Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
(Late reply due to busy week, just want to clarify a small detail) On Sun, May 19, 2013 16:34, Peter Stuge wrote: J. Roeleveld wrote: I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of inodes. That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when storing lots of smaller files. I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds, as long as you haven't configured an INSTALL_MASK to avoid installing them. (Why haven't you?) Are you saying that a few hundred inodes more will break many systems? It doesn't seem very likely to me. Peter, I agree, it is not likely, but this was in relation to embedded devices where diskspace is often at a premium. I will probably start a new thread on gentoo-user about inodes and filesystems configuration later this year. -- Joost ps. no need to reply to this :)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Tue, May 21, 2013 09:03, Alan McKinnon wrote:
I don't like gnu info files. Neither me nor anyone I know can figure out
how to drive info.
This reminded me of my experience with info-files. Don't know how long ago
it was that I used them as I find google to be a much more useful
resource.
But you might be interested in the following:
* app-text/info2html
Available versions: (2.0) *2.0
{{vhosts}}
Homepage:http://info2html.sourceforge.net/
Description: Converts GNU .info files to HTML
I haven't tried it myself yet. (Ignore the hardmask part in the output,
that's because the portage-filesystem is not automatically mounted)
--
Joost
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Fri, 24 May 2013, J Roeleveld wrote:
This reminded me of my experience with info-files. Don't know how
long ago it was that I used them as I find google to be a much more
useful resource.
But you might be interested in the following:
* app-text/info2html
Available versions: (2.0) *2.0
{{vhosts}}
Homepage:http://info2html.sourceforge.net/
Description: Converts GNU .info files to HTML
I haven't tried it myself yet.
Usually the result is much better if you start from the Texinfo source
and use texi2any --html (included with sys-apps/texinfo itself) for
conversion.
Ulrich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 22/05/2013 23:39, Daniel Campbell wrote: I do not consider Gentoo to be only about my own choices, but as a user, who else's choices am I going to consider when I administer my system? I'm happy for any new choices as long as they don't step on mine. I think that's fair. Your choices are necessarily constrained by the fact that other people also have choices, and those people use a copy of the same machinery you use to implement their choices. You do not operate in a vacuum, and you cannot consider just your own choices and get a sane result - Godel proved that this cannot happen in this universe, in much the same way you cannot multiple two and three and get nine. Now, you cannot know what choices I've made here on my systems, but you do know that I have choices and you must consider that fact when making your choices. This has many side-effects, but the most common is that often you have to give a little to get a lot. In the case of systemd - people like Canek have the choice to use it, and to give him that choice you pretty much have to tolerate that all our machines are going to get unit files. That's the bit where you give a little. It works in reverse too. If you want KDE you get .desktop files and so does everyone else, and they too must give a little. If the generic machinery (aka package managers) that deals with this stuff doesn't quite cut the mustard as you would like, you still retain the ultimate choice: rm or it's expedient cousin INSTALL_MASK -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Wed, 22 May 2013 17:21:40 +0200 Luca Barbato lu_z...@gentoo.org wrote: On 05/21/2013 09:03 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 21/05/2013 05:03, Daniel Campbell wrote: That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. This push to make systemd a first level citizen or whatever reeks of marketing. If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like they're hard to write. amused long-term user chipping in This is such a weak argument it's quite laughable. I don't like gnu info files. Neither me nor anyone I know can figure out how to drive info. So, let's rip all the info files out of every package; leaving the 3 users who do know info free to grab their copies from upstream. I mean it's not like it's hard or anything, and info files are easy to write. check the FEATURES variable and be surprise =) (from man make.conf) nodoc Do not install doc files (/usr/share/doc). noinfo Do not install info pages. noman Do not install manpages. Adding a nounits norunscript and such might work and had been proposed. Yet it's just redundant and a more specific form of INSTALL_MASK. Without the ability to e.g. rebuild packages which were installing given files. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Wed, 22 May 2013 16:39:25 -0500 Daniel Campbell dlcampb...@gmx.com wrote: I'm curious as to why you consider users who want to save disk space (openrc or systemd, or other packages, it doesn't matter) as fundamentalists. I'd call them using other words but I didn't want to be that inpolite. Seriously, there are bigger problems in the world than a few text files. And much bigger useless space consumers which you don't even notice because they don't have the 'systemd' name on them. If you care about disk space, then find the biggest consumers and try to work on them. Otherwise, you're just picking. And that's close to fundamentalism. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Thu, 23 May 2013 05:30:25 + (UTC) Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: That's the point. It *IS* possible to use INSTALL_MASK sanely, without something breaking. Nobody said it isn't, I agree hacks can be used without breaking things; the point is that that doesn't make it a good idea in general. Applying your exact phrasing to the topic at hand: If you really think[1] you can't use INSTALL_MASK without something breaking, you should carefully consider who is doing the screwing up. If you really think[1] you need INSTALL_MASK for a few small files when there are much larger consumers around, you should carefully consider whether what you are doing is the right thing. (OMG systemd units!) [1] Think: Or for that matter, demonstrate to yourself and others. -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/23/2013 01:41 AM, Michał Górny wrote: On Wed, 22 May 2013 16:39:25 -0500 Daniel Campbell dlcampb...