Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Catallaxy]

Ludovic Courtès  wrote:

> So it really isn’t about what
> “the media” said last week or the week before.

If this is the case then the timing of this move is really very unfortunate. If 
this is a decision many years in the making then it seems hard to imagine a 
worse time to publicly act on it than in the midst of the shockingly unfair 
media pile-on that RMS has been subjected to recently. Anyone looking from 
outside is of course going to conclude that this action is directly related to 
the recent and widely publicized public lynching of RMS and not a reaction to 
other past issues that have not been publicly discussed or disclosed.

> We must keep it striving and reach
> out to those who’ve not yet joined us to share the software!

If it somehow was not clear to you before that this action would drive some 
people away (including people who already are firmly aligned with the true 
values of the free software movement) then it should be apparent now. The only 
reason I'm commenting is to add a voice to emphasize this in the hope that if 
you failed to realize you would alienate people (which seems to be the opposite 
of your stated aim) that you will realize it now and reconsider your approach.

Freedom has many powerful enemies and I can't have confidence in GNU's ability 
to stand up to enemies like nation states and global corporations if it is led 
by people who can't even stand up to a rabid twitter mob and a bunch of agenda 
driven journalists spreading lies and misrepresentations.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Quiliro Ordóñez]

* Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other
information, on the basis that such material is considered
objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient".

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi Stefan,

[- help-guix]

> Is Guix a political Project now?

The GNU project has always been a political project.  Guix is part of
GNU.

--
Ricardo

Re: Overhauling the cargo-build-system

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello!

Efraim Flashner  skribis:

> I'd like to challenge the assumption that packages are both libraries
> and source. A 'library' in rust compiles into one of three types: a
> static library (libfoo.a), a shared library (libfoo.so), or a
> 'rust-library' (libfoo.rlib).

Why don’t we create .so files, then?  They have NEEDED and RUNPATH, so
that could work like for C, no?

> Let me repeat that. We have 192 rust packages that no one needs or
> wants, except in source form.

Ouch!  So the rlib file is never actually used?!

You said “it is not possible to link an rlib to another rlib”, but
that’s not necessarily a problem, it’s like .a libraries, no?

> PROPOSAL:
> Change all the rust packages we have now to be source-only. Rename them
> from rust-foo to rust-foo-src or rust-src-foo.

In the current scheme, can you actually do, say:

  guix environment --ad-hoc rust rust-foo rust-bar

and then (pseudo syntax):

  rustc mystuff.rust -lfoo -lbar

?

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi Mikhail,

Mikhail Kryshen  skribis:

> I'm deeply disappointed to see this.  I always thought that the free
> software community have strong and independent culture, and it's very
> sad to see GNU maintainers, for whose work I have great respect, fall
> for the moral panic that is being spread by news and social media

[...]

> This leads to dissolution of the free software culture and its
> ethical values with the influence of media and corporations that are
> hostile towards software freedom.

I respectfully think that your interpretation is incorrect.

Keep in mind that each of the signatories has typically more than 10
years of experience as developer or maintainer of GNU (more than that
for some.)  They have dedicated a large part of their life to that, and
they have worked a lot with GNU and RMS.  So it really isn’t about what
“the media” said last week or the week before.

Perhaps you find our decision hard to understand, or perhaps you
disagree with it, but remember that we have a different perspective.

RMS created GNU, but GNU has long expanded beyond RMS, and free software
has expanded way beyond GNU, too.  We must keep it striving and reach
out to those who’ve not yet joined us to share the software!

Ludo’.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[František Kučera]

Dne 09. 10. 19 v 10:56 Andy Wingo napsal(a):
> https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu
>
> the best thing that he could do for GNU is to stop pretending to run 
> things, to instead declare victory and retire to an emeritus role.

Of course, one day he will have to retire and have to pass on his
follower, who should continue on that uncompromising journey.

But today is a wrong day for such step and asking him to do it now is a
very bad thing which undermines free software movement. Today he needs
our support, regardless your opinions on his leadership or other various
topics. If he would have done it two months ago, it would be OK. If he
would do it year or two later, it would be OK. But not now.

FSF (and thus also GNU) was under massive attack from the outside. Lot
of nasty things happened during past weeks, lot of lies and really bad
journalism (or rather „journalism“), disgusting comments on Twitter and
other social networks. It is a pure Evil and we must not retreat. FSF
must prove that it is an independent and sovereign organization and
reject such attacks and reject such requests and threats. Only this way
it can preserve its moral credit and stay trustworthy organization.

Franta

Reminder to remain civil

[Ricardo Wurmus]

ng0  writes [something]

Please keep the language here civil.  We don’t need more anger on our
lists.  If you feel frustrated, please take some time off email and (for
example) enjoy the local manifestation of autumn in your physical
environment.  It is of no use to escalate by venting here.

Thanks.

--
Ricardo

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi Thorsten,

Thorsten Wilms  skribis:

> I don't get what made you guys start Guix as GNU project, if you have
> such an issue with Stallman (which I do understand)?

GNU is not about Stallman, it’s about building a free operating system.
These are idea(l)s I and others here very much support.

I hope this clarifies the situation.

Ludo’.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Svante Signell]

On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 03:11 +0530, Arun Isaac wrote:
> > For what it is worth, I have some personal answers to some of these
> > questions here:
> > 
> >   https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu
> 
> I largely agree with the thoughts you have expressed in this blog
> post. I think the original joint statement on the Guix blog should
> articulate these ideas in a similar way. The way the statement stands
> right now, it is too vague and open to misinterpretation.

I've also read Andy Wingos blog, and he has some very good points
there. Nevertheless, the statement on the GNU project should not have
been published on the guix-devel mailing list, rather gnu-system-
discuss. And the timing is very bad, in the light of RMS being hunted
by social media non-journalists, causing him to FSF and MIT, it is
extremely harmful for Free Software Development in general. Please,
moderate yourselves (all of you), please!
 

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Arun Isaac]

> For what it is worth, I have some personal answers to some of these
> questions here:
>
>   https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu

I largely agree with the thoughts you have expressed in this blog
post. I think the original joint statement on the Guix blog should
articulate these ideas in a similar way. The way the statement stands
right now, it is too vague and open to misinterpretation.

Regards,
Arun.


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Re: 'core-updates' Q4 2019

[Svante Signell]

On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 16:32 +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Mathieu, I guess you can go ahead and rename ‘core-updates-next’ to
> ‘core-updates’ if nobody’s done it yet.
> 
> Let’s get the ball rolling!

What's the status of the GNU/Hurd port with this core-updates release,
better or worse?

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Vasya Boytsov]

I kindly ask to remove this statement from the Guix site. It's
inappropriate, it's poisonous for the community (you can see this
clearly now). Anyone can have their own opinion in this discussion,
but _PLEASE_ can we divide OS development and politics?
There are more appropriate places to post such statements. Having this
post on a _Guix_ website is very bad for community health.
I want to continue using Guix and contribute some packages, but with
such a political involvement I can't.

