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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Adele de Maisieres
Sent: Sat 9/15/2007 12:54 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] middle ages: braies for women?
Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:
Astrida: Là, en un selier, fist entrer, oultre son gré et par force, ladicte
Perrete la Souplice, et la
answer the ses braies
translation question based on how it's currently written.
Astrida
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Adele de Maisieres
Sent: Sat 9/15/2007 12:54 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] middle ages: braies for women?
Zuzana
Melanie,
Late Iron age.. basically contemporaneous with Late Roman Empire.
The best in English about these is in
Hald, Margrethe. Ancient Danish Textiles from
Bogs and Burials: A Comparative Study of Costume
and Iron Age Textiles. [Copenhagen]: National
Museum of Denmark, 1980. ISBN:
On Sep 13, 2007, at 11:46 AM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:
I recently looked through a (not yet published) costume book of one
of my friends which tells about clothing in the western Europe
around the 13th and 14th centuries. It is divided into chapters,
each for one specific garment (like
On Sep 13, 2007, at 3:50 PM, Schaeffer, Astrida wrote:
As it happens I'm working on a book too, only pesky life keeps
getting in the way of completion. Sigh.
Anyway, I -DID- run across a rape trial account where the man was
convicted because he'd had to pull the girl's braies down
February. Du Berry Hours
http://www.christusrex.org/www2/berry/DB-f2v.jpg
http://www.christusrex.org/www2/berry/DB-f2v-d3l.jpg
But the man next to the woman not wearing any underwear isn't wearing any
either, so does that support men not wearing brais?
-Original Message-
Greetings!
Heather: In addition to the battle-for-the-pants genre, there are other images
commonly circulated in the historic costuming community as evidence
for medieval women wearing underpants that -- when examined more
closely -- are using the underpants as a symbol or representation of
women
I'd say that it wouldn't be very surprising if a man didn't always wear braies,
if he had a long tunic on. The Scottish, as far as I know, didn't wear any as
well. But I remember I recently read a text where someone criticized the
Scottish for having no braies - he regarded it a sort of a
On Sep 14, 2007, at 4:03 AM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:
It is surely interesting to think logically about such a problem,
but, just as you say, we can never rely on it, and, as we all know,
people didn't always act very logically and didn't choose the most
comfortable garments they could.
Anyway, I -DID- run across a rape trial account where the man was
convicted because he'd had to pull the girl's braies down before he
could do the deed. Had there been no braies, her status as
an innocent
in the proceedings would have been in question.
I'd be very interested in more
On Sep 14, 2007, at 6:06 AM, Melanie Schuessler wrote:
On Sep 14, 2007, at 4:03 AM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:
It is surely interesting to think logically about such a problem,
but, just as you say, we can never rely on it, and, as we all
know, people didn't always act very logically and
otsisto wrote:
February. Du Berry Hours
http://www.christusrex.org/www2/berry/DB-f2v.jpg
http://www.christusrex.org/www2/berry/DB-f2v-d3l.jpg
But the man next to the woman not wearing any underwear isn't wearing any
either, so does that support men not wearing brais?
I'm going to have to go
**
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Schaeffer, Astrida
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 9:52 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: RE: [h-cost] middle ages: braies for women?
Anyway, I -DID- run across a rape trial account where the man
Astrida: Là, en un selier, fist entrer, oultre son gré et par force, ladicte
Perrete la Souplice, et la
jeta à terre, et avala ses braies, et se mist sus lui, et s'efforça contre sa
nature tant
comme il pot...
(Tanon, 88)
Have you ever thought that et avala ses braies might also mean his, not
I do not wish to imply that all women in all
European cultures in all times wore some sort of
pants under their dresses, but do wish to point
out a few items still existing that no one has mentioned
The leather bikinis (late Roman time period)
found in London and on display at the Museum of
On Sep 14, 2007, at 4:41 PM, Beth and Bob Matney wrote:
The Frauenhose von Dätgen, Kr. Rendsburg. Abb. 184-190 (text
pp78-79) published in
Schlabow, Karl. Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland.
