[h-cost] medieval embroidery
Once again, I am passing along the the link for one of the obscure but potentially interesting books sold by Michael Shamansky: http://www.artbooks.com/wc.dll?AB~emailReview~&itemno=108051&custno=12840 Janet ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery .....Some Books I found helpful on the subject
Too bad Walmart won't ship their books out of the USA. They advertise great prices on some books. Brin Kendall Melody Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: HI, There is a small publication from (of all places) Dover Press, the people who make all those small craft-y books. I bought one called " Charted Peasant Designs from Saxon Transylvania". The front part of the book has a 3 page introduction to the contents of the items included, as well as photograhs of actual pieces . There is also a bibliography and a map to show where the stiches and designs originated and travel to Transylvania and the time element. He talkes aboutt he earlier work of the 12 th century Saxon women "precision of stitch,alike on both sides of the linen in pattern and clearness.' (snipped) --Robin == Robin Netherton Editor, Medieval Clothing and Textiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (314) 439-1222 // fax: (314) 439-1666 Life is just a bowl of queries. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery .....Some Books I found helpful on the subject
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, Melody Watts wrote: >I bought one called " Charted Peasant Designs from Saxon > Transylvania". ... >He talkes aboutt he earlier work of the 12 th century Saxon women > "precision of stitch,alike on both sides of the linen in pattern and > clearness.' I've seen this -- a long time ago. He doesn't happen to give a source for that comment, does he? (So many of the older books reprinted by Dover do not.) Without a primary citation, it's only hearsay, I fear, but with it, very very helpful indeed. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery .....Some Books I found helpful on the subject
HI, There is a small publication from (of all places) Dover Press, the people who make all those small craft-y books. I bought one called " Charted Peasant Designs from Saxon Transylvania". The front part of the book has a 3 page introduction to the contents of the items included, as well as photograhs of actual pieces . There is also a bibliography and a map to show where the stiches and designs originated and travel to Transylvania and the time element. He talkes aboutt he earlier work of the 12 th century Saxon women "precision of stitch,alike on both sides of the linen in pattern and clearness.' It's a nice little book, the author is Heinz Edgar Kiewe , costs $5.95 , Dover 0-486-23425-8 and I got mine thru Wal-marts online book store Also available from the same Dover books people are "Blackwork Embriodery" by Elizabeth Gedded and Moyra McNeill Dover 0-486-2324-5-x and "Blackwork" by Mary Gostelow Dover Needlework Series 0-486-40178-2 . Both books have brief histories of the work and Photos of art work showing Blackwork and extant pieces ,museum and private collections. they are all inexpensive book ,have nice photos and actual chartes for the stiches. They maybe 'Kindergarten" books for what you need, but they are worth the look Melody Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I am not an embroiderer, and my knowledge of medeival embroidery is skeletal -- enough to recognize situations in which it occurs, and to know when to go to others with a question. This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished looking on both the right and "wrong" side, and thus suited to things like cuff and collar edges that might be turned out. So, questions: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use of such a "two right sides" technique to a medieval artifact? Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be blackwork. Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400. Many, many thanks, as always, to the wonderfully helpful people on this list. I am always amazed by the breadth of knowledge represented here. --Robin == Robin Netherton Editor, Medieval Clothing and Textiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (314) 439-1222 // fax: (314) 439-1666 Life is just a bowl of queries. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
That would be another string altogether. "Let's try embroidered cuff." On 5/6/07, Lynn Roth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have a question regarding Blackwork. How do you embroider on a cuff? If you make a chemise and want to do blackwork on a cuff whats the best wa y to do it? Lynn -- Aspasia Moonwind ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
You have a cuff pattern is, right? So you trace it onto the fabric, then cut around it, big enough to let you work it in your embrodery frame or hoop. When you're finished, cut out only the pattern shape. (This saves you from cutting up the actual work.) MaggiRos --- Lynn Roth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a question regarding Blackwork. How do you > embroider on a cuff? If you make a chemise and want > to do blackwork on a cuff whats the best wa y to do > it? = ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