On 10/10/19, Wilson Bustos  wrote:
> P,
>> And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to
> get into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
> defend him from any criticism.
> So, why didn't you do anything before? why now? If it was a real issue that
> would happen in before, not now.
>
>> Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
> founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
> final say in everything.
> I think that is not the problem, no one is perfect, that is why no one
> needs to be perfect to represent a group as GNU, then, RMS doesn't need to
> be removed because he is not perfect, right?
> Also, why use the official Guix website to show that statement, there is a
> vote of all the members to do that?
>
> p.s: I'm sorry for text this also, but I don't believe in a SJW speech.
>
> p.s2: A social network text message proof of nothing.
>
>
>
> El jue., 10 oct. 2019 a las 17:33, P () escribió:
>
>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On Thursday, October 10, 2019 7:22 PM, Jean Louis 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If
>> > > you
>> > > don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is
>> > > the
>> > > appropriate mailing list.
>> >
>> > I don't mind.
>> >
>> > Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix
>> pages.
>>
>> This is what they actually said: "GNU is not fulfilling its mission when
>> the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we want to
>> reach
>> out to."
>>
>> Which is true, and the funny thing is, it's true by your own admission as
>> well. You said that people attacked RMS for his statement. What is that
>> if
>> not alienation?
>> I've seen people publicly state that they'll cancel their membership and
>> donate to Conservancy instead of FSF.
>> And there is this thread by a free software developer who helped draft
>> GPLv3 [1].
>>
>> As far as I can tell, you have not disproven those statements, so I can
>> only conclude that you either were not aware of them, which would mean
>> that
>> you did not actually look into the problem as deeply as you would want us
>> to believe, or that you were aware of them, but dismissed them as
>> insignificant, which would reflect badly on your value system.
>>
>> And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to
>> get
>> into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
>> defend him from any criticism.
>>
>> Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
>> founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
>> final say in everything.
>>
>> ps.: sorry for writing this on the devel list, but there is so much
>> vitriol against the core devs here already that I felt like I had to
>> counterbalance it.
>>
>> [1]: https://pleroma.site/notice/9nh9bWH6RbrQinMp1M
>>
>>
>


-- 

Respectfully,
Boytsov Vasya

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

On October 10, 2019 8:29:06 PM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jean Louis  wrote:
>> How are you?
>
>Ehm...  Fine.  What is the occasion to ask?

We are then from different cultures simply. At my side it is always used 
similarly as hand shaking.

>> I [] see absolutely no problem there.
>
>I’m afraid, Dr. Stallman would see.

My protest is not to align all my thoughts with Dr. Stallman, my protest is 
that defamation and harassment of RMS is taking place on Guix.GNU.org website.

It is the code of good conduct of Guix itself where they promised harass-free 
space with respect to other people's opinions. See: 
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/CODE-OF-CONDUCT

Writing policies while abusing them themselves is hypocrisy and this time it is 
bad enough that caused international online protests.

>> What is point in backstabbing of RMS? I asked and never got answers
>but FUD.
>
>To get rid of him, of course.  Why to ask for obvious answer?

Well I don't see it that way. I see it as a hostile fact-less thought police 
punishing and degrading GNU, Guix, FSF and RMS for the thought crime. See the 
book 1984

>Many of your letters contain a footer with a call for lead developers
>of Guix, Guile and GnuPG to leave GNU. 

Exactly. That is my opinion. If myself cannot agree with my own community's 
published  coffee of conduct and the founder and if I am to abuse the platform 
given to me by founder and his work to abuse his image and defame him, then I 
would never do that, I would step down.

Reason that they don't have guts is all the comfort they got from FSF and GNU 
which is, was and is being caused by RMS.

Comfort like this 
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2018/gnu-guix-receives-donation-from-the-handshake-project/
 is hard to resist to get their things straight.

>> They have no respect for RMS.
>
>I hope, that you have, though.  And thus will stop to tear down the
>project he founded.

I have never protested against the GNU project as in itself it cannot cause 
actions. My protest is not against Ludovic Courtès's opinion neither their free 
speech, despite all of their efforts to silence every protestors' voice. See 
their logs for evidences of the plot.

My protest is against defamation of founder of the GNU project and on the GNU 
project's domain!

If Ludovic Courtès would publish it on his website I could probably comment on 
his own website. But he did not. By the way I did not find one mention of Dr. 
Stallman on his pages. Think about that and proper crediting.

Ludovic Courtès published it on Guix website hosted on GNU domain. I am 
objecting to that. And I am not alone, there are already hundreds supporting 
comments from all over the world, podcast and defenses, I am not alone thinker 
and please don't turn my words to something what I have not stated. Same 
strategy was used to defame Stallman. And same was used by Ludovic Courtès on 
their disrespectful statement.

Jean 

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Wilson Bustos]

P,
> And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to
get into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
defend him from any criticism.
So, why didn't you do anything before? why now? If it was a real issue that
would happen in before, not now.

> Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
final say in everything.
I think that is not the problem, no one is perfect, that is why no one
needs to be perfect to represent a group as GNU, then, RMS doesn't need to
be removed because he is not perfect, right?
Also, why use the official Guix website to show that statement, there is a
vote of all the members to do that?

p.s: I'm sorry for text this also, but I don't believe in a SJW speech.

p.s2: A social network text message proof of nothing.



El jue., 10 oct. 2019 a las 17:33, P () escribió:

> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Thursday, October 10, 2019 7:22 PM, Jean Louis 
> wrote:
>
> > > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
> > > don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
> > > appropriate mailing list.
> >
> > I don't mind.
> >
> > Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix
> pages.
>
> This is what they actually said: "GNU is not fulfilling its mission when
> the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we want to reach
> out to."
>
> Which is true, and the funny thing is, it's true by your own admission as
> well. You said that people attacked RMS for his statement. What is that if
> not alienation?
> I've seen people publicly state that they'll cancel their membership and
> donate to Conservancy instead of FSF.
> And there is this thread by a free software developer who helped draft
> GPLv3 [1].
>
> As far as I can tell, you have not disproven those statements, so I can
> only conclude that you either were not aware of them, which would mean that
> you did not actually look into the problem as deeply as you would want us
> to believe, or that you were aware of them, but dismissed them as
> insignificant, which would reflect badly on your value system.
>
> And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to get
> into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
> defend him from any criticism.
>
> Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
> founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
> final say in everything.
>
> ps.: sorry for writing this on the devel list, but there is so much
> vitriol against the core devs here already that I felt like I had to
> counterbalance it.
>
> [1]: https://pleroma.site/notice/9nh9bWH6RbrQinMp1M
>
>

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Thursday, October 10, 2019 7:22 PM, Jean Louis  wrote:

> > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
> > don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
> > appropriate mailing list.
>
> I don't mind.
>
> Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix pages.