@gmx.com wrote: I'm curious as to why you consider users who want to save disk space (openrc or systemd, or other packages, it doesn't matter) as fundamentalists. I'd call them using other words but I didn't want to be that inpolite. Seriously, there are bigger problems in the world than a few text files. And much bigger useless space consumers which you don't even notice because they don't have the 'systemd' name on them. If you care about disk space, then find the biggest consumers and try to work on them. Otherwise, you're just picking. And that's close to fundamentalism. I can't speak for others who wish to rid their systems of systemd, but personally I look for any excessive use of space on my HDD, despite it being rather large. Since you brought it up, which packages can you think of that most or all Gentoo boxes will have that take up more considerable amounts of files or disk space? I'm honestly interested in *anything* that lowers the disk usage of my OSes; to a point, anyway. Supporting X or Y codec or feature in the kernel would be more important than saving 50kB in the kernel binary, for instance. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJRnc0WAAoJEJUrb08JgYgH8I0H/RqmDrgkexeLCaBB2RDXKyjv EAZeVQvjNuxzTJz5Qr+CNHgpAk58YCZVcH+IBspD3Ks1DatKzyoSxuwwG70lfDmX k/Rp9T+YL/gZnC3Ey6x/ScAwZIDlDbbZO3xwOt+3fHZEhiCE4IFEsCiaWCwEGHV1 NrROzDRBICYc9KePAtksqvYEovu8ex2JCAbthHhDb7fKvr3TqWCBzWtbSMVr0x9k ZWliahhmEx7IjZ65/yvv/AM2JYzLwaM1hwQxYUX+myTK5YFjMAaMLMZrEgiWp6KZ a8R0sW7SqbBlbP2z7nJjCrlggDYqMMF4Mv1x7uT0QPiiRxq32+FHcJinwecTHS8= =sOIU -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 23 May 2013 03:02:30 -0500 Daniel Campbell dlcampb...@gmx.com wrote: I can't speak for others who wish to rid their systems of systemd, but personally I look for any excessive use of space on my HDD, despite it being rather large. Since you brought it up, which packages can you think of that most or all Gentoo boxes will have that take up more considerable amounts of files or disk space? I'm honestly interested in *anything* that lowers the disk usage of my OSes; to a point, anyway. Supporting X or Y codec or feature in the kernel would be more important than saving 50kB in the kernel binary, for instance. These things are likely documented on websites on the internet, on wikis related to Gentoo and on our forums; if not, you can always start a new thread on the Gentoo Forums, a new discussion on social media (Google+, #gentoo-chat on FreeNode, the gentoo-user ML, ...) or so. Feel free to ping me by mail if you do so, I'll be happy to help... If you are an user that wishes to contribute to gentoo-dev, please stay on topic in the thread you are discussing in as well as with the goal of the ML; if you think we should implement or document space cleaning better, then you're always welcome to start a new thread about that. Thank you in advance. - -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJRneV4AAoJEJWyH81tNOV9i8kIAJ8ukPzgwMCFcNVc9u/4PFPh r3T2bHUNZDK7tZoOtjgdQsiEhwtZGThDaIbNbJ3xvAzqh0gd/mY2qUDBKSZRX8oS JzFK86ZhjKqwm8TBZH/kXTRx98IgV6XxGmsDaGO0c9Zy0lQOzjhdhcCIpzVQwCa9 tZ51n0YlZQcCmL7ZU66/7Nd9Wrx6M6in9Jik6TSk7DH9ACs6IxTKG2WF1kVShI2m rd50w//F2ACHHZ0pXWjX9XJmNMOkD+jjHI/yV23GvObXJ8ZqXiicAIAT7G89YtBi G1ew93E2p9WQ06qIFSMfl/+4yQYTfHFRkSpetTAIkpXfAPruoXNhGmaDmadY+is= =V7zd -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/23/2013 04:02 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote: I can't speak for others who wish to rid their systems of systemd, but personally I look for any excessive use of space on my HDD, despite it being rather large. Since you brought it up, which packages can you think of that most or all Gentoo boxes will have that take up more considerable amounts of files or disk space? I'm honestly interested in *anything* that lowers the disk usage of my OSes; to a point, anyway. Supporting X or Y codec or feature in the kernel would be more important than saving 50kB in the kernel binary, for instance. It's not even that we don't agree with you, it's that you're asking package and/or PM maintainers to do a bunch of work to save you a few kilobytes of disk space. Their time is better spent elsewhere, I promise. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRnmuyAAoJEBxJck0inpOizroP/340iUw1ftiVKPh7I1cHFF19 9zBV7nW4hrQ25l0uViwLWtt9GMQ+TJK28cT3ru5/L5cQYIJpAmCpaB8bWGuLx1V3 O1XAtFJ16pu7gU72B7/0lGHIbxpl6qcMt+vKvuSnSQme6NANWadf0i3P3UvddGFS zB4QSbyyePtnjEGEL1mbN3+nZM58u9c3m0vkYfbY7TahclhH0HX48nc+IJTxReVF 22Z/KC7UaGzsXfJR+BDC0RPH42WTaVGkdytE6yotR5JchnLUxujhShYbfumbJs4g lRlP46bTlUzPEyriqRhdePsyEELDusACrIPzBK82BNEJP47WuO00kIi78CZ7dgyQ ix82I2d1UQG7+UFEui+eBroDnAmTIPxOgxsIBYMNTc2pUJmnSqHva7iY8QMkBEvo LddGMLFpjHj3D2LfM4L+RwZxpz0XRZCtZeDeYRnkXqEuPj7Df9/t+3LV5zljyho7 ppRJtBQvHGpB6G7z3HALyc8XIMXQmDtTBoE+CJms8Ifzd2Hs05Muo05he2C+dr8c b0zDg/5LqG2XloszqB+1MxZNvL9O8vUpAZS9ZIu/Q8+4UpGXO5yPav42aHIWx+Zi t4KYd8m9i4Wlusi+o4PCBvW4R0a0aOPJyfExg2eqKNFxMcZ2W+pUFgM2tFiZZC10 Am4B9ySQtlgiYa5Agwg2 =gYkv -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Wed, 22 May 2013 03:06:05 + (UTC) Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: And a knife or hammer can be used to murder or commit suicide as well; that doesn't mean they're bad tools, it means the user is misusing them. The amount of users misusing a knife or hammer is much lower than the amount of users misusing INSTALL_MASK. And even if you want to use it as an example, murdering is only bad when you consider it to be bad. Anyhow, the knife and hammer aren't the best tools around to do it as your target will have a high chance of surviving. Unless you target people that don't defend themselves, all you make is a few scratches. There's more advanced knives and hammers too, but you don't have to procure the most expensive one to do the job. You do, because better tools cost more effort. In some cases, even a heavy screwdriver can be used as a hammer, if that's what you have in your hand and the hammer's down the ladder in the toolbox. It's this kind of lazyness that ends up breaking things. In other Package managers, I assume this madness isn't supported. That might be part of why I don't use other PMs... But other users do, because Portage isn't perfect. In its current state, it certainly has its use cases; though it is often misused by unaware users that don't know what removal of certain files has as a consequence, that means it can do more bad than good... [1]: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-670094.html First INSTALL_MASK I came across searching for it online, particularly masking *.h, *.pc and Makefile* are very bad ideas. Did you read the use case? He is (was, that was 2008) doing the builds for his 2GB drive netbook on different build system, then doing binpkg installs on the netbook. In that case, INSTALL_MASKING those filetypes for installation to the netbook, where he has no intention of doing any building anyway, makes quite a lot of sense. A good lesson is that people don't actually read all that stuff, those that are looking for values for INSTALL_MASK will often just try it for themselves only