Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
Hi, stage3 now includes non-ASCII paths, via app-misc/ca-certificates -- e.g.: /usr/share/ca-certificates/mozilla/TÜBİTAK_UEKAE_Kök_Sertifika_Hizmet_Sağlayıcısı_-_Sürüm_3.crt Working with those (e.g., backup) probably requires a UTF-8 locale. Is this considered acceptable? Did anyone notice? -- Maxim Kammerer Liberté Linux: http://dee.su/liberte
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 12/31/2012 09:14 AM, Maxim Kammerer wrote: Hi, stage3 now includes non-ASCII paths, via app-misc/ca-certificates -- e.g.: /usr/share/ca-certificates/mozilla/TÜBİTAK_UEKAE_Kök_Sertifika_Hizmet_Sağlayıcısı_-_Sürüm_3.crt Working with those (e.g., backup) probably requires a UTF-8 locale. Is this considered acceptable? Did anyone notice? It's been that way for a very long time (over a year). Since bug #382199 [1], portage uses a constant UTF-8 encoding for all installed files regardless of the locale, so at least you can count on portage handling those UTF-8 names even if you don't have a UTF-8 locale configured. [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=382199 -- Thanks, Zac
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Friday, August 03, 2012 07:16:45 AM Luca Barbato wrote: On 07/27/2012 07:24 PM, Mike Frysinger wrote: yes, and i'm waiting on the POSIX group to formalize C.UTF-8. that's the only real option in my mind for making unicode the default. any other amalgamations of various locales is ugly as sin. When they meet? I'd be fine with a pre-release =P lu 2008 TC1 is just finishing up balloting as we speak. If this isn't already in there you may be in for a long wait. Feel free to subscribe to the austin- group lists -- It's open to anyone. A calendar with the teleconference schedule is available. -- Dan Douglas signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Mike Gilbert flop...@gentoo.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò flamee...@flameeyes.eu wrote: On 01/08/2012 23:42, Fabian Groffen wrote: Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not. Tell that to the Python team I guess. My tinderbox _has_ utf8 locales available, but doesn't set in by default - Python stuff fails to build or test - not going to be fixed with change your locale reasoning. Is it mental? Yes. Would I like that to change? Yes. Do I care ẃhether that's through the use of cluebyfour on the Python team or by setting an utf-8 locale by default? Not in the least. Please apply the cluebyfour to the upstream developers of python and python modules. :-) I do try to fix unicode problems if I run into them. However, sometimes it just isn't worth the effort. Python upstream is doing what they think is best in using unicode. That said, what if we just temporarily set a locale in the ebuild for running tests and elsewhere? Is this unreasonable or impossible? It might not be a great solution, this method, since users' stuff will still break. Further, I support the use of C.UTF-8 when it is ready. It seems like the lowest common denominator to me. -- Matthew W. Summers Gentoo Foundation Inc.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:59:42 -0500 Matthew Summers quantumsumm...@gentoo.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Mike Gilbert flop...@gentoo.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò flamee...@flameeyes.eu wrote: On 01/08/2012 23:42, Fabian Groffen wrote: Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not. Tell that to the Python team I guess. My tinderbox _has_ utf8 locales available, but doesn't set in by default - Python stuff fails to build or test - not going to be fixed with change your locale reasoning. Is it mental? Yes. Would I like that to change? Yes. Do I care ẃhether that's through the use of cluebyfour on the Python team or by setting an utf-8 locale by default? Not in the least. Please apply the cluebyfour to the upstream developers of python and python modules. :-) I do try to fix unicode problems if I run into them. However, sometimes it just isn't worth the effort. Python upstream is doing what they think is best in using unicode. That said, what if we just temporarily set a locale in the ebuild for running tests and elsewhere? Is this unreasonable or impossible? It might not be a great solution, this method, since users' stuff will still break. It is impossible because you can't know which locale a particular system has available. AFAIK there's no 'it-will-always-work' choice; unless we're going to enforce generating some common locale, or do very ugly things. Further, I support the use of C.UTF-8 when it is ready. It seems like the lowest common denominator to me. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 17:47:24 +0200 Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: Python upstream is doing what they think is best in using unicode. That said, what if we just temporarily set a locale in the ebuild for running tests and elsewhere? Is this unreasonable or impossible? It might not be a great solution, this method, since users' stuff will still break. It is impossible because you can't know which locale a particular system has available. AFAIK there's no 'it-will-always-work' choice; unless we're going to enforce generating some common locale, or do very ugly things. I don't think anyone will object to enforcing a given locale to be present, even en_US.UTF-8; people will object if they have to use that locale. Maybe locale-gen can even generate it on-the-fly in $T, I don't know. A.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 03/08/2012 09:54, Alexis Ballier wrote: I don't think anyone will object to enforcing a given locale to be present, even en_US.UTF-8; people will object if they have to use that locale. Maybe locale-gen can even generate it on-the-fly in $T, I don't know. Agreed. And there _is_ a way to tell which locales are available: `locale -a`. -- Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes flamee...@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 01-08-2012 21:00:23 -0400, Mike Gilbert wrote: Diego mentioned the python issue. Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not. There is a difference between there is a UTF-8 locale available on the system and en_US.UTF-8 locale is in effect. Fabian -- Fabian Groffen Gentoo on a different level signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Thu, 2012-08-02 at 08:42 +0200, Fabian Groffen wrote: On 01-08-2012 21:00:23 -0400, Mike Gilbert wrote: Diego mentioned the python issue. Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not. Yes. -- Stelian Ionescu a.k.a. fe[nl]ix Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 01/08/2012 23:42, Fabian Groffen wrote: Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not. Tell that to the Python team I guess. My tinderbox _has_ utf8 locales available, but doesn't set in by default - Python stuff fails to build or test - not going to be fixed with change your locale reasoning. Is it mental? Yes. Would I like that to change? Yes. Do I care ẃhether that's through the use of cluebyfour on the Python team or by setting an utf-8 locale by default? Not in the least. -- Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes flamee...@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò flamee...@flameeyes.eu wrote: On 01/08/2012 23:42, Fabian Groffen wrote: Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not. Tell that to the Python team I guess. My tinderbox _has_ utf8 locales available, but doesn't set in by default - Python stuff fails to build or test - not going to be fixed with change your locale reasoning. Is it mental? Yes. Would I like that to change? Yes. Do I care ẃhether that's through the use of cluebyfour on the Python team or by setting an utf-8 locale by default? Not in the least. Please apply the cluebyfour to the upstream developers of python and python modules. :-) I do try to fix unicode problems if I run into them. However, sometimes it just isn't worth the effort.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 11:21:40 -0700 Diego Elio Pettenò flamee...@flameeyes.eu wrote: On 01/08/2012 23:42, Fabian Groffen wrote: Honestly, if some asian person has whatever charset that I often find in spam messages, but is not UTF-8, are you then going to tell that person to switch to UTF-8 to get those python packages emerged? I hope not. Tell that to the Python team I guess. My tinderbox _has_ utf8 locales available, but doesn't set in by default - Python stuff fails to build or test - not going to be fixed with change your locale reasoning. not that it is hard to set LC_ALL=sth before running the failing command, or make the pm do it... we already fix regexp bugs with other locales (or workaround them by setting LC_ALL=C), it falls under the same category. you just need to teach people, and maybe mandate an utf8 locale to be present; the same way they do not consider estonian alphabet ordering 'broken' they would not consider not having an utf8 locale 'broken', esp. when said utf8 is far from being optimal in terms of size for asian languages. A.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 31 July 2012 05:33, Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 07/30/12 12:28, Michał Górny wrote: My point here is that you want the thing to change. So you first try to convince people here to change. We practically did a small survey here and in the result we didn't agree on doing the change. So you're saying we should do another survey on another group, hoping that this time the result will be on your side. We didn't do a survey, we asked, Is there a reason for not using at least en_US.UTF-8 as a sane default value? Unsurprisingly, the responses contained reasons for not using en_US.UTF-8 as the default. I think its a shame that : 1. the current handbook way to change timezone is manually editing a file. 2. the handbook doesn't mention `eselect locale` 3. `eselect locale list` is useless if you have *all* locales available to you. 4. `eselect locale` can only set the LANG variable. 5. that eselect doesn't have an interactive mode yet. Why? because this problem could be made simpler by providing a way to use a recommended locale for your timezone, which is likely to yield a more sane default for that timezone. It would also make it easier to validate the value the user chooses for their Timezone value. Consider: eselect timezone list # all level 1 timezones + groups , ie: like ls /usr/share/zoneinfo eselect timezone list America/ # contents of /usr/share/zoneinfo/America eselect timezone set America/Chicago # /etc/timezone is updated to 'America/Chicago' # /etc/localtime is replaced with /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/Chicago eselect locale set --all auto # LANG and LC_* are set using the values defined as default for America/Chicago eselect locale set --ctype auto # Only LC_CTYPE is autopopulated. eselect locale list # 600 items because you have a vanilla locale.defs eselect locale list --timezone # shows a list of LOCALE values for the current TZ, with the one that would be used as default first/marked up differently eselect locale list en # shows english locale options eselect locale set --ctype en_US.utf8 The benefits of setting these locales this way are obvious to me at least, you can set locales to a value that is sensible automatically. You also can validate a users choice of locale and provide feedback, such as, you can list non-installed locales, and then tell the user if thy try to use a locale that isn't installed yet they need to update locales.def The only way I can suggest something better, would be an interactive locale setter, something like 'tzselect' , except sets timezone *and* locale information, with the ability to automatically update locales.def and add new locale definitions and regenerate the locale database. This way, you could have a selection process more like this: https://gist.github.com/3240866 #? 1 The following information has been given: United States Eastern Time Therefore TZ='America/New_York' will be used. Local time is now: Thu Aug 2 17:33:17 EDT 2012. Universal Time is now: Thu Aug 2 21:33:17 UTC 2012. Is the above information OK? 1) Yes 2) No #? 1 Your Current locale settings are: LANG=POSIX The recommended settings for your locale are : LANG=en_US.utf8 LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 Do you wish to change your locale settings at this time? 1) No 2) Yes - Use recommended settings 3) Yes - Configure locale interactively. At least this way, the effort required to configure your system into a very good logical UTF8 default is trivial. -- Kent perl -e print substr( \edrgmaM SPA NOcomil.ic\\@tfrken\, \$_ * 3, 3 ) for ( 9,8,0,7,1,6,5,4,3,2 ); http://kent-fredric.fox.geek.nz