lots of fun embroidery discussion that I missed because I'm not online over the weekend snipped for length, sigh :): > Monochrome embroidery is actually considerably older than the 1400s... Sue, any insights into embroidery meant to be seen from both sides, as on cuffs or collars? That's the real issue here -- how early that concept might apply. --Robin > Blackwork is my thing. I taught it back at the Known World Art/Sci > Symposium in Orlando where you taught the Gothic fitted gown a few > years ago. It is more correctly known as "monochrome embroidery" and > was mentioned by Chaucer in Canterbury Tales. Chaucer mentions her > collar with blackwork inside and outside. I'm aware of this reference -- it comes up a lot in discussions of 14th c. embroidery -- and I always pictured something like blackwork when I heard it, as it is black silk embroidery on a white smock, described as being all around the collar. But I'm wondering if that's the right interpretation of the following line, which indicates that the embroidery is "withinne and eek withoute." I can't think of a better way to read it, but smocks in this period were not designed to show outside the dress, and did not have necklines that could be turned outward -- that I know of -- to show the inside. Anyone have a better reading? --Robin > Robin, If you are needing 14th C the best references I can think of are Chaucer and the Mamluk embroidery. There is a new article on Mamluk work by Kathleen Staples in the newest issue of Sampler and Antigue Needlework Quarterly (http://www.just-crossstitch.com/sanq.htm). I just got it this weekend but have not read it yet. If I see something that might help I will drop you a line. And unfortunately the best argument I can think of against what it looks like you are trying to find are the fashion elements themselves of this era, reversible chemise cuffs or necklines don't spring to mind. Perhaps finding documentation for elements that would showcase reversible embroidery is another path to try. Catherine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
I have a question regarding Blackwork. How do you embroider on a cuff? If you make a chemise and want to do blackwork on a cuff whats the best wa y to do it? Lynn Bonnie Booker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Blackwork is my thing. I taught it back at the Known World Art/Sci Symposium in Orlando where you taught the Gothic fitted gown a few years ago. It is more correctly known as "monochrome embroidery" and was mentioned by Chaucer in Canterbury Tales. Chaucer mentions her collar with blackwork inside and outside. It was also sited in Viking Embroidery. There technically are no limits to stitches used. However, what most people think of is the 16th century designs made popular by the Holbein paintings, therefore the Hobein stitch. To see if something could have been done doublesided take graph paper and follow the design with a pencil. If you can do it, even with drawing back over the design with the pencil without lifting the pencil off the paper it can be done double sided. Look for designs on artifacts that can be done this way. Then check with the museums to see if they can tell you if it is done that way. That is the best I can offer you. I work mostly with duplicating designs. > > I am not an embroiderer, and my knowledge of medeival embroidery is > skeletal -- enough to recognize situations in which it occurs, and to know > when to go to others with a question. > > This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's > working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation > of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on > both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like > something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished > looking on both the right and "wrong" side, and thus suited to things like > cuff and collar edges that might be turned out. > > So, questions: > > 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? > Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? > Of one kind of border designs usually used on undergarments and tunic edges. > 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern > examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a > technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in > different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in > particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about > 1400. > Many, with many different stitches, in many different countries, including Persia. > 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use > of such a "two right sides" technique to a medieval artifact? Not "two right sides" but the back side looks as good as the front. > Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of > such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be > blackwork. > > Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique > from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400. -- Aspasia Moonwind ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
I may have missed something, I just did a cursory look (and my copy is titled "The ARt of Embroidery," but the most common title is "Pictorial History of Embroidery" or "Das Stieckerwerk"), but ... Until the 16th century, the only garments in Schuette are Ecclestical (Copes, Dalmaticas, Chasubles, Orphreys, etc.) and they're not designed to be reversible. I can't say none of the 16th century garments are designed to be seen on both sides, but none of them look like it, and none of them are chemises/shifts/shirts -- they're jackets, night caps, coifs, etc. susan It's entirely possible I've got the wrong book in mind, since my copy was destroyed several years ago. I know there's one that has secular embroidered garments way earlier than the 16th century. Melusine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sun, 6 May 2007, Bonnie Booker wrote: > Blackwork is my thing. I taught it back at the Known World Art/Sci > Symposium in Orlando where you taught the Gothic fitted gown a few > years ago. It is more correctly known as "monochrome embroidery" and > was mentioned by Chaucer in Canterbury Tales. Chaucer mentions her > collar with blackwork inside and outside. I'm aware of this reference -- it comes up a lot in discussions of 14th c. embroidery -- and I always pictured something like blackwork when I heard it, as it is black silk embroidery on a white smock, described as being all around the collar. But I'm wondering if that's the right interpretation of the following line, which indicates that the embroidery is "withinne and eek withoute." I can't think of a better way to read it, but smocks in this period were not designed to show outside the dress, and did not have necklines that could be turned outward -- that I know of -- to show the inside. Anyone