to see these dangerous values fail and start bothering them. Or they may not know it's because of their INSTALL_MASK that they need to reinstall their system some time later. Historically, ricing other settings like the CFLAGS in make.conf is a quite good example of why this file is a red herring; it took quite some time for the concept of SAFE CFLAGS to get some attention. That's why SAFE INSTALL MASKS is amongst one of the suggestions I made in the earlier reply; people on an embedded profile could mask these files, other people cannot unless they _explicitly_ unmask the ability to mask. In fact, I have a netbook (tho it has a much larger 100+ gig drive) and could use the idea myself (altho currently I don't run a PM at all on the netbook, instead rsyncing from the build image on the main machine, so I'd have to modify his use case... or mine... somewhat). Not running a PM makes this paragraph irrelevant to this discussion. As for people misusing the available tools, gentoo has always taken the position that we make the tools available and document how to use them, but we aren't a babysitting or handholding distro, and if handholding is what people want/need, they better look elsewhere as gentoo's simply not in that market, and doesn't pretend to be. We do babysitting / handholding where we can, the _right_ amount of it. Not bringing out news or supporting people with the udev upgrade, that would've cost us people; not working on options that make systemd work, that would've cost us people. Not pointing to solutions for the recent automake errors / genkernel blocker, that would've cost us people. Let's not sacrifice part of our user base by taking a wrong decision; developing a distro goes much further than let's just use this hack, until multiple people agree a hack to be the best short term solution. Go consistently make the worst tools available, we'll talk again then. -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 4:46 AM, Tom Wijsman tom...@gentoo.org wrote: The amount of users misusing a knife or hammer is much lower than the amount of users misusing INSTALL_MASK. Agreed. A typical user would almost never need to use INSTALL_MASK. If they're using it, they're probably doing something wrong. If you want to not install unit files, I'd say you're probably doing something wrong, but if you want to do that anyway, INSTALL_MASK is in fact the most appropriate tool for the job. Ditto if you don't want to install init.d scripts. Let's not sacrifice part of our user base by taking a wrong decision; developing a distro goes much further than let's just use this hack, until multiple people agree a hack to be the best short term solution. Few people NEED to INSTALL_MASK systemd units. For those who don't care about a few hundred inodes, just use the system and don't worry about this. For those who go nuts over it, use the feature. You get to keep the pieces if you use it wrong. If you don't want to break your system, just set the desktop profile, don't touch your flags, and just emerge what you want. Your system will work just fine. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 05/21/2013 09:03 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 21/05/2013 05:03, Daniel Campbell wrote: That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. This push to make systemd a first level citizen or whatever reeks of marketing. If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like they're hard to write. amused long-term user chipping in This is such a weak argument it's quite laughable. I don't like gnu info files. Neither me nor anyone I know can figure out how to drive info. So, let's rip all the info files out of every package; leaving the 3 users who do know info free to grab their copies from upstream. I mean it's not like it's hard or anything, and info files are easy to write. check the FEATURES variable and be surprise =) (from man make.conf) nodoc Do not install doc files (/usr/share/doc). noinfo Do not install info pages. noman Do not install manpages. Adding a nounits norunscript and such might work and had been proposed. lu
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Tue, 21 May 2013 21:37:25 + (UTC) Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: Ciaran McCreesh posted on Tue, 21 May 2013 14:50:04 +0100 as excerpted: On Tue, 21 May 2013 04:45:12 + (UTC) Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: But the point you're missing is that INSTALL_MASK is NOT a hack. Sure it is. It's a hack and remains a hack until there's a way of using it without risk of breakage. LOL. Better turn off that computer then. By your definition it's a hack. Or at least remove anything gentoo related from it. That's a hack too. Oh, and that stove and microwave, better throw them away too, because leave something cooking too long and... FIRE! So they're hacks too. That's nonsense, and you know it. There is a big difference between a carefully designed feature that only breaks if someone screws up, and something which breaks arbitrarily with no warning. One of the things about working with computers is that, if something breaks, it's because someone screwed up. If you really think you can't use your computer without something breaking, you should carefully consider who is doing the screwing up. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 05/22/2013 08:21 AM, Luca Barbato wrote: check the FEATURES variable and be surprise =) (from man make.conf) nodoc Do not install doc files (/usr/share/doc). noinfo Do not install info pages. noman Do not install manpages. Adding a nounits norunscript and such might work and had been proposed. It will require portage to be able to predict where the units are installed, and also be able to avoid accidentally wiping out anything else that may be installed nearby. The prediction issue also comes up in this bug which requests a 'dounit' ebuild helper: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=469086 Maybe the package manager should query the unit location from pkg-config? -- Thanks, Zac
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Zac Medico zmed...@gentoo.org wrote: On 05/22/2013 08:21 AM, Luca Barbato wrote: check the FEATURES variable and be surprise =) (from man make.conf) nodoc Do not install doc files (/usr/share/doc). noinfo Do not install info pages. noman Do not install manpages. Adding a nounits norunscript and such might work and had been proposed. It will require portage to be able to predict where the units are installed, and also be able to avoid accidentally wiping out anything else that may be installed nearby. The prediction issue also comes up in this bug which requests a 'dounit' ebuild helper: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=469086 Maybe the package manager should query the unit location from pkg-config? That sounds reasonable to me.