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 07/27/2012 07:24 PM, Mike Frysinger wrote: yes, and i'm waiting on the POSIX group to formalize C.UTF-8. that's the only real option in my mind for making unicode the default. any other amalgamations of various locales is ugly as sin. When they meet? I'd be fine with a pre-release =P lu
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
If it turns out that C or POSIX is the most common response, we should then default the locale to en_US.UTF-8 if we really want to default to a UTF-8 setting. The reason being it makes sense to have the default locale set to the country of origin, which in our case is the United States. Given the number of Gentoo devs (especially on the desktop side where this matters most) from other parts of the world, that's not really a valid argument. In particular in cases as e.g. Paper size setting, where basically US stubbornness stands against the rest of the planet. -- Andreas K. Huettel Gentoo Linux developer dilfri...@gentoo.org http://www.akhuettel.de/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 08/01/12 16:18, Andreas K. Huettel wrote: If it turns out that C or POSIX is the most common response, we should then default the locale to en_US.UTF-8 if we really want to default to a UTF-8 setting. The reason being it makes sense to have the default locale set to the country of origin, which in our case is the United States. Given the number of Gentoo devs (especially on the desktop side where this matters most) from other parts of the world, that's not really a valid argument. In particular in cases as e.g. Paper size setting, where basically US stubbornness stands against the rest of the planet. Every locale is wrong for somebody; the idea was that by taking a survey, you could make it wrong for the least amount of people (by default). If the majority of users use a stupid paper size, the best default is still whatever they use regardless of any personal preferences.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 04:29:42PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote Every locale is wrong for somebody; the idea was that by taking a survey, you could make it wrong for the least amount of people (by default). Question... has anybody ever considered that maybe a POSIX locale is wrong for the least amount of people??? There's also a very damning statement in the post that started this thread... On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:39:59PM +0200, Sascha Cunz wrote I recently discovered that I for some reason haven't noticed the warning about setting the locale to utf-8 in the gentoo handbook for obviously several years; thus i was still running all my systems in a POSIX locale since i never cared much about it. However, since I noticed, I talked to several people about it; all of them stating as first response: Not shipping with a utf-8 locale turned on by default nowadays probably is a bug in your distro That's right... the poster was running a POSIX locale for several years ***AND DID NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS RELATED TO IT***. Then several people said Not shipping with a utf-8 locale turned on by default nowadays probably is a bug in your distro. And suddenly it's a problem. What's next? Despite running with no problems for many years with a separate /usr and no initramfs, will we have several people come along and tell us that it's a bug in our distro? Oh... wait... The fact that other distros do it does not constitute justification for us to do it. If I wanted to run Redhat or Ubuntu, I'd run Redhat or Ubuntu. We're ignoring a very basic question here... what problems does shipping with a POSIX locale cause that would be fixed by setting a UTF8 default locale??? I want a real answer. Not something along the lines of But daddy, all the other kids are doing it. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote: We're ignoring a very basic question here... what problems does shipping with a POSIX locale cause that would be fixed by setting a UTF8 default locale??? I want a real answer. Not something along the lines of But daddy, all the other kids are doing it. Try reading the rest of the thread before posting a rant. Diego mentioned the python issue. As well, there are many test suites that malfunction without a UTF-8 or en_US.UTF-8 locale. If you hunt through Bugzilla, you can probably dig up other issues.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
Walter Dnes wrote: The fact that other distros do it does not constitute justification for us to do it. Unfortunately that exact reason, along with Fedora is doing it, was cited by a very active developer as reason to reject technical points which I tried to make a few times. But that is off-topic. Let's leave it for later. All I'm saying is don't underestimate pack mentality. //Peter
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
02.08.2012 04:20, Walter Dnes wrote: That's right... the poster was running a POSIX locale for several years ***AND DID NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS RELATED TO IT***. This discussion is very similar with one, that i have seen in Russian Linux community some years ago about migrating from ru_RU.KOI8-R to ru_RU.UTF-8. Arguments from KOI8-R guys were the same - Why we should change something if it works? and they are also did not notice fundamental problems with some vitally important packages, which can not be replaced or need to be heavily patched to work properly. Arguments from UTF-8 guys were not ideal, but locale change brokes only old or unsupported packages, so they win. P.S. I do not think that comparison with 'initramfs and separate /usr problem' is correct in this case. Default locale change is evolution, not revolution... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 07/30/12 15:02, Walter Dnes wrote: Would forcing UTF-8 cause problems for packages that expect specific ISO encodings in X fonts? Not that I know of (and setting a default wouldn't force anything). xfreecell's readme states Make sure there is a font named 7x14 and another thread mentions that this is provided by media-fonts/font-misc-misc so that sounds like a bug in the ebuild to me.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote: No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default. The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a bias towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose the most common utf8 response?
