Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Manish Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And it is, when it boils down to it, a cop out fluff answer. Which is Carol's point, that it was a non-answer, and that she expected a better answer, more from a technical perspective. Sure. We all understood this already. It doesn't change the point though that whatever answer was given to whatever GIMP developer about the rationales of the design of the new file chooser widget is not a question that is interesting to our users, nor do any of the GIMP developers really care. It may be an interesting question for Carol but she got to live with whatever answer she has been given and stop harassing everyone for it. Actually I doubt that anyone but Carol is actually surprised about the answer. This topic has been discussed so many times that of course anyone involved has by now made up an answer that is tries to stop the discussion from coming up again. Basically there isn't much that has not yet been said about the new widget. What needs to be done now is to improve it. Of course in order to improve it, you first need to understand the reasons behind the design choices that have been made. There is however plenty of answers on this subject in various mailing list archives and web-pages (such as this one: http://www.gnome.org/~seth/designs/filechooser-spec/). The new file-chooser gives plenty of room for improvements and I am the first one to vote for the addition of a filename entry to it. The way that Carol discusses this topic is however a guaranteed way to drive away each and every developer who might be capable of doing such a change. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, I'm not interested in gnome any way, I'm not interested in arguing anyone about file selectors at appropriate gtk lists. I think this is not gnome's businnes, it is gimp's businnes. If gnome's fileselector is bad, gimp should not. If gnome will be a toy of idiots, gimp should not. And I just dont understand, how is it possible to make a filedialog without filename entry? I dont understand, and I am sad, very sad. Things went wrong. In every aspects. was, Aewyn And yes, I know, I get mightiness's anger on me, but gimp's (!) new fileselector is a piece of crap. You can add my address to your spam assassin. Sorry. ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Aewyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not interested in gnome any way, I'm not interested in arguing anyone about file selectors at appropriate gtk lists. I think this is not gnome's businnes, it is gimp's businnes. If gnome's fileselector is bad, gimp should not. If gnome will be a toy of idiots, gimp should not. You ignore that GIMP 2.1 is not using a GNOME file selection widget. What it uses is the new file chooser that is provided by GTK+, the GIMP toolkit. This new widget solves a lot of problems we had with the old one. The old file selection dialog has been the cause for numerous bug reports and user complaints. Of course not everyone can be satisfied and your mail clearly shows that you don't have much of a clue, let alone respect. But I think that most users will like the new dialog after getting used to it. It took a while for me to get used to it and I first had to create the bookmarks that I need. But now I usually get to my files quicker than I used to do. Only sometimes do I use the entry widget that is bound to Ctrl-L. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Thanks, Really, I'm an outsider in gtk/gnome topic. I just like gimp, and I'm afraid a little bit of gimp starts to leave bazaar concept as seen at gnome. I realized that old fileselector is not too perfect, so I used filemanager's drag and drop to open files. (what is nonsense to open a new app for that reason, but an image viewer is needed for graphics work, because gimp has not such a selector), so I will continue this way (until I learned the new one). Best regards, Aewyn On Tuesday 07 September 2004 12:15, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Aewyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not interested in gnome any way, I'm not interested in arguing anyone about file selectors at appropriate gtk lists. I think this is not gnome's businnes, it is gimp's businnes. If gnome's fileselector is bad, gimp should not. If gnome will be a toy of idiots, gimp should not. You ignore that GIMP 2.1 is not using a GNOME file selection widget. What it uses is the new file chooser that is provided by GTK+, the GIMP toolkit. This new widget solves a lot of problems we had with the old one. The old file selection dialog has been the cause for numerous bug reports and user complaints. Of course not everyone can be satisfied and your mail clearly shows that you don't have much of a clue, let alone respect. But I think that most users will like the new dialog after getting used to it. It took a while for me to get used to it and I first had to create the bookmarks that I need. But now I usually get to my files quicker than I used to do. Only sometimes do I use the entry widget that is bound to Ctrl-L. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Manish Singh wrote: On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 09:55:59PM +0200, David Neary wrote: Getting something to the stage where my grandmother would use it is a proverbial way of describing making technology accessible to a larger public. I am sure this was the sense in which Luis was talking when he said he wanted something his mother could use. That is not the reason things are simplified, but it is a soundbite describing the general goal of opening things up to a larger public. And it is, when it boils down to it, a cop out fluff answer. Which is Carol's point, that it was a non-answer, and that she expected a better answer, more from a technical perspective. This is the essence of the whole issue. The bottom line is, Carol, or anyone else for that matter, deserved a real answer. Perhaps the assumption that making technology accessible to a larger, untrained public should be revisited. There wouldn't be spam if nobody bought from spammers. True. You're not going to please everyone, so you've got to target SOME audience. For example, a reasonable question regarding the change is: will this change benefit the majority of the user base? Sure, it's more complicated then that.. -- Until later, Geoffrey Registered Linux User #108567 ATT Certified UNIX System Programmer - 1995 ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Manish Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And it is, when it boils down to it, a cop out fluff answer. Which is Carol's point, that it was a non-answer, and that she expected a better answer, more from a technical perspective. Sure. We all understood this already. It doesn't change the point though that whatever answer was given to whatever GIMP developer about the rationales of the design of the new file chooser widget is not a question that is interesting to our users, I must respectfully disagree, as a GIMP user, I am most definitely interested in the reason for the change. It may be that I am a developer as well, that prompts me to want to know, but the bottom line is, any time a change is made that seems to be less intuitive (to me), I'm going to wonder and inquire why the change was made. -- Until later, Geoffrey Registered Linux User #108567 ATT Certified UNIX System Programmer - 1995 ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I must respectfully disagree, as a GIMP user, I am most definitely interested in the reason for the change. It may be that I am a developer as well, that prompts me to want to know, but the bottom line is, any time a change is made that seems to be less intuitive (to me), I'm going to wonder and inquire why the change was made. Well, the answer has been given here multiple times already. You did read the relevant threads that have been linked from this thread as well as the design spec that I mentioned yesterday? The answer is in their. So much for the reasoning behind the design of the GtkFileChooser. The reasons for us to switch to the new widget are that one of the major complaints about GIMP 1.2 and GIMP 2.0 was the horrible file selection dialog. The horrible API of the old widget is another reason to abandon it. We believe that the new dialog is an improvement. It works more like what people are used to from other desktop environments and due to the modular nature of the underlying GtkFileSystem it also (potentially) integrates better with whatever desktop you are using. There are a couple of issues with the new dialog but certainly less than there have been with the old one. Some of these issues can and will be fixed in GIMP (for example automatic preview generation), others can (and perhaps will) be fixed at the GTK+ level. Whether the GTK+ developers decide to accept any changes largely depends on the way that they are addressed. Constant bitching will make it very unlikely that any volunteer will want to spend time on this. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Sven, is it possible (in theory) to have several dialog types in GIMP at the same time? OpenOffice under Windows allow using native system openfile dialog or its own style dialog. A user can chhose it in the preferences. If anybody is interested, this could solve this problem at all. One way is to modify GTK+ to add several dialog types. Other is to add new type to GIMP but not to remove old one. -- With respect Alexander Rabtchevich ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Deserving answers (was: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors)
Hi, Quoting Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is the essence of the whole issue. The bottom line is, Carol, or anyone else for that matter, deserved a real answer. This is a misconception. People do not *deserve* answers to whatever question they choose to ask. There are good ways and bad ways to ask a question. The good ways involve a minimum of (1) asking the right person (2) in a way that won't piss them off (3) and waiting for the answer, and (4) reformulating your question if for some reason you're not happy with it (the answer). There's a whole essay that ESR wrote on this called Asking smart questions - a lot of the time I disagree with ESR, but many of the points in this essay are spot on. One of the big no-nos in asking smart questions is not to feel that you have a sense of entitlement. This is, of course, not specifically directed at this thread (thus the topic change), but is a general remark to people who feel they deserve any type of answers to questions they ask. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary Lyon, France ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Alexander Rabtchevich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sven, is it possible (in theory) to have several dialog types in GIMP at the same time? OpenOffice under Windows allow using native system openfile dialog or its own style dialog. A user can chhose it in the preferences. Almost everything is (in theory) possible. The question is if it is feasible and the answer is no. We decorate the file chooser dialog quite a bit and that would not be possible (or rather not feasible) if it wasn't a well-defined dialog with a well-defined API. We don't have the resources to maintain a number of different file dialogs in GIMP (and all it's plug-ins). There are also a couple of features in the new file chooser that simply are not available in the old widget. We will for example want to introduce a virtual filesystem layer in future versions of GIMP. That would allow people to work directly with files on remote filesystems that are accessible over ssh, webdav, ftp, ... This has been requested every so often. The new filechooser supports this kind of stuff by means of the pluggable GtkFileSystem interface. We just need to extend GIMP and its file plug-ins so that they access files by means of a virtual filesystem layer. This could then be implemented for example using gnome-vfs but of course we would want to allow other implementations as well. All this won't work with the old file selection and it shows that your proposal is not feasible. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] kerning
Hi, Aewyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there any way to set letter's kerning in gimp? If you are refering to letter spacing or tracking, here's the relevant bug report: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125483 Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] kerning
Hi, Aewyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: but not really. (kerning means the different space needed between A - V, and V - V; it depends on the used font, but fonts sometimes (always) have erroneus kernings) GIMP uses the kerning tables that come with the fonts. If they are incorrect, I'd say the fonts need fixing then. There's a free font editor (http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/) that you can use. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I must respectfully disagree, as a GIMP user, I am most definitely interested in the reason for the change. It may be that I am a developer as well, that prompts me to want to know, but the bottom line is, any time a change is made that seems to be less intuitive (to me), I'm going to wonder and inquire why the change was made. Well, the answer has been given here multiple times already. You did read the relevant threads that have been linked from this thread as well as the design spec that I mentioned yesterday? The answer is in their. Yes, I did and I do understand the reasoning. I was addressing your statement that: 'It doesn't change the point though that whatever answer was given to whatever GIMP developer about the rationales of the design of the new file chooser widget is not a question that is interesting to our users,' Which I disagreed with. Unfortunately in your followup, you neglected to have it as a part of your response. So much for the reasoning behind the design of the GtkFileChooser. I appreciate you restating the reasoning, but that was not the issue in the post you responded. I know we have beat this to death, but all I'm trying to say is that I believe Carol had a valid question which was not properly, professionally answered. Since I don't use the 2.1 series, I wouldn't see the change until it shows up in 2.2, thus I think it's a good thing that she brought it up. I try to stay on top of these kind of issues, but GIMP is not a tool I use terribly often. -- Until later, Geoffrey Registered Linux User #108567 ATT Certified UNIX System Programmer - 1995 ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] kerning
Sven Neumann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: What GIMP is going to provide (one day) is ways to adjust letter spacing. You can then fix the kerning whereever you think it is wrong. We are however not going to write that info back to the font. Well, Kerning (as in fix up this pair of letters) would be useful as a way to achieve certain typographical effects. It would be wrong to fix this on the font level since it would be a one time application. So support for kerning would be useful but we probably need some support from the pango side to do this. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] kerning