have a better reading? --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Quoting Carmen Beaudry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: *snip* The book you're looking for is "History of Western Embroidery" by Shuette. I think I've got that right, if I don't, please someone correct me. Good luck trying to find it, though. It's been out of print for ages, the copy I owned fell victim to a friend's bad divorce and was destroyed, and my local library's copy has been stolen. I may have missed something, I just did a cursory look (and my copy is titled "The ARt of Embroidery," but the most common title is "Pictorial History of Embroidery" or "Das Stieckerwerk"), but ... Until the 16th century, the only garments in Schuette are Ecclestical (Copes, Dalmaticas, Chasubles, Orphreys, etc.) and they're not designed to be reversible. I can't say none of the 16th century garments are designed to be seen on both sides, but none of them look like it, and none of them are chemises/shifts/shirts -- they're jackets, night caps, coifs, etc. susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Here's one piece I know is reversible. Queen Jane's cuffs. Unfortunately somewhat later than 1400. http://www.elizabethancostume.net/blackwork/seymour.html http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/jane-notes.html MaggiRos --- Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Sat, 5 May 2007, otsisto wrote: > > This is the sort of thing I'm looking for -- I don't > need a reference to > blackwork specifically, but rather to any reversible > front/back technique > that can be documented to c. 1400. Preferably > England. > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On May 5, 2007, at 4:11 PM, Robin Netherton wrote: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? Hi, Robin! Some, but NOT all, historical blackwork is reversible (same on both sides). The idea that ALL blackwork is supposed to be completely reversible is an artifact of the 20th century embroidery revival. 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. I know there is also a tradition of Japanese silk embroidery that is identical on both sides, but I don't know how old that is. And probably not relevant :) 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use of such a "two right sides" technique to a medieval artifact? IIRC, most of the evidence that it existed is from paintings, which as we all know, may or may not represent reality accurately. I'll e-mail you off list with more info OChris Laning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sun, 06 May 2007 01:11:52 +0200, Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished looking on both the right and "wrong" side, and thus suited to things like cuff and collar edges that might be turned out. It sounds like you are describing darning stitch or weaveseam. An example of weaveseam embroidery front; http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/images/vines05.jpg Back; http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/images/backside.jpg For extant examples in books ; *Traditional Icelandic embroidery, Elsa E. Gudjonson *Att datera textiler, Margareta Nockert & Göran Possnert (mention of a 13th C norwegian weaveseam embroidery as oldest extant in Norway.Also of a swedish extant weaveseam embroidery dated between 1320 and 1440. Another norwegian example is dated between 1440 and 1620). *Embroideries and samplers from Islamic egypt, marianne Ellis *Medeltida vävnader och broderier i Sverige, Agnes Brandting and Andreas Lindholm *Prydnadssömmar under medeltiden, Anne marie Franzén *Embroiderers, medieval craftsmen. Kay Staniland (p.63, german 15th C towel shown pattern front and the reverse pattern on the back). If you need relevant sections translated, let me know. There are examples of illustrations which shows what might either be weaveseam embroidery or possibly a woven pattern from the early 15thC. The stitch was quite popular long before then and there are more than enough extant examples from the 13th C and onwards. Gunvor - "Jeg har sagt ja og nei og DA får du lov" Anders (nesten 4 år) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
The closest that I can think of, would be this book (one of my faves): "Embroideries ans Samplers from Islamic Egypt" by Marianne Ellis. (Ashmolean Museum, University of Oxford, 2001). ISBN: 1-85444-135-3 (for the paperback version). It's an examination of embroidered textiles, most of which (they think) were used for clothing and light furnishings, and examples range from the Tulunid period (late 9th century) through the Mamluk period (up to 1517). There are a fair number of pieces containing surface embroidery stitches (split stitch, chain stitch, stem stitch, cross stitch, etc.), but a significant number of the pieces comprise some form of monochrome embroidery--double-running stitch, pattern darning, pulled-thread and drawn-thread work, etc. There's a rather nice sampler, for instance, which has been carbon-dated to the 14th century, and which was done in blue silk (and plain linen) threads on linen, and uses double-running stitches and drawn-thread work. There's also a fragment of something they're assuming was part of a towel border, and it's done in blue silk, using double-running stitch. (a repeating pattern of birds, late 14th-early 15th century). There are also a couple of pieces clearly meant to be shirts/tunics, but the embroidery is being used on the sleeves, body, etc., and not so much on collar and cuffs. It's clearly not an examination of European textiles and embroidery, but the author does go to some effort to point out stylistic connections between these bits and later European usage. (Theory being that these Islamic-based styles and techniques spread into Europe on trade routes.) --Sue - Original Message - From: "Robin Netherton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:02 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery > > On Sat, 5 May 2007, Susan B. Farmer wrote: > > > There are lots of examples from this period both in English