta-commons anyway - so that means absolutely no change).

As active http client committers join the PMC - they'll be able to 
assume more responsibility.

Costin


> 
> I am quite happy with how things are going right now.  Our contributor
> base continues to grow and we are back to doing releases (hurray).  We
> are using maven to build, have factored out some services into the Codec
> subproject and are looking to factor out URI into a new subproject.  We
> have over 250 Junit tests, are using commons-logging and have reached
> critical mass to support our own votes according to Jakarta guidelines.
>  Some complain at our isolation, but I see this as desirable given the
> size of the codebase and the volume of email traffic (approx 400/month).
>  Of course we have an open door policy and have good connections to
> those projects that are connected to HttpClient, such as Slide, Cactus
> and othes both inside and ourside of Apache.
> 
> There have been transitional pains, and growing pains, but all in all, I
> would say that HttpClient is a very healthy project.
> 
> To quote the quote of Sam, "Jakarta ... becoming a single community".  I
> like the sound of this, but please consider that communities are
> composed of families that a) are all members of the community, b)
> interact more frequently with their own family members than others in
> the community, c) may or may not share culture and d) a single family
> has differing relationships between families.
> 
> HttpClient has all the characteristics of a family in a community.  I
> don't want to see this relationship disrupted by taking voting power
> away from the family representitives, the committers.
> 
> I have not shown interest in the PMC up untill now, but it sounds like
> my family is at risk, and I'm concerned.  In general, I just want to
> write code and progress HttpClient (of which I don't really have time
> for even this, but I like it so much I make time).  I don't appear to
> have been nominated (or have just shown up on the list like Stephen) but
> I am eligible (committer, release prime and active for 10 months).
> 
> Should I be seeking a seat on the PMC?
> 
> Jeff (Jandalf) Dever.
> HttpClient 2.0 release prime.
> 
> 
> Conor MacNeill wrote:
> 
>> Stephen Colebourne wrote:
>>
>>> Unless I am mistaken, being a PMC member implies an overseing role
>>> for the
>>> whole of jakarta,
>>
>>
>> No, not quite, IMHO. The PMC as a *whole* has an oversight role for
>> the whole of Jakarta but individual PMC members do not need to oversee
>> all of Jakarta. In fact this is the nub of the reorg issues which have
>> been floating around. AIUI, the 7 member PMC approach was felt not to
>> be able to adequately cover all of Jakarta and the PMC must grow to
>> adequately provide oversight. Eventually most consistently active
>> committers will join the PMC. This is the httpd model, for example.
>> Sam is moving from where we have been to that point in a series of steps.
>>
>>> a requirement to follow PMC issues and votes and to be a
>>> manager. Whilst the concept of being able to push forward jakarta, JSRs,
>>> make decisions etc is appealing, I do not believe that I have the time
>>> available to do the job. Hell, I already lack the time to fully
>>> oversee the
>>> commons-lang, commons-collections and commons-clazz projects that I am
>>> involved with as I would like :-)
>>
>>
>> If you are providing oversight of these projects, even to the extent
>> you have time available, you are already filling one of the roles of a
>> PMC member. If you have acted as a release manager, then you have
>> performed a purely PMC role. All releases of Ja

Re: PMC Nomination

[Costin Manolache]

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

> 
> On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 12:18 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> 
>> Jeffrey Dever wrote:
>>> I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members voting on releases
>>> to the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the release prime for
>>> Commons HttpClient where all committers vote on all issues all the
>>> time, including releases.  HttpClient is somewhat unusual in commons
>>> as it is rather a large project with a dedicated mailing list and a
>>> rich family where many, such as myself, are primarily focused on just
>>> one project, HttpClient.
>>
>> The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.
> 
> Would it be quicker just to make all active committers PMC members by
> default?

I think the goal should be that the PMC should include all committers that
are active and have been around for a while ( 3..6 months seems reasonable).

I like the current system of proposing release managers - as it encourages
people to do this work. Proposing people who are taking a very active role
in various projects would also be good. 

I don't think all active committers should be PMC members by default - maybe
after few months if they stick around and continue to be active. 

Costin 



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Re: PMC Nomination

[Jeffrey Dever]

If the implication is that "release management =
project management", I don't agree.  Typically there
can only be one release manager, but it's takes lots
of people to keep a project going.  Certainly every
release manager should forward themselves as PMC
nominees, but the body of qualified candidates is much
larger.


Well said Morgan.  Point taken.


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Henri Yandell]

On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

>
> On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 12:18 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> > The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.
>
> Would it be quicker just to make all active committers PMC members by
> default?

If the idea is that every release-manager person is now a PMC member,
could it not be time that these people should produce a next list of
people to be PMC'd?

ie) every active committer, from their release-manager pov.

Unless there's some magic metric for 'active' which can be applied. Might
be simpler. Then a 'join mail list' email sent out, and joining the mail
list is considered as acceptance of accepting the PMC?

Hen


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- Jeffrey Dever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members
> voting on releases 
> >> to the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the
> release prime for 
> >> Commons HttpClient where all committers vote on
> all issues all the 
> >> time, including releases.  HttpClient is somewhat
> unusual in commons 
> >> as it is rather a large project with a dedicated
> mailing list and a 
> >> rich family where many, such as myself, are
> primarily focused on just 
> >> one project, HttpClient.
> >
> >
> > The goal is to make all active committers PMC
> members.
> 
> 
> Then what, exactly, is the difference between a
> committer and a PMC 
> member?  
> 
> I thought the goal was to have the release primes be
> the PMC members. 
>  It is the Project Management Committee after all.

If the implication is that "release management =
project management", I don't agree.  Typically there
can only be one release manager, but it's takes lots
of people to keep a project going.  Certainly every
release manager should forward themselves as PMC
nominees, but the body of qualified candidates is much
larger.

- Morgan

=
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog

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Re: PMC Nomination

[Geir Magnusson Jr .]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 12:18 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:


Jeffrey Dever wrote:

I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members voting on releases 
to the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the release prime for 
Commons HttpClient where all committers vote on all issues all the 
time, including releases.  HttpClient is somewhat unusual in commons 
as it is rather a large project with a dedicated mailing list and a 
rich family where many, such as myself, are primarily focused on just 
one project, HttpClient.