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote: No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default. The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a bias towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose the most common utf8 response? You'd really want to a which do you prefer, which can you use survey, then; You don't really want to choose the result preferred by the most people, rather you want the result which is usable by the most people. -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:35:36 -0400 Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote: No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default. The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a bias towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose the most common utf8 response? How can you take a survey like that? How will you ensure it actually hits the majority? How will you define the majority? -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 07/30/12 10:41, Michał Górny wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:35:36 -0400 Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote: No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default. The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a bias towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose the most common utf8 response? How can you take a survey like that? How will you ensure it actually hits the majority? How will you define the majority? Considering that the alternative is to force everyone to change it manually, you can do it however you want and it'll be an improvement. 1) Create a webpage with a bunch of options, count the results 2) Ask the g.o mailing lists, count responses manually 3) Use google docs like the website survey that went out a few days ago It won't hit everyone, but no survey ever does. As long as you get a large enough unbiased sample, it doesn't matter. And anything would be an improvement, so it doesn't matter anyway.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:35:36 -0400 Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote: No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default. The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a bias towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose the most common utf8 response? How can you take a survey like that? How will you ensure it actually hits the majority? How will you define the majority? Serverside script on gentoo.org. Push out a news item with the URL and a last-call date. Tabulate the results, using browser fingerprints to weed out the bulk of duplicates. -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: You'd really want to a which do you prefer, which can you use survey, then; You don't really want to choose the result preferred by the most people, rather you want the result which is usable by the most people. I tend to agree. Donnie said something in his manifesto which I think applies here: any of the proposed solutions is probably better than doing nothing. If I forget to tweak my locale and I end up with a comma as a decimal mark it isn't the end of the world, and neither is some output in metric units. I've ended up working on many a global system where times get reported in GMT and people put up with the inconvenience because they realize that any standard is better than no standard. What is the real end-user impact of any of this stuff anyway? During the install the thing that matters is being able to partition disks and compile kernels and such. I doubt that too many users will be dependent on installer locale settings for displaying weather reports or such. If they don't set locale, then it is like not setting localtime - you just get to live with some default. I would imagine that at least by having a UTF-8 locale users would be able to do things like set full names of users using unicode, etc. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 07/30/2012 11:04 AM, Michael Mol wrote: On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:35:36 -0400 Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote: No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default. The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a bias towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose the most common utf8 response? How can you take a survey like that? How will you ensure it actually hits the majority? How will you define the majority? Serverside script on gentoo.org. Push out a news item with the URL and a last-call date. Tabulate the results, using browser fingerprints to weed out the bulk of duplicates. I still advocate continuing how we have been. However, the survey should be one question: What is the output of `locale' on your workstation/desktop/laptop? The less painful we make the survey, the more respondents we'll get, and the less biased the results will be. Additionally, it makes the responses easy to parse with a script. Servers are excluded because special things take place there that may not actually line up with what the user prefers. If it turns out that C or POSIX is the most common response, we should then default the locale to en_US.UTF-8 if we really want to default to a UTF-8 setting. The reason being it makes sense to have the default locale set to the country of origin, which in our case is the United States. Yes, it may irk those whose native locale is not en_US.UTF-8, but like I said, no one will be happy. Except for those whose native locale happens to be the default. Start at a default, doesn't really matter which as long as the default is the lingua franca of international business, and instruct the user, as we already do, how to change it during the setup. - -- Mr. Aaron W. Swenson Gentoo Linux Developer Email: titanof...