Gottinger Schriften zur Vor- und Frugeschichte, Bd. 15. Neumunster:
K. Wachholtz,
On Sep 14, 2007, at 1:41 PM, Beth and Bob Matney wrote:
I do not wish to imply that all women in all European cultures in
all times wore some sort of pants under their dresses, but do wish
to point out a few items still existing that no one has mentioned
The leather bikinis (late Roman
On Sep 14, 2007, at 1:03 AM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:
Heather: In addition to the battle-for-the-pants genre, there are
other images
commonly circulated in the historic costuming community as evidence
for medieval women wearing underpants that -- when examined more
closely -- are using the
Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:
Astrida: Là, en un selier, fist entrer, oultre son gré et par force, ladicte
Perrete la Souplice, et la
jeta à terre, et avala ses braies, et se mist sus lui, et s'efforça contre sa
nature tant
comme il pot...
(Tanon, 88)
Have you ever thought that et avala ses braies
The author said nothing and it looked like he was thinking it was a general practice for women to wear such underclothes.
Well, the first thing I'd do, since it's a friend's book, is ask him
what his source is.
Dawn
___
h-costume mailing list
**
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Audrey Bergeron-Morin
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] middle ages: braies for women?
Another question that has something in common
Do please try to go back and find out the source! In our group we
always say we don't know what women wore under their dresses, because
we haven't found any naughty pictures from the period. But I for one
often wear braies just for warmth. You don't necessarily need braies to
wear hose or
Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:
Another question that has something in common with the first one is: Would women wear chausses under the skirt when it was winter? If yes, it would be logic that they needed braies to tie the chausses to something.
As far as I know, women wore hose under their
Heather Rose Jones will probably chime in on this one if she sees it -- she
gave a presentation on exactly this issue at Kalamazoo a couple of years ago
(and has just submitted a paper version for a future _Medieval Clothing and
Textiles_).
Basically, what I think she winds up saying is that
- Original Message -
From: Zuzana Kraemerova [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well, in a chapter about women's underwear, I found a picture of a woman
wearing something like male braies, and another picture depicting a woman
with a garment that looked like today's pants or knickers. It was redrawn,
Well, if I
remember right, all history of underwear books tell you what a scandal
it was when (was it catherine de medici?) in the 16th century started
to wear drawers, inspired by the eastern countries. Then, it was
actually the 19th century when drawers became common and were no sign
of
- Original Message -
From: Chris Laning [EMAIL PROTECTED]
... Basically, what I think she winds up saying is that virtually all the
pictorial examples of women wearing braies in medieval Western Europe turn
out to fit into one of two themes: (1) mythical women such as the Amazon
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of E House
Sent: Thu 9/13/2007 6:35 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] middle ages: braies for women?
- Original Message -
From: Chris Laning [EMAIL PROTECTED]
... Basically, what I think she winds up saying is that virtually
after
a while.
Nope. Wore something on my legs after that.
Brangwyne
Subject: RE: [h-cost] middle ages: braies for women?
As it happens I'm working on a book too, only pesky life keeps getting in
the way of completion. Sigh.
Anyway, I -DID- run across a rape trial account where the man
Hating braies as I do (they're just so uncomfortable...) I'm fine with
there being no evidence for women wearing them. :o)
That said, that's the point really - there isn't any evidence - what there
is that I'm aware of is questionable for one reason or another.
Plus it may have
Schaeffer, Astrida wrote:
As it happens I'm working on a book too, only pesky life keeps getting in the
way of completion. Sigh.
Anyway, I -DID- run across a rape trial account where the man was convicted
because he'd had to pull the girl's braies down before he could do the deed.
Had there
Susan Carroll-Clark wrote:
Actually, I've seen a couple of illuminations (that go with the
warming oneself by the fire motif that is often seen for the month
of January or February (forget which) in medieval calendars that tend
to support the no underpants theory.
Why? Well, it was
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