The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.


Would it be quicker just to make all active committers PMC members by 
default?

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc.   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Jeffrey Dever]

I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members voting on releases 
to the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the release prime for 
Commons HttpClient where all committers vote on all issues all the 
time, including releases.  HttpClient is somewhat unusual in commons 
as it is rather a large project with a dedicated mailing list and a 
rich family where many, such as myself, are primarily focused on just 
one project, HttpClient.


The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.



Then what, exactly, is the difference between a committer and a PMC 
member?  

I thought the goal was to have the release primes be the PMC members. 
It is the Project Management Committee after all.




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Re: PMC Nomination

[Sam Ruby]

Jeffrey Dever wrote:


I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members voting on releases to 
the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the release prime for Commons 
HttpClient where all committers vote on all issues all the time, 
including releases.  HttpClient is somewhat unusual in commons as it is 
rather a large project with a dedicated mailing list and a rich family 
where many, such as myself, are primarily focused on just one project, 
HttpClient.

The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.


I am quite happy with how things are going right now.  Our contributor 
base continues to grow and we are back to doing releases (hurray).  We 
are using maven to build, have factored out some services into the Codec 
subproject and are looking to factor out URI into a new subproject.  We 
have over 250 Junit tests, are using commons-logging and have reached 
critical mass to support our own votes according to Jakarta guidelines. 
Some complain at our isolation, but I see this as desirable given the 
size of the codebase and the volume of email traffic (approx 400/month). 
Of course we have an open door policy and have good connections to those 
projects that are connected to HttpClient, such as Slide, Cactus and 
othes both inside and ourside of Apache.

This works well when things go well.  When things go wrong, who is 
accountable?

To quote the quote of Sam, "Jakarta ... becoming a single community".  I 
like the sound of this, but please consider that communities are 
composed of families that a) are all members of the community, b) 
interact more frequently with their own family members than others in 
the community, c) may or may not share culture and d) a single family 
has differing relationships between families.

Different families should become different projects.  Ant, Avalon, 
Cocoon, James, WebServices, DB, ... are all examples of this happening.

HttpClient has all the characteristics of a family in a community.  I 
don't want to see this relationship disrupted by taking voting power 
away from the family representitives, the committers.

Semantics.  The PMC for a project is the ones that make release 
decisions.  Either make HttpClient a project, or have the active 
committers for the project join the PMC.

I have not shown interest in the PMC up untill now, but it sounds like 
my family is at risk, and I'm concerned.  In general, I just want to 
write code and progress HttpClient (of which I don't really have time 
for even this, but I like it so much I make time).  I don't appear to 
have been nominated (or have just shown up on the list like Stephen) but 
I am eligible (committer, release prime and active for 10 months).

Should I be seeking a seat on the PMC?

Yes.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Jeffrey Dever]

I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members voting on releases to 
the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the release prime for Commons 
HttpClient where all committers vote on all issues all the time, 
including releases.  HttpClient is somewhat unusual in commons as it is 
rather a large project with a dedicated mailing list and a rich family 
where many, such as myself, are primarily focused on just one project, 
HttpClient.

The new group of committers has really risen up out of the ashes of the 
old HttpClient which became quite idle over the first half of last year. 
These new committers are what makes HttpClient move forward, and I 
cringe at the thought of taking some, any,  responsibility away from 
them, away from us.

I am quite happy with how things are going right now.  Our contributor 
base continues to grow and we are back to doing releases (hurray).  We 
are using maven to build, have factored out some services into the Codec 
subproject and are looking to factor out URI into a new subproject.  We 
have over 250 Junit tests, are using commons-logging and have reached 
critical mass to support our own votes according to Jakarta guidelines. 
Some complain at our isolation, but I see this as desirable given the 
size of the codebase and the volume of email traffic (approx 400/month). 
Of course we have an open door policy and have good connections to 
those projects that are connected to HttpClient, such as Slide, Cactus 
and othes both inside and ourside of Apache.

There have been transitional pains, and growing pains, but all in all, I 
would say that HttpClient is a very healthy project.

To quote the quote of Sam, "Jakarta ... becoming a single community".  I 
like the sound of this, but please consider that communities are 
composed of families that a) are all members of the community, b) 
interact more frequently with their own family members than others in 
the community, c) may or may not share culture and d) a single family 
has differing relationships between families.

HttpClient has all the characteristics of a family in a community.  I 
don't want to see this relationship disrupted by taking voting power 
away from the family representitives, the committers.

I have not shown interest in the PMC up untill now, but it sounds like 
my family is at risk, and I'm concerned.  In general, I just want to 
write code and progress HttpClient (of which I don't really have time 
for even this, but I like it so much I make time).  I don't appear to 
have been nominated (or have just shown up on the list like Stephen) but 
I am eligible (committer, release prime and active for 10 months).

Should I be seeking a seat on the PMC?

Jeff (Jandalf) Dever.
HttpClient 2.0 release prime.


Conor MacNeill wrote:

Stephen Colebourne wrote:


Unless I am mistaken, being a PMC member implies an overseing role 
for the
whole of jakarta, 


No, not quite, IMHO. The PMC as a *whole* has an oversight role for 
the whole of Jakarta but individual PMC members do not need to oversee 
all of Jakarta. In fact this is the nub of the reorg issues which have 
been floating around. AIUI, the 7 member PMC approach was felt not to 
be able to adequately cover all of Jakarta and the PMC must grow to 
adequately provide oversight. Eventually most consistently active 
committers will join the PMC. This is the httpd model, for example. 
Sam is moving from where we have been to that point in a series of steps.

a requirement to follow PMC issues and votes and to be a
manager. Whilst the concept of being able to push forward jakarta, JSRs,
make decisions etc is appealing, I do not believe that I have the time
available to do the job. Hell, I already lack the time to fully 
oversee the
commons-lang, commons-collections and commons-clazz projects that I am
involved with as I would like :-)


If you are providing oversight of these projects, even to the extent 
you have time available, you are already filling one of the roles of a 
PMC member. If you have acted as a release manager, then you have 
performed a purely PMC role. All releases of Jakarta sub-projects must 
be approved by the PMC. This isn't something that has been done in 
Jakarta to date, really, but will be increasingly the case as the PMC 
expands. To quote Sam

"Longer term, the plan is to move the subprojects that chose to remain in
Jakarta towards becoming a single community - in particular release
votes will become a responsibility of the PMC.  That does not mean that
all PMC members will vote on all releases, but that it will be from this
pool of members that release votes will be cast.  Clearly there will
need to be a number waves of additions like the one above to the PMC
before we get to this point."