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : 2C00 7719 4F85 FB07 A49C 0E31 5713 AA03 D1BB FDA0 GnuPG ID : D1BBFDA0 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlAWrXAACgkQVxOqA9G7/aCmowD6A8+9giw1BhhxvAag7Cmeom7o mHVW49AfEDSo6ReknZkBAIa09FZ62SU66BCCi6m3Qisk5SW7P3YDLNbkMDS38/CZ =lFc0 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:50:29 -0400 Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 07/30/12 10:41, Michał Górny wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:35:36 -0400 Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote: No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default. The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a bias towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose the most common utf8 response? How can you take a survey like that? How will you ensure it actually hits the majority? How will you define the majority? Considering that the alternative is to force everyone to change it manually, you can do it however you want and it'll be an improvement. My point here is that you want the thing to change. So you first try to convince people here to change. We practically did a small survey here and in the result we didn't agree on doing the change. So you're saying we should do another survey on another group, hoping that this time the result will be on your side. 1) Create a webpage with a bunch of options, count the results 2) Ask the g.o mailing lists, count responses manually 3) Use google docs like the website survey that went out a few days ago It won't hit everyone, but no survey ever does. As long as you get a large enough unbiased sample, it doesn't matter. And anything would be an improvement, so it doesn't matter anyway. It depends on who the 'unbiased sample' is. Are you interested only in opinion of Gentoo users who visit the website? Who sync once a day? Once a week? Who follow Gentoo Planet? Who participate in the forums? We can create the survey and announce it everywhere. But it still won't catch many old-time Gentoo users who can actually have something opposite to say. It won't be unbiased. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:50:29 -0400 Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 07/30/12 10:41, Michał Górny wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:35:36 -0400 Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 07/27/12 16:16, Aaron W. Swenson wrote: No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default. The defaults should be what's best for the most people, with a bias towards safety. Why don't we just take a survey and choose the most common utf8 response? How can you take a survey like that? How will you ensure it actually hits the majority? How will you define the majority? Considering that the alternative is to force everyone to change it manually, you can do it however you want and it'll be an improvement. My point here is that you want the thing to change. So you first try to convince people here to change. We practically did a small survey here and in the result we didn't agree on doing the change. So you're saying we should do another survey on another group, hoping that this time the result will be on your side. 1) Create a webpage with a bunch of options, count the results 2) Ask the g.o mailing lists, count responses manually 3) Use google docs like the website survey that went out a few days ago It won't hit everyone, but no survey ever does. As long as you get a large enough unbiased sample, it doesn't matter. And anything would be an improvement, so it doesn't matter anyway. It depends on who the 'unbiased sample' is. Are you interested only in opinion of Gentoo users who visit the website? Who sync once a day? Once a week? Who follow Gentoo Planet? Who participate in the forums? We can create the survey and announce it everywhere. But it still won't catch many old-time Gentoo users who can actually have something opposite to say. It won't be unbiased. I was thinking about this, and I suspect that a survey period of 1-2 months is likely fine. It should also be enough to scoop up people who run servers and monitor those servers for security updates. -- :wq
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 07/30/12 12:28, Michał Górny wrote: My point here is that you want the thing to change. So you first try to convince people here to change. We practically did a small survey here and in the result we didn't agree on doing the change. So you're saying we should do another survey on another group, hoping that this time the result will be on your side. We didn't do a survey, we asked, Is there a reason for not using at least en_US.UTF-8 as a sane default value? Unsurprisingly, the responses contained reasons for not using en_US.UTF-8 as the default. Don't take my original reply out of context, I don't actually care what we have as the default. It depends on who the 'unbiased sample' is. Are you interested only in opinion of Gentoo users who visit the website? Who sync once a day? Once a week? Who follow Gentoo Planet? Who participate in the forums? We can create the survey and announce it everywhere. But it still won't catch many old-time Gentoo users who can actually have something opposite to say. It won't be unbiased. The technical objection to C.UTF-8 is that it's non-standard, Ok. What are the technical objections to LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8? If the alternatives are all improvements, the statistics are irrelevant.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 01:33:48PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote
The technical objection to C.UTF-8 is that it's non-standard, Ok.
What are the technical objections to LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8? If the
alternatives are all improvements, the statistics are irrelevant.
I ran into a problem several months ago with xfreecell not running.
Turned out the ISO8859-1 fonts were not being generated, just UTF-8.
xfreecell needs ISO8859-1 fonts. And it's not the only package. I
modified xorg-2.eclass so that font packages would build ISO8859-1. See
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/252316/ for the gory
details. Would forcing UTF-8 cause problems for packages that expect
specific ISO encodings in X fonts?
The important part of the eclass mod was to manually enable iso8859-1
and disable all other encodings...
if grep -q -s disable-all-encodings ${ECONF_SOURCE:-.}/configure; then
FONT_OPTIONS+=
--enable-iso8859-1
--disable-iso10646
--disable-iso10646-1
--disable-iso8859-2
--disable-iso8859-3
--disable-iso8859-4
--disable-iso8859-5
--disable-iso8859-6
--disable-iso8859-7
--disable-iso8859-8
--disable-iso8859-9
--disable-iso8859-10
--disable-iso8859-11
--disable-iso8859-12
--disable-iso8859-13
--disable-iso8859-14
--disable-iso8859-15
--disable-iso8859-16
--disable-jisx0201
--disable-koi8-r
else
FONT_OPTIONS+=
--disable-iso10646
--disable-iso10646-1
--disable-iso8859-2
--disable-iso8859-3
--disable-iso8859-4
--disable-iso8859-5
--disable-iso8859-6
--disable-iso8859-7
--disable-iso8859-8
--disable-iso8859-9
--disable-iso8859-10
--disable-iso8859-11
--disable-iso8859-12
--disable-iso8859-13
--disable-iso8859-14
--disable-iso8859-15
--disable-iso8859-16
--disable-jisx0201
--disable-koi8-r
fi
--
Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 20 July 2012 06:28, Ulrich Mueller u...@gentoo.org wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Sascha Cunz wrote: Is there a reason for not using at least en_US.UTF-8 as a sane default value? Because there's no one-size-fits-all locale, but it is specific to every system so the user must configure it? While this is understandable, the fact remains that not having a UTF-8 locale by default in our stage3 environment is sub-optimal. I understand why the council rejected Debian's C.UTF-8 option, but is there really no better default that we can use? Without any default locale set, in practically all cases that means that the user is presented with English, and mostly the American variant. So, in practice, we are defaulting to en_US, just not in a unicode environment. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, in most other places (such as our website, GLEPs, ebuilds) we default to en_US.UTF-8. So let's upgrade to en_US.UTF-8, which is for most users more desirable than the current situation. Of course we will still advise them to set their desired locales in /etc/locale.gen. But at least they will start with a unicode environment, as expected anno 2012. The matter was recently discussed in this mailing list [1] and also in the March 2012 council meeting [2], and as a result the docs team has amended the respective section [3] of the handbook. Ulrich [1] http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_2ffb7ea72e6209439600c371f6fc071d.xml [2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20120313.txt [3] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=1chap=8 -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer Gentoo Qt project lead, Gentoo Wiki admin
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Fri, 27 Jul 2012, Ben de Groot wrote: I understand why the council rejected Debian's C.UTF-8 option, but is there really no better default that we can use? Without any default locale set, in practically all cases that means that the user is presented with English, and mostly the American variant. So, in practice, we are defaulting to en_US, just not in a unicode environment. Correct me if I'm wrong. See below. We're not defaulting to en_US for things like the number format. Also, in most other places (such as our website, GLEPs, ebuilds) we default to en_US.UTF-8. So let's upgrade to en_US.UTF-8, which is for most users more desirable than the current situation. Of course we will still advise them to set their desired locales in /etc/locale.gen. But at least they will start with a unicode environment, as expected anno 2012. As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. So if we change the default (but I still don't see the need), we should go for a less intrusive setting like: LANG=POSIX LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 Ulrich [1] http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_56a438adde8efebd467ada5f858048ba.xml
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/27/2012 03:08 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote: As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. So if we change the default (but I still don't see the need), we should go for a less intrusive setting like: LANG=POSIX LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 I would love to see a utf8 default, if the above is agreeable then I say +1 - -Zero -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQEkD6AAoJEKXdFCfdEflKt8MP/3wRoExV11rO5aV5952hwKhd x9AG3wGJQqGFLkKW++gU1RLX8rhxZE+W8cRlp3/4Q1b6yLGFp7UihZv/rQj1SJra Uz4OWqzzdYAkfkzr2MOgB94iODXInuuSbZmhcvOg8d7cgbhW3p0aIQ59uqkqom6W U0a8BohmGtTEMvWurMtvz705atv0z8aRUsoBUkagCUmRqg96j8HJRbMibNFKcHaa tzilNblkCouPmh5VZNuoCNIVrs6ADOT+kXmhZ8DeuOOdM88irPr41gz557K97J4l u9ZWElpLY8zse+dHSioybE57cb9ISNph9B3OjmrzEmxMYO/Vs8+8ZRIgX4A4U2FZ BDISvf2u77ZUhv48gCuC6pj+np7IMAUgRgk1xWiSkPIWxvlcPcvFo/K1dle3FofL iNAxf0XcLj+crfBemhnvDWTB0ZCIIBcyn0MYax70lzcwR0t0q+xJ8XBN1hF3xWob LOUSCd1sibc2a65D5olc/qKSjINM5KY3D+CVXhojhD1YzklmrKBb9K5gk6ziZr2y w4OMOIkDc+iHYq0xhcYRAJU38+cuX9ViNq9O4H3ILpQXi+KRKlk4PmlLIm2v9evb P+JNsRSl+1sxUkn2ZthBh+83vj/WtnR0s1sXEzc+6riBomBGsc0Hbsoa9Z+JgNhF FzvV5OHsfNiuHvAzayww =ZiLb -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Friday, July 27, 2012 09:08:36 AM Ulrich Mueller wrote: On Fri, 27 Jul 2012, Ben de Groot wrote: I understand why the council rejected Debian's C.UTF-8 option, but is there really no better default that we can use? Without any default locale set, in practically all cases that means that the user is presented with English, and mostly the American variant. So, in practice, we are defaulting to en_US, just not in a unicode environment. Correct me if I'm wrong. See below. We're not defaulting to en_US for things like the number format. Also, in most other places (such as our website, GLEPs, ebuilds) we default to en_US.UTF-8. So let's upgrade to en_US.UTF-8, which is for most users more desirable than the current situation. Of course we will still advise them to set their desired locales in /etc/locale.gen. But at least they will start with a unicode environment, as expected anno 2012. As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. So if we change the default (but I still don't see the need), we should go for a less intrusive setting like: LANG=POSIX LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 Ulrich You're concerned about the commas breaking things? Given that you usually need to specifically ask for them (i.e., printf ' flag), and that kind of output is usually going to be for human consumption only that seems unlikely. If anything does rely upon the format, can't tolerate different locales, and fails to specify LC_NUMERIC then it's broken anyway. LC_MONETARY / LC_MEASUREMENT as en_US are probably slightly more annoying defaults for some people. What do users of other distros think? Is this really a serious problem for anyone? LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 would be a bare minimum. The important bit is getting utf8 by default. I can live with LANG=POSIX. -- Dan Douglas signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On 27 July 2012 16:06, Dan Douglas orm...