Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
hi all, the reason I talked myself into the position of 'maintainer of default resources' (is that a title like 'floor manager' at mcdonalds?) at the LGM is that I voiced concern over how they can either enhance or sabotage the product vision: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision to give a fictive, crass, but clear example: if somebody checks out GIMP because she is looking for a 'high-end photo manipulation application' and is confronted by 213 (well-drawn) clown face brushes, then we are in fact killing the GIMP project. first of all, resources in GIMP are: - brushes - patterns - gradients - palettes - paint dynamics - tool presets so what are we looking for for each of these resources? well, apart from rule nr.1 formulated above (enhance the product vision? in; sabotage? out) I think it is either 1) the default resource is a 'must-have primitive' for the resource type. simply cannot do without it. this is analogous to that a graphics program 'must have' a way to draw squares, rectangles, circles, ellipses, lines. or 2) the default resource is general purpose, very versatile. example: a brush to paint grass is _not_. a brush that with some tweaking and combining can be used to paint grass, hair, fur, brushed metal and rain _is_. or 3) the default resource showcases the depths and sophistication of the resource type. the stress here is on being educational and a starting point for users to make their own deep, sophisticated resources. I am not having high hopes for these defaults also to be 'must-have primitive' or 'general purpose, very versatile,' so there is not going to be a lot of them and they better be classy. oh, and talking about classy, there is going to be a 'no cheese rule'. a Leopard pattern? no no no. then here some notes for some of the resource types: patterns a first look here tell me that application of the rules above will clear out (almost) the whole section. size matters here, large (thousands instead of 16–128 pix) patterns to avoid visible repetition. the one thing I can think of we need pronto is one or more believable film grain patterns for photo manipulation. gradients similar big cull coming palettes the websafe/visibone stuff looks really deprecated in 2010. something like the Tango Icon Theme palette is an excellent example of a resource the fits with the product vision (GIMP is Free Software and a high-end application for producing icons). paint dynamics paint dynamics are still fully in development, including the actual functionality. it is not useful at the moment to contribute paint dynamics presets. one last thing: we have a green pepper problem. it fails several of criteria outlined above, but the GIMP team seems to be emotionally attached to it. similar to the GIMP name, we seem to wear it as a badge of honour. so I am 50/50 on in/out. this may prove to be the hardest decision of my career ^} --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Help a newbie fill in some holes
I have spent some time investigating this in order to ask intelligent questions but I give up, here goes. I use Gimp for photography and as pre-press for presentations and web-sites. I am retired from a career of medical image processing, so I have a history and a library of C++ image manipulation routines. I would like some new tools in Gimp and I've searched plug-ins and scripts. My first problem is that I am not comfortable that the tools I want don't exist rather than I just haven't found them yet. What I'd like to do is: * Rotate by an arbitrary angle. I've scanned an image but the page was not square in the scanner or camera. The best way to do this is to draw a line on the edge of the page and have a command that rotates it to horizontal or vertical. The algorithm is well defined and easy (except for indexed color images). * Draw arrows and shapes over an image (new vector layer). I found a shape drawing plugin that is fine except you fill in a form instead of draw the outline with a cursor, and it doesn't use the pen defined in the main window. My questions: * Do plug-ins like this already exist? * Would you write these as core, plug-ins, or scripts? I did download and build 2.7.1 from sources and have a NetBeans project working for development, I've been using my compiled version. I'm exploring the sources and while I'm familiar with the algorithms for what I want to do, I have a long way to go figuring out where to hook in. I'd appreciate advice on documentation, and source modules to read. Sorry for the newbie questions to the list. Joe ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:49 AM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote: hi all, the reason I talked myself into the position of 'maintainer of default resources' (is that a title like 'floor manager' at mcdonalds?) at the LGM is that I voiced concern over how they can either enhance or sabotage the product vision: (...) one last thing: we have a green pepper problem. it fails several of criteria outlined above, but the GIMP team seems to be emotionally attached to it. similar to the GIMP name, we seem to wear it as a badge of honour. so I am 50/50 on in/out. this may prove to be the hardest decision of my career ^} One thing that