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Re: PMC Nomination

[Costin Manolache]

Conor MacNeill wrote:

> purely PMC role. All releases of Jakarta sub-projects must be approved by
> the PMC. This isn't something that has been done in Jakarta to date,

One good first step in this direction would be to at least Cc: the pmc
list on all [Vote result] messages, so all pmc should be aware of
the decisions made. 

I know there is no explicit rule for that - but it should be, at least
for release votes, and all "major" decisions. 

Costin




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Re: PMC Nomination

[Conor MacNeill]

Stephen Colebourne wrote:

Unless I am mistaken, being a PMC member implies an overseing role for the
whole of jakarta, 

No, not quite, IMHO. The PMC as a *whole* has an oversight role for the 
whole of Jakarta but individual PMC members do not need to oversee all of 
Jakarta. In fact this is the nub of the reorg issues which have been 
floating around. AIUI, the 7 member PMC approach was felt not to be able to 
adequately cover all of Jakarta and the PMC must grow to adequately provide 
oversight. Eventually most consistently active committers will join the PMC. 
This is the httpd model, for example. Sam is moving from where we have been 
to that point in a series of steps.

a requirement to follow PMC issues and votes and to be a
manager. Whilst the concept of being able to push forward jakarta, JSRs,
make decisions etc is appealing, I do not believe that I have the time
available to do the job. Hell, I already lack the time to fully oversee the
commons-lang, commons-collections and commons-clazz projects that I am
involved with as I would like :-)


If you are providing oversight of these projects, even to the extent you 
have time available, you are already filling one of the roles of a PMC 
member. If you have acted as a release manager, then you have performed a 
purely PMC role. All releases of Jakarta sub-projects must be approved by 
the PMC. This isn't something that has been done in Jakarta to date, really, 
but will be increasingly the case as the PMC expands. To quote Sam

"Longer term, the plan is to move the subprojects that chose to remain in
Jakarta towards becoming a single community - in particular release
votes will become a responsibility of the PMC.  That does not mean that
all PMC members will vote on all releases, but that it will be from this
pool of members that release votes will be cast.  Clearly there will
need to be a number waves of additions like the one above to the PMC
before we get to this point."



So, unless someone magically wants to convince me otherwise, I must
respectfully decline the pressgang.



Well, have I convinced you?

Conor



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RE: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[John Grove]

If I had a vote, which I do not :-)  I would vote for Craig just because of
his support for the user community, which I am one.

John Grove
-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 9:48 AM
To: Jakarta General List; Morgan Delagrange
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan




On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Morgan Delagrange wrote:

> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:16:55 -0600
> From: Morgan Delagrange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>  Morgan Delagrange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: General Jakarta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan
>
> I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.
>

I accept nomination for re-election to the PMC.

You can find out more about me on the Struts "Who We Are" page:

  http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/volunteers.html

At Apache, I got involved in the Apache JServ project before there was a
Jakarta (along with other long timers like Jon, Pier, and Stefano), and at
the ApacheCon just after the Tomcat source code was finally handed over to
Apache, told James Duncan Davidson in front of several hundred people that
the Sun code sucked ;-). (Want proof?  Just go back to the sources for
Tomcat 3.0, but don't do this on a full stomach ;-).

Over the last couple of years, I've been a big-time contributor on Tomcat
(Catalina's architecture is basically what Apache JServ 2.0 was going to
be), Struts (I'm the primary architect), and Commons.  Along the way,
I've been somewhat less involved with Taglibs and Watchdog.  I'm also a
pretty good chunk of Apache's "user support" on the TOMCAT-USER list.

I believe in Apache's goals w.r.t. open sourcing Java.  I don't have a lot
of patience for diatribes and mailing list flame fests -- they tend to be
counterproductive to these goals.  Therefore, you'll see more CVS commits
than discussion participation from me when the topic strays in those
directions.  (Interestingly, the overall level of CVS commits seems to be
inversely proportional to the vitriol in the current discussions ...)

One last note -- as most of you are probably aware, I work for Sun.  If
that fact, by itself, affects your vote, then you need to think about how
much you really believe in Apache's credo that contributors should be
judged on what they do, not who they work for.  (I'm sure you can find
plenty of other reasons not to vote for me, if that's what you want ;-).

>
> - Morgan Delagrange
>

Craig McClanahan


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RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Paulo Gaspar]

Yeahh!
Costin tends to be too quiet sometimes. I hope he is reversing that 
trend because I learn something most of the times he talks.

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Remy Maucherat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 6:07 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
> 
> 
> > After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even
> > if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or
> > any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'.
> 
> Lol. Sellout !
> You're joining the establishment now !
> ;-)
> 
> I think I'll vote for you :)
> 
> Remy
> 
> 
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Re: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange

[Morgan Delagrange]

Hi all,

Well, I shouldn't buck the trend;  here is some info about me.

I've been a Jakarta committer for approximately 13 months, 2 weeks.  I
started out on Taglibs, where I contributed a couple of taglibs to round out
the "scope" taglibs: session, application, request and application.  Soon
afterwards I donated the tag library which came to be known as "DBTags", a
tag library for basic JDBC access.  Ironically all of these tags will
probably be trumped by the "standard" tag library, which is now available as
an Early Access release.  Looks like I might need a new project!

I'm also a committer on the Commons project.  I have worked on DBCP, the
Logging component, HTTPClient, Latka (Latka is a functional testing program
with an XML interface), and the Commons charter.

Thanks for the nomination!

- Morgan


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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Remy Maucherat]

> After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even
> if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or
> any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'.