and > > Italian art where the collar/cuffs are embroidered with the > > implication that both sides will be seen -- more can be forthcoming if > > you need additional examples. I don't know what the earliest such > > example is, though. > > I've sent my contact the images already cited as proof-of-concept for > Tudor period, and the information posted here that there were stitches > that could be reversible. That's a good start, but for publication > purposes she needs a published source on the stitch types for that period > (as seen in real examples); is there a book that examines historic > stitching with close regard to period, e.g. not just saying "this stitch > is medieval" but rather "these stitches appear in X type of artifacts from > Y time and Z place"? > > Holy grail here would be examples of embroidery from c. 1400 clearly meant > to be viewed on the reverse. Possibly not available, though. Extant pieces > from 1400 are a lot rarer than from 1550. > > But it's not my area so I don't know all the standard sources the way I do > in my own specialties. > > --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sun, 6 May 2007, Sue Clemenger wrote: > Monochrome embroidery is actually considerably older than the 1400s... Sue, any insights into embroidery meant to be seen from both sides, as on cuffs or collars? That's the real issue here -- how early that concept might apply. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Blackwork is my thing. I taught it back at the Known World Art/Sci Symposium in Orlando where you taught the Gothic fitted gown a few years ago. It is more correctly known as "monochrome embroidery" and was mentioned by Chaucer in Canterbury Tales. Chaucer mentions her collar with blackwork inside and outside. It was also sited in Viking Embroidery. There technically are no limits to stitches used. However, what most people think of is the 16th century designs made popular by the Holbein paintings, therefore the Hobein stitch. To see if something could have been done doublesided take graph paper and follow the design with a pencil. If you can do it, even with drawing back over the design with the pencil without lifting the pencil off the paper it can be done double sided. Look for designs on artifacts that can be done this way. Then check with the museums to see if they can tell you if it is done that way. That is the best I can offer you. I work mostly with duplicating designs. I am not an embroiderer, and my knowledge of medeival embroidery is skeletal -- enough to recognize situations in which it occurs, and to know when to go to others with a question. This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished looking on both the right and "wrong" side, and thus suited to things like cuff and collar edges that might be turned out. So, questions: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? Of one kind of border designs usually used on undergarments and tunic edges. 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. Many, with many different stitches, in many different countries, including Persia. 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use of such a "two right sides" technique to a medieval artifact? Not "two right sides" but the back side looks as good as the front. Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be blackwork. Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400. -- Aspasia Moonwind ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
> So, questions: > > 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of > blackwork? > Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? Some, but not all, blackwork is reversible, and if it is, it is perfectly suited to cuffs and hankies and napkins where both sides will be seen. That said, this ability to be reversible for some patterns may be a happy accident which occurs owing to the combination of the particular pattern and double running stitch. A happy accident that people kept using. I look forward to further responses too. I've often wondered about pre-Tudor blackwork (Spanish work? Blackwork by any other name?) as well. Thanks for bringing this up Robin! :-) Arlys ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
I've sent my contact the images already cited as proof-of-concept for Tudor period, and the information posted here that there were stitches that could be reversible. That's a good start, but for publication purposes she needs a published source on the stitch types for that period (as seen in real examples); is there a book that examines historic stitching with close regard to period, e.g. not just saying "this stitch is medieval" but rather "these stitches appear in X type of artifacts from Y time and Z place"? Holy grail here would be examples of embroidery from c. 1400 clearly meant to be viewed on the reverse. Possibly not available, though. Extant pieces from 1400 are a lot rarer than from 1550. But it's not my area so I don't know all the standard sources the way I do in my own specialties. --Robin The book you're looking for is "History of Western Embroidery" by Shuette. I think I've got that right, if I don't, please someone correct me. Good luck trying to find it, though. It's been out of print for ages, the copy I owned fell victim to a friend's bad divorce and was destroyed, and my local library's copy has been stolen. Melusine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Thanks! :-) Arlys On Sun, 6 May 2007 10:32:04 -0600 "Sue Clemenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Usually done in a form of long-armed cross stitch, as far as I know. > --Sue in Montana > > - Original Message - > From: "Cynthia J Ley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:30 PM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery > > > > > There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as > > > blackwork, but > > > was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples > of > > > that from > > > the 12th cen. (1100's). I'll see what I can dig up. > > > > > > Melusine > > > > It's my understanding