Re: new gfig [Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options]
Hi Alan, Alan Horkan wrote: On Sun, 14 Nov 2004, David Odin wrote: and as I already said before, using the 2.0 version of gfig would mean to at least port the old version to the HIG standards, I was suggesting shipping the old unmodified version because it was more stable. I just wanted to point out that the 2.0 API is completely backwards compatible from 2.2 to 2.0. That means that you can simply copy the old 2.0 gfig from lib/gimp/2.0/plug-ins to lib/gimp/2.2/plug-ins and it will work just fine. For a user installation, you might want to check, but I believe that plug-ins in the $HOME/.gimp-2.2/plug-ins directory are loaded before the global ones, so copying lib/gimp/2.0/plug-ins/gfig there would do the same job for an unprivileged user. Personally I'm happy to see someone working on gfig. I wasn't aware dindinx was working on it, and given the track record he's built up, I'm sure that the plug-in will be very stable and much more usable in short order. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary, Lyon, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CV: http://dneary.free.fr/CV/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Sven Neumann wrote: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:42:42 +0100 From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options Hi, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'Useless discussion'. Thanks for the encouragement, with that attitude is it any wonder more people dont try and provide feedback and try and improve the gimp. Alan, the discussion became useless after the facts had been exchanged and several people explained you that the feature is indeed useful. That makes further discussions on this topic rather useless. I am still hoping to get more information on how the feature is actually use to try to better solve the problem rather than dwell on the implementation any further. I was unable to get to use the gimp 2.1 series until recently. I cannot provide feedback only when it suits your timetable. When I pointed out problems with 2.0 you gave out to me for not mentioning them during the 1.3 cycle so I am making my points before 2.2 is released. Especially during times of string and UI freeze. All that means it that no changes will be made until after that freeze, not that changes shouldn't be suggested. (I really hope Gfig will be rolled back as the developer working on it has previously suggested, it is definately not ready for 2.2) Sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ Inkscape, Draw Freely http://inkscape.org Free SVG Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, Simon Budig wrote: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 00:41:18 +0100 From: Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options Hi all. Alan Horkan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Sven Neumann wrote: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Given my previous comments that is understandable and I think discoverability is important but it doesn't make sense to have a seperate menu item for every obscure feature and to me this is most definately an obscure feature. It has been requested over and over again so there are certainly people who see a need for it. I never claimed some people wouldn't find it useful. You did however harp on the uselessness of this feature and advocate its removal. Despite numerous people supporting it. Just because you don't see the use of this feature that doesn't mean that it has none. In hindsight I should have been more diplomatic, and I repeated the comment excessively. Perhaps I might have been less quick to complain if it had been only one menu item that shows a dialog but it is not, it is a submenu with several menu items and that seems a lot like clutter to me. It is a submenu, so it is only a single menu entry i dont follow that logic Simple: If a menu entry pops up a dialog or if a menu entry pops up a submenu is irrelevant for the menu itself. It is exactly one menu entry in the menu. It doesn't clutter less or more than a dialog. My counterpoint is that even though a submenu means only one extra menu in the parent menu it means another level and more items to search through. It doesn't make the specific feature any more difficutl to use but more menu items overall can complicate the task of finding anything. I'm not trying very hard to find it, finding problems is relatively easy finding solutions and finding the time to provide feedback in way you will actually listen to is what is time consuming. From my point of view the most things brought up by you are details. While I like attention to the detail I don't like that these things tend to need lots of discussion. The issue here is a perfect example: Configurability of the border color. This discussion should have been over when everybody except you agreed that it is useful. Suddenly about 14 Mails pop up, 5 of these by you not understanding the point of the others. This does not help. As we had started I had hoped to finish and move some way towards improving the feature for those who want it and possibly making it less obtrusive. If the task is to compare an image with a Black Background, a white Background and a Blue background, changing it one at time would be slower than firing off a script that made copies and added a border in a selection of colours (that is just a possible scenario, maybe there is no room for improvement but if I'm not allowed to discuss it I'll never find out). I'll try and show more restraint and not drag out discussions longer in future, I admit I got a little carried away. In other mailing lists normally only those interested in the thread would keep reading and responding to it. - Alan H. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options