Lol. Sellout !
You're joining the establishment now !
;-)

I think I'll vote for you :)

Remy


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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ok, now that I understand better how a PMC nomination works,
it looks like I have to say something about me besides just
saying that I accept - which I do.

I work on software development for almost 15 years and I 
only started using Apache software less than 2 years ago. I
got addicted very fast.

As many of you probably noticed, I do not believe on quietly
"accepting the facts". I also believe on defending my 
interests without hurting others and I often spend "too much"
effort defending what I consider fair.

And I do it for selfish reasons - I am depending on loads of
Jakarta software and I do not believe the Jakarta Project 
will survive unless we all win something.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

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RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[GOMEZ Henri]

A big big big +1

-
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>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 7:37 AM
>To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
>
>
>After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even
>if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or
>any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'.
>
>
>My Apache background:
>
>I've used Apache, linux, java servlets since the beginning ( or close
>enough ). I've learned that code is easy to write and doesn't
>matter that much - but solving problems, learning from others and
>getting involved.
>
>I've worked on tomcat, moving code around and trying to improve
>on what other people have done. Also some of the first
>ant tasks ( including the  that everyone hates ),
>and many flame wars.
>
>Overall, the high point for me on jakarta was not seeing tomcat
>released ( and used ), but getting other people to join and
>working with  some amazing people, and seeing  code like tomcat
>or ant 'live' and evolve, regardless of the code authors beeing
>around or not. Just compare the first version of ant or tomcat3.0
>with the current versions, and compare the list of commiters then
>with today - and you'll see what I mean.
>
>
>
>Costin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Peter Donald]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:49, Bill Barker wrote:
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
>
> > After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even
> > if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or
> > any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'.
>
> If not for other reasons, for this alone, Costin has my (now ruled useless)
> +1.

Big +1 from me too. Wouldn't it be great if it was a requirement for PMC 
peeps to think this way :)


-- 
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Pete

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| Programming today is a race between software engineers  |
| striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof |
| programs,and the universe trying to produce bigger and  |
| better idiots. So far, the universe is winning. |
|   - Richard Cook|
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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Bill Barker]

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache


> After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even
> if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or
> any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'.
>
If not for other reasons, for this alone, Costin has my (now ruled useless)
+1.


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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[cmanolache]

After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even
if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or
any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'.


My Apache background:

I've used Apache, linux, java servlets since the beginning ( or close
enough ). I've learned that code is easy to write and doesn't
matter that much - but solving problems, learning from others and
getting involved.

I've worked on tomcat, moving code around and trying to improve
on what other people have done. Also some of the first
ant tasks ( including the  that everyone hates ),
and many flame wars.

Overall, the high point for me on jakarta was not seeing tomcat
released ( and used ), but getting other people to join and
working with  some amazing people, and seeing  code like tomcat
or ant 'live' and evolve, regardless of the code authors beeing
around or not. Just compare the first version of ant or tomcat3.0
with the current versions, and compare the list of commiters then
with today - and you'll see what I mean.



Costin







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RE: PMC Nomination (Bodewig and MacNeill)

[Bojan Smojver]

On Thu, 2002-02-07 at 11:50, Conor MacNeill wrote:

> I spell colour with a "u", licence with a "c" unless it is a verb and I like
> Christmas at the beach.

On ya mate!

Bojan


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RE: PMC Nomination (Bodewig and MacNeill)

[Conor MacNeill]

I accept Magesh's nomination. Thanks to Magesh and Gier for their nomination
and +1.

Background

I became involved with Apache through Tomcat in late 99, contributing some
patches, bug fixes, etc. I had some problems building Tomcat with Ant, so I
focussed on fixing it and that began a long journey of contributing to Ant,
which is where I still make most of my contributions today. I think the
concept of community in Jakarta is important and I have made some great
friends as a result, most of whom I have never actually met in person.

Outside of Apache, I have developed software professionally for 14 years
ranging from hardware design, embedded operating systems written in
assembler, telecoms network software, network management, banking systems
and most recently J2EE systems for eCommerce.

I spell colour with a "u", licence with a "c" unless it is a verb and I like
Christmas at the beach. If you want to know more, send me an email.

Geir, I'm trying to remove classpath/classloader pain from Ant but no
promises :-)

Conor






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Re: PMC Nomination - Ted Husted

[Ted Husted]

Assuming there is a sufficient number of willing candidates to fill the
seven slots, I would respectfully decline my nomination, so as to ensure
someone else the chance to serve. 

It's been my experience that the best way to build community is to not
only participate yourself, but also to give others the chance to step up
to bat, and this seems like a good opportunity to do that =:0)

In the event another person is needed to serve on the Committee to fill
the seven seats, I would be happy to volunteer again. 

-Ted.

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Re: Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[acoliver]

>On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:29:39 -0800 Micael Padraig Og mac Grene
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>McClanahan ROCKS!
>

+1

>At 12:32 PM 2/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Craig McClanahan wrote:
>> >
>> > At Apache, I got involved in the Apache JServ project before there was
a
>> > Jakarta (along with other long timers like Jon, Pier, and Stefano), and
>>at
>> > the ApacheCon just after the Tomcat source code was finally handed over
>>to
>> > Apache, told James Duncan Davidson in front of several hundred people
>>that
>> > the Sun code sucked ;-).
>>
>>I was at that ApacheCon and can corroborate that Craig did exactly that.
>>
>> > One last note -- as most of you are probably aware, I work for Sun.  If
>> > that fact, by itself, affects your vote, then you need to think about
how
>> > much you really believe in Apache's credo that contributors should be
>> > judged on what they do, not who they work for.
>>
>> 1
>>
>>- Sam Ruby
>>
>>
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Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Micael Padraig Og mac Grene]

McClanahan ROCKS!