that the actual pattern on Assisi (voided) > work is > > done in running stitch (also used in blackwork), but that the > filling > > stitch was cross or some such. Hope someone here fills the void > between > > my ears. ;) > > > > Arlys > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Usually done in a form of long-armed cross stitch, as far as I know. --Sue in Montana - Original Message - From: "Cynthia J Ley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery > > There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as > > blackwork, but > > was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples of > > that from > > the 12th cen. (1100's). I'll see what I can dig up. > > > > Melusine > > It's my understanding that the actual pattern on Assisi (voided) work is > done in running stitch (also used in blackwork), but that the filling > stitch was cross or some such. Hope someone here fills the void between > my ears. ;) > > Arlys ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
There are actually 16th century portraits out there, in which there are clearly two *different* patterns on the two sides of a collar. It's also obvious, from some of the construction details, that collars had both an inside layer of fabric and an outer (I'm avoiding saying "always," of course). There's a boy's shirt from, I think, the 1540's, currently at the V&A, which has a small ruffle extending out from the shirt collar. It's pretty clear that the shirt-edge of the ruffle is enclosed between two layers of collar. I'm guessing that your friend is more likely to find evidence of reversability in the cuffs and ruffles (applied or integral), than in the collars. --Sue - Original Message - From: "Robin Netherton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 6:47 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery > > On Sat, 5 May 2007 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Its appearance at cuffs and collars doesn't have any real relevance to > > the state of the back, as embroidery was done prior to the making up > > of the garment (usually), so that the back of the work would be > > unlikely to be seen. > > That would certainly be the case for, say, a doublet, but for the cuffs or > collars of linen chemises, which are not lined, why would the embroidery > be done in advance, or assumed not to be seen? Chemises in 16th century > paintings are often shown with blackwork embroidery on cuff edges and > collars; presumably the insides of the cuffs would be readily visible, and > collars might be turned out in some cases. > > --Robin > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
The earliest known *dated* sampler is the Bostocke sampler at the V&A, but it's not actually the oldest sampler. There are several in my book "Embroideries and Samplers from Islamic Egypt," and they *all* significantly predate the Bostocke sampler. Which is, nonetheless, one of my favorite pieces in the world ...I pretty much expected beams of light and choirs of angels, when I actually found that sampler in the textile rooms at the V&A. But then, I'm an embroidery geek of long standing! --Sue in Montana - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery > > > > Although with some stitches you can't help making the back nearly as neat as > the front (classics indeed being blackwork and tent stitch, etc), I'm not > aware of any medieval embroidery being made this way on purpose. > > And whether styles like blackwork or asissi work, or several others, very > much depends on your geographical context. > > Its appearance at cuffs and collars doesn't have any real relevance to the > state of the back, as embroidery was done prior to the making up of the garment > (usually), so that the back of the work would be unlikely to be seen. > > As far as I'm aware the neatness of the back of embroidery dates to the > beginnings of samplers - and the earliest known one of these is late 16th century > (I think - the one in the v&a textiles room). > > Both sides same embroidery, where the intention of the work is to have both > sides looking exactly the same is 19th century thing (possibly late 18th??), > that came about for use on things like military standards. It's also > incredibly difficult to do, and one of the banes of my life!!:o) > > > > > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Monochrome embroidery is actually considerably older than the 1400s. There are surviving Islamic examples from long before that date. The earliest European reference to it, that I'm aware of, is a brief description in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, in which a woman's shift is described as having black embroidery on it, but that reference predates known European fragments by quite a while. Most folks tend to call this type of embroidery "blackwork," out of habit, or from the association of this style with the elaborate, usually black, embroideries popular in certain parts of 16th century Europe. It does, however, show up in a number of other colors--blues, reds, gold, green, pink. A more accurate term for it is "monochrome" embroidery, since it's done with a single color. I look at something like Assisi work as a cousin ;o), and there are other forms of embroidery like German whitework, and some of the embroidery done on German and Italian shirts (over the areas that are gathered or "smocked," especially, that are also related. --Sue in Montana, *quite* definitely a monochrome/counted thread embroidery geek - Original Message - From: "Susan B. Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery > To my knowledge -- and blackwork isn't my "thing" -- blackwork is > later than 1400. There are more knowledgeable folks on this list than > I in that respect. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