This is what they actually said: "GNU is not fulfilling its mission when the 
behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we want to reach out to."

Which is true, and the funny thing is, it's true by your own admission as well. 
You said that people attacked RMS for his statement. What is that if not 
alienation?
I've seen people publicly state that they'll cancel their membership and donate 
to Conservancy instead of FSF.
And there is this thread by a free software developer who helped draft GPLv3 
[1].

As far as I can tell, you have not disproven those statements, so I can only 
conclude that you either were not aware of them, which would mean that you did 
not actually look into the problem as deeply as you would want us to believe, 
or that you were aware of them, but dismissed them as insignificant, which 
would reflect badly on your value system.

And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to get into 
free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people defend him 
from any criticism.

Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he 
founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have final 
say in everything.

ps.: sorry for writing this on the devel list, but there is so much vitriol 
against the core devs here already that I felt like I had to counterbalance it.

[1]: https://pleroma.site/notice/9nh9bWH6RbrQinMp1M

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

Jean Louis  wrote:
> How are you?

Ehm...  Fine.  What is the occasion to ask?

> On October 10, 2019 12:39:00 PM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>>Did you move it offlist intentionally?  If not, may I resend it back?
>
> Me for sure not intentionally and Guix managers are anyway conducting 
> censorship... So no big deal.

I suppose, they are not in position to censor gnu-system-disc...@gnu.org.

> You can resend what you wish. I am not forbidding two-way free speech.

Done.

Wow!  Ease off a bit!
>
> No need. I am not feeling fear when I state something. So they did not ease 
> with thru FUD and defamation on Guix pages on GNU.org domain, so why MD or 
> others should be silenced? No need.
>
You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of GNU.  
And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to GNU 
project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave.
>
> I [] see absolutely no problem there.

I’m afraid, Dr. Stallman would see.

> And free software can be freely used? So what is the loss?

The loss is hidden behind the question, I suggested you to think on: “What the 
point of dubbing some free program an official GNU package nowadays?  Why such 
thing as GNU software still exists at all, when impulse it gave 35 years ago 
was successful and free software is not rare anymore?”

>>I do not see how it can be harmful for Guix.
>
> Their only loss is for them to lose other 10 dollars donation, that is 
> possible reason for their hostile take over attempt.

> What is point in backstabbing of RMS? I asked and never got answers but FUD.

To get rid of him, of course.  Why to ask for obvious answer?

>>I do not see how it can be harmful for Guix.  Not to say, that you are also 
>>urging to oust, at least, Guile and GnuPG.
>
> No, not at all. I am asking people to behave according to GNU kind 
> communication guidelines.

Many of your letters contain a footer with a call for lead developers of Guix, 
Guile and GnuPG to leave GNU.  Even if your claim that Guix depends on FSF 
financially is true, GPG is for sure self-sufficient.

>>Of course, it up to them, and I hope they have enough respect for GNU and RMS 
>>heritage not to follow you strong advice.
>
> They have no respect for RMS.

I hope, that you have, though.  And thus will stop to tear down the project he 
founded.


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Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Problem is that such statements shall be valid all including for those who 
created defamatory statements on Guix.GNU.org

Guix shall be hartass-free, but it is not, it is outrageous!

Jean

https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html

On October 10, 2019 8:23:11 PM UTC, Svante Signell  
wrote:
>On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 19:22 +, Jean Louis wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If
>> > you don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which
>> > is the appropriate mailing list.
>> 
>> I don't mind.
>
>Sorry Jean Louis, I was addressing Ludovic, not you. I saw that you
>already sent some stuff to gnu-system-discuss, have to read that now.
>But, please calm down and don't require people to step down. Things has
>to be discussed with sensibility in mind, not creating useless flame
>wars.
>
>Thanks!

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Svante Signell]

On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 19:22 +, Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> 
> > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If
> > you don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which
> > is the appropriate mailing list.
> 
> I don't mind.

Sorry Jean Louis, I was addressing Ludovic, not you. I saw that you
already sent some stuff to gnu-system-discuss, have to read that now.
But, please calm down and don't require people to step down. Things has
to be discussed with sensibility in mind, not creating useless flame
wars.

Thanks!

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

How are you?

On October 10, 2019 12:39:00 PM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Did you move it offlist intentionally?  If not, may I resend it back?

Me for sure not intentionally and Guix managers are anyway conducting 
censorship... So no big deal.

You can resend what you wish. I am not forbidding two-way free speech.

>>>Wow!  Ease off a bit!

No need. I am not feeling fear when I state something. So they did not ease 
with thru FUD and defamation on Guix pages on GNU.org domain, so why MD or 
others should be silenced? No need.

>>>You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
>>>GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage
>to
>>>GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave. 

I don't see absolutely no problem there. And they also not. Their strategy is 
clear that they want their own community where thought police is to punish 
thought crime. So I let them be. 

Their behavior does not fit into GNU kind communication guidelines.

And free software can be freely used? So what is the loss? Their only loss is 
for them to lose other 10 dollars donation, that is possible reason for 
their hostile take over attempt.


>>>all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
>>>ended in Guix out of GNU.  

I am last person to convince on that as I am aware of their FUD and harm they 
do to Guix, GNU and RMS. Convince others.

>What the point of dubbing some free program an official GNU package
>nowadays? 

What is point in backstabbing of RMS? I asked and never got answers but FUD.

>I do not see how it can be harmful for Guix.  Not to say, that you are
>also urging to oust, at least, Guile and GnuPG.

No, not at all. I am asking people to behave according to GNU kind 
communication guidelines. And if they don't like it to step down and make their 
own platform for their FUD. But using GNU.org domain to defame and harass RMS 
is disaster for future.

>Of course, it up to them, and I hope they have enough respect for GNU
>and RMS heritage not to follow you strong advice.

They have no respect for RMS. 

Jean Louis

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

It is not harmful if Guix remains free software, how it can be?

It is only harmful for Guix.

It was not my decision, it is theirs.


On October 10, 2019 11:39:42 AM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jean Louis  wrote:
>> * Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-09 23:13]:
>> - and then within that group there is now a hostile takeover group of
>people starting with Ludovic Courtès and his "fellows" where none of
>them could answer my email to provide me with the facts about their
>statement. They are behaving against established implicit and explicit
>GNU guidelines, and so far nobody from FSF is enforcing any policy
>against them. They are danger to GNU project.
>>
>> My solution would be radical and simple: ask them to refrain damaging
>GNU project, or fork their software, and expell them from GNU project.
>>
>> AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
>
>Wow!  Ease off a bit!
>
>You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
>GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to
>GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave.  Even if you
>believe that forking software over political discord is good thing to
>do (despite it does not align well with the rest of your message), by
>all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
>ended in Guix out of GNU.  So it even more harmful than urging RMS to
>leave.  After all, RMS is mortal and, alas, will leave us and GNU
>sooner or later, while Guix is not necessary.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

>Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
>don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
>appropriate mailing list.

I don't mind.

Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix pages. 
I have told my concerns to them privately and on chat before sending it to 
mailing list. Would they provide facts, I would refrain.

Obviously the thought police is afraid and must silence defenders of RMS and 
his works.

So why is it problem to address the same on the Guix making list?

Is it maybe double standard?

Jean Louis
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Adam Pribyl]

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019, Jan wrote:


On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 10:19:28 +0200
"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)"  wrote:


On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 10:59:41PM -0300, Wilson Bustos wrote:

Which 'behavior' are you exactly talking about?


Perhaps
https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88

Thank you, GNU maintainers, for your statement.

Regards,
Florian



I would like to note a lot of articles on the Internet purposely
misquote Stallman. For example this header from your link:
"Renowned MIT Scientist Defends Epstein: Victims Were ‘Entirely
Willing’".
He didn't defend Epstein, he had actually called him a "serial rapist"
earlier, also in the mail he didn't say "victims", note the plural. He
also said the victim could be *presented* to Minsky as entirely willing,
he didn't say she actually was. Language is a really subtle tool and
small things like this can make a big change.

So please, be careful, when reading those articles and judge wisely,
especially because the situation is a really delicate matter.

I also found the link to arguments defending Stallman:
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

I don't really know what should I think about all of this, but it
would be a bit unjust if Stallman didn't have any defense, even if he
made a mistake.


Hope I won't get excluded from the project, because of my opinion,
Jan






I have to second this. I've read the full RMS mails the day they were 
published and was disgusted what media did with this conversation. In this 
case I do not agree with the Guix statement 
joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project...


Adam Pribyl

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

Did you move it offlist intentionally?  If not, may I resend it back?

Jean Louis  wrote:
> On October 10, 2019 11:39:42 AM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>>Jean Louis  wrote:
>>> * Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-09 23:13]:
>>> - and then within that group there is now a hostile takeover group of
>>people starting with Ludovic Courtès and his "fellows" where none of
>>them could answer my email to provide me with the facts about their
>>statement. They are behaving against established implicit and explicit
>>GNU guidelines, and so far nobody from FSF is enforcing any policy
>>against them. They are danger to GNU project.
>>>
>>> My solution would be radical and simple: ask them to refrain damaging
>>GNU project, or fork their software, and expell them from GNU project.
>>>
>>> AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

Have you noticed, that your MUA produces quoting mess in attempt to hardwrap 
lines while being unable to do that properly?  As there is actually no point in 
hardwrapping lines, you’d better just disable it rather than trying to fix.

>>Wow!  Ease off a bit!
>>
>>You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
>>GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to
>>GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave.  Even if you
>>believe that forking software over political discord is good thing to
>>do (despite it does not align well with the rest of your message), by
>>all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
>>ended in Guix out of GNU.  So it even more harmful than urging RMS to
>>leave.  After all, RMS is mortal and, alas, will leave us and GNU
>>sooner or later, while Guix is not necessary.
>
> It is not harmful if Guix remains free software, how it can be?

What the point of dubbing some free program an official GNU package nowadays?  
In other words, why such thing as GNU software still exists at all, when 
impulse it gave 35 years ago was successful and free software is not rare 
anymore?

> It is only harmful for Guix.

I do not see how it can be harmful for Guix.  Not to say, that you are also 
urging to oust, at least, Guile and GnuPG.

> It was not my decision, it is theirs.

Of course, it up to them, and I hope they have enough respect for GNU and RMS 
heritage not to follow you strong advice.


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Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Svante Signell]

On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 16:29 +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Hi Jean-Louis,

> You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
> collect hatred messages against me.
> 
> I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
> propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if
> you don’t stop by yourself.
> 
> Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.
> 
> My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing
> this.  :-(

Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
appropriate mailing list.

Thanks!

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

I have no hate against you and never had. Observe the log. You stated with 
defamation and FUD, not me.

Your censorship policy is already well known. So block, I don't mind.

You are not answering with facts but bringing more and more fear, uncertainty, 
and doubts into your own space and destroying GNU project, exactly what you 
said in the statement. Media has picked you up and perverted your statements 
due you too man generalizations and lack of facts and specifics. 

My pagd is not against your free speech but your disrespect and defamation on 
GNU.org domain. I would not care that much if you would have been doing it 
outside if GNU.org website on your private page. 

Guix got a donation of 100,000 dollars from FSF and that is RMS and RMS 
supporters creation. That you use the same GNU project which finances and 
supports Guix to defame and slander RMS without facts is lack of integrity, and 
it was not me who started it

Next time think before you do. So whinning will not bring you anywher but 
having balls. What you did to RMS is something you are experiencing right now. 
I am sorry for you, but you asked for it. 

Numerous people have published their pages yoo, I have not asked them anything, 
so please you arr getting what you asked for. You started with FUD, face what 
is happening.

 I have no intention to disturb Guix mailing list. I would support Guix even if 
it left in its own space of creation of free software and humanitarian rights 
in that subject. That is what I would do while having such string emotional 
impressions like statement signers got about RMS. 

And that what you did and how you harmed RMS by using his support is unspoken. 

I am protesting for space that you used for your personal grievances, obviously 
something you allow only to you and few companions who are defaming RMS without 
facts.

You don't allow me to use Guix resources to ask you for facts, right? But you 
like using Guix blog for defamation of RMS? Mamma mia.

You never answered my private email and chat to you, right? Would you, I would 
not ask you in public. Just have balls, as RMS has got the balls, endure it and 
be happy.

Wish you good night,
Jean Louis

On October 10, 2019 2:29:08 PM UTC, "Ludovic Courtès"  wrote:
>Hi Jean-Louis,
>
>Jean Louis  skribis:
>
>> * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>>> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
>>> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep
>disrupting
>>> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>>
>> I cannot expect anything else from you.
>
>You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
>collect hatred messages against me.
>
>I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
>propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if you
>don’t stop by yourself.
>
>Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.
>
>My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this. 
>:-(
>
>Thanks,
>Ludo’.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Stefan Huchler]

Ludovic Courtès  writes:

> Hi Jean-Louis,
>
> Jean Louis  skribis:
>
>> * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>>> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
>>> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
>>> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>>
>> I cannot expect anything else from you.
>
> You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
> collect hatred messages against me.
>
> I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
> propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if you
> don’t stop by yourself.
>
> Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.
>
> My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this.  :-(
>
> Thanks,
> Ludo’.

And why are you not on moderation for posting horrible things against
Richard Stallman on a gnu website where he is the leader of the Gnu
Project?

Yes the other guy maybe spams here a bit the malinig list, but the
website read much more people than the mailing list, so you spammed the
internet much more.

It's also not about disagreement, he made clearly the point that he is
fine with your opinion about RMS, he is just not ok with you posting it
on a domain that you don't process. And imply that this is the opinion
of the guix project while there was never a vote on this here.

Is Guix a political Project now? If not why did you post political
statements on that website? So you hurt that project with that move
obviously, how do you justify that?

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Stefan Huchler]

> Wow!  Ease off a bit!
>
> You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
> GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to
> GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave.  Even if you
> believe that forking software over political discord is good thing to
> do (despite it does not align well with the rest of your message), by
> all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
> ended in Guix out of GNU.  So it even more harmful than urging RMS to
> leave.  After all, RMS is mortal and, alas, will leave us and GNU
> sooner or later, while Guix is not necessary.

I am a Lisp developer mostly Elisp and a Nixos User and have on one
Machine Guix system installed, I believe in Free Software yet I don't
get how on the Guix Website a Article against RMS could be posted and
despite some issues with Nixos partly because of technical reasons but
more so of ideological reasons feel not welcome in the Guix community to
phrase it mildly.

That some devs in a team have different oppinions is one thing but that
they post it on the guix.gnu.org website really puts me off
completely. When that stands on that website, everybody implicitly that
works for that project also stands for that if they want to or not.

That are my opinions I at least have not written a bug report or feature
request here because of that incident and likely more feedback including
some code that could have come in the future from me stands in question.

So surely seperately fork one small linux distro over that is maybe not
very clever, but maybe the FSF should be forked and then yes maybe it's
nessesary to have more forks of projects, when the differences become to
big.

Many similar projects exist because 1 uses GPL and one uses BSD, so if
peopl want a GPL + SJW Edition implicit or explicit in some cases:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/you-cant-open-source-license-morality/

I also don't trust people that can't logically think or cite people
correctly and attack people on strawman arguments on writing good code.

But I don't know your internal processes inside GNU, but I can only say
that for (at least some) outsiders like me it all looks like a big red
flag.

My 2 cents.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:29:08 +0200
Ludovic Courtès  wrote:

> My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing
> this.  :-(

After initial enthusiasm, the CoC issue and the reaction to the GNU
Kind Communications Guideline already convinced me that I should better
keep a fair bit of distance. Thus I don't even want to belong to Guix
people, but I'm still an observer. Not that anyone should care.

I don't get what made you guys start Guix as GNU project, if you have
such an issue with Stallman (which I do understand)?

The timing of the announcement makes you appear to join ranks
with people who are repeating lies. If one can't keep a few quotes
straight, I'm not inclined to believe the rest that's harder to
evaluate. It also makes it look like kicking a man when he's already
down.

Then having it on a GNU domain and posting the announcement to a list
where the matter should not be discussed is ... at least
unwise, if not disingenious.

So I have some sympathy with Jean Louis, as silly as the idea of Guix
being anything without you is.


-- 
Thorsten Wilms 

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[ng0]

Oi.
Shut up and get another audience for your monologue theater act.
I am no longer involved in guix that much, but your trash keeps
piling up in my inbox.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Mikhail Kryshen]

I'm deeply disappointed to see this.  I always thought that the free
software community have strong and independent culture, and it's very
sad to see GNU maintainers, for whose work I have great respect, fall
for the moral panic that is being spread by news and social media (it is
in the interests of the media to promote moral panics as it increases
user engagement and gives them even more power to manipulate the
public).  This leads to dissolution of the free software culture and its
ethical values with the influence of media and corporations that are
hostile towards software freedom.  And you demonstrated that this
influence is real by letting a slanderous media campaign provoke you
into action (even if you are not acting merely upon the false
accusations by the media and have some valid reasons for doing this, you
are still acting in the wake of that campaign and under the influence of
it).

Ludovic Courtès  writes:

> Hello Guix!
>
> We, a group of GNU maintainers sharing a vision for a stronger GNU
> Project, are publishing this statement today:
>
>   https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
>
> We are somewhat abusing the Guix blog here, for lack of a better place,
> but OTOH the future of GNU is obviously relevant to Guix.  (Ricardo and
> I started this initiative before Tobias, Maxim, and Marius were
> on-board.)
>
> This mailing list is maybe not the best place to discuss this in detail
> but your local GNU maintainers will surely be happy to answer any
> questions you may have.  :-)
>
> Ludo’.

-- 
Mikhail


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Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

Jean Louis  wrote:
> * Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-09 23:13]:
> - and then within that group there is now a hostile takeover group of people 
> starting with Ludovic Courtès and his "fellows" where none of them could 
> answer my email to provide me with the facts about their statement. They are 
> behaving against established implicit and explicit GNU guidelines, and so far 
> nobody from FSF is enforcing any policy against them. They are danger to GNU 
> project.
>
> My solution would be radical and simple: ask them to refrain damaging GNU 
> project, or fork their software, and expell them from GNU project.
>
> AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

Wow!  Ease off a bit!

You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of GNU.  And 
I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to GNU project, than 
urging Guix lead developers to leave.  Even if you believe that forking 
software over political discord is good thing to do (despite it does not align 
well with the rest of your message), by all means, you would not able to 
outcompete them, so it would simply ended in Guix out of GNU.  So it even more 
harmful than urging RMS to leave.  After all, RMS is mortal and, alas, will 
leave us and GNU sooner or later, while Guix is not necessary.


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Re: 'core-updates' Q4 2019

[Mathieu Othacehe]

Hey Ludo,

> Mathieu, I guess you can go ahead and rename ‘core-updates-next’ to
> ‘core-updates’ if nobody’s done it yet.

Done! We have a new core-updates branch open.

Mathieu

Re: i686-linux GCC package on x86_64

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi,

Pierre Neidhardt  skribis:

> Yes, this is what I had tried.  Sadly it works for all packages that I know of
> except GCC.  Maybe a bug?

Oh, there may be confusion as to which GCC you’re targeting.  That is,
the #:system argument is presumably passed to the “leaf” GCC, but not to
the ones that appear in (gnu packages commencement).

This would need closer investigation, for example by printing the value
of (package-arguments p) for ‘p’ in each of the GCCs you’re interested in.

(Of course this is left as an exercise to the reader.  :-))

HTH,
Ludo’.

Re: Towards reproducibly Jupyter notebooks with Guix-Jupyter

[Ludovic Courtès]

Roel Janssen  skribis:

> The animated GIFs are really useful!  If I understand this correctly,
> the Guix Jupyter kernel allows one to use multiple (completely
> distinct) environments in a single Notebook.  So, mix Python, R and
> Scheme in a single notebook.  That's pretty neat!

I’ve just learned that  supports
“polyglot” notebooks as well, though I don’t know how it works.

Ludo’.

Overhauling the cargo-build-system

[Efraim Flashner]

I've spent a lot of time over the past few months hacking at packaging
rust crates. I've found it time-consuming, soothing and, ultimately,
likely a waste of time. When we started with the cargo-build-system the
premise was 'packages are both libraries and source, we need them in
source form to build the next library in the chain' and the example was
our first three rust- packages, rust-quote, rust-syn and
rust-proc-macro2, all three of which depend on the other two.

