Re: [Gimp-user] Documenting Gimp Color Management
On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 03:06 +0100, Axel Wernicke wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I just wanted to let you know that there is already something about the new color management features in the documentation. Feel free to read this - - http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-imaging-color-management.html - - http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-pimping.html#gimp-prefs-color-management - - http://docs.gimp.org/en/glossary.html#glossary-rendering-intent - - http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-imaging-color-management.html and please, don't hesitate to correct what's written or fill the gaps. Everything in there is to my best knowledge but I'm sure it is neither completely correct nor are all necessary topics in there yet. Greetings, lexA I am attaching a second installment of comments as a text file below. I'm afraid the comments come across just as criticisms, so let me emphasize how much I appreciate what you've already done. Ideally, rather than just complaining about this or that, I should suggest how I would phrase it instead. Unfortunately, I don't feel comfortable about writing documentation of this kind yet, so I would rather just raise points and hope you can figure out what I'm saying and include it in the documentation if it seems appropriate. I'm sure you will do a better job of it than I would at this stage. When I feel more comfortable, I will suggest appropriate wording. Also, remember that there are several color management issues and, more important, issues about exactly what gimp does that I find mysterious. So some of my comments might just indicate ignorance or misunderstanding. Even so, I am a relatively experienced gimp user who is Linux savvy and knows something about color management. So if I am confused by something, there is good chance that an average user will also be confused. I would find it easier to understand what gimp is actually doing if I could get at its guts. Instead, I have to do experiments and the results can sometimes be misleading. I've tried several times to look at code, but I've been defeated each time, not by the code, but by the complex structure of the source tree. Any suggestions about how to learn about that without making it my life's work would be appreciated. P.S: as Julien already mentioned - if you feel not comfortable writing docbook xml, just give us plain text to incorporate. - -- Remember: There are only two tools in life. WD-40, for when something doesn't move, and should, and Duct Tape, for when something is moving and it shouldn't. So does the universe explode if you spray duct tape with WD-40? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iD8DBQFHrQqeR9mXLVsAbiQRAntfAJ9FdQqHCMANjDzybGlMrY0tCMq9FACgsXAx AW7MEb5dkf7chKksvIUTc5o= =zTgP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user Gimp color management documentation. Here are some suggestions about the current color management documentation. The general import is that one must be very careful about what you say about what types of profiles may be present and about how they are used. There are many possible variations, and, as best I can tell from experimentation, there is little consistency. 1. In 1.2. Color Managed Workflow, under Input you say : 'Most digital cameras embed a color profile to individual photo files without user interaction.' My Nikon D80 most certainly doesn't embed any profile in normal use. A good guess would be that it has sRGB as a default profile, but I don't know. If I shoot raw using the nef format, then with ufraw I can specify input and output color profiles. I haven't myself figured out exactly what ufraw does with these profiles. I presume it uses the input profile somehow in converting from the raw data to RGB values. It could do different things with respect to the output profile. It could change the RGB values according to the profile and write those out without embedding the profile in the file. Or it could not change the RGB values but embed the profile in the output file. From some experimentation, my guess is the former. I couldn't find any profile in a ufraw output file. (I use iccdump.) I don't argue that what you say may not be true for some digital cameras, but I think it is a stretch to say that most digital cameras do that. 2. You also say 'Digital scanners usually come with a color profile, which they also attach to the scanned images.' I don't know about most digital scanners. I only know what happens with my Epson 3200 which I have used under Linux both with xsane and vuescan. These are the only choices for scanning software that I know of that are available under Linux. Of course, under Windows XP or MacOS, the vendor supplied software may be used in addition to some
Re: [Gimp-user] Documenting Gimp Color Management
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Leonard, Am 09.02.2008 um 17:58 schrieb Leonard Evens: On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 03:06 +0100, Axel Wernicke wrote: ... and please, don't hesitate to correct what's written or fill the gaps. Everything in there is to my best knowledge but I'm sure it is neither completely correct nor are all necessary topics in there yet. I am attaching a second installment of comments as a text file below. I'm afraid the comments come across just as criticisms, so let me emphasize how much I appreciate what you've already done. Ideally, Since I explicitly asked for it, I should (and do) stand that now ;) By now I did not fully examine what you wrote, but I'll do so in the next couple of days. rather than just complaining about this or that, I should suggest how I would phrase it instead. Unfortunately, I don't feel comfortable about writing documentation of this kind yet, so I would rather just