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday, July 27, 2012 09:08:36 AM Ulrich Mueller wrote: On Fri, 27 Jul 2012, Ben de Groot wrote: I understand why the council rejected Debian's C.UTF-8 option, but is there really no better default that we can use? Without any default locale set, in practically all cases that means that the user is presented with English, and mostly the American variant. So, in practice, we are defaulting to en_US, just not in a unicode environment. Correct me if I'm wrong. See below. We're not defaulting to en_US for things like the number format. Also, in most other places (such as our website, GLEPs, ebuilds) we default to en_US.UTF-8. So let's upgrade to en_US.UTF-8, which is for most users more desirable than the current situation. Of course we will still advise them to set their desired locales in /etc/locale.gen. But at least they will start with a unicode environment, as expected anno 2012. As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. So if we change the default (but I still don't see the need), we should go for a less intrusive setting like: LANG=POSIX LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 Ulrich You're concerned about the commas breaking things? Given that you usually need to specifically ask for them (i.e., printf ' flag), and that kind of output is usually going to be for human consumption only that seems unlikely. If anything does rely upon the format, can't tolerate different locales, and fails to specify LC_NUMERIC then it's broken anyway. LC_MONETARY / LC_MEASUREMENT as en_US are probably slightly more annoying defaults for some people. What do users of other distros think? Is this really a serious problem for anyone? LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 would be a bare minimum. The important bit is getting utf8 by default. I can live with LANG=POSIX. -- Dan Douglas How about the below? LANG=en_GB.utf8 LC_COLLATE=C LC_CTYPE=en_GB.utf8 That will give us A4 paper size and the metric system. If LC_NUMERIC is really a problem, we can set it to something more desirable. -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer Gentoo Qt project lead, Gentoo Wiki admin
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
Ulrich Mueller wrote: On Fri, 27 Jul 2012, Ben de Groot wrote: So let's upgrade to en_US.UTF-8, which is for most users more desirable than the current situation. Of course we will still advise them to set their desired locales in /etc/locale.gen. But at least they will start with a unicode environment, as expected anno 2012. As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. For this very reason by system locale is en_IE.UTF-8. Still English but using Euro Monetary, Metric units, A4 paper, etc. It might suit needs for most European installs, but not for everyone. -- Cyprien / Fulax Gentoo Lisp Project contributor
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 10:38:30 +0200 Cyprien Nicolas c.nico...@gmail.com wrote: Ulrich Mueller wrote: On Fri, 27 Jul 2012, Ben de Groot wrote: So let's upgrade to en_US.UTF-8, which is for most users more desirable than the current situation. Of course we will still advise them to set their desired locales in /etc/locale.gen. But at least they will start with a unicode environment, as expected anno 2012. As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. For this very reason by system locale is en_IE.UTF-8. Still English but using Euro Monetary, Metric units, A4 paper, etc. It might suit needs for most European installs, but not for everyone. Still uses ',' for thousands sep. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 16:34:01 +0800 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: On 27 July 2012 16:06, Dan Douglas orm...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday, July 27, 2012 09:08:36 AM Ulrich Mueller wrote: On Fri, 27 Jul 2012, Ben de Groot wrote: I understand why the council rejected Debian's C.UTF-8 option, but is there really no better default that we can use? Without any default locale set, in practically all cases that means that the user is presented with English, and mostly the American variant. So, in practice, we are defaulting to en_US, just not in a unicode environment. Correct me if I'm wrong. See below. We're not defaulting to en_US for things like the number format. Also, in most other places (such as our website, GLEPs, ebuilds) we default to en_US.UTF-8. So let's upgrade to en_US.UTF-8, which is for most users more desirable than the current situation. Of course we will still advise them to set their desired locales in /etc/locale.gen. But at least they will start with a unicode environment, as expected anno 2012. As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. So if we change the default (but I still don't see the need), we should go for a less intrusive setting like: LANG=POSIX LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 Ulrich You're concerned about the commas breaking things? Given that you usually need to specifically ask for them (i.e., printf ' flag), and that kind of output is usually going to be for human consumption only that seems unlikely. If anything does rely upon the format, can't tolerate different locales, and fails to specify LC_NUMERIC then it's broken anyway. LC_MONETARY / LC_MEASUREMENT as en_US are probably slightly more annoying defaults for some people. What do users of other distros think? Is this really a serious problem for anyone? LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 would be a bare minimum. The important bit is getting utf8 by default. I can live with LANG=POSIX. -- Dan Douglas How about the below? LANG=en_GB.utf8 LC_COLLATE=C LC_CTYPE=en_GB.utf8 That will give us A4 paper size and the metric system. If LC_NUMERIC is really a problem, we can set it to something more desirable. LC_NUMERIC=pl_PL.utf8 -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
Ulrich Mueller schrieb: As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. So if we change the default (but I still don't see the need), we should go for a less intrusive setting like: LANG=POSIX LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 This would be better than LANG=en_US.utf8 but I would still prefer not to have any country/region attached to the locale. The C.UTF-8 locale which Debian uses for this purpose (a UTF-8 locale without side effects) appears more suitable to me. Best regards, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Friday 27 July 2012 08:13:16 Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote: Ulrich Mueller schrieb: As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. So if we change the default (but I still don't see the need), we should go for a less intrusive setting like: LANG=POSIX LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 This would be better than LANG=en_US.utf8 but I would still prefer not to have any country/region attached to the locale. The C.UTF-8 locale which Debian uses for this purpose (a UTF-8 locale without side effects) appears more suitable to me. yes, and i'm waiting on the POSIX group to formalize C.UTF-8. that's the only real option in my mind for making unicode the default. any other amalgamations of various locales is ugly as sin. -mike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
