Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8

2010-07-19 Thread peter sikking
hi all,

the reason I talked myself into the position of 'maintainer of default
resources' (is that a title like 'floor manager' at mcdonalds?) at the
LGM is that I voiced concern over how they can either enhance or
sabotage the product vision:

http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision

to give a fictive, crass, but clear example: if somebody checks out GIMP
because she is looking for a 'high-end photo manipulation application'
and is confronted by 213 (well-drawn) clown face brushes, then we are
in fact killing the GIMP project.

first of all, resources in GIMP are:
- brushes
- patterns
- gradients
- palettes
- paint dynamics
- tool presets

so what are we looking for for each of these resources? well, apart
from rule nr.1 formulated above (enhance the product vision? in;
sabotage? out) I think it is either

1) the default resource is a 'must-have primitive' for the resource  
type.
simply cannot do without it. this is analogous to that a graphics  
program
'must have' a way to draw squares, rectangles, circles, ellipses, lines.

or

2) the default resource is general purpose, very versatile.
example: a brush to paint grass is _not_. a brush that with some
tweaking and combining can be used to paint grass, hair, fur,
brushed metal and rain _is_.

or

3) the default resource showcases the depths and sophistication of
the resource type. the stress here is on being educational and a
starting point for users to make their own deep, sophisticated
resources. I am not having high hopes for these defaults also
to be 'must-have primitive' or 'general purpose, very versatile,'
so there is not going to be a lot of them and they better be classy.

oh, and talking about classy, there is going to be a 'no cheese rule'.
a Leopard pattern? no no no.

then here some notes for some of the resource types:

patterns
a first look here tell me that application of the rules above will
clear out (almost) the whole section. size matters here, large
(thousands instead of 16–128 pix) patterns to avoid visible repetition.

the one thing I can think of we need pronto is one or more believable
film grain patterns for photo manipulation.

gradients
similar big cull coming

palettes
the websafe/visibone stuff looks really deprecated in 2010.
something like the Tango Icon Theme palette is an excellent example
of a resource the fits with the product vision (GIMP is Free Software
and a high-end application for producing icons).

paint dynamics
paint dynamics are still fully in development, including the
actual functionality. it is not useful at the moment to contribute
paint dynamics presets.

one last thing: we have a green pepper problem. it fails several of
criteria outlined above, but the GIMP team seems to be emotionally
attached to it. similar to the GIMP name, we seem to wear it as a
badge of honour. so I am 50/50 on in/out. this may prove to be
the hardest decision of my career ^}

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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[Gimp-developer] Help a newbie fill in some holes

2010-07-19 Thread Joseph Areeda
I have spent some time investigating this in order to ask intelligent 
questions but I give up, here goes.


I use Gimp for photography and as pre-press for presentations and 
web-sites.  I am retired from a career of medical image processing, so I 
have a history and a library of C++ image manipulation routines.


I would like some new tools in Gimp and I've searched plug-ins and 
scripts.  My first problem is that I am not comfortable that the tools I 
want don't exist rather than I just haven't found them yet.


What I'd like to do is:

   * Rotate by an arbitrary angle.  I've scanned an image but the page
 was not square in the scanner or camera.  The best way to do this
 is to draw a line on the edge of the page and have a command that
 rotates it to horizontal or vertical.  The algorithm is well
 defined and easy (except for indexed color images).
   * Draw arrows and shapes over an image (new vector layer).  I found
 a shape drawing plugin that is fine except you fill in a form
 instead of draw the outline with a cursor, and it doesn't use the
 pen defined in the main window.

My questions:

   * Do plug-ins like this already exist?
   * Would you write these as core, plug-ins, or scripts?

I did download and build 2.7.1 from sources and have a NetBeans project 
working for development, I've been using my compiled version.  I'm 
exploring the sources and while I'm familiar with the algorithms for 
what I want to do, I have a long way to go figuring out where to hook 
in.  I'd appreciate advice on documentation, and source modules to read.


Sorry for the newbie questions to the list.

Joe

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8

2010-07-19 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:49 AM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote:
 hi all,

 the reason I talked myself into the position of 'maintainer of default
 resources' (is that a title like 'floor manager' at mcdonalds?) at the
 LGM is that I voiced concern over how they can either enhance or
 sabotage the product vision:
 (...)

 one last thing: we have a green pepper problem. it fails several of
 criteria outlined above, but the GIMP team seems to be emotionally
 attached to it. similar to the GIMP name, we seem to wear it as a
 badge of honour. so I am 50/50 on in/out. this may prove to be
 the hardest decision of my career ^}

One thing that applies to to the pepper , but may ease the conflict of
what should go in or not:
maybe the default resources could be tagged to default -- and
instead of showing all items at program satrt=up, we could show just
the deffault tagged items.