raise points and hope you can figure out what I'm saying and include it in the documentation if it seems appropriate. I'm sure you will do a better job of it than I would at this stage. When I feel more comfortable, I will suggest appropriate wording. Well, let it put me this way: your english can't be worse than mine. Unfortunately there are right now 0 (in words: zero) native speaking people in the documentation team - the only reason for me writing english content is that there is no alternative :( ... I would find it easier to understand what gimp is actually doing if I could get at its guts. Instead, I have to do experiments and the results can sometimes be misleading. I've tried several times to look at code, but I've been defeated each time, not by the code, but by the complex structure of the source tree. Any suggestions about how to learn about that without making it my life's work would be appreciated. I most probably can't answer them too. If in doubt we need to ask the devs. Greetings, lexA - --- Remember: There are only two tools in life. WD-40, for when something doesn't move, and should, and Duct Tape, for when something is moving and it shouldn't. So does the universe explode if you spray duct tape with WD-40? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iD8DBQFHrjMcR9mXLVsAbiQRAlj2AJ0WqEC/8XM81gW5SMs4GZaMjpN+zACg9WZF JztRPAqgxQNeHWt7xVA1H1Y= =1fXZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Documenting Gimp Color Management
On Sun, 2008-02-10 at 00:11 +0100, Axel Wernicke wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Leonard, Am 09.02.2008 um 17:58 schrieb Leonard Evens: On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 03:06 +0100, Axel Wernicke wrote: ... and please, don't hesitate to correct what's written or fill the gaps. Everything in there is to my best knowledge but I'm sure it is neither completely correct nor are all necessary topics in there yet. I am attaching a second installment of comments as a text file below. I'm afraid the comments come across just as criticisms, so let me emphasize how much I appreciate what you've already done. Ideally, Since I explicitly asked for it, I should (and do) stand that now ;) By now I did not fully examine what you wrote, but I'll do so in the next couple of days. rather than just complaining about this or that, I should suggest how I would phrase it instead. Unfortunately, I don't feel comfortable about writing documentation of this kind yet, so I would rather just raise points and hope you can figure out what I'm saying and include it in the documentation if it seems appropriate. I'm sure you will do a better job of it than I would at this stage. When I feel more comfortable, I will suggest appropriate wording. Well, let it put me this way: your english can't be worse than mine. Unfortunately there are right now 0 (in words: zero) native speaking people in the documentation team - the only reason for me writing english content is that there is no alternative :( Your English is fine. My concerns about my writing documentation are more basic than that. I'm worried that were I to write documentation, I might make it so complicated it would be useless. It is question of deciding how to put things so people can understand it easily but aren't led astray by having things be oversimplified. But give me some time. I've lots of experience explaining complex matters to generations of mathematics students, and some of that may carry over. I would be happy to be the resident native speaker of English. I haven't seen any problems of that nature yet, but should I find any, I will be happy to correct them. ... I would find it easier to understand what gimp is actually doing if I could get at its guts. Instead, I have to do experiments and the results can sometimes be misleading. I've tried several times to look at code, but I've been defeated each time, not by the code, but by the complex structure of the source tree. Any suggestions about how to learn about that without making it my life's work would be appreciated. I most probably can't answer them too. If in doubt we need to ask the devs. Greetings, lexA - --- Remember: There are only two tools in life. WD-40, for when something doesn't move, and should, and Duct Tape, for when something is moving and it shouldn't. So does the universe explode if you spray duct tape with WD-40? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iD8DBQFHrjMcR9mXLVsAbiQRAlj2AJ0WqEC/8XM81gW5SMs4GZaMjpN+zACg9WZF JztRPAqgxQNeHWt7xVA1H1Y= =1fXZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Documenting Gimp Color Management
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I just wanted to let you know that there is already something about the new color management features in the documentation. Feel free to read this - - http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-imaging-color-management.html - - http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-pimping.html#gimp-prefs-color-management - - http://docs.gimp.org/en/glossary.html#glossary-rendering-intent - - http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-imaging-color-management.html and please, don't hesitate to correct what's written or fill the gaps. Everything in there is to my best knowledge but I'm sure it is neither completely correct nor are all necessary topics in there yet. Greetings, lexA P.S: as Julien already mentioned - if you feel not comfortable writing docbook xml, just give us plain text to incorporate. - -- Remember: There are only two tools in life. WD-40, for when something doesn't move, and should, and Duct Tape, for when something is moving and it shouldn't. So does the universe explode if you spray duct tape with WD-40? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iD8DBQFHrQqeR9mXLVsAbiQRAntfAJ9FdQqHCMANjDzybGlMrY0tCMq9FACgsXAx AW7MEb5dkf7chKksvIUTc5o= =zTgP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Documenting Gimp Color Management