Re: Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 05/20/2013 10:34 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Daniel Campbell dlcampb...@gmx.com wrote: On 05/19/2013 01:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge pe...@stuge.se wrote: J. Roeleveld wrote: I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of inodes. That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when storing lots of smaller files. I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds (Sorry, sent email before it was ready). Laptop running full GNOME: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 154 1547012 Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 121 1215560 And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere else. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Unit files are not software; they are data. And I believe you are the one missing the point. I don't run OpenRC; I don't need no files in /etc/init.d. But you don't see me (nor any other systemd user) complaining about pointless scripts in /etc/init.d. I just put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK and go on with my life. Non-systemd users should do the same for files under /usr/lib/systemd, if they really are that worried about systemd infecting their systems. Complaining about a council-decided policy (and, I believe, backed up by the developers that matter, including the OpenRC maintainers) is just beating on a dead horse. Get over it. Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. This push to make systemd a first level citizen or whatever reeks of marketing. If Gentoo is about choice, then systemd is one of those choices. And systemd will become a first class citizen inside Gentoo, like it or not. Support for it has been getting better and better, and more and more Gentoo users are running with systemd. If some fundamentalists users don't want even one file in their systems with systemd on their paths, they can install eudev/mdev, put the necessary directories in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. If some other fundamentalists users (like myself) don't want even one OpenRC related file on our systems, we can create an overlay to remove the dependency of baselayout on OpenRC, put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. Neither case covers the average systemd/OpenRC user, who doesn't care about a few scattered files in /etc/init.d nor /usr/lib/systemd, and just want to run her machine with the init system of her choice. If Gentoo is really about choice. If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like they're hard to write. So, Gentoo is about choice, but only for the choices you agree with. Great. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México It seems that I've stepped on a few toes in calling INSTALL_MASK a hack. Hacks aren't necessarily bad; if anything it shows that there's interest in supporting something but perhaps not enough time or manpower to implement a more robust solution. If adding one or two directories to that variable will nuke any unit files, consider me happy. systemd is certainly a choice, but it is no more deserving of consideration than any other init system. I don't see anyone calling for runit to be a 'first level citizen'. I wonder why that is. Again, if INSTALL_MASKing openrc dirs will get rid of init scripts for systemd users, then perhaps INSTALL_MASK is the best we have for now and should make use of it. I never said that it wasn't suitable to use. As for complaining about policy, what is the proper thing to do in a situation where someone questions the reasoning behind a decision? Are there links somewhere on Gentoo's website that outline the process for each important decision that the council's made? I think it'd be valuable information for people and keep individuals like you from telling others to get over it without any explanation whatsoever. That's not communication, that's prescription. I'm curious as to why you consider users who want to save disk
Re: Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Daniel Campbell dlcampb...@gmx.com wrote: On 05/20/2013 10:34 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Daniel Campbell dlcampb...@gmx.com wrote: On 05/19/2013 01:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge pe...@stuge.se wrote: J. Roeleveld wrote: I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of inodes. That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when storing lots of smaller files. I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds (Sorry, sent email before it was ready). Laptop running full GNOME: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 154 1547012 Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 121 1215560 And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere else. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Unit files are not software; they are data. And I believe you are the one missing the point. I don't run OpenRC; I don't need no files in /etc/init.d. But you don't see me (nor any other systemd user) complaining about pointless scripts in /etc/init.d. I just put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK and go on with my life. Non-systemd users should do the same for files under /usr/lib/systemd, if they really are that worried about systemd infecting their systems. Complaining about a council-decided policy (and, I believe, backed up by the developers that matter, including the OpenRC maintainers) is just beating on a dead horse. Get over it. Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. This push to make systemd a first level citizen or whatever reeks of marketing. If Gentoo is about choice, then systemd is one of those choices. And systemd will become a first class citizen inside Gentoo, like it or not. Support for it has been getting better and better, and more and more Gentoo users are running with systemd. If some fundamentalists users don't want even one file in their systems with systemd on their paths, they can install eudev/mdev, put the necessary directories in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. If some other fundamentalists users (like myself) don't want even one OpenRC related file on our systems, we can create an overlay to remove the dependency of baselayout on OpenRC, put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. Neither case covers the average systemd/OpenRC user, who doesn't care about a few scattered files in /etc/init.d nor /usr/lib/systemd, and just want to run her machine with the init system of her choice. If Gentoo is really about choice. If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like they're hard to write. So, Gentoo is about choice, but only for the choices you agree with. Great. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México It seems that I've stepped on a few toes in calling INSTALL_MASK a hack. Hacks aren't necessarily bad; if anything it shows that there's interest in supporting something but perhaps not enough time or manpower to implement a more robust solution. If adding one or two directories to that variable will nuke any unit files, consider me happy. As I was, when I used to put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK. systemd is certainly a choice, but it is no more deserving of consideration than any other init system. I don't see anyone calling for runit to be a 'first level citizen'. I wonder why that is. Probably because is used by a really small number of users, contrary to systemd Again, if INSTALL_MASKing openrc dirs will get rid of init scripts for systemd users, then perhaps INSTALL_MASK is the best we have for now and should make use of it. I never said that it wasn't suitable to use. Then we agree. As for complaining about policy, what is the proper thing to do in a situation where someone questions the reasoning behind a decision? Contribute? Are there links somewhere on Gentoo's website that outline the process for each important decision that the council's made? The
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 11:42:08AM -0700, Zac Medico wrote It will require portage to be able to predict where the units are installed, and also be able to avoid accidentally wiping out anything else that may be installed nearby. The prediction issue also comes up in this bug which requests a 'dounit' ebuild helper: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=469086 Maybe the package manager should query the unit location from pkg-config? I think this is the wrong algorithm... i.e. asking where files of type X are installed, and wreaking havoc in in that location. I think that it would be more robust for the installer to decide which files are of type X, and not install them in the first place. This approach does not risk wiping files from another program in the same directory. And preventative action is generally better than cleaning up after the fact. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 21/05/2013 05:03, Daniel Campbell wrote: That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. This push to make systemd a first level citizen or whatever reeks of marketing. If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like they're hard to write. amused long-term user chipping in This is such a weak argument it's quite laughable. I don't like gnu info files. Neither me nor anyone I know can figure out how to drive info. So, let's rip all the info files out of every package; leaving the 3 users who do know info free to grab their copies from upstream. I mean it's not like it's hard or anything, and info files are easy to write. Daniel, you should just get over it. Having choices means you let the other guy have his choices too. Sometimes that means you have to let that guy have a little bit of his infra lying around so his choice is possible. And no-one ever said having choices means your exact personal preferences wrt every little thing will be baked in. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Tue, 21 May 2013 09:03:54 +0200 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 21/05/2013 05:03, Daniel Campbell wrote: That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. This push to make systemd a first level citizen or whatever reeks of marketing. If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like they're hard to write. amused long-term user chipping in This is such a weak argument it's quite laughable. I don't like gnu info files. Neither me nor anyone I know can figure out how to drive info. Arrows move the cursor, enter follows links, '/' searches. And don't dare touch anything else because nobody knows what could happen! -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Mon, May 20, 2013, at 11:03 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote: That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. You've either won the Unreasonably Pedantic Award or the Will Say Any Stupid Thing Prove His/Her Point Award. Please let me know which one to send to you. -a
Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Daniel Campbell dlcampb...@gmx.com wrote: something truly astonishing Well, I have to at least thank you for turning this from just a typical Gentoo flame-war into a breeding ground for LWN Quote of the Week candidates. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 05/20/2013 11:34 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Daniel Campbell dlcampb...@gmx.com wrote: [snip] That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Unit files are not software; they are data. That's like saying shell scripts are not software, they are data. Unit files, semantically and collectively, are a system-behavior-defining set of interpreted modules written in a declarative language. In fact, that's what makes them even remotely appealing, on comparison to shell-based init scripts; they make declarations of requirements, the what, and leave it to the system resolver to work out the how. (It's from this perspective that I like the idea of using unit files as a point of origin for *generating* init configurations like systemv, openrc or runit scripts. You'd be compiling the init script for the target init system, and your result should be more robust for it.) And I believe you are the one missing the point. I don't run OpenRC; I don't need no files in /etc/init.d. But you don't see me (nor any other systemd user) complaining about pointless scripts in /etc/init.d. I just put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK and go on with my life. Non-systemd users should do the same for files under /usr/lib/systemd, if they really are that worried about systemd infecting their systems. Complaining about a council-decided policy (and, I believe, backed up by the developers that matter, including the OpenRC maintainers) is just beating on a dead horse. The push to keep USE flags specific to enabling and disabling program features seems weird to me; the semantics of USE flags seem valuable for a great deal more than that. Get over it. Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. This push to make systemd a first level citizen or whatever reeks of marketing. If Gentoo is about choice, then systemd is one of those choices. This I take no issue with. And systemd will become a first class citizen inside Gentoo, like it or not. ... Support for it has been getting better and better, and more and more Gentoo users are running with systemd. And users are switching to eudev and mdev as well. Personally, I think heterogeneity is a good thing...That's a huge part of why I like Gentoo; it's a crucible for open-source software that tends to bring breakages in edge-case (but theoretically supported) configurations to upstream attention. If some fundamentalists ... users don't want even one file in their systems with systemd on their paths, they can install eudev/mdev, put the necessary directories in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. If some other fundamentalists users (like myself) don't want even one OpenRC related file on our systems, we can create an overlay to remove the dependency of baselayout on OpenRC, put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. Neither case covers the average systemd/OpenRC user, who doesn't care about a few scattered files in /etc/init.d nor /usr/lib/systemd, and just want to run her machine with the init system of her choice. If Gentoo is really about choice. It is, and it should be. If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like they're hard to write. So, Gentoo is about choice, but only for the choices you agree with. Great. Nobody says the devs must do whatever the users demand of them; the devs are unpaid. The best arguments in this thread, to my eye, have been to encourage devs to accept user-contributed unit files. As users, you and I can't force devs to do anything. But we can always pull up our sleeves and dig in ourselves. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Tue, 21 May 2013 04:45:12 + (UTC) Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: But the point you're missing is that INSTALL_MASK is NOT a hack. Sure it is. It's a hack and remains a hack until there's a way of using it without risk of breakage. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 05/21/2013 09:50 AM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 21 May 2013 04:45:12 + (UTC) Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: But the point you're missing is that INSTALL_MASK is NOT a hack. Sure it is. It's a hack and remains a hack until there's a way of using it without risk of breakage. That's a silly requirement. Every time I sit down with one of my systems and start playing/exploring (If I've gone a month without getting somewhat competent with something completely new to me, it's been a bad month) with USE flags, I break my system with within hours. USE flags are awesome at what they do, and they're incredibly robust, but that doesn't mean that toggling features on and off isn't dangerous. On a working system, *anything* you might touch in /etc/portage/make.conf carries with it the risk of breakage. This is what makes Gentoo a place for people who are willing to get their hands dirty understanding how their system works. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Tue, 21 May 2013 09:57:53 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/21/2013 09:50 AM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 21 May 2013 04:45:12 + (UTC) Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: But the point you're missing is that INSTALL_MASK is NOT a hack. Sure it is. It's a hack and remains a hack until there's a way of using it without risk of breakage. That's a silly requirement. Every time I sit down with one of my systems and start playing/exploring (If I've gone a month without getting somewhat competent with something completely new to me, it's been a bad month) with USE flags, I break my system with within hours. USE flags are awesome at what they do, and they're incredibly robust, but that doesn't mean that toggling features on and off isn't dangerous. And you're reporting bugs for all these missing or automagic dependencies, right? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 05/21/2013 10:02 AM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 21 May 2013 09:57:53 -0400 Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/21/2013 09:50 AM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 21 May 2013 04:45:12 + (UTC) Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: But the point you're missing is that INSTALL_MASK is NOT a hack. Sure it is. It's a hack and remains a hack until there's a way of using it without risk of breakage. That's a silly requirement. Every time I sit down with one of my systems and start playing/exploring (If I've gone a month without getting somewhat competent with something completely new to me, it's been a bad month) with USE flags, I break my system with within hours. USE flags are awesome at what they do, and they're incredibly robust, but that doesn't mean that toggling features on and off isn't dangerous. And you're reporting bugs for all these missing or automagic dependencies, right? Actually, yes. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Tue, 21 May 2013 21:37:25 + (UTC) Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: [snip] FIRE! [snip] hacks of tools, thank you very much! =:^) Glad you like it! Something that breaks isn't a solution though... It's a specifically designed part of the whole gentoo support of choice system you mention. I wouldn't call something that's added to our red herring (make.conf) as an afterthought designed, but rather a lack of better approaches. In the Portage tree we could avoid users from having to mask files, because that could break their system anyway; eg. Go mask some typical files [1], you'll end up breaking package compilations in the long run as they need these files installed on your system. In Portage the /etc/package.* files are a good example, more advanced include / exclude file masking in the same way would certainly be a benefit and some kind of base / profile forced install unmask too. In other Package managers, I assume this madness isn't supported. In its current state, it certainly has its use cases; though it is often misused by unaware users that don't know what removal of certain files has as a consequence, that means it can do more bad than good... [1]: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-670094.html First INSTALL_MASK I came across searching for it online, particularly masking *.h, *.pc and Makefile* are very bad ideas. -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 05/19/2013 01:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge pe...@stuge.se wrote: J. Roeleveld wrote: I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of inodes. That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when storing lots of smaller files. I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds (Sorry, sent email before it was ready). Laptop running full GNOME: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 154 1547012 Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 121 1215560 And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere else. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. This push to make systemd a first level citizen or whatever reeks of marketing. If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like they're hard to write.
Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Daniel Campbell dlcampb...@gmx.com wrote: On 05/19/2013 01:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge pe...@stuge.se wrote: J. Roeleveld wrote: I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of inodes. That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when storing lots of smaller files. I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds (Sorry, sent email before it was ready). Laptop running full GNOME: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 154 1547012 Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 121 1215560 And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere else. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. Unit files are not software; they are data. And I believe you are the one missing the point. I don't run OpenRC; I don't need no files in /etc/init.d. But you don't see me (nor any other systemd user) complaining about pointless scripts in /etc/init.d. I just put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK and go on with my life. Non-systemd users should do the same for files under /usr/lib/systemd, if they really are that worried about systemd infecting their systems. Complaining about a council-decided policy (and, I believe, backed up by the developers that matter, including the OpenRC maintainers) is just beating on a dead horse. Get over it. Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. This push to make systemd a first level citizen or whatever reeks of marketing. If Gentoo is about choice, then systemd is one of those choices. And systemd will become a first class citizen inside Gentoo, like it or not. Support for it has been getting better and better, and more and more Gentoo users are running with systemd. If some fundamentalists users don't want even one file in their systems with systemd on their paths, they can install eudev/mdev, put the necessary directories in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. If some other fundamentalists users (like myself) don't want even one OpenRC related file on our systems, we can create an overlay to remove the dependency of baselayout on OpenRC, put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. Neither case covers the average systemd/OpenRC user, who doesn't care about a few scattered files in /etc/init.d nor /usr/lib/systemd, and just want to run her machine with the init system of her choice. If Gentoo is really about choice. If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like they're hard to write. So, Gentoo is about choice, but only for the choices you agree with. Great. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 05/18/2013 03:23 PM, Carlos Silva wrote: Is the real problem just the god damn unit/init files?! Damn, who cares about 2KiB files in the age of GiBs?! You can install 1000 of them that it will only take 2MiB of storage, so please, quit complaining about this. Practically speaking, I think the problem is likely more about the inode usage than the physical size of the files. With today's huge disks, the problem does seem to be becoming the cost of metadata over the cost of the data itself. (Why else would we need sectors larger than 512 bytes?) One thing dev's should take care is (not that affects me, 'cause I really don't care) is mentions to rc-update on einfo's. Again, I really don't care, but, for the sake of making them (openrc, systemd, etc) equal, that really shouldn't be mentioned. [snip] signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
Am Sonntag, 19. Mai 2013, 14:59:21 schrieb Michael Mol: On 05/18/2013 03:23 PM, Carlos Silva wrote: Is the real problem just the god damn unit/init files?! Damn, who cares about 2KiB files in the age of GiBs?! You can install 1000 of them that it will only take 2MiB of storage, so please, quit complaining about this. Practically speaking, I think the problem is likely more about the inode usage than the physical size of the files. With today's huge disks, the problem does seem to be becoming the cost of metadata over the cost of the data itself. (Why else would we need sectors larger than 512 bytes?) Then use a decent file system. http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_3.8#head-372b38979138cf2006bd0114ae97f889f67ef46a EOT -- Andreas K. Huettel Gentoo Linux developer dilfri...@gentoo.org http://www.akhuettel.de/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
Andreas K. Huettel dilfri...@gentoo.org wrote: Am Sonntag, 19. Mai 2013, 14:59:21 schrieb Michael Mol: On 05/18/2013 03:23 PM, Carlos Silva wrote: Is the real problem just the god damn unit/init files?! Damn, who cares about 2KiB files in the age of GiBs?! You can install 1000 of them that it will only take 2MiB of storage, so please, quit complaining about this. Practically speaking, I think the problem is likely more about the inode usage than the physical size of the files. With today's huge disks, the problem does seem to be becoming the cost of metadata over the cost of the data itself. (Why else would we need sectors larger than 512 bytes?) Then use a decent file system. http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_3.8#head-372b38979138cf2006bd0114ae97f889f67ef46a EOT -- Andreas K. Huettel Gentoo Linux developer dilfri...@gentoo.org http://www.akhuettel.de/ Andreas. I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of inodes. That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when storing lots of smaller files. -- Joost -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
J. Roeleveld wrote: I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of inodes. That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when storing lots of smaller files. I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds, as long as you haven't configured an INSTALL_MASK to avoid installing them. (Why haven't you?) Are you saying that a few hundred inodes more will break many systems? It doesn't seem very likely to me. //Peter
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge pe...@stuge.se wrote: J. Roeleveld wrote: I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of inodes. That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when storing lots of smaller files. I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds, Full GNOME as long as you haven't configured an INSTALL_MASK to avoid installing them. (Why haven't you?) Are you saying that a few hundred inodes more will break many systems? It doesn't seem very likely to me. //Peter -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge pe...@stuge.se wrote: J. Roeleveld wrote: I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of inodes. That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when storing lots of smaller files. I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds (Sorry, sent email before it was ready). Laptop running full GNOME: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 154 1547012 Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services: # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc 121 1215560 And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere else. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
Good news. I've been able to make logind work with OpenRC and GNOME 3.6 (which means that GNOME 3.8 can work as well). Disclaimer: I use systemd as device manager. I don't know if my logind (there is a bug about it) works with udev without further hacking. See: https://plus.google.com/u/0/107663298003289209275/posts/TxjqZkniR9f Now, the problem is that, as I wrote before, we're more and more drifting away from what upstream is supporting. Today the source of all our troubles is just GNOME, I am afraid that tomorrow it will expand beyond it. There are technical advantages for both distro makers and desktop environment makers in using systemd (besides the disadvantages). For instance, having a centralized tool for collecting system and user logs is certainly something that would make our job easier, having working (or mostly working) init scripts provided directly by upstream projects would reduce our maintenance burden in the long run. Anyway, I'm not trying to convince anybody in using either init systems, I am just suggesting that you should try both and decide yourself. Which translated, is the same goal as making systemd more accessible to you. -- Fabio Erculiani
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 10:45:18PM -0500, William Hubbs wrote No one is arguing against that. All this thread is about is making systemd a first-class citizen, like OpenRC/Sysvinit, so it will be as smooth as possible for someone who wants to switch between the two. It seems that some of the proposals are crossing the line to make systemd first-class and openrc second-class. *THAT* is what's causing the complaints. The best analogy I can think of is the more extreme type of affirmative action that effectively amounts to racial discrimination against white people. The pro-systemd group here is advocating double-standards... 1) http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/dev/272180?do=post_view_threaded Having a package to install every systemd unit in existence just clutters the end user's system and makes it harder to tell which units are actually valid. Yet openrc users are supposed to accept having their systems cluttered with systemd units. 2) I suggested keying on a systemd USE flag, to inform portage whether or not to install systemd units. I was told that https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198901 forbade using it that way. And therefore systemd config files would be installed regardless of flags. Therefore udev/eudev don't have systemd flags. But both have openrc flags, and will not run OK on an openrc machine without the openrc flag. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
