efinnel...@aol.com (Ed Finnell) writes:
Thanks for getting us back on track. We used to drift to old hardware and
microfiche. Now we drift to polymorphism...sign of the times
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#12 Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone
database if nuked
for the fun
In
CAPD5F5q14Cf+DXY3KF7hV7TGqt1S9irb5-EHdBEFJHTd89S=c...@mail.gmail.com,
on 10/18/2011
at 12:29 PM, John Gilmore johnwgilmore0...@gmail.com said:
I would not write a program that had embedded in it the heroic
assumption that a time value was a time value for some current day
(bad) and time
In
capd5f5q2nw-nhit9llsjjlzyokg0av_q-whbywxv09nbwpp...@mail.gmail.com,
on 10/17/2011
at 09:01 PM, John Gilmore johnwgilmore0...@gmail.com said:
I am puzzled by this distinction. In general there is no way to
convert a time value in a date-independent way;
There is a simple way; a raw time
In response to my query Shmuel wrote:
| There is a simple way; a raw time value refers to the current day. It
| is not, of course, suitable for use in files that must be read on a
| different day, but it is perfectly appropriate for use in human
| interfaces. You know this.
I do indeed know
John,
I agree but it#39;s not so cut and dried. When you live and work in two
different time zones. Chicago and Indiana (parts) are in two different zones.
Friends of mine get their signals mixed at times. They have taken to always
specify the local time which works well except the first week
I'm aware that the time/date reply is no longer necessary, and I
certainly blame Microsoft more than DST for its attitude in the
timestamp problem, but I've always said that if you don't like IBM,
try the competition.
I accept Mr. Gilmartin's advice to 'try and accommodate it' as well-
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:06:43 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
In 4e9604fd.50...@ync.net, on 10/12/2011
at 04:22 PM, Rick Fochtman rfocht...@ync.net said:
One of the justifications (?) we had here in Illinois was so that
school children would not be in transit to/from school during
a couple references (internet time zone database)
ICANN rescues time zone database
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/16/icann_rescues_time_zone_database/
http://lxnews.org/2011/10/17/icann-taking-over-olson-db/
Tom Marchant is entirely correct. Arguments for Daylight Time--as in
Eastern Daylight Time, EDT---that play on school children and darkness
are at once specious and disingenuous.
They are nevertheless made because they are judged more
presentable/persuasive than more cogent arguments in which an
In 5673187431278464.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu, on
10/16/2011
at 03:15 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:
It never switch[es].
How do you define switch.
TZ specifies a formula for converting system clock
values to civil time values.
That formula includes start and stop
In 4080858463297668.wa.m42tomibmmainyahoo@bama.ua.edu, on
10/17/2011
at 08:53 AM, Tom Marchant m42tom-ibmm...@yahoo.com said:
I fail to see how.
Think about it.
The argument, if it has indeed been made, is absurd.
The fact that you don't understand it doesn't mean that it is absurd.
Thanks for getting us back on track. We used to drift to old hardware and
microfiche. Now we drift to polymorphism...sign of the times
In a message dated 10/17/2011 9:42:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
l...@garlic.com writes:
a couple references (internet time zone database)
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:11:48 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
on 10/16/2011 at 03:15 PM, Paul Gilmartin said:
It never switch[es].
How do you define switch.
To perform semiannually some particular action which (only) some OSes
require to accommodate the Daylight Time changes, such as
o
In 5428902190334650.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu, on
10/17/2011
at 03:17 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:
To perform
Perhaps I should have asked you to define it.
ITYM TZ=EST5EDT,M3.2.0/02:00:00,M11.1.0/02:00:0
Well, the one I quoted works on the system I'm using it on.
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:21:22 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
on 10/17/2011 at 03:17 PM, Paul Gilmartin said:
To perform
Perhaps I should have asked you to define it.
ITYM TZ=EST5EDT,M3.2.0/02:00:00,M11.1.0/02:00:0
Well, the one I quoted works on the system I'm using it on.
I wrote the
Shmuel wrote:
. . . Specifically, you are testing the conversion of time and date
rather than the conversion of time.