That way, the pepper, sun, wine brushes could go under a bitmap tag,
but have no default tag attached. That would also make it easier to
display just the wanted gradients - several of the gradients shipped
with GIMP are used in tiny-fu scripts.

(as for the pepper per se, my personal opinion: I have no problem at
all with it going away. I have _one_ real use for it: it helps me to
locate the pixel brush, since it is next to it in alphabetical order.
The pixel brush should, IMHO, be tagged pixel by default, so it
can be found with less keystrokes)


 js
 --
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Help a newbie fill in some holes

2010-07-19 Thread Jon Nordby
On 19 July 2010 17:36, Joseph Areeda are...@gmail.com wrote:
 Rotate by an arbitrary angle.  I've scanned an image but the page was not
 square in the scanner or camera.  The best way to do this is to draw a line
 on the edge of the page and have a command that rotates it to horizontal or
 vertical.  The algorithm is well defined and easy (except for indexed color
 images).
This was brought up recently, in the following thread
http://www.mail-archive.com/gimp-developer%40lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/msg20264.html
See especially the last email.

 Draw arrows and shapes over an image (new vector layer).  I found a shape
 drawing plugin that is fine except you fill in a form instead of draw the
 outline with a cursor, and it doesn't use the pen defined in the main
 window.
See the branch soc-2006-vector-layers in git:
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/refs/heads
IIRC, this has been dropped from the 2.8 schedule due to resource
constraints. Half the gimp
world would probably love the people who finally gets this merged and
polished up.

-- 
Regards Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8

2010-07-19 Thread Rob Antonishen
Thanks for opening this discussion, Peter.

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:49 AM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote:
 hi all,

 the reason I talked myself into the position of 'maintainer of default
 resources' (is that a title like 'floor manager' at mcdonalds?) at the
 LGM is that I voiced concern over how they can either enhance or
 sabotage the product vision:

 http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision


 1) the default resource is a 'must-have primitive' for the resource
 type.
 simply cannot do without it. this is analogous to that a graphics
 program
 'must have' a way to draw squares, rectangles, circles, ellipses, lines.


It is ironic that you made this statement, as it is the most often
repeated criticism I see made about GIMP (how difficult it is to draw
shapes).  And this (IMOO) should be a requirement under product vision
'GIMP is a high-end application for producing icons, graphical
elements of web pages and art for user interface elements;


 or

 3) the default resource showcases the depths and sophistication of
 the resource type. the stress here is on being educational and a
 starting point for users to make their own deep, sophisticated
 resources. I am not having high hopes for these defaults also
 to be 'must-have primitive' or 'general purpose, very versatile,'
 so there is not going to be a lot of them and they better be classy.


Keeping a good example of GIH brushes is a necessity here, as it is
one of the big features that I keep hearing PS users complain about
_not_ having.  Keeping the cheese factor down might be the issue.
Personally, I'm a big fan of the ivy brush for this.

I'd also suggest a bokeh brush might be appropriate here(?) and
probably some grunge type brushes which are good for
photo-manipulations.

What is the status of vector brushes for 2.8?


 then here some notes for some of the resource types:

 patterns
 a first look here tell me that application of the rules above will
 clear out (almost) the whole section. size matters here, large
 (thousands instead of 16–128 pix) patterns to avoid visible repetition.

Having a small section of halftone/dither patterns would possibly be
of value here.

I also keep a small 50% grey pattern to quickly build dodge/burn
overlay layers when photo retouching.  It is faster than having to
open up the colour dialog and specifying 50% grey.


 the one thing I can think of we need pronto is one or more believable
 film grain patterns for photo manipulation.

With resource tagging now a reality, is there any value in maintaining
the .pat file type for these, or should they all be .png files with
appropriate tags?



 gradients
 similar big cull coming

Regarding the icon and web creation purpose I'd suggest a number of
web 2.0 type gradients, providing gradients the complement what get
chosen as default palettes.

Please keep in metallic gradients.

Regarding photo manipulation, I'd suggest a few
cyanotype/duotone/tritone gradients that can be used with the gradient
map filter.



 palettes
 the websafe/visibone stuff looks really deprecated in 2010.
 something like the Tango Icon Theme palette is an excellent example
 of a resource the fits with the product vision (GIMP is Free Software
 and a high-end application for producing icons).

I realize there are restrictions on pantone colours but there any
GPL compatible alternatives for spot colours?



-Rob A
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8

2010-07-19 Thread Alexandre Prokoudine
On 7/19/10, peter sikking wrote:

 first of all, resources in GIMP are:
 - brushes
 - patterns
 - gradients
 - palettes
 - paint dynamics
 - tool presets

- templates

Let me say that the toilet paper one has caused a lot of unhealthy
agiotage over the years worldwide :)

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8

2010-07-19 Thread Cedric Sodhi
I hope you don't deem it inappropriate for a non-developer to input his opinion 
on a developing issue but I'd like to add that people who are really concerned 
about what GIMP can not do are certainly not concerned about the set of 
brushes, patter etc pp. shipped with GIMP. If there is something to work on in, 
especially the brushes section then it is improving the brush engine to give 
greater GENERIC flexibility - take a commecrical brush engine as an example - I 
only know the PS one and I think that's what's needed. Predefined pattern and 
brushes are useless from a certain extend on. They just bloat the list with 
things you will never use. As an artist (which I am hardly) I will surely 
refrain from using an oversized set of patterns and brushes. A decent amount of 
generic patters and brushes (bitmap) are very good - common things, mostly 
grain patterns - no one uses apparently repetetive patterns and diffuse 
irregular brushes which cannot be generated. But then on the brush 
 
size, we need far more control over generic brushes. Again, look at PS.

On 07/19/2010 07:27 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
 On 7/19/10, peter sikking wrote:

 first of all, resources in GIMP are:
 - brushes
 - patterns
 - gradients
 - palettes
 - paint dynamics
 - tool presets

 - templates

 Let me say that the toilet paper one has caused a lot of unhealthy
 agiotage over the years worldwide :)

 Alexandre Prokoudine
 http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8

2010-07-19 Thread Alexia Death
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Cedric Sodhi man...@gmx.net wrote:
 size, we need far more control over generic brushes. Again, look at PS.

Want to buy me a PS license and a Windows license? You still haven't
taken a look at the current development status, have you?

-- 
--Alexia
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8

2010-07-19 Thread Alexandre Prokoudine
On 7/19/10, Cedric Sodhi wrote:

 If there is something to
 work on in, especially the brushes section then it is improving the brush
 engine to give greater GENERIC flexibility

The brush engine is already actively being worked on. You probably
missed all v2.6-v2.7 reviews. Go read them, or, better, try 2.7.1.

 - take a commecrical brush engine as an example - I only know the PS
 one and I think that's what's needed.

Let's get it straight: are we talking about brush engine before or after CS5?

The Photoshop's brush engine *before* CS5 is not much different from
the current GIMP's engine. There are not so many missing things in
GIMP right now (like dual brush). I know that for sure, because I
reverse-engineered brush dynamics in ABR.

The Photoshop's brush engine *after* CS5 -- now, that's a whole
different thing, because Adobe is now trying to bite a piece of the
pie that used to belong to Corel, SAI et al. The GIMP team seems to
have agreed that Krita and MyPaint are doing a damn great job there
already, so they [GIMP team] aren't going to do natural brushes or
media simulation

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Gradual zooming!

2010-07-19 Thread Bill Skaggs
It wouldn't be that hard to implement a tool that would scale in a way that
feels fluid.  But
I question whether it is worth the effort.  It's hard to see what user
interaction would be
easier with smooth scaling than with scaling in 10% steps.

  -- Bill
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Gradual zooming!

2010-07-19 Thread Nicolas Robidoux
Note: I am currently working toward programming for GEGL methods which
apply arbitrary transformations (affine, say) in such a way that a
small change in the transformation (which are arbitrary) leads to a
small change in the result. I don't know if those necessarily would be
those used by the display (they are to become part of the
gegl-sampler-*.c family) but if they were, this would allow any
increment in zooming, with no jump in the result (although,
probably, a jump in the display unless the speed is up to par).

Nicolas Robidoux

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Bill Skaggs weska...@gmail.com wrote:
 It wouldn't be that hard to implement a tool that would scale in a way that
 feels fluid.  But
 I question whether it is worth the effort.  It's hard to see what user
 interaction would be
 easier with smooth scaling than with scaling in 10% steps.

   -- Bill


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Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8

2010-07-19 Thread Martin Nordholts
On 07/19/2010 05:52 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote:
 That way, the pepper, sun, wine brushes could go under a bitmap tag,
 but have no default tag attached. That would also make it easier to
 display just the wanted gradients - several of the gradients shipped
 with GIMP are used in tiny-fu scripts.

Dealing with removal of resources that are used in plug-ins is already 
handled. Brushes put in

   $prefix/share/2.0/resource-type/gimp-obsolete-files

will be available to plug-ins, but not show up in the UI.

  / Martin


-- 

My GIMP Blog:
http://www.chromecode.com/
Automatic tab style and removed tab title bar
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