applies to to the pepper , but may ease the conflict of what should go in or not: maybe the default resources could be tagged to default -- and instead of showing all items at program satrt=up, we could show just the deffault tagged items. That way, the pepper, sun, wine brushes could go under a bitmap tag, but have no default tag attached. That would also make it easier to display just the wanted gradients - several of the gradients shipped with GIMP are used in tiny-fu scripts. (as for the pepper per se, my personal opinion: I have no problem at all with it going away. I have _one_ real use for it: it helps me to locate the pixel brush, since it is next to it in alphabetical order. The pixel brush should, IMHO, be tagged pixel by default, so it can be found with less keystrokes) js -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help a newbie fill in some holes
On 19 July 2010 17:36, Joseph Areeda are...@gmail.com wrote: Rotate by an arbitrary angle. I've scanned an image but the page was not square in the scanner or camera. The best way to do this is to draw a line on the edge of the page and have a command that rotates it to horizontal or vertical. The algorithm is well defined and easy (except for indexed color images). This was brought up recently, in the following thread http://www.mail-archive.com/gimp-developer%40lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/msg20264.html See especially the last email. Draw arrows and shapes over an image (new vector layer). I found a shape drawing plugin that is fine except you fill in a form instead of draw the outline with a cursor, and it doesn't use the pen defined in the main window. See the branch soc-2006-vector-layers in git: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/refs/heads IIRC, this has been dropped from the 2.8 schedule due to resource constraints. Half the gimp world would probably love the people who finally gets this merged and polished up. -- Regards Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
Thanks for opening this discussion, Peter. On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:49 AM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote: hi all, the reason I talked myself into the position of 'maintainer of default resources' (is that a title like 'floor manager' at mcdonalds?) at the LGM is that I voiced concern over how they can either enhance or sabotage the product vision: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision 1) the default resource is a 'must-have primitive' for the resource type. simply cannot do without it. this is analogous to that a graphics program 'must have' a way to draw squares, rectangles, circles, ellipses, lines. It is ironic that you made this statement, as it is the most often repeated criticism I see made about GIMP (how difficult it is to draw shapes). And this (IMOO) should be a requirement under product vision 'GIMP is a high-end application for producing icons, graphical elements of web pages and art for user interface elements; or 3) the default resource showcases the depths and sophistication of the resource type. the stress here is on being educational and a starting point for users to make their own deep, sophisticated resources. I am not having high hopes for these defaults also to be 'must-have primitive' or 'general purpose, very versatile,' so there is not going to be a lot of them and they better be classy. Keeping a good example of GIH brushes is a necessity here, as it is one of the big features that I keep hearing PS users complain about _not_ having. Keeping the cheese factor down might be the issue. Personally, I'm a big fan of the ivy brush for this. I'd also suggest a bokeh brush might be appropriate here(?) and probably some grunge type brushes which are good for photo-manipulations. What is the status of vector brushes for 2.8? then here some notes for some of the resource types: patterns a first look here tell me that application of the rules above will clear out (almost) the whole section. size matters here, large (thousands instead of 16–128 pix) patterns to avoid visible repetition. Having a small section of halftone/dither patterns would possibly be of value here. I also keep a small 50% grey pattern to quickly build dodge/burn overlay layers when photo retouching. It is faster than having to open up the colour dialog and specifying 50% grey. the one thing I can think of we need pronto is one or more believable film grain patterns for photo manipulation. With resource tagging now a reality, is there any value in maintaining the .pat file type for these, or should they all be .png files with appropriate tags? gradients similar big cull coming Regarding the icon and web creation purpose I'd suggest a number of web 2.0 type gradients, providing gradients the complement what get chosen as default palettes. Please keep in metallic gradients. Regarding photo manipulation, I'd suggest a few cyanotype/duotone/tritone gradients that can be used with the gradient map filter. palettes the websafe/visibone stuff looks really deprecated in 2010. something like the Tango Icon Theme palette is an excellent example of a resource the fits with the product vision (GIMP is Free Software and a high-end application for producing icons). I realize there are restrictions on pantone colours but there any GPL compatible alternatives for spot colours? -Rob A ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On 7/19/10, peter sikking wrote: first of all, resources in GIMP are: - brushes - patterns - gradients - palettes - paint dynamics - tool presets - templates Let me say that the toilet paper one has caused a lot of unhealthy agiotage over the years worldwide :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