Am Samstag, 18. Mai 2013, 19:02:12 schrieb Walter Dnes: [snip] Having a package to install every systemd unit in existence just clutters the end user's system and makes it harder to tell which units are actually valid. Yet openrc users are supposed to accept having their systems cluttered with systemd units. This is getting more and more ridiculous. Next, systemd users will (correctly) remark that their systems are unnecessarily cluttered with openrc init scripts. Then, I may remark that my system is unnecessarily cluttered by quite some cmake modules that can search for libraries I'll never install. Not to speak of the boost sub-libraries that none of my installed packages uses. Etc etc etc. Please get a grip. 2) I suggested keying on a systemd USE flag, to inform portage whether or not to install systemd units. I was told that https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198901 forbade using it that way. And therefore systemd config files would be installed regardless of flags. Therefore udev/eudev don't have systemd flags. But both have openrc flags, and will not run OK on an openrc machine without the openrc flag. The decision was made long ago. Use flags are not the correct way to control solely the installation of a few small files. If you really care (i.e. embedded systems), this is what install masks are for. Then just modify your /etc/make.conf accordingly. Believe me, that goes much faster than writing another discussion mail. -- Andreas K. Huettel Gentoo Linux developer dilfri...@gentoo.org http://www.akhuettel.de/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Andreas K. Huettel dilfri...@gentoo.org wrote: The decision was made long ago. Use flags are not the correct way to control solely the installation of a few small files. This was really the heart of the discussion where the decision was made before. USE flags should control things that affect dependencies, especially linked dependencies. If a package wants to pull in systemd or link to it, then it should have a USE flag if at all possible. Likewise if a package wants to pull in openrc or link to it then it should have a USE flag. When you're talking about just a few text files it isn't worth it. Those who disagree can use INSTALL_MASK and nuke them from orbit. Openrc isn't going anywhere as long as somebody cares to maintain it. I don't see that changing anytime soon, and if it does change the only thing its users can do is step up and maintain it (or pay somebody to do it for them). That's pretty-much how everything works on Gentoo, or any other volunteer distro. Don't worry about it - considering we had a few devs step up and fork udev I doubt openrc is going away anytime soon. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
Is the real problem just the god damn unit/init files?! Damn, who cares about 2KiB files in the age of GiBs?! You can install 1000 of them that it will only take 2MiB of storage, so please, quit complaining about this. One thing dev's should take care is (not that affects me, 'cause I really don't care) is mentions to rc-update on einfo's. Again, I really don't care, but, for the sake of making them (openrc, systemd, etc) equal, that really shouldn't be mentioned. On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Rich Freeman ri...@gentoo.org wrote: On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Andreas K. Huettel dilfri...@gentoo.org wrote: The decision was made long ago. Use flags are not the correct way to control solely the installation of a few small files. This was really the heart of the discussion where the decision was made before. USE flags should control things that affect dependencies, especially linked dependencies. If a package wants to pull in systemd or link to it, then it should have a USE flag if at all possible. Likewise if a package wants to pull in openrc or link to it then it should have a USE flag. When you're talking about just a few text files it isn't worth it. Those who disagree can use INSTALL_MASK and nuke them from orbit. Openrc isn't going anywhere as long as somebody cares to maintain it. I don't see that changing anytime soon, and if it does change the only thing its users can do is step up and maintain it (or pay somebody to do it for them). That's pretty-much how everything works on Gentoo, or any other volunteer distro. Don't worry about it - considering we had a few devs step up and fork udev I doubt openrc is going away anytime soon. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 01:02:12PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 10:45:18PM -0500, William Hubbs wrote No one is arguing against that. All this thread is about is making systemd a first-class citizen, like OpenRC/Sysvinit, so it will be as smooth as possible for someone who wants to switch between the two. It seems that some of the proposals are crossing the line to make systemd first-class and openrc second-class. *THAT* is what's causing the complaints. The best analogy I can think of is the more extreme type of affirmative action that effectively amounts to racial discrimination against white people. The pro-systemd group here is advocating double-standards... 1) http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/dev/272180?do=post_view_threaded Having a package to install every systemd unit in existence just clutters the end user's system and makes it harder to tell which units are actually valid. Agreed, I don't propose having a package that installs all of the systemd units. Yet openrc users are supposed to accept having their systems cluttered with systemd units. 2) I suggested keying on a systemd USE flag, to inform portage whether or not to install systemd units. I was told that https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198901 forbade using it that way. And therefore systemd config files would be installed regardless of flags. Therefore udev/eudev don't have systemd flags. But both have openrc flags, and will not run OK on an openrc machine without the openrc flag. We do that because there is a separate package (udev-init-scripts) in the tree which has the OpenRC init scripts for udev and eudev. Both of them have RDEPENDS on this package if the openrc use flag is set. Also, there are some udev rules in the udev-init-scripts package which should not be installed if openrc is not in use. So, the use flag does more than just not install init scripts. William signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 01:58:41AM +0100, Steven J. Long wrote: William Hubbs wrote: waltdnes wrote: Question... when Sun made OpenOffice depend on Java (also a Sun product) did Gentoo developers run around suggesting that Java be made a part of the core Gentoo base system? I don't think so. If a user wants to run GNOME badly enough, he'll switch to systemd. I don't see why the rest of us (i.e. non-users of GNOME) should have to follow along and reconfigure our systems. This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. I don't interpret what he is saying that way. I think what he is talking about is that we are trying to get teams to support non-systemd setups when upstreams do not, like with gnome. Gnome now has a hard dependency on systemd (for gnome newer than 3.8). Some folks want to use gnome without systemd and are putting that under the gentoo is about choice banner and want us to support them. I haven't seen anyone say that in this entire discussion, but I might have missed something. If a user wants to run GNOME, he [can] switch to systemd is clearly not saying that, so we're left with an enigmatic some who haven't posted to this thread, afaics. The point I'm trying to make here is that for gnome =3.8, upstream gnome does not support running gnome without systemd afaik. It's clear to me that users have been forced through lots of changes over the last 5 years, even where we just want to carry on using our machines the way we always have. Isn't that what convenience layers are about? So Walter's point stands. No it doesn't, because Gentoo Linux isn't requiring you to run systemd. Fabio Erculiani wrote So what do we want to do then? Isolate from the rest of the world? (It's not a sarcastic question). I hope that everybody does their own reality check. Gnome can depend on w/e upstream require. How is that the whole world? It's not even the whole Linux ecosystem, and I can't see Qt giving up cross- platform independence, just to work with systemd. That was never going to happen, so it was never going to happen in KDE either, however enthused a few of its volunteers were, since KDE is a showcase for Qt. You're right: reality-checks are clearly needed all over the place. You are effectively calling not-using-GNOME isolationist. Let's just say I disagree with you on that. BTW, see my sig. It's clear to me that systemd devs are the real isolationists: everyone else has to do everything their way, or they'll throw their toys out of the pram, including the ones they stole. The real trouble with N+1 True Way is the contortions it forces them through, as they explain why this time they've got it right, and how badly they got it wrong last time. That wouldn't be an issue-- everyone makes mistakes-- if they hadn't rubbished everyone else who pointed out issues along the way. After a few years of that, sorry but enough already. Matthew Thode wrote: If upstream gnome has that dep on systemd then I kinda think we should too (technical decision, not one I like personally) I think we should too: all anyone has said is Gnome is not Linux. Presenting its choices as representative of every DE and upstream project is simply misleading. I haven't done that, and I don't know of anyone else who has. Claiming that making it easier to use systemd is in everyone's interests is clearly untrue as well, since many of us our interests are caught up with a modular system we can build and configure how we require. That's why we came to Gentoo, and why we stay. No one is arguing against that. All this thread is about is making systemd a first-class citizen, like OpenRC/Sysvinit, so it will be as smooth as possible for someone who wants to switch between the two. But I'm sure someone will declaim about how systemd doesn't force anything on anyone (leveraging udev builds against your explicit word, doesn't count, nor do any of the other changes like requiring an initramfs where none was needed before: those are just things you should do because we tell you to) and Lennartware hasn't already forced major changes and upgrade pain, for no tangible benefit to the desktop-users it was purportedly aimed at. Systemd has nothing to do with requiring an initramfs, so please de-couple those issues. Yes, the systemd devs are the ones who wrote up the issues around why an initramfs should be used if /usr is separate, but systemd itself doesn't care. William signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Steven J. Long sl...@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk wrote: On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 12:04:00PM +0200, Fabio Erculiani wrote: PLEASE DO NOT START A FLAME WAR AND READ ON FIRST. THIS IS NOT A POST AGAINST OPENRC. With the release of Sabayon 13.04 [1] and thanks to the efforts I put into the systemd-love overlay [2], systemd has become much more accessible and easy to migrate to/from openrc. Both are able to happily coexist and logind/consolekit detection is now done at runtime. That's great: well done :-) Can I just check: what about people not using consolekit nor logind? This has nothing to do with it. If you don't want consolekit nor logind just USE=-consolekit -systemd. It looks like you haven't clear what I'm writing about, though. It is sad to say that the territoriality in base-system (and toolchain) is not allowing any kind of progress [3] [4]. This is nothing new, by the way. I don't think you help yourself by making that kind of remark: when I read those bugs I see some valid concerns being raised, which you just ignore. For instance, wrt nonsensical blockers I too would like to know some examples, as was queried in comment 27 [3]. In fact it was the first thing that came to mind when reading your post, as I thought where possible things were just installed for systemd (such as unit files) even when the user is not using it. Have you ever tried to fully migrate to systemd from openrc? Clearly not. There are several components that need patching in order to work as expected with systemd: - polkit needs a patch that enables runtime detection of logind/consolekit - pambase needs to drop USE=systemd and always enable the optional module pam_systemd.so Again, what about people not using consolekit, nor logind, with no intention of ever installing systemd? I've got nothing against this so long as it is guaranteed not to break my pam setup. As-is I feel *very* wary of a change that unconditionally requires a 'pam_systemd.so'. Please note I am not hostile to your aims: I am merely seeking reassurance. Do you know how pam works? And did you understand the meaning of my words? Do you know what optional means in this context? - genkernel needs to migrate to *udev (or as I did, provide a --udev genkernel option), mdev is unable to properly activate LVM volumes and LVM is actually working by miracle with openrc. Why is that such a miracle? openrc has worked with lvm since the beginning afair, and is both clean, portable C, and modular. Do you know how LVM and udev and systemd interact wrt volumes activation? Alternatively, we should migrate to dracut. - networkmanager need not to install/remove files depending on USE=systemd but rather detect systemd at runtime, which is a 3 lines script. Sounds reasonable; since I don't use it, that can't affect me in any case. My goal wrt openrc is to keep the current level of support and just make systemd users' life easier. - openrc-settingsd needs to support eselect-settingsd, which makes possible to switch the settingsd implementation at runtime, between openrc and systemd. This also removes the silly conflict between openrc-settingsd and systemd friends. - genkernel should at least support plymouth (work in progress my side) - other ~490 systemd units are missing at this time and writing them could also be a great GSoC project (don't look at me, I'm busy enough). All this would come with no cost for the current openrc state (actually, my initramfs speed improvements patches in genkernel.git also benefit openrc). If Gentoo is about choice, we should give our users the right to choose between the init system they like the most. I must be missing something as I thought they already had that choice. Please, write about something you actually manage to _know_. And also, please do read my post title. This is not a flamewar topic, I want to discuss about improving the systemd experience. From reading the bug, the only pro of your approach is that the user does not have to edit the kernel command-line to try out a new init. Initially, you tried to sell this as lowering the bar which is actually a con afaic: if someone is trying to run Gentoo and is incapable of dealing with the kernel command-line, it's likely they won't be able to install it; they certainly won't be able to maintain it, ime. Later, we get the some EFI bootloaders don't allow it. Could you elaborate on how a system we install grub to, won't allow us to change anything? I am not doubting you: I just think we need more explanation of the exact context where we can install Gentoo, but not a bootloader. Being Gentoo does not absolutely mean that we have to craft watches and play VHS with the tongue every time we want to do something. Making things easy is an orthogonal concept! It looks like there is some consensus on the effort of making systemd more accessible, Sure there is: there's also
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to normal users
On 01/05/13 10:11 PM, Duncan wrote as excerpted: Steven J. Long posted on Wed, 01 May 2013 19:52:03 +0100 as excerpted: Gentoo is about choice, which to me also means embrace diversitiy. If you want to keep living in your little world, fine, you can and you're very welcome, but also people who want to have fun with new stuff should get the same respect. You mean the respect you've shown me in this email, in my little world? *swoon* you hero. I give up trying to be polite in the face of such crap, it's more than I can stomach. Implementing new stuff also means making things easier, especially in the systemd case. LMAO. You go girl, strut that nonsense like it means something. No way, sunshine. [...] Or at very least be polite when someone queries it. Unfortunately, I believe the above demands a public post... The above is taking it too far. Please take a bit of time to cool off if you need it, then apologize, or if you choose not to do that, refrain from further posts to the list. Agreed in full. I was prepared to write a response, but this is far more eloquent than anything I could have written. I'll go one step further, and say that this is just an example of the toxic behavior that's been shown in the Gentoo community, in particular this mailing list. This complete lack of any semblance of empathy, even in some *Gentoo developers* is entirely unacceptable. Things like a bunch of crybabies, whinging threads, Avoid spreading FUD, Really, please stop spreading FUD. (from different people), Good arguments! As usual I'd say. (sarcasm), Just to annoy people who have successfully used..., ad nauseam are, at best, not remotely productive. Please, just consider for a second how your words will, or even /might/ be perceived by others. Even better: although it might seem beneath you, consider how you yourself might perceive them, were they to be said from someone else. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