I'd like to challenge the assumption that packages are both libraries
and source. A 'library' in rust compiles into one of three types: a
static library (libfoo.a), a shared library (libfoo.so), or a
'rust-library' (libfoo.rlib). A 'rust library', an rlib file, is like a
shared library but with rust-specific metadata. I haven't looked into
what exactly that means, but I can tell you practically how it works.
Through some in depth searching online it seems it is possible to
pre-compile rlibs and link them to a final binary, but it is not
possible to link an rlib to another rlib. What this means is currently
we have $(guix package -A ^rust- | wc -l) ~> 192 rust libraries packaged
that no one will ever use in any form EXCEPT as source inputs for a
future library or binary.

Let me repeat that. We have 192 rust packages that no one needs or
wants, except in source form.

We have a couple of packages/variables which are defined in source-form
only. We normally see them as inputs or native inputs as
("foo" ,(origin  This is basically what we have with the rust
packages. Upstream to build a binary they call 'cargo build' and it
downloads the sources of the dependent libraries, and some of their
dependants based on the use-case, compiles them, and then compiles the
binary. In Guix, when we eventually have packaged enough libraries to
get to a target binary, we'll be pulling in hundreds of extra libraries
(transitive inputs of inputs) so a few dozen can be compiled.

PROPOSAL:
Change all the rust packages we have now to be source-only. Rename them
from rust-foo to rust-foo-src or rust-src-foo. The package 'alacritty'
is perhaps not a great example choice, but it's Cargo.lock file, which
describes the dependencies and their versions, lists 278 dependencies.
(Generally you can care only about the major and minor part of the
version.) It's package definition would explicitly list the 278
dependent libraries it wanted so they could be put in the 'guix-vendor'
directory like now. It makes for a very large package definition, but we
wouldn't have to ensure thousands of other rust libraries built so we
can throw away the results and build alacritty in the end. Another
package, starship, would have 124 rust dependencies, but I'm betting
there's a fair amount of overlap between them.

Since we never actually use the output of any of the rust packages we
currently have it doesn't really make sense to 'build them' per se as we
currently do.

$ tree $(guix build rust-proc-macro2)
/gnu/store/jjinj0dvvzqnlpn9li3nxcyrpv1fbbfp-rust-proc-macro2-0.4.30
`-- share
`-- doc
 `-- rust-proc-macro2-0.4.30
 |-- LICENSE-APACHE
 `-- LICENSE-MIT

My plan is to hack on the cargo-build-system on a separate branch and
see if I can pull all of this together.

-- 
Efraim Flashner  אפרים פלשנר
GPG key = A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D  14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351
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Re: Towards reproducibly Jupyter notebooks with Guix-Jupyter

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi Konrad!

Konrad Hinsen  skribis:

> This looks very good, even though I will probably have to rework my
> reproducible-research-tutorial-with-guix tutorial now ;-)

Heheh.  :-)

> I haven't looked at this yet in any detail, but I wonder how you deal
> with Jupyter pluging (e.g. widgets). For reproducibility, they ought to
> be taken from the notebook's specific environment, rather than from the
> environment from which Jupyter and the Guix kernel are taken. But this
> looks difficult to do, given Jupyter's messy architecture.

It’s an area that needs more testing, as they say.  ;-)

That reminds me of an interesting issue regarding
bitwise-reproducibility that was raised on the Reproducible Builds
mailing list:

  
https://lists.reproducible-builds.org/pipermail/rb-general/2019-September/001657.html

> It would be nice in fact to adapt the ideas behind Guix-Jupyter (and
> perhaps parts of the code) to Org-mode. Some integration with Emacs will
> be necessary to tell Org-mode to start Python etc. from the Guix
> environment.

I’d love to see that happen!  I thought perhaps we could trick Alex Kost
or Pierre Neidhardt to hack on that, let’s see.  :-)

Thanks for your feedback,
Ludo’.

Re: 'core-updates' Q4 2019

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi!

Mathieu Othacehe  skribis:

>> To prevent this work from rotting away, I propose that we start the
>> branch as early as next month.  With luck, users will be able to
>> cross-compile Guix System for arbitrary toys come December ;-)
>>
>> Thoughts?

Let’s do that!

> Seems like a good plan :)

Mathieu, I guess you can go ahead and rename ‘core-updates-next’ to
‘core-updates’ if nobody’s done it yet.

Let’s get the ball rolling!

Ludo’.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi Jean-Louis,

Jean Louis  skribis:

> * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
>> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
>> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>
> I cannot expect anything else from you.

You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
collect hatred messages against me.

I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if you
don’t stop by yourself.

Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.

My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this.  :-(

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: 'staging' branch is OPEN

[Efraim Flashner]

On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 09:29:05PM +0200, Marius Bakke wrote:
> Guix,
> 
> Now that 'core-updates' is merged (\o/), it's time to restart the
> regular 'staging' cycles.
> 
> Please push your patches before Monday, October 14th.  After that the
> branch will be 'frozen' and hopefully merged some days later barring
> regressions.

Now I have to decide whether to bump qt to 5.12.5 or up to 5.13.1 ...


-- 
Efraim Flashner  אפרים פלשנר
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Re: i686-linux GCC package on x86_64

[Pierre Neidhardt]

Hi Ludo,

Yes, this is what I had tried.  Sadly it works for all packages that I know of
except GCC.  Maybe a bug?


-- 
Pierre Neidhardt
https://ambrevar.xyz/


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Re: DE

[Timothy Sample]

Hello,

guixest  writes:

> I understand the process you explained. Btw, when is the next batch coming?

Marius suggested that we start working on it soon and try to finish it
in December:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2019-10/msg00108.html


-- Tim

Re: Towards reproducibly Jupyter notebooks with Guix-Jupyter

[Ludovic Courtès]

Howdy!

Roel Janssen  skribis:

> The animated GIFs are really useful!  If I understand this correctly,
> the Guix Jupyter kernel allows one to use multiple (completely
> distinct) environments in a single Notebook.  So, mix Python, R and
> Scheme in a single notebook.  That's pretty neat!

Yes, I think it’s pretty fun.  :-)

In practice, I guess most users just need a single kernel, but there are
probably cases where mixing kernels can be useful.

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: Towards reproducibly Jupyter notebooks with Guix-Jupyter

[Konrad Hinsen]

Hi Ludo and Simon,

Ludovic Courtès  writes:

> I’m happy to announce the first release of Guix-Jupyter!

This looks very good, even though I will probably have to rework my
reproducible-research-tutorial-with-guix tutorial now ;-)

I haven't looked at this yet in any detail, but I wonder how you deal
with Jupyter pluging (e.g. widgets). For reproducibility, they ought to
be taken from the notebook's specific environment, rather than from the
environment from which Jupyter and the Guix kernel are taken. But this
looks difficult to do, given Jupyter's messy architecture.


zimoun  writes:

> To me, it is very funny that all the folks find Jupyter amazing when
> it is a worse version of Org-mode (troll troll) ;-)

Yes and no. Org-mode doesn't have anything close to Jupyter's widgets.
But otherwise, I agree.

It would be nice in fact to adapt the ideas behind Guix-Jupyter (and
perhaps parts of the code) to Org-mode. Some integration with Emacs will
be necessary to tell Org-mode to start Python etc. from the Guix
environment.

> Is the UI ;;guix aligned with the CLI UI ($ guix)?

I actually wonder which way the alignment should be done - the current
guix CLI is a bit of a mess already.

Cheers,
  Konrad.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[František Kučera]

Dne 10. 10. 19 v 5:45 Jean Louis napsal(a):
> * Ludovic Courtès  [2019-10-07 17:41]:
>> Hi František, and welcome,
>>
>> (I’m willing to answer questions like I wrote, but if we are to have a
>> more in-depth conversation, I think we should not abuse guix-devel for
>> that.)
> Now is too late, you are the one who abused Guix, and you should step
> down and resign from Guix. You are the one who is bringing hatred and
> separation in community.

I basically agree with you, but I do not like the „Call-out culture“ (or
„cancel culture“).

People do mistakes, it is natural, nobody is perfect and nobody is liked
by all other people. It is much better to fix the mistakes we do rather
than remove people. In this particular case, the fix is quite simple:
remove that proclamation from the official Guix blog.

You will never find a 100% agreement with another person in all
opinions. But it's important to have a consensus in the area you want to
work with. I probably[1] have different opinion on abortions than RMS
but it is totally irrelevant. I want to cooperate with him (and others)
in the field of free software – thus the opinions on free software is
what really matters – such opinions are relevant (not opinions about
sex, politics, religion etc.).

We should not escalate these conflicts because it causes damages to all
of us. We should calm down and think what our common goals are. For me,
it is the free software 
defined by the four essential freedoms. **And until we can share the
code under a free software license and make the world better through
creating such free software and providing it to the public, I will call
that cooperation successful.** Regardless we might have different
opinions on other topics.

As I stated in my blog post :

People are different and have various opinions on various topics. But
the pure free software ideas are a common interest which leads people
from different groups and with different backgrounds to cooperation and
shows them the way how to talk each other and eventually build a
friendly and respectful community. It is much better than if people from
different groups stay in their own bunkers and just bark at each other.

Franta

[1] honestly, I have not studied his arguments in depth; I am not
interested in such discussion; and it would be probably also
local-specific (I do not live in the USA)

Re: Towards reproducibly Jupyter notebooks with Guix-Jupyter

[Roel Janssen]

On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 10:21 +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Hello Guix!
> 
> I’m happy to announce the first release of Guix-Jupyter!
> 
>   
> https://hpc.guix.info/blog/2019/10/towards-reproducible-jupyter-notebooks/
> 
> Guix-Jupyter is a Jupyter “kernel” that is able to interpret
> annotations
> describing the environment in which notebook cells will be executed.
> The end goal is to be able to regard notebooks as pure functions.
> 
> The code is here:
> 
>   https://gitlab.inria.fr/guix-hpc/guix-kernel
> 
> I presented it minutes ago at JCAD, a conference gathering French HPC
> practitioners, and where many talks happen to talk about Jupyter.  :-
> )
> 
>   https://jcad2019.sciencesconf.org/resource/page/id/6
> 
> Feedback welcome!
> 
> Ludo’.

The animated GIFs are really useful!  If I understand this correctly,
the Guix Jupyter kernel allows one to use multiple (completely
distinct) environments in a single Notebook.  So, mix Python, R and
Scheme in a single notebook.  That's pretty neat!

Kind regards,
Roel Janssen

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Hartmut Goebel  [2019-10-10 10:43]:
> Am 10.10.19 um 05:57 schrieb Jean Louis:
> > Ludo, please step down from GNU project […]
> >
> > Obviously, there are people who don't trust you.
> 
> No reasons for any of the signers to step back. There are always some
> guys who don't trust others.*)

That is for me lack of integrity. If I come to your house, I will
never expel you, I must be respectful.

It is lack of respect. They like donations and support from RMS and
now they wish to take over GNU project and that "all people trust
them".

Hundreds of RMS supportie comments in last days clearly tell that
Ludovick and company will never have "trust of all people", in fact
they will never have trust from majority.

Jean

I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering Dr. Richard Stallman
to step down and resign, to do their software hacking somewhere else,
as they do not deserve funding that RMS is giving them. Ludovic
Courtès, Ricardo Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault,
Carlos O'Donell, Andy Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard,
Ian Lance Taylor, Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber,
Jan Nieuwenhuizen, John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen
Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej
Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John W. Eaton, please RESIGN and step down
from GNU projects, disassociate yourself or find another house for
your excessive and uncontrollable fear of the free speech. Do not
spread fear, uncertainty and doubt on GNU.ORG project pages.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html
https://fsforce.noblogs.org/
https://backtotheaugust.org/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or 
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU

Re: Towards reproducibly Jupyter notebooks with Guix-Jupyter

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello!

(And hi! Pierre-Antoine.  :-))

zimoun  skribis:

> Congrats for these piece of work!
> To me, it is very funny that all the folks find Jupyter amazing when
> it is a worse version of Org-mode (troll troll) ;-)
> One example of many others, the Notebook are not human readable (I
> mean, I am not fluent in JSON reading.)
> Well, the hype will always appear to me weird.

I’m very much into hype so I won’t comment.  :-)

> Is the UI ;;guix aligned with the CLI UI ($ guix)?
> For example ;;guix environment R <- r-foo
> instead of guix environment --ad-hoc r r-foo --pure (or something like that)
> Or ;;guix pin 
> instead of guix pull --commit= (or something like that)
> It should be confusing.

I think it’s fine to have a simplified interface.  After all, it’s not a
CLI, and it has a more focused goal.  Also, I was thinking that
eventually we might be able to use Jupyter widgets here and there
instead of text, though I’m not sure what that could look like.

> Why not add a kind of ;;guix pack at the end of the Notebook to
> generate a container image, for example Docker.
> Then the student can just run this Docker wherever they wants.

That’s a very good idea!  We’d need to think about what that entails,
but it sounds like a great feature for the 0.2.0.  :-)

Thanks for your feedback and ideas!

Ludo’.

Re: Ricardo, here is kind question to provide facts on your statements about RMS

[Jean Louis]

* Hartmut Goebel  [2019-10-10 10:26]:
> Am 10.10.19 um 06:30 schrieb Jean Louis:
> > They want take over, obviously, so they said. 
> […]
> > They are indirectly asking for money. GNU project is about money,
> 
> Both of these are allegation missing any backing.