I hope you don't deem it inappropriate for a non-developer to input his opinion on a developing issue but I'd like to add that people who are really concerned about what GIMP can not do are certainly not concerned about the set of brushes, patter etc pp. shipped with GIMP. If there is something to work on in, especially the brushes section then it is improving the brush engine to give greater GENERIC flexibility - take a commecrical brush engine as an example - I only know the PS one and I think that's what's needed. Predefined pattern and brushes are useless from a certain extend on. They just bloat the list with things you will never use. As an artist (which I am hardly) I will surely refrain from using an oversized set of patterns and brushes. A decent amount of generic patters and brushes (bitmap) are very good - common things, mostly grain patterns - no one uses apparently repetetive patterns and diffuse irregular brushes which cannot be generated. But then on the brush size, we need far more control over generic brushes. Again, look at PS. On 07/19/2010 07:27 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 7/19/10, peter sikking wrote: first of all, resources in GIMP are: - brushes - patterns - gradients - palettes - paint dynamics - tool presets - templates Let me say that the toilet paper one has caused a lot of unhealthy agiotage over the years worldwide :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Cedric Sodhi man...@gmx.net wrote: size, we need far more control over generic brushes. Again, look at PS. Want to buy me a PS license and a Windows license? You still haven't taken a look at the current development status, have you? -- --Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On 7/19/10, Cedric Sodhi wrote: If there is something to work on in, especially the brushes section then it is improving the brush engine to give greater GENERIC flexibility The brush engine is already actively being worked on. You probably missed all v2.6-v2.7 reviews. Go read them, or, better, try 2.7.1. - take a commecrical brush engine as an example - I only know the PS one and I think that's what's needed. Let's get it straight: are we talking about brush engine before or after CS5? The Photoshop's brush engine *before* CS5 is not much different from the current GIMP's engine. There are not so many missing things in GIMP right now (like dual brush). I know that for sure, because I reverse-engineered brush dynamics in ABR. The Photoshop's brush engine *after* CS5 -- now, that's a whole different thing, because Adobe is now trying to bite a piece of the pie that used to belong to Corel, SAI et al. The GIMP team seems to have agreed that Krita and MyPaint are doing a damn great job there already, so they [GIMP team] aren't going to do natural brushes or media simulation Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gradual zooming!
It wouldn't be that hard to implement a tool that would scale in a way that feels fluid. But I question whether it is worth the effort. It's hard to see what user interaction would be easier with smooth scaling than with scaling in 10% steps. -- Bill ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gradual zooming!
Note: I am currently working toward programming for GEGL methods which apply arbitrary transformations (affine, say) in such a way that a small change in the transformation (which are arbitrary) leads to a small change in the result. I don't know if those necessarily would be those used by the display (they are to become part of the gegl-sampler-*.c family) but if they were, this would allow any increment in zooming, with no jump in the result (although, probably, a jump in the display unless the speed is up to par). Nicolas Robidoux On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Bill Skaggs weska...@gmail.com wrote: It wouldn't be that hard to implement a tool that would scale in a way that feels fluid. But I question whether it is worth the effort. It's hard to see what user interaction would be easier with smooth scaling than with scaling in 10% steps. -- Bill ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On 07/19/2010 05:52 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: That way, the pepper, sun, wine brushes could go under a bitmap tag, but have no default tag attached. That would also make it easier to display just the wanted gradients - several of the gradients shipped with GIMP are used in tiny-fu scripts. Dealing with removal of resources that are used in plug-ins is already handled. Brushes put in $prefix/share/2.0/resource-type/gimp-obsolete-files will be available to plug-ins, but not show up in the UI. / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Automatic tab style and removed tab title bar ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer