Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest, Open Save dialog
Hi, Olivier Ripoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From what I can gather of reading the mailing-lists for users, developers and windows port, while the gimp own part of the interface as much improved in the last years (preview for plugin / docks / window management / image window top-menu), the compliance to the HIG has raised a lot of bitterness in the community. Can you please stop spreading this nonsense? The GNOME Human Interface Guidelines (HIG) have not much, if anything, to do with the way the file chooser dialog looks and feels. Please read the guidelines before you talk about them. Making GIMP more HIG compliant has led to more consistent and more pleasantly looking dialogs and has substantially improved the usability of the application. I have not yet heard any valid complaints about this step. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest, Open Save dialog
Hi, Olivier Ripoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1- the absence of the keyboard navigation with tab completion that was in 1.x. This can be actually activated by CTRL-L but no-one can actually find this shortcut naturally, so everyone will at least complain once about it. Also, the file name completion is different from before, and some may find it less practical but this is very subjective (I preferred the old one, and I think tab should definitely be used for file-name completion to have a consistent interface). The new dialog IMO has better keyboard navigation than the old one. It is just different. And no, I am not speaking about the Ctrl-L dialog. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest, Open Save dialog
Von: Olivier Ripoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] From what I can gather of reading the mailing-lists for users, developers and windows port, while the gimp own part of the interface as much improved in the last years (preview for plugin / docks / window management / image window top-menu), the compliance to the HIG has raised a lot of bitterness in the community. Can you please stop spreading this nonsense? The GNOME Human Interface Guidelines (HIG) have not much, if anything, to do with the way the file chooser dialog looks and feels. Please read the guidelines before you talk about them. Making GIMP more HIG compliant has led to more consistent and more pleasantly looking dialogs and has substantially improved the usability of the application. I have not yet heard any valid complaints about this step. Complaints about the dialogue pop up every single month on the 3 mailing lists I have mentioned. You can refuse to read them, but then do not accuse people who read them to mention them when specifically ask to in a thread. You're claiming that the GIMP UI has improved, but following the HIG wasn't something that was welcomed in the community. But following the HIG was what has caused the improvements. Your claim, as written here, is quite generic, and it seems like you totally disagree with it. You should be more specific about the things you disagree with. HTH, Michael -- Bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten sparen: GMX SmartSurfer! Kostenlos downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest, Open Save dialog
On Fri, 2006-03-03 at 14:36 +0100, Olivier Ripoll wrote: a) the need of an obscure key combo to access the file completion navigation. There is no key combo to access file completion. Just start typing. b) the fact that the folder navigation (and perhaps) the file type chooser are not directly accessible. Can you elaborate on this a little? I don't think I understand this one. cheers -- Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell, Inc. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest, Open Save dialog
Hi, Olivier Ripoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Complaints about the dialogue pop up every single month on the 3 mailing lists I have mentioned. You can refuse to read them, but then do not accuse people who read them to mention them when specifically ask to in a thread. The only point that I have a problem with is that you make the Human Interface Guidelines responsible for the design of the file chooser. I don't see how the two are related except perhaps for small details like the amount of padding around the action buttons. The other problem is that this is the wrong list to discuss file chooser issues. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest, Open Save dialog
Von: Olivier Ripoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] I disagree with your interpretation of my messages. :) Please keep in mind the reason for my messages: One person asked for points he could discuss/investigate for an article about the UI. I suggested to show the improvements for previous version. Then I was asked what were the points still generating complaints. I listed what are the two most frequent one in my opinion. PS: And in case it is not clear after me writing it 4 times now: The Gimp UI has improved since 1.2.x. Unfortunately you excluded the HIG issue in your reply. As you point out, this is most likely becoming the source for an article about the GIMP GUI. Should it then be that easy to get to a totally different interpretation of your message? I doubt that someone who doesn't know the HIG and the changes in the GIMP GUI that were caused by following these guidelines is able to understand your message correctly. The one issue you're complaining about is the file chooser - I know why you're doing this, I did so myself initially (I have changed my opinion in the meantime). But you made it sound like following HIG is a bad thing in general - I think it wasn't your intention, but as I wrote before, you avoided to give a straight answer to this yet. HTH, Michael -- Echte DSL-Flatrate dauerhaft für 0,- Euro*! Feel free mit GMX DSL! http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest, Open Save dialog
Hi, Olivier Ripoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed. You are right. This is recent, isn't it? No, this has been the case starting with the very first version of the file chooser. And I keep pointing people to it over and over again. However, there is no visual hint that typing the filename will do something. Sure, discoverability of this feature is somewhat poor. But most GTK+ tree and list views allow to be navigated using typeahead. The file-chooser behaves consistently. Sure. It would be welcome that the select file type and browse for other folders be opened by default. Or that they would remember they last state or that this option could be selected by the user. When do you need to use Select file type? Perhaps we should just remove it, but then there are some very rare cases where it is needed. A solution would be to ask the user for the file-type in case it cannot be determined automatically. That would effectively move the file-type selection to an extra dialog that most users would never see. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest, Open Save dialog
Hi, Olivier Ripoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And why are the dialogues for icm/icc profile selection (unstable gimp) and folders in the preferences using a different file selector (no file type drop-down, different window sizes) ? Sure it could be made more consistent. This is so silly. Why should a folder selection dialog have a file type drop-down and why should the dialog care about the size you have last used on your File-Open dialog? Please ignore the color profile choosers. They are supposed to be replaced by something completely different. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest - Open Save dialog
George Farris wrote: Indeed. You are right. This is recent, isn't it ? What is the use of CTRL-L now ? However, there is no visual hint that typing the filename will do something. Having the text entry field would make it clear. Not to put to fine a point on it but almost very application out there including GIMP has key combos that are not visible. Of course they do, and I don't think anyone objects to having them. The problem is that you need to use an undocumented and very non-obvious procedure to accomplish something that was easy and obvious before. The GTK team deserves credit for taking up the considerable challenge of making a more usable desktop. But in this case they've blown it: they fixed something that IMHO was not broken, for the sake of the non-technical users they hope to attract to the GNOME platform, and at the expense of *actual* users who, for the most part, have no trouble typing /path/to/whatever and would like to be able to do so with a minimum of fuss. -- Matt Gushee The Reluctant Geek: http://matt.gushee.net/rg/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest - Open Save dialog
Hi, Matt Gushee [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The GTK team deserves credit for taking up the considerable challenge of making a more usable desktop. But in this case they've blown it: they fixed something that IMHO was not broken, for the sake of the non-technical users they hope to attract to the GNOME platform, and at the expense of *actual* users who, for the most part, have no trouble typing /path/to/whatever and would like to be able to do so with a minimum of fuss. Have you ever tried to type /path/to/whatever into a GTK+ file-chooser dialog? Can there be any less fuss? Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest - Open Save dialog
Sven Neumann wrote: they fixed something that IMHO was not broken, for the sake of the non-technical users they hope to attract to the GNOME platform, and at the expense of *actual* users who, for the most part, have no trouble typing /path/to/whatever and would like to be able to do so with a minimum of fuss. Have you ever tried to type /path/to/whatever into a GTK+ file-chooser dialog? Can there be any less fuss? You mean GTK2? Okay, now I see that it works. But people like me who have been using GUIs since the mid-80s are accustomed to having a text entry widget to type into. When there is no such widget, people ... well, I don't know about 'people', but I tend to assume that text input is not allowed. So maybe the new dialog isn't so bad after all ... but how are users supposed to know they can type in a path? -- Matt Gushee The Reluctant Geek: http://matt.gushee.net/rg/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest - Open Save dialog
One other nit-pick: I can't just paste text for the path, I have to start typing first then I can paste. With a text widget, well, the path acts like any other text. Matt Gushee wrote: Sven Neumann wrote: they fixed something that IMHO was not broken, for the sake of the non-technical users they hope to attract to the GNOME platform, and at the expense of *actual* users who, for the most part, have no trouble typing /path/to/whatever and would like to be able to do so with a minimum of fuss. Have you ever tried to type /path/to/whatever into a GTK+ file-chooser dialog? Can there be any less fuss? You mean GTK2? Okay, now I see that it works. But people like me who have been using GUIs since the mid-80s are accustomed to having a text entry widget to type into. When there is no such widget, people ... well, I don't know about 'people', but I tend to assume that text input is not allowed. So maybe the new dialog isn't so bad after all ... but how are users supposed to know they can type in a path? -- Rob Russell http://rr.latenightpc.com/wp/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp-user Digest, Open Save dialog
Specifically I don't like the ctrl-L thing to type a path in - I frequently use a file browser or shell that I can copy a path from and paste into the open dialog of most applications I use. Until last month I didn't even know about the ctrl-L option. In a more philosophical sense I don't like that it's different from the rest of the file open/save dialogs on the OSes that I use. I use KDE and Windows and I love that I can get the Gimp in both. I don't like that in both of those environments I have this application that acts differently to do the same job. It's not just the Gimp, I have the same complaint about the File Open/Save in Blender3d and all those Windows apps that think Open/Save needs to be redone. PS: It seems hard to discuss this kind of issue without starting a war, but please read all my statements in the friendliest (but not, of course, sarcastic) voice that you can imagine ;-) George Farris wrote: On Thu, 2006-02-03 at 12:00 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the other hand, the new GTK open/save dialogue has been subject to many critics, in Gnome and in Gimp. Gimp developers have tried to implement fixes for most of the annoyances. But the dialogue is still quite bothering. However, the blame is to be put on the gnome HIG, not on Gimp developers. Just my 0.02 euro cents, as a user. I love the open/save dialogue. What specifically are people having trouble with? Having the places tied into these dialogs is great and I can add remove these "bookmarks" as I like. Is it the functionality or the UI? PS: This is just curiosity I'm not trying to start a war. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user -- Rob Russell http://rr.latenightpc.com/wp/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