Hi, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was unable to get to use the gimp 2.1 series until recently. I cannot provide feedback only when it suits your timetable. When I pointed out problems with 2.0 you gave out to me for not mentioning them during the 1.3 cycle so I am making my points before 2.2 is released. A couple of days before 2.2 is released and a long time after the feature set and the user interface has been frozen. Not a very good timing. But of course we are always open for suggestions. Even though it seems rather useless, let me point you to bug #142996 which was the motivation for changing the canvas padding color user interface in the first place. IMO the new way of doing it is a lot better. You should also note that a lot of thought and work has gone into this. Thus my comment about disrespect. I think that you are ignoring how much attention has been given to the details here. (I really hope Gfig will be rolled back as the developer working on it has previously suggested, it is definately not ready for 2.2) We have another developer working on it at the moment and he's contributing his free time for the task of finishing the changes to GFig that Bill started. This comment of yours (and you did the same comment on gnomedesktop.org) is discouraging, nothing else. Please try to avoid this in the future. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options
On Sat, Nov 13, 2004 at 09:03:28PM +, Alan Horkan wrote: On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, Simon Budig wrote: Alan Horkan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Sven Neumann wrote: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My counterpoint is that even though a submenu means only one extra menu in the parent menu it means another level and more items to search through. It doesn't make the specific feature any more difficutl to use but more menu items overall can complicate the task of finding anything. this is where gimp is at its best though. searching endlessly through the menus for one thing found many many more things i had needed before or had heard of or would be hearing of soon. if it makes sense to you out of the box, you are using software that is beneath your ability. you will soon be in a bleak and terrible life in which everything you know has been done and is very predictible. what is it exactly that you do not like about hunting for things in software? I'll try and show more restraint and not drag out discussions longer in future, I admit I got a little carried away. In other mailing lists normally only those interested in the thread would keep reading and responding to it. hmm, yes. this is really suspicious, isnt it? carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options
On Sat, Nov 13, 2004 at 08:51:26PM +, Alan Horkan wrote:
(I really hope Gfig will be rolled back as the developer working on it has
previously suggested, it is definately not ready for 2.2)
Thanks for your help. AFAIK, I'm the only one really working on gfig
for now. It isn't ready for 2.2, but I'm doing my best to achieve
this. If you have the skills to put a fully debugged, easy to read
and fully HIG compliant version of gfig (even a rolled back version, I
don't care), feel free to provide the sources to us. Until I see this
code, I'll go on with debugging and polishing the existing version.
Regards,
DindinX
--
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i,d,j;main(n,v)char**v;{n=atoi(v[1]);d=atoi(v[2]);{int*r=alloca(5*d+10);char
*q=r+d+2;printf(%d/%d=%d,n,d,n/d);*q=46;*r=n%d;for(;id;i++){r[i+1]=(r[i]*
10)%d;q[i+1]=48+(r[i]*10)/d;for(j=0;ji+1;j++)if(r[i+1]==r[j])return*r=q[j+1
],q[j+1]=0,printf(%s,q),q[j+1]=*r,q[i+2]=0,printf([%s]\n,q+j+1);}}}
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Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Sven Neumann wrote: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:39:58 +0100 From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options Hi, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I can understand how that would require you to change it regularly and why you might want a menu item for it. How did you like how the feature was presented in 2.0 or were you unaware of it until it was given a prominant menu item? Hiding useful functionality in some obscure button with a right-click popup menu in the image corner is not really good user interface design and I am very much surprised that you don't consider this change an improvement. Given my previous comments that is understandable and I think discoverability is important but it doesn't make sense to have a seperate menu item for every obscure feature and to me this is most definately an obscure feature. (most of the time I shrink wrap my images and dont even see the canvas padding, if I wanted to regularly preview images against a black background I would probably configure the Fullscreen mode for that purpose) Perhaps I might have been less quick to complain if it had been only one menu item that shows a dialog but it is not, it is a submenu with several menu items and that seems a lot like clutter to me. We also needed that space in the upper right corner for a more useful and less obscure feature that is also being offered in other applications: linking the image zoom ratio to the window size. That does seem like a good idea of itself but I dont think it makes the menu items for Canvas Padding idea any better than a workaround. I'm surprised that enough users would be changing the setting often enough to want to be able to set it on a once off per window basis, I would have though that a single global preference would to override the toolkit default would have been enough (which is as far as I can go towards offering an alternative implementation). Sincerely Alan Horkan ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options