We're out here, but at least one of us (me) was completely involved in helping with a local SCA event yesterday, and just now getting caught up in the flood of emails! ;o) --Sue - Original Message - From: "Robin Netherton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:56 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery > And here I thought this list would be full of people who who were > obsessive about embroidery history who would have this stuff at their > fingertips. I have no clue what sources are standard on stitch types, > existing artifacts, etc. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
> There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as > blackwork, but > was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples of > that from > the 12th cen. (1100's). I'll see what I can dig up. > > Melusine It's my understanding that the actual pattern on Assisi (voided) work is done in running stitch (also used in blackwork), but that the filling stitch was cross or some such. Hope someone here fills the void between my ears. ;) Arlys ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
In blackwork, double running is the primary stitch, but it's not the stitch which creates the doublesidedness. It's the actual pattern--i.e., how it is executed. Arlys On Sat, 5 May 2007 23:02:40 -0500 (CDT) Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > On Sat, 5 May 2007, Susan B. Farmer wrote: > > > There are lots of examples from this period both in English and > > Italian art where the collar/cuffs are embroidered with the > > implication that both sides will be seen -- more can be > forthcoming if > > you need additional examples. I don't know what the earliest such > > example is, though. > > I've sent my contact the images already cited as proof-of-concept > for > Tudor period, and the information posted here that there were > stitches > that could be reversible. That's a good start, but for publication > purposes she needs a published source on the stitch types for that > period > (as seen in real examples); is there a book that examines historic > stitching with close regard to period, e.g. not just saying "this > stitch > is medieval" but rather "these stitches appear in X type of > artifacts from > Y time and Z place"? > > Holy grail here would be examples of embroidery from c. 1400 clearly > meant > to be viewed on the reverse. Possibly not available, though. Extant > pieces > from 1400 are a lot rarer than from 1550. > > But it's not my area so I don't know all the standard sources the > way I do > in my own specialties. > > --Robin > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sat, 5 May 2007, Susan B. Farmer wrote: > There are lots of examples from this period both in English and > Italian art where the collar/cuffs are embroidered with the > implication that both sides will be seen -- more can be forthcoming if > you need additional examples. I don't know what the earliest such > example is, though. I've sent my contact the images already cited as proof-of-concept for Tudor period, and the information posted here that there were stitches that could be reversible. That's a good start, but for publication purposes she needs a published source on the stitch types for that period (as seen in real examples); is there a book that examines historic stitching with close regard to period, e.g. not just saying "this stitch is medieval" but rather "these stitches appear in X type of artifacts from Y time and Z place"? Holy grail here would be examples of embroidery from c. 1400 clearly meant to be viewed on the reverse. Possibly not available, though. Extant pieces from 1400 are a lot rarer than from 1550. But it's not my area so I don't know all the standard sources the way I do in my own specialties. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Quoting Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Sat, 5 May 2007, Susan B. Farmer wrote: NOw that I can help with. Here's a larger image that I scanned out of Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/english_FairGeraldine-qewuFig239.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/2qtsgn Aha. I have the book, just haven't hunted for images in my own library. (I'm up to my eyes in preparing for my own sessions at K'zoo and am passing on this question as a favor for another presenter -- I can't spend much time doing her work for her, though). Yes, it does look like the embroiderer would have understood that the inside of the cuffs here would be visible. There are lots of examples from this period both in English and Italian art where the collar/cuffs are embroidered with the implication that both sides will be seen -- more can be forthcoming if you need additional examples. I don't know what the earliest such example is, though. susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sat, 5 May 2007, otsisto wrote: > Have you read this woman's article? > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/medievalneedle/assisi.htm No, and I haven't done a Web search, either. Web articles won't be citable for my friend's purposes (an academic paper). I was really hoping that someone here who is already an expert on medieval embroidery would know a book I could point my friend to so she can educate herself and find a useful citation. If that's not the case, she's the one who's going to have to do the hunting; this isn't my project. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sat, 5 May 2007, Susan B. Farmer wrote: > NOw that I can help with. Here's a larger image that I scanned out of > Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked > http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/english_FairGeraldine-qewuFig239.jpg > or > http://tinyurl.com/2qtsgn Aha. I have the book, just haven't hunted for images in my own library. (I'm up to my eyes in preparing for my own sessions at K'zoo and am passing on this question as a favor for another presenter -- I can't spend much time doing her work for her, though). Yes, it does look like the embroiderer would have understood that the inside of the cuffs here would be visible. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sat, 5 May 2007, otsisto wrote: > Perhaps this might work for an example though it is mid 1500s > http://www.tudor-portraits.com/LadyDacre.jpg Yes! Clearly reversible and meant to be seen as such. Proves the principle, just not the period yet... And here I thought this list would be full of people who who were obsessive about embroidery history who would have this stuff at their fingertips. I have no clue what sources are standard on stitch types, existing artifacts, etc. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Have you read this woman's article? http://mywebpages.comcast.net/medievalneedle/assisi.htm ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Perhaps this might work for an example though it is mid 1500s http://www.tudor-portraits.com/LadyDacre.jpg -Original Message- Like this: http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=11&viewmode=1&item=49. 7.32 About 135 years later than the reference I'm tracking, but shows a case in which one might think of making an embroidered edging on a chemise look good both inside and outside. I can't get close enough to her right cuff to see whether it is reversible, though. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Quoting Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Sat, 5 May 2007, Robin Netherton wrote: That would certainly be the case for, say, a doublet, but for the cuffs or collars of linen chemises, which are not lined, why would the embroidery be done in advance, or assumed not to be seen? Chemises in 16th century paintings are often shown with blackwork embroidery on cuff edges and collars; presumably the insides of the cuffs would be readily visible, and collars might be turned out in some cases. Like this: http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=11&viewmode=1&item=49.7.32 About 135 years later than the reference I'm tracking, but shows a case in which one might think of making an embroidered edging on a chemise look good both inside and outside. I can't get close enough to her right cuff to see whether it is reversible, though. NOw that I can help with. Here's a larger image that I scanned out of Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/english_FairGeraldine-qewuFig239.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/2qtsgn Depending on your browser, you may need to click it to see it full sized. susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sat, 5 May 2007, Robin Netherton wrote: > That would certainly be the case for, say, a doublet, but for the cuffs or > collars of linen chemises, which are not lined, why would the embroidery > be done in advance, or assumed not to be seen? Chemises in 16th century > paintings are often shown with blackwork embroidery on cuff edges and > collars; presumably the insides of the cuffs would be readily visible, and > collars might be turned out in some cases. Like this: http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=11&viewmode=1&item=49.7.32 About 135 years later than the reference I'm tracking, but shows a case in which one might think of making an embroidered edging on a chemise look good both inside and outside. I can't get close enough to her right cuff to see whether it is reversible, though. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sat, 5 May 2007 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Its appearance at cuffs and collars doesn't have any real relevance to > the state of the back, as embroidery was done prior to the making up > of the garment (usually), so that the back of the work would be > unlikely to be seen. That would certainly be the case for, say, a doublet, but for the cuffs or collars of linen chemises, which are not lined, why would the embroidery be done in advance, or assumed not to be seen? Chemises in 16th century paintings are often shown with blackwork embroidery on cuff edges and collars; presumably the insides of the cuffs would be readily visible, and collars might be turned out in some cases. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Although with some stitches you can't help making the back nearly as neat as the front (classics indeed being blackwork and tent stitch, etc), I'm not aware of any medieval embroidery being made this way on purpose. And whether styles like blackwork or asissi work, or several others, very much depends on your geographical context. Its appearance at cuffs and collars doesn't have any real relevance to the state of the back, as embroidery was done prior to the making up of the garment (usually), so that the back of the work would be unlikely to be seen. As far as I'm aware the neatness of the back of embroidery dates to the beginnings of samplers - and the earliest known one of these is late 16th century (I think - the one in the v&a textiles room). Both sides same embroidery, where the intention of the work is to have both sides looking exactly the same is 19th century thing (possibly late 18th??), that came about for use on things like military standards. It's also incredibly difficult to do, and one of the banes of my life!!:o) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
At 07:10 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: If it helps, the description we're working with says the decoration is in black silk around the collar of a chemise. Presumably the chemise would be linen but it's not specified. All my friend wants to show that is that the nature of the description points to the decoration being embroidery, rather than (say) a band of applied trim. --Robin It might be easier to document Double Running/Holbein stitch. That always looks the same on both sides and any design stitched in it would be the same on both sides. Just a thought, Genie (Sometimes called Maggie, and rather confused when I'm called what. GRIN) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
At 06:52 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: To my knowledge -- and blackwork isn't my "thing" -- blackwork is later than 1400. There are more knowledgeable folks on this list than I in that respect. susan There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as blackwork, but was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples of that from the 12th cen. (1100's). I'll see what I can dig up. Melusine Yes, it's Italian, named after the town Assisi. It uses Holbein stitch and long-armed cross stitch. My book doesn't have a date. However, I'm not sure how they look on the back. Good luck, Robin Maggie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sat, 5 May 2007, otsisto wrote: > Though not an expert, (note:I'm having a brain fog) I believe that > there are at least 4 embroidery stitches where the embroidery appears > on the front and back. blackwork/Spanish work is one. Montenegrin > crosstitch. Assisi(?) and a fourth that escapes me. (just finished > mowing the lawn in humid weather) I know these were done in the late > 1400s but not sure about earlier. This is the sort of thing I'm looking for -- I don't need a reference to blackwork specifically, but rather to any reversible front/back technique that can be documented to c. 1400. Preferably England. So: Can anyone point me to a good published reference that would solve the need for a footnote to the statement "There were certain types of embroidery that were meant to look good on both front and back of the fabric in 1400"? I felt certain that there wore, and De seems to feel the same, but it's the magical Published Statement that we need. A published reference to an existing artifact would be ideal, or to a description of technique that dates from the period (e.g. not to a 19th-century manual for Assisi-style embroidery). If it helps, the description we're working with says the decoration is in black silk around the collar of a chemise. Presumably the chemise would be linen but it's not specified. All my friend wants to show that is that the nature of the description points to the decoration being embroidery, rather than (say) a band of applied trim. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Assisi work is also called voided work and is not necessarily done in red thread. Blackwork is not necessarily done with black thread. (are we confused yet?) :) -Original Message- To my knowledge -- and blackwork isn't my "thing" -- blackwork is later than 1400. There are more knowledgeable folks on this list than I in that respect. susan There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as blackwork, but was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples of that from the 12th cen. (1100's). I'll see what I can dig up. Melusine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Though not an expert, (note:I'm having a brain fog) I believe that there are at least 4 embroidery stitches where the embroidery appears on the front and back. blackwork/Spanish work is one. Montenegrin crosstitch. Assisi(?) and a fourth that escapes me. (just finished mowing the lawn in humid weather) I know these were done in the late 1400s but not sure about earlier. De -Original Message- This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished looking on both the right and "wrong" side, and thus suited to things like cuff and collar edges that might be turned out. So, questions: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use of such a "two right sides" technique to a medieval artifact? Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be blackwork. Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400. Many, many thanks, as always, to the wonderfully helpful people on this list. I am always amazed by the breadth of knowledge represented here. --Robin == Robin Netherton Editor, Medieval Clothing and Textiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (314) 439-1222 // fax: (314) 439-1666 Life is just a bowl of queries. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
To my knowledge -- and blackwork isn't my "thing" -- blackwork is later than 1400. There are more knowledgeable folks on this list than I in that respect. susan There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as blackwork, but was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples of that from the 12th cen. (1100's). I'll see what I can dig up. Melusine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Quoting Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished looking on both the right and "wrong" side, and thus suited to things like cuff and collar edges that might be turned out. So, questions: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? Blackwork can be reversible -- but it doesn't have to be. 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. To my knowledge -- and blackwork isn't my "thing" -- blackwork is later than 1400. There are more knowledgeable folks on this list than I in that respect. susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
I can't help you but I will be interested in what you find. My friend who is quite good at embroidery always makes fun of mine because it looks horrible on the back (okay, it doesn't always look great on the front side either.) She claims it should look almost as good on the back as one the front...she learned from her Welsh grandma. Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Medieval embroidery
I am not an embroiderer, and my knowledge of medeival embroidery is skeletal -- enough to recognize situations in which it occurs, and to know when to go to others with a question. This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished looking on both the right and "wrong" side, and thus suited to things like cuff and collar edges that might be turned out. So, questions: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use of such a "two right sides" technique to a medieval artifact? Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be blackwork. Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400. Many, many thanks, as always, to the wonderfully helpful people on this list. I am always amazed by the breadth of knowledge represented here. --Robin == Robin Netherton Editor, Medieval Clothing and Textiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (314) 439-1222 // fax: (314) 439-1666 Life is just a bowl of queries. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