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Am 09.02.2008 um 04:47 schrieb Leonard Evens: On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 03:06 +0100, Axel Wernicke wrote: and please, don't hesitate to correct what's written or fill the gaps. Everything in there is to my best knowledge but I'm sure it is neither completely correct nor are all necessary topics in there yet. ... I haven't yet had a chance to thoroughly examine what you've done, but I plan to soon, and I will come up with additional comments. That is what I'm hoping for Let me start by bringing up one issue, which it took me a long time to get straight, and which at first glance I didn't find in what you did. I'll describe it below as best I can. I don't know how or where to incorporate it in the documentation, particularly since some of it seems to be operating system dependent. I do think it is important so I hope you will fit it in, perhaps in an easier to understand simplified form. I'll try read, understand and include that into the docs. ... In this connection, let me say that I think it is a mistake to prepare the documentation as if Linux users were odd balls who should be using XP or MacOS. Whops! - Did we do this? I think most members of the documentation team are even working on Linux. The manual should of course not discriminate any operating system or their user base. Please let the documentation team know about such in detail by telling us and giving a reference to the page in question (as http://docs.gimp.org/en/...) Greetings, lexA - --- Live is like a chocolate box, you never know what you wanna get... GPG Signatur auf http://wernicke-online.net/Impressum/ prüfen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iD8DBQFHrV0ZR9mXLVsAbiQRAvKBAKDTvIES8OWxn1Yn34lV18rAx/O01gCgz66L jkn2SHt2PFhCS2/K/8FmnYI= =rD95 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] Documenting Gimp Color Management
I am contemplating writing a tutorial on gimp color management. I'm not sure I know enough yet to do it, but I suppose someone has to begin. It would help me a lot if I could actually examine the code to see what gimp is doing. Otherwise I have to keep running experiments, and aside from being time consuming, it sometimes gives misleading or inconsistent results, particularly since my understanding of color management detail still has some gaps. At various times in the past, I've tried to delve into gimp code to see what it does, but it is not an easy task for someone who may be familiar with C but has not worked with the complex development tree. Anything along those lines that would help would be appreciated. -- Leonard Evens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mathematics Department, Northwestern University ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Documenting Gimp Color Management
Hi, On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 13:43 -0600, Leonard Evens wrote: I am contemplating writing a tutorial on gimp color management. I'm not sure I know enough yet to do it, but I suppose someone has to begin. I am sure the gimp-docs team would love to get a chapter on color management for the user manual. Perhaps you want to coordinate your effort with them. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Documenting Gimp Color Management
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 21:25 +0100, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 13:43 -0600, Leonard Evens wrote: I am contemplating writing a tutorial on gimp color management. I'm not sure I know enough yet to do it, but I suppose someone has to begin. I am sure the gimp-docs team would love to get a chapter on color management for the user manual. Perhaps you want to coordinate your effort with them. Sven I would be happy to do that, but I don't know how. I checked the Gimp documentation Developer's web page, and figuring out how to join in looks like an imposing task. I understand why that is necessary for such a project, but at my age I'm not sure I'm ready to master a whole new framework and set of skills, e.g., using XML. It was hard enough mastering the basics of color management and how to use profiling tools, and I still haven't figured out all of that. I think I will prepare a simple tutorial, explaining what I know and let anyone make any use of it that they may. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Documenting Gimp Color Management
Leonard Evens a écrit : I would be happy to do that, but I don't know how. I checked the Gimp documentation Developer's web page, and figuring out how to join in looks like an imposing task. I understand why that is necessary for such a project, but at my age I'm not sure I'm ready to master a whole new framework and set of skills, e.g., using XML. It was hard enough mastering the basics of color management and how to use profiling tools, and I still haven't figured out all of that. I think I will prepare a simple tutorial, explaining what I know and let anyone make any use of it that they may. Hi, Help on how using profiling tools is very welcome. You can write a normal text and send it me: I'll transform it to XML. Julien ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Documenting Gimp Color Management
Hi, On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 06:58 +0100, julien wrote: Leonard Evens a écrit : I think I will prepare a simple tutorial, explaining what I know and let anyone make any use of it that they may. That will be very much welcomed. Help on how using profiling tools is very welcome. Since GIMP doesn't include any profiling tools, it would be out of scope of the user manual to explain how to use them. A decent documentation on the color management features in 2.4 is what is really needed at this point. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