I'm surprised that enough users would be changing the setting often enough to want to be able to set it on a once off per window basis, I would have though that a single global preference would to override the toolkit default would have been enough oh please no. or is the gimp supposed to be used only by beginners and not by advanced users? if you do some more serious work you need often to change the colour of the surrounding area. and you need it to do by per image basis. if i edit images where colour is really important (and this will be even more useful when gimp will be able to handle colour management) i always set my gui theme to colours of neutral grey so there is no colour distraction + i change this setting in the gimp often to simulate different colour enviroments. the feature is invaluable for an advanced user. a month ago i was making three images to be placed on a wall, each of them on different one, painted with different colour. i was painting them at the same time (they were a series) and i enjoyed the possibilty to see them all against the proper colour. BTW: if you feel that the gimp should be simplified as possible for beginners, wouldnt be possible to keep advanced features visible for advanced users but not for beginners? but not remove them completelly? single option in preferences (or in gimprc file) which would enable more advanced features which some consider as interface clutter but others may need them? ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Jakub Friedl (lists) wrote: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:57:51 +0100 From: Jakub Friedl (lists) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED], GDev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options I'm surprised that enough users would be changing the setting often enough to want to be able to set it on a once off per window basis, I would have though that a single global preference would to override the toolkit default would have been enough oh please no. or is the gimp supposed to be used only by beginners and not by advanced users? That line of reasoning can be used to justify adding a whole lot of crud to the gimp that only really benefits the advanced users. if anything recent development has been removing little used plugins to reduce the maintainance burden. the gimp is the de facto standard for image editing on Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and I'm sure a few others. I there hardly any other piece of graphics software as likely to be available as the gimp. As such is extremely important to cater to ordinary users. I don't want to make the gimp into something that advanced users cannot use quickly and efficiently either, but an uncluttered streamlined user interface should be of benefit to everyone. I wish you would have resited the urge to overreact, all this is just dicussion and although I would prefer not to have the Canvas Padding feature I do not think my suggestions have yet been convincing enough. a month ago i was making three images to be placed on a wall, each of them on different one, painted with different colour. i was painting them at the same time (they were a series) and i enjoyed the possibilty to see them all against the proper colour. I'm still convinced it is a minority feature and although it may be useful I'm not convinced it is useful enough for most users to deserve such prominant location in the menus. Gimp 2.2 seems to be largely decided, and it is unlikely that my suggestion would be taken on board until after 2.2 has been released. BTW: if you feel that the gimp should be simplified as possible for beginners, I believe it should be simplified for everyone, most usability improvements are optimisation of a different kind and just as accessibility benifts more than just the disabled so too should good usability benfit everyone. I'm not arrogant enough to claim I'm an expert, but I thought I should be able to discuss the change before 2.2 and if I didn't do it now I'd probably be berated for not having mentioned it sooner. wouldnt be possible to keep advanced features visible for advanced users but not for beginners? but not remove them completelly? single option in preferences (or in gimprc file) which would enable more advanced features which some consider as interface clutter but others may need them? Did you use Nautilus when it had a Normal mode and an Advanced mode? It was a disaster because most users wanted one or two of the supposedly Advanced features which meant turing on a whole lot of other advanced features. It is better to think of the task and the results you are trying to achieve and see if there is a way to stream line the process. I do not doubt that it is useful for you to have a way to easily compare your image against various backgrounds. What I am asking is if the current implementation is really the best way to provide that feature? You have made it clear that you want to be able to set a different background colour for each image. Do you set different colours for different views of the same image? If so might it not be beter even better to reorganise this functionality in a way that allowed you to more quickly preview an image with various different background rather than having to choose a different back colour each time you wanted to make your comparisions. If you describe in more detail how exactly you go about your work I might be able to refine my suggestions. I'm trying to make things easier for _everyone_ including you :) Sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ Inkscape, Draw Freely http://inkscape.org Free SVG Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options
Hi, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Given my previous comments that is understandable and I think discoverability is important but it doesn't make sense to have a seperate menu item for every obscure feature and to me this is most definately an obscure feature. It has been requested over and over again so there are certainly people who see a need for it. Perhaps I might have been less quick to complain if it had been only one menu item that shows a dialog but it is not, it is a submenu with several menu items and that seems a lot like clutter to me. It is a submenu, so it is only a single menu entry and thus certainly not clutter. It would have been clutter to use a dialog for something that can be easily done using a small submenu. Can we please stop this useless discussion here? I get the impression that you are trying very hard to find something to criticise. Why do you have to show so much disrespect for other people's work? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options
Hi all. Alan Horkan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Sven Neumann wrote: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Given my previous comments that is understandable and I think discoverability is important but it doesn't make sense to have a seperate menu item for every obscure feature and to me this is most definately an obscure feature. It has been requested over and over again so there are certainly people who see a need for it. I never claimed some people wouldn't find it useful. You did however harp on the uselessness of this feature and advocate its removal. Despite numerous people supporting it. Just because you don't see the use of this feature that doesn't mean that it has none. Perhaps I might have been less quick to complain if it had been only one menu item that shows a dialog but it is not, it is a submenu with several menu items and that seems a lot like clutter to me. It is a submenu, so it is only a single menu entry i dont follow that logic Simple: If a menu entry pops up a dialog or if a menu entry pops up a submenu is irrelevant for the menu itself. It is exactly one menu entry in the menu. It doesn't clutter less or more than a dialog. and thus certainly not clutter. It would have been clutter to use a dialog for something that can be easily done using a small submenu. i think a small dialog with all the options in one place would not be any worse than the current setup It would hamper the speed to switch between different settings (menu-selection plus two clicks until you get your desired option vs. one menu-selection) and thus would cause inconvenience. There is no advantage of a dialog. At least I don't see any. Ok, the rest of the Mail are ramblings about discussions and some personal remarks, mostly (but not exclusively) targeted at Alan. I decided to post this into the public because I hope that it might help to avoid personal incidents like this in the future. Can we please stop this useless discussion here? 'Useless discussion'. Sure useless. Many people did state that they like that feature. So far you're the only one who doesn't like it and wants to change it. Each party has stated its position, there is nothing to discuss unless some new facts come into the game. So far there aren't any and prolonging the thread with no arguments doesn't help. [...] I get the impression that you are trying very hard to find something to criticise. I'm not trying very hard to find it, finding problems is relatively easy finding solutions and finding the time to provide feedback in way you will actually listen to is what is time consuming. From my point of view the most things brought up by you are details. While I like attention to the detail I don't like that these things tend to need lots of discussion. The issue here is a perfect example: Configurability of the border color. This discussion should have been over when everybody except you agreed that it is useful. Suddenly about 14 Mails pop up, 5 of these by you not understanding the point of the others. This does not help. [...] What am trying hard to do is discuss ideas and find ways to improve things but you seem unwilling to tolerate polite and resonable discussion, perhaps you expect ideas to come out of nowhere fully formed or implementations to be just right first time. Right now you are discussing a feature you don't use with people who like it. You make a big issue of something that is a non-issue for the other participants. An important part of a polite and reasonable discussion is to know when to stop. Sorry, you missed that point. Why do you have to show so much disrespect for other people's work? Ok, after battering on Alan here's one for Sven: I hate it when you pull out the Disrespect-bat. IMO it is a Totschlagargument and not very helpful. I don't think that exchanging arguments Gimp-related things shows disrespect on the developers. To the contrary: Caring about aspects of the GIMP is a way to show respect. And when you think that a discussion wastes your time, ignore it. Pointing at the opponent and put him in bad light is not helpful for the discussion and it does not even help to stop it. It however helps to prevent future discussions started by people who are more shy but might have brilliant ideas. Pity. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] canvas background options
-- Forwarded message -- From: Laxminarayan Kamath [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:34:51 +0530 Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] canvas background options To: David Odin [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:02:31 +0100, David Odin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, this feature is important to me at least. It is important to have a dark surrounding around a dark image and a light one around a light image, so you can judge the contrast better. Regards, DindinX Hey, Then y not automatically set it to the average of the border upon loading of an image? But some images need the average of whole image, where as some need one with hoghest saturatiuon, another might need the least saturation. what we do is set one of them automatically, say the average of the border and the rest of the results be shown as a choice. and at the end of the choice, will be the cutom color chooser. Whether to do this automatically or not can be added in pref dialog -- Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal MithraKoota, Bhoja Rao Lane, Mangalore 575003 (+91) 9845 061385 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.geocities.com/kamathln ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