At 12:32 PM 2/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Craig McClanahan wrote:
> >
> > At Apache, I got involved in the Apache JServ project before there was a
> > Jakarta (along with other long timers like Jon, Pier, and Stefano), and
>at
> > the ApacheCon just after the Tomcat source code was finally handed over
>to
> > Apache, told James Duncan Davidson in front of several hundred people
>that
> > the Sun code sucked ;-).
>
>I was at that ApacheCon and can corroborate that Craig did exactly that.
>
> > One last note -- as most of you are probably aware, I work for Sun.  If
> > that fact, by itself, affects your vote, then you need to think about how
> > much you really believe in Apache's credo that contributors should be
> > judged on what they do, not who they work for.
>
>+1
>
>- Sam Ruby
>
>
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Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Sam Ruby]

Craig McClanahan wrote:
>
> At Apache, I got involved in the Apache JServ project before there was a
> Jakarta (along with other long timers like Jon, Pier, and Stefano), and
at
> the ApacheCon just after the Tomcat source code was finally handed over
to
> Apache, told James Duncan Davidson in front of several hundred people
that
> the Sun code sucked ;-).

I was at that ApacheCon and can corroborate that Craig did exactly that.

> One last note -- as most of you are probably aware, I work for Sun.  If
> that fact, by itself, affects your vote, then you need to think about how
> much you really believe in Apache's credo that contributors should be
> judged on what they do, not who they work for.

+1

- Sam Ruby


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Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Morgan Delagrange wrote:

> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:16:55 -0600
> From: Morgan Delagrange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>  Morgan Delagrange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: General Jakarta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan
>
> I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.
>

I accept nomination for re-election to the PMC.

You can find out more about me on the Struts "Who We Are" page:

  http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/volunteers.html

At Apache, I got involved in the Apache JServ project before there was a
Jakarta (along with other long timers like Jon, Pier, and Stefano), and at
the ApacheCon just after the Tomcat source code was finally handed over to
Apache, told James Duncan Davidson in front of several hundred people that
the Sun code sucked ;-). (Want proof?  Just go back to the sources for
Tomcat 3.0, but don't do this on a full stomach ;-).

Over the last couple of years, I've been a big-time contributor on Tomcat
(Catalina's architecture is basically what Apache JServ 2.0 was going to
be), Struts (I'm the primary architect), and Commons.  Along the way,
I've been somewhat less involved with Taglibs and Watchdog.  I'm also a
pretty good chunk of Apache's "user support" on the TOMCAT-USER list.

I believe in Apache's goals w.r.t. open sourcing Java.  I don't have a lot
of patience for diatribes and mailing list flame fests -- they tend to be
counterproductive to these goals.  Therefore, you'll see more CVS commits
than discussion participation from me when the topic strays in those
directions.  (Interestingly, the overall level of CVS commits seems to be
inversely proportional to the vitriol in the current discussions ...)

One last note -- as most of you are probably aware, I work for Sun.  If
that fact, by itself, affects your vote, then you need to think about how
much you really believe in Apache's credo that contributors should be
judged on what they do, not who they work for.  (I'm sure you can find
plenty of other reasons not to vote for me, if that's what you want ;-).

>
> - Morgan Delagrange
>

Craig McClanahan


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Re: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange

[Ted Husted]

+1 for Morgan Delagrange

without reservation or hesitation :o)

Morgan's work in the Taglibs and Commons subprojects has been
outstanding and selfless.


"Waldhoff, Rodney" wrote:
> 
> I would like to nominate Morgan Delagrange for the PMC.  He's a founding
> member of and an active participant in jakarta-commons, is the author of
> some popular jakarta-taglibs tags, and has contributed a substantial amount
> of code, documentation and organizational support to both projects.

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Java Web Development with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[hgo]

+1 

We should call Costin Professor since he's a terrific example
of patience and excellence, a very consensual man and a real
OSS and ASF spirit defensor 


jean-frederic clere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :

> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real
> "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-*
> projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[hgomez]

+1 

We should call Costin Professor since he's a terrific example
of patience and excellence, a very consensual man and a real
OSS and ASF spirit defensor 


jean-frederic clere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :

> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real
> "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-*
> projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
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> 
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> 
> 

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RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Ignacio J. Ortega]

+1 

Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega


> -Mensaje original-
> De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]En
> nombre de jean-frederic clere
> Enviado el: lunes 4 de febrero de 2002 18:59
> Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Asunto: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a 
> real "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the 
> jakarta-tomcat-* projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Bojan Smojver]

Another legend. +1 by all means.

Bojan

On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 04:59, jean-frederic clere wrote:
> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
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Re: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange

[Morgan Delagrange]

I accept this nomination, which was originally sent to the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.  Thanks Rod!

- Original Message -
From: "Waldhoff, Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Jakarta General List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:15 AM
Subject: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange


> I would like to nominate Morgan Delagrange for the PMC.  He's a founding
> member of and an active participant in jakarta-commons, is the author of
> some popular jakarta-taglibs tags, and has contributed a substantial
amount
> of code, documentation and organizational support to both projects.
>


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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 2/4/02 12:59 PM, "jean-frederic clere"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
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+1

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert


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RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Paulo Gaspar]

I second that nomination.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of jean-frederic clere
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:59 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the 
> jakarta-tomcat-* projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
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Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Oleg V Alexeev]

Hello Morgan,

+1

Saturday, February 02, 2002, 1:16:55 AM, you wrote:

MD> I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.

MD> Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I
MD> cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments.  I can say, however,
MD> that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to Taglibs, and to
MD> numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community.

MD> - Morgan Delagrange


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Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Bojan Smojver]

The man is an absolute legend. I second that nomination!

Bojan

On Sat, 2002-02-02 at 09:16, Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.
> 
> Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I
> cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments.  I can say, however,
> that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to Taglibs, and to
> numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community.
> 
> - Morgan Delagrange
> 
> 
> _
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> 
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Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Andrew C. Oliver]

+1

On Fri, 2002-02-01 at 17:16, Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.
> 
> Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I
> cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments.  I can say, however,
> that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to Taglibs, and to
> numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community.
> 
> - Morgan Delagrange
> 
> 
> _
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> 
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RE: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Paulo Gaspar]

+1 to Craig!

> -Original Message-
> From: Morgan Delagrange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:17 PM
> To: General Jakarta
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan
>
>
> I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.
>
> Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I
> cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments.  I can
> say, however,
> that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to
> Taglibs, and to
> numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community.
>
> - Morgan Delagrange
>
>
> _
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
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Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Kathleen Zelony]

>I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.

I give this nomination a STRONG approval.

-kz
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>To: "General Jakarta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan
>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:16:55 -0600
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>
>I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.
>
>Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I
>cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments.  I can say, however,
>that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to Taglibs, and to
>numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community.
>
>- Morgan Delagrange
>
>
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Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 2/1/02 5:16 PM, "Morgan Delagrange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.
> 
> Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I
> cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments.  I can say, however,
> that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to Taglibs, and to
> numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community.
> 
> - Morgan Delagrange
> 
> 

Serious +1

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin



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RE: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Scott Sanders]

+1.  Craig is good, sometimes too good :)

Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Morgan Delagrange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:17 PM
> To: General Jakarta
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.
> 
> Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ 
> people do), so I cannot give a complete rundown of his 
> accomplishments.  I can say, however, that his excellent and 
> informed contributions to Commons, to Taglibs, and to 
> numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community.
> 
> - Morgan Delagrange
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Do You Yahoo!?
> 
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: PMC Nomination - Ted Husted

[Oleg V Alexeev]

Hello Morgan,

+1

Thursday, January 31, 2002, 8:28:03 PM, you wrote:

MD> I would like to nominate Ted Husted for re-election to the PMC.

MD> Ted has a strong (and active) committment to documentation, probably the
MD> most often neglected component of any project.  He also was a driving force
MD> in the Commons project; it's unlikely that the Commons would have been so
MD> successful in its first year if it weren't for Ted's influence.  Finally, he
MD> may have the most level head in Jakarta.  That's a big plus.

MD> - Morgan Delagrange



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Re: PMC Nomination - Ceki Gulcu

[Ceki Gülcü]

Geir, Daniel, thanks for the nomination but I have to decline. Other
commitments are taking much of my time and I could not dedicate the
required attention to PMC related matters.  Besides, one does not have
to be a PMC member to contribute effectively to Jakarta.

By the way, I like to congratulate Dirk-Willem van Gulik, Jim
Jagielski, Ben Laurie and Sam Ruby for the organization of these
elections. Well done, very professional work. Drafting such precise
election rules (in our very distributed environment) is an achievement
in itself. With hindsight, it now seems so easy.

At 19:25 31.01.2002 -0800, you wrote:
>"Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> I nominate Ceki Gulcu to be a candidate for the PMC election.
>>
>> Ceki is the force of nature behind log4j, a member of the ASF, until
>> recently a member of the PMC, and one who I find is generally clear thinking
>> and fair when it comes to open source development and community issues.
>>
>> Of course, his debates with Peter are something else entirely... :)
>
>Ceki will make an excellent PMC member, +1.

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Re: PMC Nomination - Ted Husted

[Martin Cooper]

I'll second that nomination, for all the same reasons.

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Martin Cooper


- Original Message -
From: "Morgan Delagrange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General Jakarta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:28 AM
Subject: PMC Nomination - Ted Husted


> I would like to nominate Ted Husted for re-election to the PMC.
>
> Ted has a strong (and active) committment to documentation, probably the
> most often neglected component of any project.  He also was a driving
force
> in the Commons project; it's unlikely that the Commons would have been so
> successful in its first year if it weren't for Ted's influence.  Finally,
he
> may have the most level head in Jakarta.  That's a big plus.
>
> - Morgan Delagrange
>
>
>
> _
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> --
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Re: PMC Nomination

[Daniel Rall]

Stefano Mazzocchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I would like to nominate
>
>  - Jon Stevens
>  - Sam Ruby
>
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
>
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.

+1 for both of the old dogs.

Dan

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Re: PMC Nomination - Ceki Gulcu

[Daniel Rall]

"Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I nominate Ceki Gulku to be a candidate for the PMC election.
>
> Ceki is the force of nature behind log4j, a member of the ASF, until
> recently a member of the PMC, and one who I find is generally clear thinking
> and fair when it comes to open source development and community issues.
>
> Of course, his debates with Peter are something else entirely... :)

Ceki will make an excellent PMC member, +1.

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RE: PMC Nomination

[Paulo Gaspar]

...and this for both Sam and Jon:
+1

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:28 PM
> To: Apache Jakarta
> Subject: PMC Nomination
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate
> 
>  - Jon Stevens
>  - Sam Ruby
> 
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
> 
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.
> 
> Sure, they have diametrically different styles and attitudes, but this
> the reason why I want to nominate both at the same time: they balance
> out since they listen to each other and, deep down below, they share the
> very same feelings about what apache is.
> 
> If somebody has to decide where jakarta is going, I'd like having them
> decide for me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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RE: PMC Nomination

[Paulo Gaspar]

...and this:
+1

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Bojan Smojver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:31 AM
> To: Jakarta General
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Geir Magnusson Jr. for the PMC.
> 
> Geir is current PMC member. His dedication to Jakarta projects,
> especially Velocity, is undoubted. His support levels on Velocity
> project are unsurpassed, with response times in minutes. He is always
> open to suggestions by other developers (and non-developers) and is
> willing to sacrifice a lot of his own time to improve the projects he is
> working on. His recent contribution of DVSL to Velocity only confirms
> the above.
> 
> Bojan
> 
> 
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RE: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ok, it seems that now I can do this:
+1

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 7:36 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
> 
> Who I am:
> 
> I am a developer with 10 years of experience.  I got my first taste of
> Open Source Software with JServ 0.9, and helped (albeit very little)
> with Jserv as a lurker/non-committer.  I use/have used Apache products
> everyday in my development of various projects.  My current focus is on
> building the Commons community to have a large library of reusable
> components for my own development work.  I am also working on a proposal
> for the re-birth of Alexandria, and have some thoughts on how to make
> James an 'Exchange Killer'.  I am not being paid to work at jakarta, and
> I am happy to help build the community.
> 
> What I want to accomplish:
> 
> Jon, Sam, and Stefano are my open source 'idols'.  I respect what each
> of them have done for Jakarta and Apache as a whole.  I would like to
> follow in the gigantic footsteps of Sam in helping to increase
> inter-project communication and cooperation.  This can only help to
> increase the Apache community in general, and the Jakarta community
> specifically.  I would also like to continue Sam's work in the
> cooperation with the xml.apache.org community.  Part of the community
> building is having some way of finding code within Apache.
> 
> I look forward to helping improve the jakarta community,
> Scott Sanders
> 
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Re: PMC Nomination - Jason van Zyl

[Jason van Zyl]

On 1/31/02 5:00 PM, "Kurt Schrader" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I would like to nominate Jason Van Zyl for the PMC.  Jason is a current
> PMC member, is a (very) active Turbine developer, founded the Velocity
> project, has participated in any number of Jakarta projects, and strikes
> me as an overall a great guy.  He is also the type of person that
> lets his actions (with regards to consistently supporting users while
> still outputting a massive amount of code) speak louder than his words,
> and I think that we can always use a few more people like that around here.
> 

Thanks, but I have to decline. My commitment to Tambora takes precedence so
I honestly won't have much time for Jakarta.

Geir has also agreed to take over my current cvs admin responsibilities. So
anyone who has made requests from me for cvs access can now ask Geir.

-- 

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons



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Re: PMC Nomination - Peter Donald

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/31/02 4:16 PM, "Gerhard Froehlich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> I wanna nominate Donald äääh Peter ;). Peter is a PMC member
> in the moment!
> 

I second the nomination of Peter Donald.

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Java : the speed of Smalltalk with the simple elegance of C++... 


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RE: PMC Nomination (Bodewig and MacNeill)

[Scott Sanders]

> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:00 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: PMC Nomination (Bodewig and MacNeill)
> 
> 
> On 1/31/02 4:24 PM, "Magesh Umasankar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I would like to nominate the following two
> > individuals to the PMC.
> > 
> >   - Stefan Bodewig
> >   - Conor MacNeill
> > 
> 
> I don't know Stefan at all, so I cannot in good conscience 
> second it. I am sure that someone else will.
> 
> However, I have had direct interaction with Conor, and I 
> expect he would make a great PMC member, so I second his nomination.
> 
> However, can we make it conditional that he fixes the 
> classloader in Ant 1.4.x?  ;)

Are you asking for that to be his 'platform'?

LOL

Scott

> 
> 
> -- 
> Geir Magnusson Jr. 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> System and Software Consulting
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little 
> temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - 
> Benjamin Franklin
> 
> 
> 
> --
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Re: PMC Nomination (Bodewig and MacNeill)

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/31/02 4:24 PM, "Magesh Umasankar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to nominate the following two
> individuals to the PMC.
> 
>   - Stefan Bodewig
>   - Conor MacNeill
> 

I don't know Stefan at all, so I cannot in good conscience second it. I am
sure that someone else will.

However, I have had direct interaction with Conor, and I expect he would
make a great PMC member, so I second his nomination.

However, can we make it conditional that he fixes the classloader in Ant
1.4.x?  ;)


-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin



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Re: PMC Nomination - Peter Donald

[Paul Hammant]

>
>
>That he is a good coder, we don't have to discuss, I guess!
>
Don't forget prolific!

+1

- Paul


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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Paulo Gaspar]

I accept. I want to see the end of the movie.
=;o)

And I believe I will (would) survive if the lower probability
result happens. I am already too involved anyway.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:41 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> You mean that you accept?  (You need to accept or decline)
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:01 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> > 
> > 
> > Now I am speechless!
> > (Never happened before as you well know!)
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:56 PM
> > > To: Jakarta General List
> > > Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> > >
> > >
> > > Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the code 
> > > that we have been producing.  He has experienced first hand 
> > the pains 
> > > that are inflicted on the consumers of our software when 
> > decisions are 
> > > made based on the rampant subproject rivalry that continues 
> > to exist.  
> > > Throughout it all he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
> > >
> > > Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or 
> > not, it is my 
> > > sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more 
> > directly involved 
> > > in the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.
> > >
> > > - Sam Ruby


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RE: PMC Nomination - Jason van Zyl

[Scott Sanders]

+1.

> -Original Message-
> From: Kurt Schrader [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:01 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Jason van Zyl
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to nominate Jason Van Zyl for the PMC.  Jason is 
> a current PMC member, is a (very) active Turbine developer, 
> founded the Velocity project, has participated in any number 
> of Jakarta projects, and strikes me as an overall a great 
> guy.  He is also the type of person that lets his actions 
> (with regards to consistently supporting users while still 
> outputting a massive amount of code) speak louder than his 
> words, and I think that we can always use a few more people 
> like that around here.
> 
> -Kurt
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> 
> 

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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Scott Sanders]

You mean that you accept?  (You need to accept or decline)

> -Original Message-
> From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:01 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> Now I am speechless!
> (Never happened before as you well know!)
> 
> Have fun,
> Paulo
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:56 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> >
> >
> > Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the code 
> > that we have been producing.  He has experienced first hand 
> the pains 
> > that are inflicted on the consumers of our software when 
> decisions are 
> > made based on the rampant subproject rivalry that continues 
> to exist.  
> > Throughout it all he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
> >
> > Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or 
> not, it is my 
> > sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more 
> directly involved 
> > in the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.
> >
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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> > For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
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> >
> 
> 
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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Paulo Gaspar]

Now I am speechless!
(Never happened before as you well know!)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:56 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
>
>
> Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the code that we
> have been producing.  He has experienced first hand the pains that are
> inflicted on the consumers of our software when decisions are
> made based on
> the rampant subproject rivalry that continues to exist.  Throughout it all
> he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
>
> Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or not, it is my
> sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more directly involved in
> the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> --
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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Ignacio J. Ortega]

+1

Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega


> -Mensaje original-
> De: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: jueves 31 de enero de 2002 21:56
> Para: Jakarta General List
> Asunto: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the 
> code that we
> have been producing.  He has experienced first hand the pains that are
> inflicted on the consumers of our software when decisions are 
> made based on
> the rampant subproject rivalry that continues to exist.  
> Throughout it all
> he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
> 
> Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or not, it is my
> sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more directly 
> involved in
> the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> --
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> 
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> 
> 

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Re: PMC Nomination - Peter Donald

[Magesh Umasankar]