no no no, gimp has no any job with editing fonts, nor writing back any info. But manual kerning is gimp's lesson. As it works in coreldraw, inkscape or other tool. Again: designer's work is making documents with correct kerning pairs, so manual kerning is the job of designer's tool (here it is gimp). And again: fonts is my tools too. I have no license to change any of my tools (except configuration), because it has danger to my work. I'm not allowed editing fonts. Changing fonts can cause a lot of problems to my staff, and of course any of our older work will go trash, because of changed fonts. There is no possibility to change fonts. It is strictly prohibited. No way! Changing a text file with gimp is fast, simple (need just an editor (any editor)) and it belongs to me only. Changed kerning table can be saved with xcf (in comments or in new entry, I dont know). I hope my argument is acceptable. (If not, please ask any professional designer next door to you.) Kerning is alpha and omega of design, and we cannot change any fonts anyhow. thanks, Aewyn On Tuesday 07 September 2004 17:01, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Aewyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Editing fonts doesn't belong to a designer. I can't fix my 2000 fonts. Think, I get a work, start on it, meanwhile appears a font problem. There is no time and possibility to fix it. Just a little hint: there can be a text file, from gimp can get the pair corrections by pairs. When I run into a bad pair, I just take a new entry to it. It is fast and simple, and at first it doesn't need any gui. (By default, there can be an empty file, so filling this table doesn't mean any work to a developer, it can be only a framework). Editing that text file is not going to be any easier or faster than editing the font using the tool I showed you. GIMP is not going to provide ways to fix your fonts since there are tools available for this job and GIMP is not a font editor. What GIMP is going to provide (one day) is ways to adjust letter spacing. You can then fix the kerning whereever you think it is wrong. We are however not going to write that info back to the font. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] 15 million vs 15 hundred
i am interested in corporate backed developers showing respect to volunteer back developers. i am interested in maintaining (or starting) a relationship in which corporate funded developers treat volunteer funded developers equal. my suggestion is that luis apologize for not taking the non-corporate funded developer more seriously. for repentance and to be reminded not to do this again, the offending corporation should reimburse the volunteer funded foundation for the cost of the volunteer to get to the developer meeting. and yes, perhaps one of the smarter and more interested gimp-users out there could whip up a page of statistics to show how unusable the original developer topic (file selector) is. for those of you who have not had classes or experience with statistics. they are nice as you can invent them for whatever your needs are ... carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] kerning
Hi, Aewyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As it works in coreldraw, inkscape or other tool. Again: designer's work is making documents with correct kerning pairs, so manual kerning is the job of designer's tool (here it is gimp). We don't disagree at all except that I think that you are using the term kerning wrongly. What you are asking for is a way to manually adjust letter spacing between individual glyphs. Kerning however is a corrective term for letter spacing that is stored in the font. If you adjust the distance between adjacent glyphs in the text in order to achieve typographical effects (or even to correct incorrect or missing kerning), this isn't called kerning. It's what bug 125483 is all about. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] Re: kerning
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (2004-09-07 at 1733.59 +0200): Kerning is alpha and omega of design, and we cannot change any fonts anyhow. I am with you, and it was explained in the bug the first link references (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120268). Users do not care if Pango can or can not, or if even if the lib is called Pango or Ognap. Users want to adjust pairs when they need, so the image they are working with looks as they want, and that is a case by case problem. So I guess the reply is no kerning in gimp (yet?). GSR ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] kerning
On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 17:01 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote: Editing that text file is not going to be any easier or faster than editing the font using the tool I showed you. GIMP is not going to provide ways to fix your fonts since there are tools available for this job and GIMP is not a font editor. What GIMP is going to provide (one day) is ways to adjust letter spacing. You can then fix the kerning whereever you think it is wrong. We are however not going to write that info back to the font. Having a way to manually tweak kerning is indeed very useful feature, it doesn't always need to relate to badly designed fonts. Personally I would find it a lot more useful in a vector editor, since that's what I would be using for logo design, an area where I see this feature essential. Aewyn, I recommend you open a feature request on this, although convincing Sven of its usefulness is probably a well spent time, because text tool is mostly his effort. cheers -- Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