I am puzzled by this distinction. In general there is no way to
convert a time value in a date-independent way; this date dependence
is aggravated when daylight | summer |
John,
He may be using another calendar than Gragorian. I am guessing here.
Ed
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I think Shmuel would have specified that he was thinking about, say,
the Hebrew lunisolar calendar.
For it in its traditional form there is a minor complication. Its day
is divided into 24 hours like that of the Gregorian calendar; but
there are neither minutes nor seconds. Instead each hour is
The local time zone is dependent upon location and date.
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:01 PM, John Gilmore
johnwgilmore0...@gmail.com wrote:
Shmuel wrote:
. . . Specifically, you are testing the conversion of time and date
rather than the conversion of time.
I am puzzled by this distinction.
On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:18:52 -0700, Dale Miller wrote:
I would have to dispute Paul Gilmartin's assertion that a majority
want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise. I don't have
a statistically-valid survey, but in discussing it with other people
through the years, I've encountered a
On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 01:27:18 -0500 Paul Gilmartin wrote:
... It's hard to believe that legislative bodies
in so many countries are similarly clueless and heedless of their
constituents' concerns.
Whoa - hold on there gil !!!.
Drawing a *very* long bow there.
Shane ...
... It's hard to believe that legislative bodies
in so many countries are similarly clueless and heedless of their
constituents' concerns.
Whoa - hold on there gil !!!.
Drawing a *very* long bow there.
I have no idea what Shane means, here.
-
Ted MacNEIL
eamacn...@yahoo.ca
Twitter:
On 16/10/2011 18:06 PM, Shane wrote:
Whoa - hold on there gil !!!. Drawing a *very* long bow there. Shane ...
Now, now, Shane,
Coming from a part of this great land that refuses to recognise some of
the benefits of daylight saving. I remember a holiday in Brisbane
being woken by my 18mth.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ken Brick
On 16/10/2011 18:06 PM, Shane wrote:
Whoa - hold on there gil !!!. Drawing a *very* long bow there. Shane
...
Now, now, Shane,
Coming from a part of this great land that refuses to recognise some
of
http://www.thedailyparker.com/CommentView,guid,bded3439-6019-4389-93a3-29af6597d43a.aspx#commentstart
(For example, in some cases a hospital would record birth times using
Standard Time while the surrounding city was on Daylight Time.)
Sounds like you need to consult with each computer owner.
11:19:30
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
http://www.thedailyparker.com/CommentView,guid,bded3439-6019-4389-93a3-29af6597d43a.aspx#commentstart
(For example, in some cases
In 5858366922818746.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu, on
10/16/2011
at 01:27 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:
And in UNIX (POSIX) the concept of a semiannual change doesn't
exist.
Of course it exists; TZ specifies when to switch.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and
On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:39:24 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
In on 10/16/2011 at 01:27 AM, Paul Gilmartin said:
And in UNIX (POSIX) the concept of a semiannual change doesn't
exist.
Of course it exists; TZ specifies when to switch.
It never switch[es]. TZ specifies a formula for
In 4e9604fd.50...@ync.net, on 10/12/2011
at 04:22 PM, Rick Fochtman rfocht...@ync.net said:
One of the justifications (?) we had here in Illinois was so that
school children would not be in transit to/from school during
darkness hours.
Changing school hours twice a year would solve that.
In
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Conlin, Pete
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 3:51 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
Tom,
snip
Peter
p.s. if I sound
In 2390138243554086.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu, on
10/11/2011
at 10:25 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:
A majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise, and
they find it more convenient to reset their clocks semiannually than
it would be to repaint their
-snip--
A majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise, and
they find it more convenient to reset their clocks semiannually than
it would be to repaint their hours of operation on shop doors
semiannually.
OK, somebody's gotta say it: Chaos feared...Unix -- how will anyone
notice a difference?
--
zMan -- I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email
I would have to dispute Paul Gilmartin's assertion that a majority
want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise. I don't have
a statistically-valid survey, but in discussing it with other people
through the years, I've encountered a few who really like DST. I think
most people
Dale,
Liked your story and some else here on the list had the same IPL issue, but if
I recall correctly it was with RACF.
Ask Rick F. For details.