Oh, is that a principle that allegation shall have a backing? I like
it.

How about you ask them to provide backing for their own defamatory
statement?

I did ask.

Jean

Re: Matt, here is kind question to provide facts on your statements about RMS - that statement caused this discussion

[Hartmut Goebel]

Am 09.10.19 um 22:39 schrieb František Kučera:
> Dne 09. 10. 19 v 19:06 P napsal(a):
>> Stop spamming the list. Thanks.
>>
> If you did not want to start this discussion, you should not have
> posted that statement on the official Guix blog. You could expect what
> it would do.

"P" is not one of the "you". (Neither am I.) Thus your argument is void.

-- 
Regards
Hartmut Goebel

| Hartmut Goebel  | h.goe...@crazy-compilers.com   |
| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |

Re: GNU Guix maintainer collective expands

[Dimakakos Dimos]

Thanks for all your past, present and future hard work to all new and
older maintainers!
This is great news!

Re: Towards reproducibly Jupyter notebooks with Guix-Jupyter

[zimoun]

Hi Ludo and Pierre-Antoine,

Congrats for these piece of work!
To me, it is very funny that all the folks find Jupyter amazing when
it is a worse version of Org-mode (troll troll) ;-)
One example of many others, the Notebook are not human readable (I
mean, I am not fluent in JSON reading.)
Well, the hype will always appear to me weird.
Whatever!

I will give a try.
Just two random thoughts.

Is the UI ;;guix aligned with the CLI UI ($ guix)?
For example ;;guix environment R <- r-foo
instead of guix environment --ad-hoc r r-foo --pure (or something like that)
Or ;;guix pin 
instead of guix pull --commit= (or something like that)
It should be confusing.

Why not use the same syntax for ;;guix than for $ guix?


People enjoy Jupyter Notebook because they are "portable".
Some friends use them as Numercial Lab in class. And the students can
replay the lab at home, tweak some cells and see what happens. Or they
sometimes provide a Notebook backbone with some cells missing and the
students have to complete them as homework.
So the "pip install" and "conda" way is easy because it works (almost)
out-the-box in these cases. On Windows, Mac.
Yes, we are not talking about Reproducible Science in this case. But
one ring to rull them all. :-)

Why not add a kind of ;;guix pack at the end of the Notebook to
generate a container image, for example Docker.
Then the student can just run this Docker wherever they wants.


Thank you for all this work!

All the best,
simon

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Hartmut Goebel]

Am 10.10.19 um 05:57 schrieb Jean Louis:
> Ludo, please step down from GNU project […]
>
> Obviously, there are people who don't trust you.


No reasons for any of the signers to step back. There are always some
guys who don't trust others.*)

Beside this I wonder what is you legitimization of demanding Ludo to
step back?! I' can' remember your being part of GNU Guix, are you?


*) Side note: This is like Fascists all over here in Europe argue: They
demand to be "the people", but they are a minority. It's just that they
are loud and aggressive. Not saying your are a Fascist, though, but the
pattern is the same.

-- 
Regards
Hartmut Goebel

| Hartmut Goebel  | h.goe...@crazy-compilers.com   |
| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |

Re: GNU Guix maintainer collective expands

[L p R n d n]

Hello,

Ludovic Courtès  writes:

> Hello Guix!
>
> Ricardo Wurmus and I are thrilled to announce that Marius Bakke, Maxim
> Cournoyer, and Tobias Geerinckx-Rice are joining us in maintaining Guix!
> Read more about this change and about maintaining Guix at:
>
>   https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/gnu-guix-maintainer-collective-expands/
>
> This is probably an opportunity to think about ways in which we can
> improve our processes, and everyone’s input is very much welcome!
>
> Big thanks and a warm welcome to you Marius, Maxim, and Tobias!
>
> Ludo’.


Congratulation everybody! It's good news for sure!

Have a lovely day,

L  p r n  d n

Re: Ricardo, here is kind question to provide facts on your statements about RMS

[Hartmut Goebel]

Am 10.10.19 um 06:30 schrieb Jean Louis:
> They want take over, obviously, so they said. 
[…]
> They are indirectly asking for money. GNU project is about money,

Both of these are allegation missing any backing.

I strongly suggest you stop attacking the persons on a personal level,
but instead to deal with their arguments. But I also ask you to discuss
this somewhere else since I'm not interested in this mud-slinging.
Otherwise I need to blacklist you.


-- 
Regards
Hartmut Goebel

| Hartmut Goebel  | h.goe...@crazy-compilers.com   |
| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |

Towards reproducibly Jupyter notebooks with Guix-Jupyter

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello Guix!

I’m happy to announce the first release of Guix-Jupyter!

  https://hpc.guix.info/blog/2019/10/towards-reproducible-jupyter-notebooks/

Guix-Jupyter is a Jupyter “kernel” that is able to interpret annotations
describing the environment in which notebook cells will be executed.
The end goal is to be able to regard notebooks as pure functions.

The code is here:

  https://gitlab.inria.fr/guix-hpc/guix-kernel

I presented it minutes ago at JCAD, a conference gathering French HPC
practitioners, and where many talks happen to talk about Jupyter.  :-)

  https://jcad2019.sciencesconf.org/resource/page/id/6

Feedback welcome!

Ludo’.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Ricardo, here is kind question to provide facts on your statements about RMS

[Jean Louis]

* Svante Signell  [2019-10-09 19:19]:
> Dear Guix, and other people signing that statement.
> cc: RMS
> 
> I do also have problems with your campaign against RMS. Publishing such
> a statement as a blog entry for Guix is very inappropriate. Especially
> in the context of the recent defaming campaign on him personally on
> social media, making him to leave FSF and MIT. What do you really want
> to achieve??
> 
> If you have something serious to report against RMS, do so publicly and
> address RMS himself, for him to respond. Or address him directly, not
> by stating things in a blog nobody could ever respond to.

Thank you for support to GNU and RMS now when he needs it so
much. Hundreds and hundreds of people are already expressing their
support on various social media channels, even YouTube (beware
proprietary Javascript), various forums and GNU/Linux distribution
maintainers.

Jean Louis

Signature:

I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering Dr. Richard Stallman
to step down and resign, to do their software hacking somewhere else,
as they do not deserve funding that RMS is giving them. Ludovic
Courtès, Ricardo Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault,
Carlos O'Donell, Andy Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard,
Ian Lance Taylor, Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber,
Jan Nieuwenhuizen, John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen
Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej
Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John W. Eaton, please RESIGN and step down
from GNU projects, disassociate yourself or find another house for
your excessive and uncontrollable fear of the free speech. Do not
spread fear, uncertainty and doubt on GNU.ORG project pages.

Facts and more facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html
https://fsforce.noblogs.org/
https://backtotheaugust.org/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or 
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU