Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
Donnie Berkholz wrote: On 15:35 Mon 01 Dec , Joe Peterson wrote: However, what I see as perhaps a missing piece is more conceptual: the important connection between the valuable info in the emerge logs (and their somewhat transient default nature) and what a user looks for when he/she has a problem with a package. Yes, users will realize this as they use Gentoo (and will start paying more attention to logs as a result), so I don't think it's a huge problem, but what this particular user said to me made me think that there is, perhaps, an opportunity to improve the situation. Based on the rarity of me seeing this reported as a problem, I'm inclined to think it says more about this user than about our system. This could very-well be. However: I don't think it's our responsibility to put documentation everywhere someone might conceivably look for information. I agree with this statement, but I wasn't implying we should duplicate information everywhere. I wanted to explore this as an opportunity to re-think if having an official de facto spot for gentoo readmes would make sense, thereby saving log output in a useful place where users would learn to look regularly. I agree this would only be reasonable if it were the right thing, architecturally, for Gentoo, not just for this one user's issue. -Joe
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
On 15:35 Mon 01 Dec , Joe Peterson wrote: However, what I see as perhaps a missing piece is more conceptual: the important connection between the valuable info in the emerge logs (and their somewhat transient default nature) and what a user looks for when he/she has a problem with a package. Yes, users will realize this as they use Gentoo (and will start paying more attention to logs as a result), so I don't think it's a huge problem, but what this particular user said to me made me think that there is, perhaps, an opportunity to improve the situation. Based on the rarity of me seeing this reported as a problem, I'm inclined to think it says more about this user than about our system. I don't think it's our responsibility to put documentation everywhere someone might conceivably look for information. -- Thanks, Donnie Donnie Berkholz Developer, Gentoo Linux Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com pgpA5SJMEiu40.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
Summarizing from what I've read in this thread it seems you want to find a way to help user find information s/he doesn't look for. If users aren't curious about their system they will sure have a hard time figuring out how to fix it if needs be. PORTAGE_ELOG_* isn't really that hard to find in the make.conf.example (even though it's new location makes it a bit harder to find). As others have said, there are already proper systems, documentation and linking through other docs. Not finding this is what I'd call lazyness or lack of google foo. Don't misunderstand me, some stuff can get ouf of the radar of everyone, it's ok, real people are still here to point you in the right direction. If you find a better way to convey these information to the users, then please surprise me. For now I think we are in a good shape. -- Gilles Dartiguelongue [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
Gilles Dartiguelongue wrote: As others have said, there are already proper systems, documentation and linking through other docs. Not finding this is what I'd call lazyness or lack of google foo. Don't misunderstand me, some stuff can get ouf of the radar of everyone, it's ok, real people are still here to point you in the right direction. I think that I probably did not express my idea as well as I could have, since most of the responses I have gotten have echoed your thoughts that Gentoo does, indeed, have the facilities to achieve flexibility in logging, etc. I totally agree. Gentoo's capabilities, although not perfect, of course, are superlative and are a complement to its superb online doc. I think that's a big reason why we're all here - we see this and appreciate this. In fact, even when I do not include the word gentoo in a Google search, I more often than not end up at a Gentoo doc page - this is impressive. However, what I see as perhaps a missing piece is more conceptual: the important connection between the valuable info in the emerge logs (and their somewhat transient default nature) and what a user looks for when he/she has a problem with a package. Yes, users will realize this as they use Gentoo (and will start paying more attention to logs as a result), so I don't think it's a huge problem, but what this particular user said to me made me think that there is, perhaps, an opportunity to improve the situation. There is no Gentoo-specific readme facility, which could be the obvious and de facto place to go when trouble is had. I can imagine that a fairly simple and low-effort way of starting such a resource would be to simple echo the log output into a package-specific file in a known place (or put it in the portage db). The logging facilities allow similar things if configured to do it, but it is not on by default. Once users know where to go to see the instructions or notes on getting a package up and running after installation, this would become a good place to have such info or to expand on how the facility works. Starting with just the plain emerge log output would be an easy way to get benefit of such a concept has merit. And by no means would such a thing be an attempt to replace the excellent on-line docs or wiki, either - I see both as having unique strengths. For example, for detailed info on packages, the wiki/web stuff is the better resource. For a quick check of whether a revdep-rebuild might have been necessary after installing a new package would typically be in the log/notes. The notes also have the key advantage that they would *always* contain what the log output was, whereas whether a wiki or web page exists on a particular package depends on whether someone spent the time to author one. My intention with the RFC was to see if the concept has any worth and to kick it around a bit. I do not really see this as a deficiency in Gentoo's technology (which I have a feeling is how many here have interpreted it), but simply something that, if done correctly, could be useful. -Joe
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:35:32 -0700 Joe Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My intention with the RFC was to see if the concept has any worth and to kick it around a bit. I do not really see this as a deficiency in Gentoo's technology (which I have a feeling is how many here have interpreted it), but simply something that, if done correctly, could be useful. Maybe provide a real example to demonstrate the difference between the current solutions and what you're looking for, because I still don't understand what you're after (using all the different terms, logs, notes, docs, plain emerge log, ... without further explanation doesn't help much to clear things up). Marius
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:25:51 -0700 Joe Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bottom line here is that there is extremely valuable and critical info in our emerge output. In a way, these messages are like Gentoo-specific READMEs (or release notes and/or install instructions). However, it is not saved for a user to use as a resource later (well, except that it is partially saved in the master emerge.log, but that's not quite useful enough). There is no official place to go to look for Gentoo instructions; /usr/share/doc is one logical place, but it only contains files actually installed, not the notes output by emerge (and these are usually upstream-supplied, not Gentoo). I propose that, upon merging a package, we save the emerge messages in either: 1) a package-specific file that resides somewhere official or 2) in the portage DB, so that the messages can be re-read via a portage utility. In the latter case, either a new option to equery or a new q command (e.g. equery readme pkg or qreadme pkg could retrieve the text). By default, messages generated by elog, ewarn and eerror are recorded in /var/log/portage/elog/summary.log (emerge.log is just a transaction log, so best to ignore it here). einfo isn't recorded on purpose as it isn't intended for important information (that's the purpose of elog). There are some tools available to simplify reading these messages, and there several additional/alternative delivery modules available (by mail, IM or in package specific files), customizable via POTAGE_ELOG_* variables. Don't know if you just haven't been aware of this, or if you're asking for something completely different. Marius
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
Marius Mauch wrote: By default, messages generated by elog, ewarn and eerror are recorded in /var/log/portage/elog/summary.log (emerge.log is just a transaction log, so best to ignore it here). einfo isn't recorded on purpose as it isn't intended for important information (that's the purpose of elog). There are some tools available to simplify reading these messages, and there several additional/alternative delivery modules available (by mail, IM or in package specific files), customizable via POTAGE_ELOG_* variables. Don't know if you just haven't been aware of this, or if you're asking for something completely different. I'm really proposing something different - in essence, the above is to obscure to really serve as a good official kind of readme source for users. There needs to be something simple and straightforward (and well-documented) as the official thing to look at if one is having trouble with a package. In the case I mentioned all it took was for that user to see the messages, but it did not occur to him that the info would be there. I could even imagine that einfo should be included in what I am suggesting, since it may not be important for logging, but might be nice to have, nonetheless. -Joe
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
Seems that we already have everything you dreamed about: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3chap=1#doc_chap4 Take a look at PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM. It even can send that messages by mail :) HTH, -- Peter. В Вск, 30/11/2008 в 09:25 -0700, Joe Peterson пишет: Bottom line here is that there is extremely valuable and critical info in our emerge output. In a way, these messages are like Gentoo-specific READMEs (or release notes and/or install instructions). However, it is not saved for a user to use as a resource later (well, except that it is partially saved in the master emerge.log, but that's not quite useful enough). There is no official place to go to look for Gentoo instructions; /usr/share/doc is one logical place, but it only contains files actually installed, not the notes output by emerge (and these are usually upstream-supplied, not Gentoo). I propose that, upon merging a package, we save the emerge messages in either: 1) a package-specific file that resides somewhere official or 2) in the portage DB, so that the messages can be re-read via a portage utility. In the latter case, either a new option to equery or a new q command (e.g. equery readme pkg or qreadme pkg could retrieve the text). In either case, there would then be a place to go that is known and consistent (and can be documented in the Gentoo doc). It could, in essense, serve as a kind of Gentoo package README collection. I could also imagine later expanding on this by letting a given package also include more thorough README info from a file if the maintainer so desires.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