Ed
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In 7117072478643339.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu, on
10/10/2011
at 09:13 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:
Sounds good in theory, but in practice, the will of the people, wise
or otherwise, prevails. That will can't be overruled by the needs of
IT.
It's not just people in
On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:30:28 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
on 10/10/2011 at 09:13 AM, Paul Gilmartin said:
Sounds good in theory, but in practice, the will of the people, wise
or otherwise, prevails. That will can't be overruled by the needs of
IT.
It's not just people in IT that
On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:25:23 -0500, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
A majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise,
and they find it more convenient to reset their clocks semiannually
Interesting hypothesis. How did you determine that?
--
Tom Marchant
feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:25:23 -0500, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
A majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise,
and they find it more convenient to reset their clocks semiannually
Interesting hypothesis. How did you determine that?
--
Tom
At 09:28 -0500 on 10/10/2011, Paul Gilmartin wrote about Re: Chaos
feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked:
In states such as Colorado which have a constitutional limit on the length
of the legislative session, it's fairly common for the Speaker to order the
Sergeant at Arms to stop
On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:35:36 -0400, Ed Finnell wrote:
Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time.
That could work for locations in the USA. It would be no help at all in
places where the time zone was changed for the benefit of a visiting
foreign dignitary.
--
Tom
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab
For the US. Each country sets it own time zones. In Australia, each state.
Maybe we could get the UN or the Astronomical Union to keep track of time
zones?
lobby
Convert all local schedules, etc. to
Of Chase, John
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 8:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab
For the US. Each country sets it own time zones
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:14:16 -0500, Chase, John wrote:
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab
For the US. Each country sets it own time zones. In Australia, each state.
Maybe we could get the UN or the Astronomical Union to keep track of
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:38:16 -0500, McKown, John wrote:
... Which confused me since this was city government and the court records
were timestamped. And we could not stop processing during the fall back, so
we had 1 hour of duplicate time stamps in court records. Which a defense
lawyer would
you don't want to get called on later
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 10:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Chris Hoelscher choelsc...@humana.com wrote:
I believe that in KY such a court case was brought to the state Supreme Court
and any such laws were ruled invalid and unenforcable
Sorry, which laws? Ones passed during the one minute to midnight? Or
some other
Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of
zMan
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 10:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Chris Hoelscher choelsc...@humana.com wrote:
I believe
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John
Though I agree with you, at my first job - when I implemented OS/VS1
using GMT, I was nearly lynched
by the Production Control people and Programmers. The print outs
(remember them?) all said like: 20
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:38:16 -0500, McKown, John wrote:
... Which confused me since this was city government and the court
records were timestamped. And we
could not stop processing during the fall
John,
It must be nice to have a short time job,
I haven#39;t work those hours in over 40 years.
Ed
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/07/unix_time_zone_database_destroyed/
Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
Developer sued for copyright infringement
...
I hereby call on the industry leaders to help sort this out, Colebourne wrote.
IBM, Oracle, Apple, Google, RedHat I'm
Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time.
In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:23:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
paulgboul...@aim.com writes:
Unix time-zone database is nuked
--
For IBM-MAIN
For the US. Each country sets it own time zones. In Australia, each state.
Maybe we could get the UN or the Astronomical Union to keep track of time zones?
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Ed Finnell efinnel...@aol.com wrote:
Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time.
From what little I understand, it is not really the timezone
information, per se. It was, supposedly, using copyrighted information
for historical timezone information along with methods of determining
the TZ for a given date and place. I'm not into astrology, but true
believers in it are very
: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
From what little I understand, it is not really the timezone
information, per se. It was, supposedly, using copyrighted information
for historical timezone information along with methods of determining
the TZ for a given date and place. I'm
The point is the reference is gone! Zeller's congruence is an algorithmic
establish of date and time but doesn't have all the offsets for each
country.
That's why I was advocating a 'standards group' to step up.
In a message dated 10/8/2011 5:33:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Can't set a standard, but need a log of time zones and what locations
they covered.
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Ed Finnell efinnel...@aol.com wrote:
The point is the reference is gone! Zeller's congruence is an algorithmic
establish of date and time but doesn't have all the offsets for
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