+1

Cheers,
Magesh

***
*  Yawn: The only time some married men ever  *
*  get to open their mouth.   *
***
- Original Message -
From: "Gerhard Froehlich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:16 PM
Subject: PMC Nomination - Peter Donald


> Hi,
> I wanna nominate Donald äääh Peter ;). Peter is a PMC member
> in the moment!
>
> I'm around with him mainly in the Avalon Project. I never met him
> personally, but I believe I would like him! He is a excellent
> developer with a very broad knowledge and he has a really
> _kool_ humour. I always feel welcome in the Avalon project
> and he is one of the reasons!
>
> That he is a good coder, we don't have to discuss, I guess!
>
> Well I know, that sounds more like a declaration of love, but it
> isn't ;-)
>
>   Gerhard
>
> 
> I just found the last bug...
> 
>
>
>
> --
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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Scott Sanders]

:)  I know.  I was referring to the size of Paulo's as-of-yet
contribution to what Jakarta can become :)

Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:05 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> Scott Sanders wrote:
> >
> > HUGE +1.
> 
> I'm sorry, but just because you have been nominated to the 
> PMC doesn't mean that your vote is any bigger than anyone 
> else's around here.
> 
> :-P
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Sam Ruby]

Scott Sanders wrote:
>
> HUGE +1.

I'm sorry, but just because you have been nominated to the PMC doesn't mean
that your vote is any bigger than anyone else's around here.

:-P

- Sam Ruby


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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Scott Sanders]

HUGE +1.  He has the biggest mouth I have heard in a long time, and an
excellent outsiders viewpoint.

Scott Sanders

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:56 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the 
> code that we have been producing.  He has experienced first 
> hand the pains that are inflicted on the consumers of our 
> software when decisions are made based on the rampant 
> subproject rivalry that continues to exist.  Throughout it 
> all he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
> 
> Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or not, 
> it is my sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more 
> directly involved in the subprojects he cares about, and 
> becomes a committer.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
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RE: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Paulo Gaspar]

LOL

Sam as an ego!


Have fun,
Paulo

P.S.: I would vote on all these guys if I could.
  Scott, Sam, Stefano and Jon.


> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:49 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders
> 
> 
> Scott Sanders wrote:
> >
> > I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
> >
> > Jon, Sam, and Stefano are my open source 'idols'.
> 
> I *love* it!
> 
> A self nomination that was crafted in such a way to guarantee the 
> necessary
> "seconds".
> 
> I'll be glad to do my part:
> 
>+1
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 


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RE: PMC Nomination

[Ignacio J. Ortega]

+1

Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega


> -Mensaje original-
> De: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: jueves 31 de enero de 2002 14:28
> Para: Apache Jakarta
> Asunto: PMC Nomination
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate
> 
>  - Jon Stevens
>  - Sam Ruby
> 
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
> 
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.
> 
> Sure, they have diametrically different styles and attitudes, but this
> the reason why I want to nominate both at the same time: they balance
> out since they listen to each other and, deep down below, 
> they share the
> very same feelings about what apache is.
> 
> If somebody has to decide where jakarta is going, I'd like having them
> decide for me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Sam Ruby]

Scott Sanders wrote:
>
> I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
>
> Jon, Sam, and Stefano are my open source 'idols'.

I *love* it!

A self nomination that was crafted in such a way to guarantee the necessary
"seconds".

I'll be glad to do my part:

   +1

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Re: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[acoliver]

+1 

>On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:14:36 -0800 Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote.
>on 2002.1.31 10:36 AM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
>
> 1
>
>-jon
>
>
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Re: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002.1.31 10:36 AM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.

+1

-jon


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Andrew C. Oliver]

second.

On Thu, 2002-01-31 at 08:27, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I would like to nominate
> 
>  - Jon Stevens
>  - Sam Ruby
> 
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
> 
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.
> 
> Sure, they have diametrically different styles and attitudes, but this
> the reason why I want to nominate both at the same time: they balance
> out since they listen to each other and, deep down below, they share the
> very same feelings about what apache is.
> 
> If somebody has to decide where jakarta is going, I'd like having them
> decide for me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
> 
> 
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www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: PMC Nomination

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/31/02 8:27 AM, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to nominate
> 
> - Jon Stevens
> - Sam Ruby

I second both.  Stefano, you beat me to it.  I was putting together a longer
list :)

geir

> 
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
> 
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.
> 
> Sure, they have diametrically different styles and attitudes, but this
> the reason why I want to nominate both at the same time: they balance
> out since they listen to each other and, deep down below, they share the
> very same feelings about what apache is.
> 
> If somebody has to decide where jakarta is going, I'd like having them
> decide for me.
> 
> Thanks.

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert


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RE: PMC Nomination

[Stephane Bailliez]

> -Original Message-
> From: Conor MacNeill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> I would like to nominate Diane Holt for the PMC. Diane is a 
[..]

I second that too.

Stephane

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Re: PMC Nomination

[Stefan Bodewig]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002, Conor MacNeill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I would like to nominate Diane Holt for the PMC.

I second that.

Stefan

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Re: PMC Nomination

[Daniel Rall]

Bojan Smojver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I would like to nominate Geir Magnusson Jr. for the PMC.
>
> Geir is current PMC member. His dedication to Jakarta projects,
> especially Velocity, is undoubted. His support levels on Velocity
> project are unsurpassed, with response times in minutes. He is always
> open to suggestions by other developers (and non-developers) and is
> willing to sacrifice a lot of his own time to improve the projects he is
> working on. His recent contribution of DVSL to Velocity only confirms
> the above.

+1, Geir does outstanding work and conducts himself in a manner which
reflects well on all ASF commiters.

Dan

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Re: PMC Nomination

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002.1.30 4:31 PM, "Bojan Smojver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to nominate Geir Magnusson Jr. for the PMC.
> 
> Geir is current PMC member. His dedication to Jakarta projects,
> especially Velocity, is undoubted. His support levels on Velocity
> project are unsurpassed, with response times in minutes. He is always
> open to suggestions by other developers (and non-developers) and is
> willing to sacrifice a lot of his own time to improve the projects he is
> working on. His recent contribution of DVSL to Velocity only confirms
> the above.
> 
> Bojan

I second that nomination!

-jon


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