Peter Volkov wrote: Seems that we already have everything you dreamed about: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3chap=1#doc_chap4 Take a look at PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM. It even can send that messages by mail :) This is all cool, indeed! :) I suspect, however, that most users have never played with these variables. I think that saving this info in the portage db or making it more default/official in some way could be a great help. The core problem is, I think, that many users do not know where to look when having trouble, so they may not even realize that what they need is in the log info. The reason I was phrasing it more in readme terms is that most people can identify with that concept, and it could be made clear that there exists Gentoo-specific readme info that is always available (regardless of whether a user sets up the portage logging stuff). The bare log messages could exist as a minimal default for packages that do nothing special to provide more readme info. -Joe
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Joe Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Volkov wrote: Seems that we already have everything you dreamed about: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3chap=1#doc_chap4 Take a look at PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM. It even can send that messages by mail :) This is all cool, indeed! :) I suspect, however, that most users have never played with these variables. I think that saving this info in the portage db or making it more default/official in some way could be a great help. The core problem is, I think, that many users do not know where to look when having trouble, so they may not even realize that what they need is in the log info. I suspect that no one really disagrees with more communication; but I imagine many are not willing to put time into it. So I suggest you come up with better ideas to communicate to users about the existing logging solutions and then implement them ;) The gentoo homepage is one way, the GMN is another, Forums is a third. Just write one article about it and publish it everywhere. Also Gentoo-Wiki ;) -Alec The reason I was phrasing it more in readme terms is that most people can identify with that concept, and it could be made clear that there exists Gentoo-specific readme info that is always available (regardless of whether a user sets up the portage logging stuff). The bare log messages could exist as a minimal default for packages that do nothing special to provide more readme info. -Joe
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
Joe Peterson wrote: Peter Volkov wrote: Seems that we already have everything you dreamed about: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3chap=1#doc_chap4 Take a look at PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM. It even can send that messages by mail :) This is all cool, indeed! :) I suspect, however, that most users have never played with these variables. I think that saving this info in the portage db or making it more default/official in some way could be a great help. The core problem is, I think, that many users do not know where to look when having trouble, so they may not even realize that what they need is in the log info. The reason I was phrasing it more in readme terms is that most people can identify with that concept, and it could be made clear that there exists Gentoo-specific readme info that is always available (regardless of whether a user sets up the portage logging stuff). The bare log messages could exist as a minimal default for packages that do nothing special to provide more readme info. -Joe If you have a GUI on your system, give this a look: app-portage/elogviewer That should help you a lot. I been using it for a good while and it works pretty well. I do wish it had little flags in the list of packages that have been installed. Sort of a short and sweet notice there is something there without actually have to look. Maybe a red flag when there is something really serious to know and other colors for other things. Anyway, give that a look and see if that helps, if you have a GUI. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official
Joe Peterson wrote: Peter Volkov wrote: Seems that we already have everything you dreamed about: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3chap=1#doc_chap4 Take a look at PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM. It even can send that messages by mail :) This is all cool, indeed! :) I suspect, however, that most users have never played with these variables. I think that saving this info in the portage db or making it more default/official in some way could be a great help. The core problem is, I think, that many users do not know where to look when having trouble, so they may not even realize that what they need is in the log info. The info is there, but most users never read more than part 1 of the Handbook (that is, the installation part). We could, and should in my opinion, add a big fat warning towards the end of the installation part, that there is extremely useful information to be found in the other parts of the Handbook. Maybe we could especially mention some of the more useful topics, and the elog system would be one of them. -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (lxde, media, desktop-misc) Gentoo Linux Release Engineering PR liaison __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.liveforge.org/ irc://chat.freenode.net/#gentoo-media irc://irc.oftc.net/#lxde __ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