El vie, 27-07-2012 a las 13:24 -0400, Mike Frysinger escribió: On Friday 27 July 2012 08:13:16 Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote: Ulrich Mueller schrieb: As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. So if we change the default (but I still don't see the need), we should go for a less intrusive setting like: LANG=POSIX LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 This would be better than LANG=en_US.utf8 but I would still prefer not to have any country/region attached to the locale. The C.UTF-8 locale which Debian uses for this purpose (a UTF-8 locale without side effects) appears more suitable to me. yes, and i'm waiting on the POSIX group to formalize C.UTF-8. that's the only real option in my mind for making unicode the default. any other amalgamations of various locales is ugly as sin. -mike Do you have any idea about how much time could that formalization take? If it will take a long time, maybe we could go to that amalgamations :-/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 07/27/2012 02:29 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote: El vie, 27-07-2012 a las 13:24 -0400, Mike Frysinger escribió: On Friday 27 July 2012 08:13:16 Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote: Ulrich Mueller schrieb: As I had pointed out before [1], changing from POSIX to an en_US locale will have undesirable side effects, like commas as thousands separators in numbers (because of LC_NUMERIC). Also the defaults of en_US for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER are only useful in the U.S. So if we change the default (but I still don't see the need), we should go for a less intrusive setting like: LANG=POSIX LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 This would be better than LANG=en_US.utf8 but I would still prefer not to have any country/region attached to the locale. The C.UTF-8 locale which Debian uses for this purpose (a UTF-8 locale without side effects) appears more suitable to me. yes, and i'm waiting on the POSIX group to formalize C.UTF-8. that's the only real option in my mind for making unicode the default. any other amalgamations of various locales is ugly as sin. -mike Do you have any idea about how much time could that formalization take? If it will take a long time, maybe we could go to that amalgamations :-/ Really, how much of an inconvenience is it that we don't use UTF-8 as a default? In my mind, it is sufficient that we instruct users how to set the locale in the handbook. No user will be happy with whatever we decide to use as a default. I will be especially upset if we use the metric system instead of the *STANDARD* system. It has 'standard' in the name for a reason people. (^_^) - -- Mr. Aaron W. Swenson Gentoo Linux Developer Email: titanof...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : 2C00 7719 4F85 FB07 A49C 0E31 5713 AA03 D1BB FDA0 GnuPG ID : D1BBFDA0 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlAS9xEACgkQVxOqA9G7/aDXmQEAmKW1MNgHDZpjE0JBWsWssq0h LR32rvm0CrafIhD6v3UA/Aiuq6BTGxfJ3pO6+pP5xtQ5RD0ML5+89sSfKX6R1DEo =JtMV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
Il 27/07/2012 13:16, Aaron W. Swenson ha scritto: Really, how much of an inconvenience is it that we don't use UTF-8 as a default? Given that there are a ton and a half of Python packages that do not work with a non-utf8 locale, I'd say it's quite a thing. So either we go with an UTF-8 default or somebody has to fix the packages not working without it -- Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes flamee...@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
I recently discovered that I for some reason haven't noticed the warning about setting the locale to utf-8 in the gentoo handbook for obviously several years; thus i was still running all my systems in a POSIX locale since i never cared much about it. However, since I noticed, I talked to several people about it; all of them stating as first response: Not shipping with a utf-8 locale turned on by default nowadays probably is a bug in your distro. While thinking about this and recognizing that indeed recent distributions ship with some UTF-8 locale by default, I tend to agree on that statement. Though, google brings up a lot of good documentation about how to change the locale, I couldn't find something that tells why stage3 is still delivered with posix locale set. Is there a reason for not using at least en_US.UTF-8 as a sane default value? BR, SaCu
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
Sascha Cunz schrieb: Is there a reason for not using at least en_US.UTF-8 as a sane default value? It has been discussed some time ago already. Setting LANG=en_US.UTF-8 would mess with collation rules, measurementpaper units etc. which has the potential to make users outside USA unhappy. It might make sense to set LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF8 but even so, transliteration may give you unexpected results. To illustrate this, try running echo äå | LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 iconv -t ASCII//TRANSLIT -f UTF-8 echo äå | LC_CTYPE=da_DK.UTF-8 iconv -t ASCII//TRANSLIT -f UTF-8 echo äå | LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8 iconv -t ASCII//TRANSLIT -f UTF-8 and compare the output. For the previous discussion, see this thread: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_2ffb7ea72e6209439600c371f6fc071d.xml Best regards, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
Re: [gentoo-dev] UTF-8 locale by default
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Sascha Cunz wrote: Is there a reason for not using at least en_US.UTF-8 as a sane default value? Because there's no one-size-fits-all locale, but it is specific to every system so the user must configure it? The matter was recently discussed in this mailing list [1] and also in the March 2012 council meeting [2], and as a result the docs team has amended the respective section [3] of the handbook. Ulrich [1] http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_2ffb7ea72e6209439600c371f6fc071d.xml [2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20120313.txt [3] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=1chap=8
